Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Apothecaries bringing back bladeguard, terminators, gravis, outriders/atvs and healing up wounded models (sometimes the equivilent of resing an entire model) is valued far more than just "does it res it's points back?".
It's the difference between a unit becoming ineffective on turn one vs that same unit being fully effective for 3 or 4 turns beyond that.

It's things like having to fight Calgar, with a 2+/4++/6+++, who's halving damage, getting healed up to 6 wounds a turn, and untargetable behind his honourguard (which also come back if you fail to kill them)

Also the 6+ FNP. Makes D2 and D3 weapons a lot less effective against MEQ/Gravis respectively.

There's a nice batrep out there with an Apothecary hanging out with Terminators that was just sick. Tons of firepower hits the Termies, five wounds get past the FNP, so he loses 1 termie and another's at 1 wound.

Marine turn? Apothecary heals the wounded Termie to full, brings another back to life at full health, opponent's entire shooting phase has been nullified.

Three turns of that and just … man.

It was gross.

Wakshaani wrote:
There's a nice batrep out there with an Apothecary hanging out with Terminators that was just sick. Tons of firepower hits the Termies, five wounds get past the FNP, so he loses 1 termie and another's at 1 wound.

Marine turn? Apothecary heals the wounded Termie to full, brings another back to life at full health, opponent's entire shooting phase has been nullified.

Three turns of that and just … man.

It was gross.

What you talking about.. Its garbage tier trash (apart from healing ATV which even the dire dire hards defenders will begrudgingly admit might be a bit much.. ) don't you know ? lol...

Wakshaani wrote:
There's a nice batrep out there with an Apothecary hanging out with Terminators that was just sick. Tons of firepower hits the Termies, five wounds get past the FNP, so he loses 1 termie and another's at 1 wound.

Marine turn? Apothecary heals the wounded Termie to full, brings another back to life at full health, opponent's entire shooting phase has been nullified.

Three turns of that and just … man.

It was gross.

If you can't kill a full squad of termies in a shooting phase and your a shooting army you have a problem. This isn't an argument for the strength of the apothecary as much as the uselessness of one player

I mean by your logic 3 turns of a full opponents shooting without an apothecary would equal 3 dead termies and 3 injured termies so let's call it 4-5 dead termies that leaves around 1800+pts. The apothecary had no impact on the outcome

It's not so easy. I would love to see you try against a Deathwing unit.
2+ (with +1 for SS), 4++/5++, 6+++ and no better wound roll than 4+. Even I agree it's too much (and I play Deathwing). Bonus point for the Ravenwing Apothecary that don't need trasport to zip to their location.

Even if you remove them, the effort is very considerable for something around 350ish points.

My issue however is not with Termy resilience: that's ok. My issue is that those changea combined with the mid board scrimmage and shorter table is too much, all at the same time. The same rules in 8th would have been almost perfect in my opinion.

So ok 4 kastellan robots not uncommen in competative admech lists

At 36 shots a model s6 ap2 ignoring cover so hitting on 4s wounding 4s 3+ sv for the termies 6+++ (rerolling hits because they are always standardly buffed by cawl) is 15W

Now thats just 1 unit and 3/4 of the army is still to shoot
However that won't be necessary because they will use the Mars strat

Which will on average add 17MW to the 15W

Now of course this does underrepresent the actual damage output because any admech player worth their salt would also give them the 6's to hit additional hits and probably +1 to hit

(The apothecary would probably also be dead because 18-27 raiders currently fielded would sniper it off the table but thats an asside)

A unit of 10 BA LC terminators accompanied by a captain will also wipe the squad on the charge.

Now it is true an Sob sisters repentia squad will only kill 4.5 terminators but.... it is only 135 pts and if that was their target your hitting it with more than one squad

Do you want me to list the dirty things tau can do what about a full on guard artillery barrage. Sure each individual plasma russ/manticore/ wyvern might not be effective but a terminator unit should be easy when combined

Hell even ik have the shooting power to wipe 3/4 of a squad and they will follow up in melee

1) it's a pricier unit (30% or more). And you add Cawl, for free?. Then we should add a 5+++ for an Ancient, no?
2) they shoot after the Terminator have got a turn, and potentially a charge. So, not even a guarantee that you can shoot before they achieve something.
3) save is 2+ with a SS, not 3+.

But, you know, it's pointless to discuss with you about the rest of examples, when the arguments you have need to be stretched so much. And btw that's off topic anyway.

We'll see in the next month who's right, rest assured.

1a) Go read the post I was responding to. The argument wasn't about pt for pt cost comparisons and efficiency for units (im not arguing terminators are not efficient at surviving) the original stated argument was that a "shooting army" would fire its whole army and only kill one or two terminators allowing an apothecary to heal and res the unit to full each turn" It also should be pricier it is better than terminators in a lot of ways.

Cawl + kastelan robots are standard admech combinations that wipe a squad as are the other unit combinations they already exist in those armies which is a pretty standard shooting army. (I mean if you'd rather i did the math on the breacher hoard i probably could that would also probably do the job but i would have to run the math to be sure).

1b)Cawl isnt free he is almost always in that army to judge units without the buffs they would get does not reflect their in game ability. feel free to add the 5++ although I would never take one myself but if you do it doesn't change the maths noticeably. The unit is still wiped by 1/4 of your opponent's army that leaves 3/4 wiggleroom even if one model survived which odds on it won't a far cry from the originally stated 5W that a full shooting army would deal. Cawl isnt just buffing that unit he's also buffing the rest of the shooting units probably breachers.

2) your terminators may well punch a screen your terminators do not get to the robots vs a competent admech player not unless your playing a BA style list where your whole army is Melee and even then your gonna be spending a turn or two chopping first even if they do they have a good chance of taking more that 5w through MW as they reflect MW not to mention overwatch.

3) the save is 3+ you factor in AP of the gun

2+ base +1 is a functional 1+ Ap2 reduces to a 3+ and cover doesn't matter as the phospor weapons ignore it

Which part of my argument is stretched. It has pretty conclusively proven the original argument that you can only kill 1 or 2 terminators wrong.