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 Valkyrie wrote:
I would personally change the "charging up" mechanic so it can be used if the Hammerhead remains stationary in the preceding movement phase, rather than wasting a turn.

That could work too. Only giving up movement is a less significant trade-off than giving up a turn of shooting, so the chargeup option would be more powerful overall. So the drawback would lower the cost of whatever the charged up profile ends up looking like less. That said, Dandelion is correct in pointing out that my proposed statline for the charged up profile isn't all that powerful, so there's probably some wiggle room there.

Is it more fun to leave the hammerhead mobile and give up a turn of shooting in exchange for a more powerful charged-up shot, or to give up movement (implying the shot is so strong it has to sort of brace itself) and get a less powerful charged-up shot? I could go either way, but I do worry about lowering tau mobility given that we've already lost a lot of it and are encouraged to move and spread out even less by our various buff auras.

Additionally, how is it going to cause D6 Mortals on a 4+ to wound if it wounds automatically?

I was picturing players rolling to-wound for the sake of the special ability but still wounding even on a low roll. It could be reworded as rolling a d6 (that isn't a to-wound roll) after the weapon hits, but I thought it sort of made sense for a shadowseer to reduce the effectiveness of a one-shot weapon. Did the main rulebook change it so that we don't roll for things that automatically happen now? Iirc, flamers explicitly say not to roll, and anything else we'd generally just not roll for the sake of saving time. This would just be a rare case of a test being automatically passed but the exact roll result still mattering (because of the mortal wounds).




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Dandelion wrote:
@wyldhunt

Those profiles are very weak. Against a leman Russ:
Standard: 2.2 damage per turn
Charged: 4 damage + 1.75 mw every 2 turns = 2.9 damage per turn (though not sure how the mw happen without a wound roll)

Whereas a similarly priced quad las pred does 5.2 damage per turn.

You would need to double the damage profiles to make the gun as good as a tank that marine players consider lower tier.

Good math. Fair points. I guess you could just up the damage even more. Would it be too frustrating to be on the receiving end of such a weapon though? One that hits 2/3rds of the time before markerlights or CP rerolls, always wounds, potentially does some mortal wounds even if you pass an invul save, and potentially does enough damage to one-shot a rhino? It seems appropriate for this gun to be really, really strong, but there's probably an upper limit on how good you can make it seem on paper before your opponent starts getting cranky at it regardless of what its average damage actually is.

Would something like 2d6 amage and 1d6 mortal wounds on a 4+ be crossing that line? I'm not sure.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kcalehc wrote:

 Esmer wrote:
What was that thing the Tau Empire was famous for again? Incorporating client species?

There is so much potential for this. Diversify the Kroot Range. Introduce new meele specialist races. Unlike Primaris, you don't even need to screw up the established lore - because it's already established lore that the Tau incorporate new races into their military all the time. We even know for a fact that they have taken at least one race of very potent psykers under their wing (Nicassar).

Really, this could be solved so easily if GW hadn't decided that new Tau releases are to be exclusively about EKSBOEKSHUEG ranged combat battle suits some time ago.

I think this is the answer. The T'au themselves should remain the shooty part of the army; add in Kroot for a choppy part, and (variations of) Krootox for a 'heavy choppy' part. Maybe a couple others to fill some other roles, and you can get somewhere close to making them viable in the midfield scrap.

Agreed. You don't even have to make kroot amazing in melee. Just make them killy enough that a small squad of them will kill non-melee specialists off in a timely fashion. They should probably lose close combat to tactical marines and intercessors, but they should drag a few marines down with them, and they should reliably win combat against a squad of guardsmen, pink horrors, etc. Maybe let shapers be killy enough to shift the fight in their favor a little. If you gave strength 5 vespid a little love, alien auxiliaries could potentially become threatening enough in melee to actually seize objectives from soft targets.

TBH the charged profile would be fine if it just became every turn. While I would prefer no auto wounding, at least you’d have comparable damage to the pred.
The issue is that the single shot only ever wounds once every other turn, so the gun needs to do 10 damage to make up for the misses.

Dandelion wrote:
TBH the charged profile would be fine if it just became every turn. While I would prefer no auto wounding, at least you’d have comparable damage to the pred.
The issue is that the single shot only ever wounds once every other turn, so the gun needs to do 10 damage to make up for the misses.

What if you made the charged shot strength 20, Damage 2d6, +d6 mortal wounds on a to-wound roll of a 4+, and ditch the "always wounds" part? You'd have a 1/6th chance of wounding almost everything 5/6ths of the time, but the 1 in 6 chance (before rerolls) would still lower your average damage by a bit. Then, the 2d6 damage would pick your average damage back up by a smidge.

So you'd be ditching the auto-wounds, end up with a comparable (I think?) average damage, but also have a higher max damage that could be raised a bit higher if you used CP to reroll unlucky damage rolls. Opponents will feel like they still have a chance of surviving when it hits, but the tau player ends up having the option of rerolling the damage dice when he really needs to improve the amount of damage he deals.

Or, probably a bad idea, you could maybe even boost the damage further if the target has X number of markerlights on it. Maybe it's a strat. Maybe it's just a baked-in rule. But the idea is that you're investing even more heavily into the points spent taking down this one specific target. And your opponent still has counterplay in the form of killing the markerlight units that are allowing the hammerhead(s) to boost their damage.

Personally, I want Tau to be an agile army.
Fish O' Fury, Jump Shoot Jump, that's why I started Tau. I abandoned Tau to play another army when we started losing mobile options and more and more buffs started being handed out for staying still (such as the Fireblade).
So I would oppose Hammerheads charging up for a supercharged shot - I don't think that really fits the lore either.

IMO current 40k anti-tank rules don't support a powerful anti-tank weapon that's strictly single shot. A volcano cannon is only S16 and 2d6 damage, a normal railgun absolutely should not exceed that in any way shape or form.
Multiple shots is fine imo, it can represent multiple shots in quick succession or potentially a "near miss" (only one hit) doing partial damage.
Perhaps S10-12, allow it to reroll wounds against VEHICLES and AP4 with 3+d3 damage or something and the railgun could be in a good place. Although even this is exceeding the output of a Volcano Gun a significant portion of the time.

Anyone advocating for JSJ should seriously reconsider it as a mechanic.
Especially in it's early iterations it was a core issue of player fun.

That said, i'd like the old design paradigm of the combined arms small and agile type of army more then the one that spams now the huge mechs that were not vehicles .... (yes that i am still annoyed by)
How to achieve that though, on an ever smaller table transports get even less usefull and the state of these atm, (beyond some Primaris ones) is attrocious by design seemingly, is beyond me.

I'm not saying return JSP specifically, just mobility in general.
Although 40k doesn't really handle highly mobile shooting too well, as you need hang around at close range before getting to move away again anyway.

I agree that transports are pretty fundamentally terrible at the moment (unless they're open topped) for anything other than a fluffy model to use as an ersatz battle tank.

But I don't think that's a reason to force Tau into gunlines again.
Perhaps even giving them buffs relating to movement, like the old Disruption Pod - if you moved at least 6" in your turn gain -1 to hit, or similar.

Not Online!!! wrote:
Anyone advocating for JSJ should seriously reconsider it as a mechanic.
Especially in it's early iterations it was a core issue of player fun.

I disagree. The mechanic was fine and merely required a change in playstyle to combat it, making use of the movement phase to block off the JSJ units and give them no safe place to hide. Crisis suits could move a maximum of 12" with JSJ. They were not uncatchable.

Also, the change to rapid fire weaponry allowing them to shoot at max range on the move made JSJ a lot less powerful as you could no longer jump into 24" range, get off some shots and jump back out safe in the knowledge that the plasma guns could only fire up to 12" when they moved.

I think the actual culprits for the distaste for JSJ was not the Tau crisis suits or stealth suits or even the riptide (which was big enough that getting out of LOS was difficult and had the range that it could happily sit in a corner of the board and blast stuff all day). It was the Eldar jetbikes for the reason that they were basically uncatchable thanks to a 36" turbo move which prevented them being able to be locked down.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
Anyone advocating for JSJ should seriously reconsider it as a mechanic.
Especially in it's early iterations it was a core issue of player fun.

I disagree. The mechanic was fine and merely required a change in playstyle to combat it, making use of the movement phase to block off the JSJ units and give them no safe place to hide. Crisis suits could move a maximum of 12" with JSJ. They were not uncatchable.

Also, the change to rapid fire weaponry allowing them to shoot at max range on the move made JSJ a lot less powerful as you could no longer jump into 24" range, get off some shots and jump back out safe in the knowledge that the plasma guns could only fire up to 12" when they moved.

I think the actual culprits for the distaste for JSJ was not the Tau crisis suits or stealth suits or even the riptide (which was big enough that getting out of LOS was difficult and had the range that it could happily sit in a corner of the board and blast stuff all day). It was the Eldar jetbikes for the reason that they were basically uncatchable thanks to a 36" turbo move which prevented them being able to be locked down.

That's a reasonable argument actually.
Especially with the current emphasis on objective holding, nibbling at a unit sat on an objective and the jumping away safely is less powerful - as your opponent still holds the objective.
However, I also recognise that the ability to shoot an enemy unit off of an objective and then move in to claim it yourself will be quite powerful - perhaps this is the Tau's equivalent of charging in to clear the enemy in melee and take the point that way?

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
Anyone advocating for JSJ should seriously reconsider it as a mechanic.
Especially in it's early iterations it was a core issue of player fun.

I disagree. The mechanic was fine and merely required a change in playstyle to combat it, making use of the movement phase to block off the JSJ units and give them no safe place to hide. Crisis suits could move a maximum of 12" with JSJ. They were not uncatchable.

Also, the change to rapid fire weaponry allowing them to shoot at max range on the move made JSJ a lot less powerful as you could no longer jump into 24" range, get off some shots and jump back out safe in the knowledge that the plasma guns could only fire up to 12" when they moved.

I think the actual culprits for the distaste for JSJ was not the Tau crisis suits or stealth suits or even the riptide (which was big enough that getting out of LOS was difficult and had the range that it could happily sit in a corner of the board and blast stuff all day). It was the Eldar jetbikes for the reason that they were basically uncatchable thanks to a 36" turbo move which prevented them being able to be locked down.

I agree on the crisis suits beeing later on, when rapid fire could move and max range shoot, beeing less of an issue.
There are were however especially on terrain heavy tables more then enough issues still prevalent with it further not every faction was able to muster enough mobile units to successfully block off the JSJ movement and there still was the rest of a tau army.

Still, i guess my adversity does come more from eldar indeed. But i'd still be cautious about the reimplementation of it.

That beeing said, it does not help the tau that crisis suits are atm on the steep end of price.

To the OP I'm going to respond with a response that I made to a YT vid on the state of Tau in 9th.



Here was my reply, and it's a reply I will go into a bit more detail here:

I'm glad you spoke about the Shield Drone issue. Fighting Tau hasn't been fun since 6th ed. Because they made the Tau playstyle after the memes about being a gunline army and they catered towards that.

The biggest issue with Tau right now is that their not engaging on the battlefield in the slightest. They shoot. They gunline. The Greater Good isn't a fun rule because it is the opposite of engaging. Spamming shield drones wasn't fun because they aren't engaging. Markerlights were a feelsbad rule because of how easy it was you could acquire them and how they could extra micromanage them so that they lock you pout of any meaningful tactical decisions. Dynamism is what the T'au lack right now and it's rotting them inside out. I feel this was in part to them overhauling the Tau range in plastics for gundams and more gundams.

Dynamisim, is they key word here. Tau do need an overhaul but they need an overhaul in the fundamentals of how they work. Now I started in 5th ed. and Tau weren't top tier back then but they had a good few tricks and a good player could utilise them well back in the day. There was an element of Gunlines in Tau then but nowhere near to the state they became from 6th ed. onwards. I feel by the time we got the 6th ed. codex the Codex writers at the time understood the meme culture back then and pandered the army to crank that gunline to 11. Tau and Eldar were the bane of 6th. In 7th they option of Eldar was removed but that didn't stop them from being unengaging to play against. It wasn't fun to play against them, not because you were losing but because you were essentially locked out of the game because getting close to them wasn't an option outside of drop pod flamer spam.

What I feel GW should go in the direction of the T'au into a versatile and diverse army is to focus on the Empire side of things. You already caught on with the Kroot but what about plastic Vespids? Demiurg? Human defectors? Imagine if we got plastic Greater Knarlocs, Plastic (and expanded) Vespids? Maybe even add in some of the BSF stuff like Zoats? Like, the only Plastic Tau things I want to see right now are the characters and an Orca. That's it. That's all. Give us the T'au EMPIRE, not just the Tau and I feel we could see things expand in what you want.

This should give an idea to what Tau should be like. Not to limit or to take away from what people have but enhance them to be an engaging, versatile army. Tau make up part of the Empire but are not the entire empire themselves. they have allies within that also want to take up the fight.

I also think would would be great to see in gameplay is a return of synergies that revolve around a wider-style of play rather than "Gunline, hurr, durr" For example say, a return of Fish O' Fury where you could have a strat for FW/Breachers that if they disembark from a devilfish that turn they double their shots? or a more defensive playstyle that if they disembark and stay within 6" of the Devilfish then they gain heavy cover for the rest of the turn? Shadowsun gives benefits to Stealth Suits, and Farsight gives benefits to Battlesuits, etc. Of course these are just spitballed ideas, but you can see the intention of where I lay here?

Like I say, I feel T'aus main issue isn't the fact that their rules aren't competitive right now but more of the fact that, right now, they just aren't engaging to play.

Adding more shooting, even after the opponent kills your unit isn't fun. It's punishing what should be a rewarding experience. Have drones be limited to only benefitting the unit they are apart of, or have some sort of network where they can connect together but not through offensive capabilities, like some sort of military wi-fi network for example? The last thing you want is yet another tau codex where folks just sigh because its yet another gunline army. Bring in new Alien units to cover CC. Have Tau be more about the tactical precision of the objective game than the usual "hurr durr, big gun, 40,000 shots".

Maybe for Breachers steal a trick from the Space Marines for the first time and give them the ability to shoot when charged and then move up to 6". That seems more thematic for Breacher squads than it does for Space Marine Eliminators anyway...

 dadx6 wrote:
Maybe for Breachers steal a trick from the Space Marines for the first time and give them the ability to shoot when charged and then move up to 6". That seems more thematic for Breacher squads than it does for Space Marine Eliminators anyway...

I don't hate the idea of replacing FtGG with something like that in general. Having your buddies overwatch with you is fluffy, but it's also really annoying to resolve and be on the receiving end of, and it's one of the rules that encourages tau to castle up rather than being mobile. Being able to reposition the first time you're charged in a given charge phase is also fluffy, and it makes tau (feel) more mobile. Maybe limit it to more like 3" or d6" or something though.


On the topic of JSJ, something I've been considering for eldar is swapping out auras for guard-style orders or exarch/harlequin style swappable special rules. What if a commander could issue an order in the fight phase that allowed him and one battlesuit unit within X" to move after resolving their shooting attacks? Or to shoot after falling back (possibly with a to-hit penalty)? Or to perform a once-per-game reposition to anywhere on the table more than 9" away from enemy units (similar to a warp spiders exarch power)? Something like that might make tau feel mobile again and would give you a reason to send part of your army out on a flank rather than huddling everyone around your kauyon commander.

You could do something similar for other characters too. Maybe fireblades let fire warriors embark on a transport after shooting or or intercept (shoot at) a unit that arrives from reserves within 12". Maybe shapers can make kroot -1 to hit as long as they don't shoot or charge or give them a permanent bonus to AP in the fight phase provided an enemy unit dies within 6" of them on the turn that the order is issued.

I'm starting to get off topic, but I'd actually like to see something like that in most armies in the game.

I have a question regarding this topic and I need some advice from tau players. A guy from our play group plays tau and he has been a bit frustrated because his tau feel very weak compared to the other armies in our group (orks, necrons, space wolves, sisters, custodes, admech). He also often plays more fluffy lists and doesn't have the models to play super optimized lists. He mostly just ever plays one riptide for example. (just a note, nobody in our group plays super optimized tournament lists, but the tau still feel like they are always a step behind the rest)

Now we want him to enjoy the game more and have fun again so we talked about how we could house rule the tau to make them more potent. We came up with some ideas and we need some advice from tau players whether this will work or if we should go another direction.

-one suggestion was to give the benefit of +1 to hit already at 3 markerlights and switch whatever bonus is at 3 now to 5 markerlights

-give crisis suits and commanders the ability to shoot into melee at -1 to hit (no blast weapons).

-create a pre game stratagem for 2cp to buff one riptide or one boradside suit to BS3+....if he wants to buff both the riptide and the broadside, the strat costs 3cp pre game. The strat would only be usable once.

Any suggestions?

Tiberias wrote:

Any suggestions?

Improve BS of all non-commander Battlesuit models by 1. Dont permit this to stack with Veteran Cadre.

Allow Battlesuit to count as Vehicle or Monster for the purposes of Big Guns Never Tire (IE: they can fire while engaged, but can only target engaged enemies and will take a -1 to hit penalty if firing a Heavy type weapon).

Those two changes by themselves should do a significant amount. I'm personally loathe to fiddle with Markerlights for a homebrew stopgap measure because frankly the mechanic is an absolute mess and just doesnt function in 9th.

Sterling191 wrote:

Tiberias wrote:

Any suggestions?

Improve BS of all non-commander Battlesuit models by 1. Dont permit this to stack with Veteran Cadre.

Allow Battlesuit to count as Vehicle or Monster for the purposes of Big Guns Never Tire (IE: they can fire while engaged, but can only target engaged enemies and will take a -1 to hit penalty if firing a Heavy type weapon).

Those two changes by themselves should do a significant amount. I'm personally loathe to fiddle with Markerlights for a homebrew stopgap measure because frankly the mechanic is an absolute mess and just doesnt function in 9th.

Thanks for the suggestion. What makes marker lights a mess? I am asking because I know how they generally work, but I don't know tau well enough to know why they don't function well in 9th.

Tiberias wrote:
What makes marker lights a mess? I am asking because I know how they generally work, but I don't know tau well enough to know why they don't function well in 9th.

It's a confluence of factors, but in general they're on BS4+ platforms with pitiful durability, are Heavy, only provide substantial benefits (outside of seeker missile heavy builds) at 1 and 5 tokens, and also impart a baked in cost increase across the army because the implied benefits are accounted for in other unit costs. What this generally means is that your MLs are more often than not hitting on 5s (due to either moving, dense cover, defensive abilities or some combination of the above), and if you dont get your MLs off the rest of your force is overcosted, inaccurate and ineffective.

Sterling191 wrote:

Tiberias wrote:
What makes marker lights a mess? I am asking because I know how they generally work, but I don't know tau well enough to know why they don't function well in 9th.

It's a confluence of factors, but in general they're on BS4+ platforms with pitiful durability, are Heavy, only provide substantial benefits (outside of seeker missile heavy builds) at 1 and 5 tokens, and also impart a baked in cost increase across the army because the implied benefits are accounted for in other unit costs. What this generally means is that your MLs are more often than not hitting on 5s (due to either moving, dense cover, defensive abilities or some combination of the above), and if you dont get your MLs off the rest of your force is overcosted, inaccurate and ineffective.

Thank you for explaining. Do you think our idea of giving +1 to hit at 3 marker lights is too cumbersome or would it be better to make marker lights...I don't know assault weapons? Or maybe both?

Tiberias wrote:

Thank you for explaining. Do you think our idea of giving +1 to hit at 3 marker lights is too cumbersome or would it be better to make marker lights...I don't know assault weapons? Or maybe both?

If you're giving a blanket BS improvement for Battlesuits, it's not necessary to tweak the markerlight table. It's a system that needs a ground-up rewrite, and little bandaids arent going to do anything beyond remind folks just how badly the system sucks. Better to sidestep the issue entirely.

Sterling191 wrote:

Tiberias wrote:

Any suggestions?

Improve BS of all non-commander Battlesuit models by 1 (to BS3+). Dont permit this to stack with Veteran Cadre.

Allow Battlesuit to count as Vehicle or Monster for the purposes of Big Guns Never Tire (IE: they can fire while engaged, but can only target engaged enemies and will take a -1 to hit penalty if firing a Heavy type weapon).

I am fully in favor of both of these changes. Probably in addition to the changes I've suggested above (breachers shoot overwatch and then move, Devilfish go faster, 0CP stratagem to fire at enemy units when they kill friendly unit in close combat, and Crisis suits can move up to 6" at the end of the movement phase).

I am 100% against shooting after one of your units is killed - especially for free.
It's just terrible game design that punishes your opponent. Honestly, trying to charge Tau although feels extremely gakky because they get an extra shooting phase out of it. The last thing they need is to get another round of shooting if you meet any kind of success.

 kirotheavenger wrote:
I am 100% against shooting after one of your units is killed - especially for free.
It's just terrible game design that punishes your opponent. Honestly, trying to charge Tau although feels extremely gakky because they get an extra shooting phase out of it. The last thing they need is to get another round of shooting if you meet any kind of success.

What makes it "terrible game design?"

I firmly believe Tau are in dire need of a paradigm shift, both in terms of mechanics and model design/releases. They are too one-dimensional in their current form, because at some point after 2002 someone decided that increasingly bigger mechs are cooler than the initial concept of an empire comprised of many species with varying strengths and roles on the battlefield.

Reviving the Kroot range is an obvious one. They remain visually distinctive and still have a lot of untapped potential in the lore and on the table. Blackstone Fortress gave us a glimpse into what could be done with them lore wise, with them being mercenaries distributed throughout the galaxy, gathering genetic information and extracting wisdom for their spiritual collective.

What was once designed to complement the clean and futuristic look of the Tau as well as their melee weakness on the table, is now all but gone in favour of just more Tau, which leaves the army with its inherent weaknesses and strengths exacerbated, tarnishing it both visually and mechanically. With Kroot reclaiming their place as the melee competent part of the army, that would be the most glaring weakness eliminated and in turn lead to less gunliney Tau armies, further improving their potential to produce fun matches and be accepted within the community. Translate this into the game by creating different strains of kroot evolution, each with their own strengths (e.g. stealth/melee output/resilience) accompanied with a modular kit and call it a day.

Expanding on this return to old strengths, more allied races need to play a role. Get some Demiurge engineers in there, who consult the Earth Caste in their research and assist with field testing. They could be connected to Drones, for example, improving their accuracy or resilience. Have them replace firesight marksmen as dedicated drone controllers with additional perks and a variety of drones to choose from, which double as support tech for other troops, like the charge range inhibitors and pulse accelerators. These guys should be an anchor point for your army that is very (entirely?) immobile itself, but hard to remove with ranged fire, providing mobile support with their drone abilities. And while you're at it, tie all drones and the demiurge into a single squad. 1-2 model drone squads are a plague on the game. Model-wise I imagine a round base depicting an intrenched position with the demiurge sitting in their fox hole surrounded by gear and control devices. Similar in concept to the drone port, but a bit more fortified and dug into the ground (closing the metaphorical circle to the earth caste).

Now, what about Psykers? Tau don't get them and that's fine as a defining part of their identity (as much as I like the idea of floating polar bears). But at the same time, they should be aware of the perils that linger in the warp and their effect on the battlefield. It only makes sense for them to have some sort of counterplay at hand for when it is needed: enter the Vespids. Take that insectoid theme and use it as a basis for some sort of Null/Pariah ability to give tau a reliable way to contest enemy psykers. Keep the mobile jump infantry theme and tie their effectiveness to their swarm leader to a certain degree, so your opponent has opportunity for counterplay.

Visually, all of those additions should have a unified aesthetic that makes them seamless yet different to the Tau. Armor design, that weird helmet on the Vespid leader, an atmosphere suit with circular applications for the demiurge and so on. Kroot in particular should not be running around butt naked. Keep their muscular extremities to emphasize their physicality, but give them some armor to cover their vital parts and tie the look together.

 dadx6 wrote:

 kirotheavenger wrote:
I am 100% against shooting after one of your units is killed - especially for free.
It's just terrible game design that punishes your opponent. Honestly, trying to charge Tau although feels extremely gakky because they get an extra shooting phase out of it. The last thing they need is to get another round of shooting if you meet any kind of success.

What makes it "terrible game design?"

The fact it punishes a player reward (killing said unit) by making that unit a target.

With this interaction you've taken an alternating system element in a UGOIGO System which leaves sour tastes in folks' mouths.

The fact it goes against Tau lore as they don't like to use attrition-means (and have very little concept of it) due to the lack man-power in their empire. If they use they Kouyon approach it's generally considered that the unit that is the 'bait' (in this instance the T'au unit that has been killed), will be assured of protection via supporting fire. If 'expendable' troops, no matter who they are be it other T'au, Kroot, Vespid, etc, tactics are seen as an action by a Commander by superiors then they are usually seen a severely incompetent.

 The Warp Forge wrote:

The fact it punishes a player reward (killing said unit) by making that unit a target.

With this interaction you've taken an alternating system element in a UGOIGO System which leaves sour tastes in folks' mouths.

The fact it goes against Tau lore as they don't like to use attrition-means (and have very little concept of it) due to the lack man-power in their empire. If they use they Kouyon approach it's generally considered that the unit that is the 'bait' (in this instance the T'au unit that has been killed), will be assured of protection via supporting fire. If 'expendable' troops, no matter who they are be it other T'au, Kroot, Vespid, etc, tactics are seen as an action by a Commander by superiors then they are usually seen a severely incompetent.

I understand. I feel that adding the ability as a zero-CP-cost stratagem mitigates a lot of the downsides that you are pointing out. It feels to me like having it be a "once-per-phase" opportunity that can only be useful if the T'au 1) have other shooty units in range 2) have those shooty units in Line of Sight, and 3) are sure that this is the one unit that's going to get wiped this phase that they want to shoot at, reduces the severity of the penalty to the opponent. In my mind, I think of the decision process as being "Do I want to charge this unit of T'au breachers and risk taking a bunch of fire if I wipe them in close combat, or do I want to shoot past them and reduce the volume of fire being put out by the units behind them?" My thinking, I guess, is that it doesn't so much "punish" the opponent as it changes the calculus of which T'au unit to charge and how much choppyness to put into the fight.

The whole "take an action out of normal sequence" thing is essentially allowing one army to break the rules a specific way. Ynnari were stupidly overpowered because 1) they could shoot, move, or fight and 2) initially there weren't any limits on how often they could soulburst. Taking that same rule-breaking concept and thinning it down to ONLY shooting in the opponents fight phase seemed like a good way to give T'au something unique, with modest and very adjustable power (adjustable CP cost, adjustable BS modifiers, adjustable number of units that can shoot, adjustable requirements like maybe it takes an Ethereal to do it).

Finally, I see it as very thematic, because the T'au are definitely not about fighting wars of attrition but rather using the troops as bait. Punishing the enemy for killing the bait is about the best analogue I think you'll get in WH40K for Kau'yon.

However, I understand that opinions differ and you may not find these points persuasive. I'd be very interested in any suggestions you might have to replace them.

The idea of relying on the kroot or the other races in the T'au Empire to fill their gaps is great. But what could be done to Kroot to make them decent without turning them into Assault Intercessors? My son loves his Kroot and we have talked about giving them extra cover saves (would be insufficient) more attacks (they still have to get there), faster move (... okay...), and the ability to regen wounds if they kill an enemy model in combat (they still have to get there) and I'm not sure all of that would make them all that great. But I'm totally willing to test it out on the tabletop!

 dadx6 wrote:


The idea of relying on the kroot or the other races in the T'au Empire to fill their gaps is great. But what could be done to Kroot to make them decent without turning them into Assault Intercessors? My son loves his Kroot and we have talked about giving them extra cover saves (would be insufficient) more attacks (they still have to get there), faster move (... okay...), and the ability to regen wounds if they kill an enemy model in combat (they still have to get there) and I'm not sure all of that would make them all that great. But I'm totally willing to test it out on the tabletop!

That's a tricky question, but thankfully 40k has a lot of unexplored design space. I'd personally make them a terrain specialist unit that receives special abilities or increased resilience/potency etc. when occupying a forest/building what have you. This would synergize greatly with 9th edition and keep them reasonable in terms of points cost and power level. They'd still be sitting ducks in the open field and mediocre in close combat compared to more elite troops, but they would be able to hold their own to a reliable degree when engaging or defending on terrain against everything but dedicated cc monsters, when they are supported by other elements of their army (see Demiurge for example).

Any combination of -1 to hit, increased armor/cover saves and wound or model regeneration sounds like a solid basis. Maybe tie some of the more interesting bonuses to an optional shaper leader. Give them the option to upgrade into starting the match already sitting on a terrain piece (with certain restrictions, if necessary). I don't see them as a mobile part of the army, that's what suits, fliers and transports are for. They should be scrappy CQC troops made to bring superior agility and volume of attacks to the table (preferably at -1 AP).

 dadx6 wrote:

 The Warp Forge wrote:

The fact it punishes a player reward (killing said unit) by making that unit a target.

With this interaction you've taken an alternating system element in a UGOIGO System which leaves sour tastes in folks' mouths.

The fact it goes against Tau lore as they don't like to use attrition-means (and have very little concept of it) due to the lack man-power in their empire. If they use they Kouyon approach it's generally considered that the unit that is the 'bait' (in this instance the T'au unit that has been killed), will be assured of protection via supporting fire. If 'expendable' troops, no matter who they are be it other T'au, Kroot, Vespid, etc, tactics are seen as an action by a Commander by superiors then they are usually seen a severely incompetent.

I understand. I feel that adding the ability as a zero-CP-cost stratagem mitigates a lot of the downsides that you are pointing out. It feels to me like having it be a "once-per-phase" opportunity that can only be useful if the T'au 1) have other shooty units in range 2) have those shooty units in Line of Sight, and 3) are sure that this is the one unit that's going to get wiped this phase that they want to shoot at, reduces the severity of the penalty to the opponent. In my mind, I think of the decision process as being "Do I want to charge this unit of T'au breachers and risk taking a bunch of fire if I wipe them in close combat, or do I want to shoot past them and reduce the volume of fire being put out by the units behind them?" My thinking, I guess, is that it doesn't so much "punish" the opponent as it changes the calculus of which T'au unit to charge and how much choppyness to put into the fight.

The whole "take an action out of normal sequence" thing is essentially allowing one army to break the rules a specific way. Ynnari were stupidly overpowered because 1) they could shoot, move, or fight and 2) initially there weren't any limits on how often they could soulburst. Taking that same rule-breaking concept and thinning it down to ONLY shooting in the opponents fight phase seemed like a good way to give T'au something unique, with modest and very adjustable power (adjustable CP cost, adjustable BS modifiers, adjustable number of units that can shoot, adjustable requirements like maybe it takes an Ethereal to do it).

What if your army isn't that great at shooting or you have a list built around combat? (Like Tyranids for example) Suddenly this stategem makes player not want to fight T'au and then you'll be back in the 6-7th ed. pitfall of folk not wanting to play against you.

Finally, I see it as very thematic, because the T'au are definitely not about fighting wars of attrition but rather using the troops as bait. Punishing the enemy for killing the bait is about the best analogue I think you'll get in WH40K for Kau'yon.

And also promotes the idea that T'au see their alien allies as 'expendable' breaking that point of immersion.

However, I understand that opinions differ and you may not find these points persuasive. I'd be very interested in any suggestions you might have to replace them.

The idea of relying on the kroot or the other races in the T'au Empire to fill their gaps is great. But what could be done to Kroot to make them decent without turning them into Assault Intercessors? My son loves his Kroot and we have talked about giving them extra cover saves (would be insufficient) more attacks (they still have to get there), faster move (... okay...), and the ability to regen wounds if they kill an enemy model in combat (they still have to get there) and I'm not sure all of that would make them all that great. But I'm totally willing to test it out on the tabletop!

Gladly! What I would do for an idea like this is to promote the mobility-side of the army. The tau way of war is similar to the Eldar. Not to waste units and mobility . Combine this with synergies with the Tau empire 'allies' units. One way I would do this is to say that, at the start of controlling players shooting phase, if there is a Fire Caste unit (Like FW) are within 6" of their alien allies (no idea on keywords), then they can either advance and shoot or vice versa. I feel it gets the idea that Tau excel in the surprise ambush perspective, allows them to give the visual of the bait and supporting fire tactic and relies on the tactics of synergy and placement with precision. a powerful ability that requires proper thought, more points investment and force org. slots away from other units that would traditionally (from 6th - 7th ed) have forced down a more unegaging 'gunline' approach.

Just echoing the sentiment that bonus shooting when a unit dies probably isn't a good idea. Fight again and extra movement for ynnari were definitely an issue, but the biggest offenders were probably double tapping dark reapers. As someone who played ynnari, people were never excited to have their turn interrupted to have an efficient shooting unit reach out and murder something across the table. Even if you heavily restrict which units can do it, it's still not going to be an enjoyable rule to play against. It also weirdly encourages things like suiciding a unit into melee so that a nearby shooting unit can get an extra round of shooting in.

It was a can of worms for ynnari, and giving ourselves a third shooting phase (on top of normal shooting and overwatch) probably isn't a good enough solution to our problems to be worth the new problems it would create.

Tau just needs a proper lieutenant class battlesuit.

And master of war needs to be reworked. It's not nearly as strong as it needs to be for a one-time use ability.

Master of War - During your command phase, select a COMMANDER (or SUB-COMMANDER) unit from your army that is on the battlefield. That unit gains the following ability until your next command phase. This ability cannot be used if there are no COMMANDER or SUB-COMMANDER units on the battlefield.

Combat Doctrine: During your command phase, select which combat doctrine will be active until the beginning of your next command phase. If Mont'ka is active, then all units within 6" of COMMANDER or SUB-COMMANDER can both advance and shoot as if they hadn't moved this turn. If Kau'yon is active, all units that are not within 6" of COMMANDER or SUB-COMMANDER can re-roll failed hit rolls, but these units cannot move for any reason. (So you need to be within 6" of commander to move that turn).

So, during a Mont'ka, the main heavy hitters advance forward causing distraction & destruction while the rest of the forces move up the board to set up a Kau'yon. Once the enemy begin retaliating against the alpha strike from the Mont'ka, Kau'yon is declared and the rest of the force now entrenches and ambushes the retaliatory forces while the commander and its retinue continues to fall back, 'luring' the enemy further into the Kau'yon.

Dark strider and fireblade should be moved to elites section too, IMO.

 skchsan wrote:
Tau just needs a proper lieutenant class battlesuit.

And master of war needs to be reworked. It's not nearly as strong as it needs to be for a one-time use ability.

Master of War - During your command phase, select a COMMANDER (or SUB-COMMANDER) unit from your army that is on the battlefield. That unit gains the following ability until your next command phase. This ability cannot be used if there are no COMMANDER or SUB-COMMANDER units on the battlefield.

Combat Doctrine: During your command phase, select which combat doctrine will be active until the beginning of your next command phase. If Mont'ka is active, then all units within 6" of COMMANDER or SUB-COMMANDER can both advance and shoot as if they hadn't moved this turn. If Kau'yon is active, all units that are not within 6" of COMMANDER or SUB-COMMANDER can re-roll failed hit rolls, but these units cannot move for any reason. (So you need to be within 6" of commander to move that turn).

So, during a Mont'ka, the main heavy hitters advance forward causing distraction & destruction while the rest of the forces move up the board to set up a Kau'yon. Once the enemy begin retaliating against the alpha strike from the Mont'ka, Kau'yon is declared and the rest of the force now entrenches and ambushes the retaliatory forces while the commander and its retinue continues to fall back, 'luring' the enemy further into the Kau'yon.

I'd love for Kau'yon to sotp requiring units huddle together and hold still. That along with FtGG really promote static castles instead of the mobile play style tau used to be known for. Mont'ka letting you basically have a bubble of batte focus for a turn is cute but probably not hugely impactful whereas a bubble of rerolling all failed to-hit rolls is something you might build a list around.

Dark strider and fireblade should be moved to elites section too, IMO.

Personal preference: leave them as HQs. I like having the option of fielding non-ethereal non-suit HQs even if they're not optimized. Plus, they're a relatively cheap option, which can matter in smaller games.

Wyldhunt wrote:
Mont'ka letting you basically have a bubble of batte focus for a turn is cute but probably not hugely impactful whereas a bubble of rerolling all failed to-hit rolls is something you might build a list around.

Maybe this form of Master of War can be the generic doctrine, with each sept having a different super doctrine/ability that applies to a certain combat doctrine.

For example:
FSE: While Mont'ka is active, the Combat Doctrine ability applies to all FARSIGHT ENCLAVE COMMANDER and FARSIGHT ENCLAVE SUB-COMMANDER.
Vior'la: While Mont'ka is active, increase the S of weapons by 1 if within half range of the weapon used. This effect is cumulative to any other abilities that increases the S characteristic.
Dal'yth: While Kau'yon is active, attacks that target units with this sept suffers -1 to hit rolls unless within 12" of the model with this tenet.
Sa'cea: While Kau'yon is active, you can re-roll a single failed wound roll for each Sa'cea unit.
T'au: While Kau'yon is active, add 1 to hit rolls made during overwatch. (designer's note: this ability allows you to modify your hit rolls for attacks made during overwatch).
Bork'an: While Mont'ka is active, improve the AP by 1 for all rapid fire and heavy type weapons with this tenet.