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I was curious what everyone else considers the best SM chapter. So far it seems that there is a great deal of variation between chapters. It seems for pure offensive shooting power Imperial Fists take the cookie. For melee damage output it is between White Scars and Blood Angels. For flexibility the Ultramarines win out. For defense Iron Fists and Salamanders win out.
What do you think SM chapters are best at? Overall, I think IF are the sleepers waiting to climb back to the top if they get a few minor tweaks.
SMs are no longer the broken lists of old. Lots of chaos and Xenos lists winning tournaments now.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/11/24 23:08:37
I came across an enjoyable youtube video that discusses exactly this topic yesterday, I'll link it here:
As for my opinion? Why, Iron Warriors
My actual opinion, and for loyalists... heck I really don't know. My opinion for the recent SM rules is not educated.
I have a Storm Giants army which is my only space marine army, so I guess my answer is Salamanders for overall best?
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Salamanders being Codex: Eradicators and ATVs/Attack Bikes makes sense they're currently easymode.
Eradicators once GW has sold enough of them ought to go up 10 points a model.
Bedouin Dynasty: 10000 pts
The Silver Lances: 4000 pts
The Custodes Winter Watch 4000 pts
MajorStoffer wrote:
...
Sternguard though, those guys are all about kicking ass. They'd chew bubble gum as well, but bubble gum is heretical. Only tau chew gum.
Honestly, there are only 2 broken units in the SM codex now.
1) Eradicators who need a points increase or become limited to units of 3. They just have way too much firepower for their cost.
2) Plasma Inceptors who do way too much damage for their cost. They need to also go up 5-10pts a model for taking the plasma gun options. (Normal inceptors with bolt weapons are fine)
After aggressors had their firepower cut in half I’m not sure why the bolt gauntlet variant didn’t get a price cut. Also, centurions why keep their price so high when they had so many nerfs?
Overall, some good balance only a few over and under costed units.
broxus wrote: Honestly, there are only 2 broken units in the SM codex now.
1) Eradicators who need a points increase or become limited to units of 3. They just have way too much firepower for their cost.
2) Plasma Inceptors who do way too much damage for their cost. They need to also go up 5-10pts a model for taking the plasma gun options. (Normal inceptors with bolt weapons are fine)
After aggressors had their firepower cut in half I’m not sure why the bolt gauntlet variant didn’t get a price cut. Also, centurions why keep their price so high when they had so many nerfs?
Overall, some good balance only a few over and under costed units.
You really think those are the only two broken units in SM?
Looking at raw stats, maybe. But once you stack on the massive load of rules that Marines get, a lot more units aren't so balanced.
Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne!
ph34r wrote: I came across an enjoyable youtube video that discusses exactly this topic yesterday, I'll link it here:
As for my opinion? Why, Iron Warriors
My actual opinion, and for loyalists... heck I really don't know. My opinion for the recent SM rules is not educated.
I have a Storm Giants army which is my only space marine army, so I guess my answer is Salamanders for overall best?
I saw that video a few days ago as well. It was a very good one indicating all chapter's relative strength and weakness. Base on the chart it offers, Ultramarine and Raven Guard would need more tactical sense and understanding of the game to achieve victory, they require more planning ahead to utilize their "flexibility", Iron Hand , for sure is mainly about using their durability stack up on the right units. Salamander and Imperial Fist would be more about shooting, especially in close range. SW, BA, WS would be more about choppy.
broxus wrote: Honestly, there are only 2 broken units in the SM codex now.
1) Eradicators who need a points increase or become limited to units of 3. They just have way too much firepower for their cost.
2) Plasma Inceptors who do way too much damage for their cost. They need to also go up 5-10pts a model for taking the plasma gun options. (Normal inceptors with bolt weapons are fine)
After aggressors had their firepower cut in half I’m not sure why the bolt gauntlet variant didn’t get a price cut. Also, centurions why keep their price so high when they had so many nerfs?
Overall, some good balance only a few over and under costed units.
Medic. Free multiwound model(atv's...) and other benefits. Atm marine player is silly if he doesn't bring one
broxus wrote: Honestly, there are only 2 broken units in the SM codex now.
1) Eradicators who need a points increase or become limited to units of 3. They just have way too much firepower for their cost.
2) Plasma Inceptors who do way too much damage for their cost. They need to also go up 5-10pts a model for taking the plasma gun options. (Normal inceptors with bolt weapons are fine)
After aggressors had their firepower cut in half I’m not sure why the bolt gauntlet variant didn’t get a price cut. Also, centurions why keep their price so high when they had so many nerfs?
Overall, some good balance only a few over and under costed units.
Medic. Free multiwound model(atv's...) and other benefits. Atm marine player is silly if he doesn't bring one
Don't worry, this looks like a selling strategy. I bet after everyone rushed to buy 9 ATV for their SM army, GW will issue an FAQ change the keyword of ATV into vehicle, while probably remove "core" from it and add 20pts to its cost . So this meta won't last. Then everyone would rush to buy Attack Bikes. After the stock piles of Attack Bike in GW godown has been nearly cleared, BAM, 40pts increase for Attack Bike and 100pts increase for Apothercary
Not sure why anyone thinks the apothecary is broken. You can only really use one in your list and bring back one guy max a turn. Most games they never even come close to getting their points back for me. If you have very expensive and elite Infantry maybe, but it takes all 5 turns of bringing back Intercessors to just break even the models points costs.
Once they remove the ATV interaction they are going to be fine.
broxus wrote: Honestly, there are only 2 broken units in the SM codex now.
1) Eradicators who need a points increase or become limited to units of 3. They just have way too much firepower for their cost.
2) Plasma Inceptors who do way too much damage for their cost. They need to also go up 5-10pts a model for taking the plasma gun options. (Normal inceptors with bolt weapons are fine)
After aggressors had their firepower cut in half I’m not sure why the bolt gauntlet variant didn’t get a price cut. Also, centurions why keep their price so high when they had so many nerfs?
Overall, some good balance only a few over and under costed units.
You really think those are the only two broken units in SM?
Looking at raw stats, maybe. But once you stack on the massive load of rules that Marines get, a lot more units aren't so balanced.
Maybe, but 9th edition was a pretty hard nerf for them. They are not dominant in the tournament scene any longer and will likely grow weaker as more new codexes come out. They have some strong, but I don’t think broken units that every codex/edition has.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/11/25 13:37:47
People are seriously cracking me up about the Apothecary.
Like it was said before, they return one model for a Unit......They bring back an ATV only if you run them in a unit and can run around with their 14" movement.
Apothecary's are just fine and I run heavy infantry and x3 ATVs, but no Apothecary because that 75+ model doesn't impact my list enough to run one.
70% of all statistics are made up on the spot by 64% of the people that produce false statistics 54% of the time that they produce them.
AngryAngel80 wrote: I don't know, when I see awesome rules, I'm like " Baby, your rules looking so fine. Maybe I gotta add you to my first strike battalion eh ? "
broxus wrote: Not sure why anyone thinks the apothecary is broken. You can only really use one in your list and bring back one guy max a turn. Most games they never even come close to getting their points back for me. If you have very expensive and elite Infantry maybe, but it takes all 5 turns of bringing back Intercessors to just break even the models points costs.
Duh. You don't bring intercessors. You bring stuff like aggressors, eradicator and ATV's. Free 80 pts model. That's before other functions he provides.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Da-Rock wrote: People are seriously cracking me up about the Apothecary.
Like it was said before, they return one model for a Unit......They bring back an ATV only if you run them in a unit and can run around with their 14" movement.
Apothecary's are just fine and I run heavy infantry and x3 ATVs, but no Apothecary because that 75+ model doesn't impact my list enough to run one.
Sure. Do I believe you or competive players who playtested the damn thing
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/11/26 07:10:43
I agree them bringing back an ATV is over the top, but that isn’t the apothecary being broken so much as GW allowing the ATV to get rezzed. In regards to Aggressors being brought back, ok if someone is brave enough to run them then good luck. Overall, like i said they are strong, but since they tied to using a stratagem and have a 3” aura they are fine.
Multiples won’t do you any good. I mean seriously are we talking about, they should cost 5-10 points more max? That is far from broken consider it is for an unspammable model that multiples won’t do you any good.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/11/26 14:30:20
honestly the ATV thing isn't even all that great. the rez has got a 3 inch range, if anyone's using it on ATVs their opponent has fethed up. or they're BADLY misusing the ATV .
eaither way someone's not playing right. (ok or they're playing dark angels as IIRC they still get bike apocs)
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/11/27 12:26:13
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
broxus wrote: I agree them bringing back an ATV is over the top, but that isn’t the apothecary being broken so much as GW allowing the ATV to get rezzed. In regards to Aggressors being brought back, ok if someone is brave enough to run them then good luck. Overall, like i said they are strong, but since they tied to using a stratagem and have a 3” aura they are fine.
Multiples won’t do you any good. I mean seriously are we talking about, they should cost 5-10 points more max? That is far from broken consider it is for an unspammable model that multiples won’t do you any good.
The Chief Apothecary is absolutely broken. The 3 Wound heal + Free Rez + FNP Bubble is just absurd for a unit. There is a reason you see this in nearly every single top 4 Space Marine list.
This isn't even a controversial opinion. Player's like Sielgar have said they expected this to be nerfed because it was too strong.
On Topic: White Scars, Dark Angels and Ultramarines look to be the top chapters now according to the recent tier list from Goonhammer. I can say from personal experience that White Scars are absolutely brutal.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/11/27 18:28:05
Not that the Apothecary isn't quite good as is, but you realize as designed he has to fnp save/heal/res maybe 140pts worth of wounds to just break even, let alone be useful to include.
If you don't take the Apothecary you could just take another 100pts of something directly useful and 100pts extra on turn1 is better than 100pts dribbled in over 5 turns and dictated by your opponent's attacks.
I'm just guestimating, but I'm thinking he's tuned about right on the assumption he dies on turn 3 or is only resing intercessors all game. It's when he can res a gravis/bike model every turn for 4-5 turns that it becomes OP.
broxus wrote: Honestly, there are only 2 broken units in the SM codex now.
1) Eradicators who need a points increase or become limited to units of 3. They just have way too much firepower for their cost.
2) Plasma Inceptors who do way too much damage for their cost. They need to also go up 5-10pts a model for taking the plasma gun options. (Normal inceptors with bolt weapons are fine)
After aggressors had their firepower cut in half I’m not sure why the bolt gauntlet variant didn’t get a price cut. Also, centurions why keep their price so high when they had so many nerfs?
Overall, some good balance only a few over and under costed units.
Medic. Free multiwound model(atv's...) and other benefits. Atm marine player is silly if he doesn't bring one
Don't worry, this looks like a selling strategy. I bet after everyone rushed to buy 9 ATV for their SM army, GW will issue an FAQ change the keyword of ATV into vehicle, while probably remove "core" from it and add 20pts to its cost . So this meta won't last. Then everyone would rush to buy Attack Bikes. After the stock piles of Attack Bike in GW godown has been nearly cleared, BAM, 40pts increase for Attack Bike and 100pts increase for Apothercary
bort wrote: Not that the Apothecary isn't quite good as is, but you realize as designed he has to fnp save/heal/res maybe 140pts worth of wounds to just break even, let alone be useful to include.
If you don't take the Apothecary you could just take another 100pts of something directly useful and 100pts extra on turn1 is better than 100pts dribbled in over 5 turns and dictated by your opponent's attacks.
I'm just guestimating, but I'm thinking he's tuned about right on the assumption he dies on turn 3 or is only resing intercessors all game. It's when he can res a gravis/bike model every turn for 4-5 turns that it becomes OP.
However being Blessed to consistently do that every turn is extremely unlikely unless your opponent is incompetent. You opponent treats the ATV like 8ty Necrons - can I wipe the unit if not i shoot something else
bort wrote: Not that the Apothecary isn't quite good as is, but you realize as designed he has to fnp save/heal/res maybe 140pts worth of wounds to just break even, let alone be useful to include.
If you don't take the Apothecary you could just take another 100pts of something directly useful and 100pts extra on turn1 is better than 100pts dribbled in over 5 turns and dictated by your opponent's attacks.
I'm just guestimating, but I'm thinking he's tuned about right on the assumption he dies on turn 3 or is only resing intercessors all game. It's when he can res a gravis/bike model every turn for 4-5 turns that it becomes OP.
However being Blessed to consistently do that every turn is extremely unlikely unless your opponent is incompetent. You opponent treats the ATV like 8ty Necrons - can I wipe the unit if not i shoot something else
also, I repeat, if your opponent keeps his ATVs in 3 inches of your apoc he's proably misusing his ATVs (should honestly should just be using eradicators or devestators or something instead)
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
I sure hope they “nerf” apothecaries so they don’t need a strategem to rez models, cut their points, and enable us to use/rez multiples in a turn as in previous edition. I know I stopped running one with my large unit when I realized I would rather just have more models at the beginning of the game. They have almost doubled in points in 9th.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/12/01 14:08:53
broxus wrote: I sure hope they “nerf” apothecaries so they don’t need a strategem to rez models, cut their points, and enable us to use/rez multiples in a turn as in previous edition. I know I stopped running one with my large unit when I realized I would rather just have more models at the beginning of the game. They have almost doubled in points in 9th.
Do you seriously not understand the issues surrounding the current Chief apothecary, and why it's broken right now?
broxus wrote: I sure hope they “nerf” apothecaries so they don’t need a strategem to rez models, cut their points, and enable us to use/rez multiples in a turn as in previous edition. I know I stopped running one with my large unit when I realized I would rather just have more models at the beginning of the game. They have almost doubled in points in 9th.
Do you seriously not understand the issues surrounding the current Chief apothecary, and why it's broken right now?
You play crons right? It is basically a cryptec that can res a heavy destroyer every turn. It's almost like this unit should have core restriction like the techomancer does.
Automatically Appended Next Post: My personal opinion is that Ultramarines are currently the best chapter. Gman has returned. Essentially Gman/ tripple redemptor and tiggy is an unstoppable force on 1 objective that can blow you off another easily.
Plus your 9 erradicators which are core. GG.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/12/01 19:52:10
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
broxus wrote: I sure hope they “nerf” apothecaries so they don’t need a strategem to rez models, cut their points, and enable us to use/rez multiples in a turn as in previous edition. I know I stopped running one with my large unit when I realized I would rather just have more models at the beginning of the game. They have almost doubled in points in 9th.
Do you seriously not understand the issues surrounding the current Chief apothecary, and why it's broken right now?
Yes the ATV interaction is stupid, but that is really the only glaring issue. It is good, really can really only take one, and once that interaction is fixed all is fine. I still don’t see people taking ATVs, because they are mediocre at best. Paying another 95pts to make a mediocre unit more resilient and able to bring back a model each turn is annoying. However, I would rather my opponent sink 335pt into that combo than many other more deadly units in the codex.
10000 pts
4000 pts
. So this meta won't last. Then everyone would rush to buy Attack Bikes. After the stock piles of Attack Bike in 
70% of all statistics are made up on the spot by 64% of the people that produce false statistics 54% of the time that they produce them. 
Eldar- 4436 pts
4000+
Thousand Sons 4000+
