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Karol wrote:
It is much better then 8th, incomperably in my opinion. 9th ed factions are fun to play. Harlis are the dominant factions as are demons, which is a bummer, but I guess one can't get everything.

Game feels unplayable for some faction at all, and for some faction the point limits are really rough. Playing normal sized games can be really fun, but playing something like 1000pts is just an NPE for some factions with the core rules given.

why is it a bummer that demons and quins are dominant right now? They spent most of 8th being nonexistant mono-armies.

They are both very good against GK, which makes playing my army less fun. Also good harlis mean that there is a chance that CWE will get good rules, and I don't think they should after what they had in 8th.

Karol wrote:
They are both very good against GK, which makes playing my army less fun. Also good harlis mean that there is a chance that CWE will get good rules, and I don't think they should after what they had in 8th.

Dude. Just full stop.

If you can't deal with good rules for factions other then yours, you are in the wrong hobby.
balance isn't a fething 0 sum issue and neither is winning the only thing relevant in this hobby beyond the comparatively small tournament circuit, and even in that one balance and improved balance would be welcomed if only to put the onus back on actually "playing the game" instead of FOTM list spam.

Tough to see how they would be tbh. I thought the main things GK were bringing to the table was mortal wound spam and low-S low-AP high volume firepower and they really struggled to bring down targets with lots of wounds.

That ain't harlies or slaanesh.

Karol wrote:
They are both very good against GK, which makes playing my army less fun. Also good harlis mean that there is a chance that CWE will get good rules, and I don't think they should after what they had in 8th.

Isnt the GK-Demon matchup pretty even (considering the current demon builds)? They can't really spam their "bring back killed demons strats" because they spend so many CPs pregame, and your smites hit like a truck. And your bolters dont care about a 5++

And saying that harlies shouldnt be good because CWE were good in 8th is some intense mental gymnastics. Thats the same as if i was saying that GK being terrible for most of 8th was warranted because Ultramarines were OP in 7th.

Demon soup lists are in the top of best armies right now. GK are a for fun army that gives up secondaries for free.

And I have been told that GK have to be bad because of a codex I never played under. I seen a ton of eldar player use harli units when Inari were a thing, why shouldn't I see the similarity.

Ah and durning 8th ed, my GK were nerf on a regular basis, because this or that power lists was a problem. And my dudes had no access to 5 hive tyrants with wings or Primarchs giving re-rolls to everything. So yeah my dudes were nerfed because of other armies, I seen no reason why other armies should be exempt from being treated the same.

Karol wrote:
Demon soup lists are in the top of best armies right now. GK are a for fun army that gives up secondaries for free.

And I have been told that GK have to be bad because of a codex I never played under. I seen a ton of eldar player use harli units when Inari were a thing, why shouldn't I see the similarity.

Ah and durning 8th ed, my GK were nerf on a regular basis, because this or that power lists was a problem. And my dudes had no access to 5 hive tyrants with wings or Primarchs giving re-rolls to everything. So yeah my dudes were nerfed because of other armies, I seen no reason why other armies should be exempt from being treated the same.

Other armies should be exempt for the same reason your army should be exempt. The fact that it wasn't is a travesty, not that it should happen to everyone else.

The fact that some people died in a nuclear inferno in Hiroshima does not mean everyone should die in a nuclear inferno.

Not Online!!! 794304 10996831 wrote:

Dude. Just full stop.

If you can't deal with good rules for factions other then yours, you are in the wrong hobby.
balance isn't a fething 0 sum issue and neither is winning the only thing relevant in this hobby beyond the comparatively small tournament circuit, and even in that one balance and improved balance would be welcomed if only to put the onus back on actually "playing the game" instead of FOTM list spam.

Oh I started at the very start of 8th and had to deal with the difference all edition. GK had a rules set writen as if they were playing a different game, and the constants errata and FAQ nerfs didn't help either. But I don't see why I should be happy that other armies get treated better then my army is.

I wouldn't mind to have an eldar/Inari like codex through out 2-2,5 years of 9th ed, even if this ment that this or that army were to be really bad. I just want to get my good time for the money I spent on my army, and the time I spent playing when it was very unfun to play. And 8th was very un fun to me. 9th comparing to this is nice, and I say this with GK hardly being good or powerful in 9th, in fact they are probably one of the bottom tier armies if they go second.


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 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Other armies should be exempt for the same reason your army should be exempt. The fact that it wasn't is a travesty, not that it should happen to everyone else.

The fact that some people died in a nuclear inferno in Hiroshima does not mean everyone should die in a nuclear inferno.

Well yeah in a perfect world. But world isn't perfect. GW has a limit on how lucky they can get with writing a good set of rules. And this to me means that the more bad rules sets they write for other armies the bigger the chance, that my army will get a good rules set, or failing that there is going to be enough other bad armies to have a quasi even game.

Karol wrote:

Not Online!!! 794304 10996831 wrote:

Dude. Just full stop.

If you can't deal with good rules for factions other then yours, you are in the wrong hobby.
balance isn't a fething 0 sum issue and neither is winning the only thing relevant in this hobby beyond the comparatively small tournament circuit, and even in that one balance and improved balance would be welcomed if only to put the onus back on actually "playing the game" instead of FOTM list spam.

Oh I started at the very start of 8th and had to deal with the difference all edition. GK had a rules set writen as if they were playing a different game, and the constants errata and FAQ nerfs didn't help either. But I don't see why I should be happy that other armies get treated better then my army is.

I wouldn't mind to have an eldar/Inari like codex through out 2-2,5 years of 9th ed, even if this ment that this or that army were to be really bad. I just want to get my good time for the money I spent on my army, and the time I spent playing when it was very unfun to play. And 8th was very un fun to me. 9th comparing to this is nice, and I say this with GK hardly being good or powerful in 9th, in fact they are probably one of the bottom tier armies if they go second.

Once you realize the problem and root cause of your lack of enjoyment is GW and not other players, you'll finally get it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Karol wrote:
Well yeah in a perfect world. But world isn't perfect. GW has a limit on how lucky they can get with writing a good set of rules. And this to me means that the more bad rules sets they write for other armies the bigger the chance, that my army will get a good rules set, or failing that there is going to be enough other bad armies to have a quasi even game.

The world could be more perfect if that was the goal, rather than spiting one another for problems that aren't even each other's fault.

Karol wrote:
Demon soup lists are in the top of best armies right now. GK are a for fun army that gives up secondaries for free.

And I have been told that GK have to be bad because of a codex I never played under. I seen a ton of eldar player use harli units when Inari were a thing, why shouldn't I see the similarity.

Ah and durning 8th ed, my GK were nerf on a regular basis, because this or that power lists was a problem. And my dudes had no access to 5 hive tyrants with wings or Primarchs giving re-rolls to everything. So yeah my dudes were nerfed because of other armies, I seen no reason why other armies should be exempt from being treated the same.

Yes demons is top tier and GK isnt, you can still do something in this matchup because of the special rules you have against the faction.
Ynnari, Craftworld, Drukhari and Harlequins are all different armies.
Your dudes werent nerfed because of other armies, they got hit with collateral damage.
I doubt that people said you deserved to get nerfed for a past codex, it was probably people explaining a possible cause for the low power of GKs in 8th coupled with your poor readign comprehension that gave you that impression.
You don't have to play a top tier army to have fun.

After seeing you bitch and moan during all of 8th, seeing you happy that other armies are getting shafted is super hypocritical. Lay off the schadenfreude.

Oh and for the 10th time, its Ynnari. And Gw reacted properly and removed the abuse from it, now its a subpar army but its still fun to play.

@Karol
I can understand your points.
Especially with the marine changes, that didn't do anything for the GKs...
take a look at some of the tabletop tactics videos for example. Lawrence (the spider) has some decent matches playing GK lists.

My 9th Ed Game is nonexistant because nobody in my circle of friends have seen another of our households in real life since lockdown began. COVID is killing literally thousands every day in this country, and as consciencious human beings we are doing our part to stop the spread.

Imagine if everyone was cavalier enough to risk the spread for something as silly as toy soldiers. How many more of us would be dead? Millions in my country already believe in insane conspiracy theories, the least I can do is not be responsible for adding more bodies to the death toll.

 ph34r wrote:
My 9th Ed Game is nonexistant because nobody in my circle of friends have seen another of our households in real life since lockdown began. COVID is killing literally thousands every day in this country, and as consciencious human beings we are doing our part to stop the spread.

Imagine if everyone was cavalier enough to risk the spread for something as silly as toy soldiers. How many more of us would be dead? Millions in my country already believe in insane conspiracy theories, the least I can do is not be responsible for adding more bodies to the death toll.

While I am on the side of self-isolation, I just have to cheekily inform you:

So there's a thing called Tabletop Simulator that many people use...

It's also entirely possible to play responsible and safe games of 40k in-person by following social distancing rules, hand hygiene and wearing masks.

If your local gaming location isn't enforcing those sorts of rules then of course stay away.

 ph34r wrote:
My 9th Ed Game is nonexistant because nobody in my circle of friends have seen another of our households in real life since lockdown began. COVID is killing literally thousands every day in this country, and as consciencious human beings we are doing our part to stop the spread.

Imagine if everyone was cavalier enough to risk the spread for something as silly as toy soldiers. How many more of us would be dead? Millions in my country already believe in insane conspiracy theories, the least I can do is not be responsible for adding more bodies to the death toll.

Around these parts, Public Health authorities issue rules that people and businesses follow. My FLGS has sound protocols to include greatly reduced density in the gaming area, mandatory mask wearing, contact tracing, no spectators, the terrain is left on the table and the staff the move it a separate space for a week to disinfect. If our Region has a worsening COVID count then gaming will shut down. All that to say, there is nothing cavalier about it.

Occasionally get the spark to play a game of 7th but still have zero interest in playing 9th. The changes in 8th completely gutted all the gameplay elements that I liked about 40k and 9th didn't do nearly enough to correct course (due in large part to it's bare bones core ruleset not having a proper foundation for meaningful gameplay options). It sucks because my drive to build and paint models dried up because of GW's incompetence (just like how half of my paint dried up due to their garbage paint pots).

Our group follows the required guidelines and have been meeting once a week for 5 months in person and nobody has gotten sick from it.

Karol wrote:

Ah and durning 8th ed, my GK were nerf on a regular basis, because this or that power lists was a problem. And my dudes had no access to 5 hive tyrants with wings or Primarchs giving re-rolls to everything. So yeah my dudes were nerfed because of other armies, I seen no reason why other armies should be exempt from being treated the same.

Daily reminder that were you to start the hobby the way you did with literally any other army you would have had the exact same experience.

If you buy secondhand an ancient collection of mismatched ancient miniatures with 3 random pewter characters, 7 heavy infantry with random wargear, 3 primaris models your army can't use, 1 dreadnought, and a transport your heavy infantry can't go in, and then you pay the person MORE than MSRP for those miniatures, your collection would be gak.

If you'd started the edition with whatever Baharroth, Illic Nightspear, Fuegan, 6 guardians with no platform, a wraithlord with double AML and flamers, 2 wraithguard, and a falcon grav tank and you paid 400$ for that, you would have an equivalently gak time throughout 8th and into 9th.

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

Karol wrote:
It is much better then 8th, incomperably in my opinion. 9th ed factions are fun to play. Harlis are the dominant factions as are demons, which is a bummer, but I guess one can't get everything.

Game feels unplayable for some faction at all, and for some faction the point limits are really rough. Playing normal sized games can be really fun, but playing something like 1000pts is just an NPE for some factions with the core rules given.

why is it a bummer that demons and quins are dominant right now? They spent most of 8th being nonexistant mono-armies.

That really isn't true. A lot less people own these armies for sure but they were never bad in 8th. Quinns are now obnoxious.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

Karol wrote:
It is much better then 8th, incomperably in my opinion. 9th ed factions are fun to play. Harlis are the dominant factions as are demons, which is a bummer, but I guess one can't get everything.

Game feels unplayable for some faction at all, and for some faction the point limits are really rough. Playing normal sized games can be really fun, but playing something like 1000pts is just an NPE for some factions with the core rules given.

why is it a bummer that demons and quins are dominant right now? They spent most of 8th being nonexistant mono-armies.

That really isn't true. A lot less people own these armies for sure but they were never bad in 8th. Quinns are now obnoxious.

I never said they were bad, i said they were basically nonexistant. Skyweavers were always good and you would most often see them in soup lists. Nurgle demons and bloodletter bombs were decent and also played in soup lists. I'm saying that mono Quins or mono Demons were a minuscule part of the metagame.

Now that they have missions that work perfectly with their playstyle, of course theyre seeing more play.

And just to make it clear : i would much rather all armies be as playable as these ones, its just refreshing to me to see more people interested in these armies that were more niche in 8th

 Xenomancers wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

Karol wrote:
It is much better then 8th, incomperably in my opinion. 9th ed factions are fun to play. Harlis are the dominant factions as are demons, which is a bummer, but I guess one can't get everything.

Game feels unplayable for some faction at all, and for some faction the point limits are really rough. Playing normal sized games can be really fun, but playing something like 1000pts is just an NPE for some factions with the core rules given.

why is it a bummer that demons and quins are dominant right now? They spent most of 8th being nonexistant mono-armies.

That really isn't true. A lot less people own these armies for sure but they were never bad in 8th. Quinns are now obnoxious.

I haven't played against Quinns in a tournament-hammer environment, my usual Harlequin opponent has a slightly different list than the current 'competitive standard' but does have many elements of the standard list, and I don't play against him with a list I'd be bringing to a 9th ed tournament, but instead a strong competitive TAC list.

How much of the obnoxiousness of Quinns is caused by the fact that, in a current competitive 40k setting, you MUST tailor your whole list to beat multiwound low-T-high-Sv MEQs or you WILL LOSE?

Because I look at a tournament winning, say, Admech list, and I see a high AP electropriest bomb, breachers for troops, dakkabots and the rifle rider guys and I'm like...yeah, quins are gonna eat that for lunch, that's totally tailored against marines because marines+custodes are still like 55% of the competitive list pool. And when I play against Quinns with an actual TAC list that includes anti light infantry stuff, I don't really seem to have that many issues.

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

Karol wrote:
It is much better then 8th, incomperably in my opinion. 9th ed factions are fun to play. Harlis are the dominant factions as are demons, which is a bummer, but I guess one can't get everything.

Game feels unplayable for some faction at all, and for some faction the point limits are really rough. Playing normal sized games can be really fun, but playing something like 1000pts is just an NPE for some factions with the core rules given.

why is it a bummer that demons and quins are dominant right now? They spent most of 8th being nonexistant mono-armies.

That really isn't true. A lot less people own these armies for sure but they were never bad in 8th. Quinns are now obnoxious.

I never said they were bad, i said they were basically nonexistant. Skyweavers were always good and you would most often see them in soup lists. Nurgle demons and bloodletter bombs were decent and also played in soup lists. I'm saying that mono Quins or mono Demons were a minuscule part of the metagame.

Now that they have missions that work perfectly with their playstyle, of course theyre seeing more play.

And just to make it clear : i would much rather all armies be as playable as these ones, its just refreshing to me to see more people interested in these armies that were more niche in 8th

People just souped because there was no disadvantage to it and it opened doors and gave you access to more stratagems and relics and such. That was only at the hyper competitive level anyways. Locally my group 90% of players were running mono armies. Harlies imo were always really boring to play against because the game was so predictable. Go first against them you win. They go first you pretty much have no chance unless you started way back in your deployment zone/ they fail a lot of 4++ on their transports. Now with all the mandatory terrain in games and the fact they pretty much ignore it - unless you have a complete tailored list you can't compete. They ignore way too many of the games rules.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

the_scotsman wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

Karol wrote:
It is much better then 8th, incomperably in my opinion. 9th ed factions are fun to play. Harlis are the dominant factions as are demons, which is a bummer, but I guess one can't get everything.

Game feels unplayable for some faction at all, and for some faction the point limits are really rough. Playing normal sized games can be really fun, but playing something like 1000pts is just an NPE for some factions with the core rules given.

why is it a bummer that demons and quins are dominant right now? They spent most of 8th being nonexistant mono-armies.

That really isn't true. A lot less people own these armies for sure but they were never bad in 8th. Quinns are now obnoxious.

I haven't played against Quinns in a tournament-hammer environment, my usual Harlequin opponent has a slightly different list than the current 'competitive standard' but does have many elements of the standard list, and I don't play against him with a list I'd be bringing to a 9th ed tournament, but instead a strong competitive TAC list.

How much of the obnoxiousness of Quinns is caused by the fact that, in a current competitive 40k setting, you MUST tailor your whole list to beat multiwound low-T-high-Sv MEQs or you WILL LOSE?

Because I look at a tournament winning, say, Admech list, and I see a high AP electropriest bomb, breachers for troops, dakkabots and the rifle rider guys and I'm like...yeah, quins are gonna eat that for lunch, that's totally tailored against marines because marines+custodes are still like 55% of the competitive list pool. And when I play against Quinns with an actual TAC list that includes anti light infantry stuff, I don't really seem to have that many issues.

I see issues with an army completely ignoring the AP statistic. At least in a custodian army you can remove some of their durability. Quinn's completely ignore. Just like they completely ignore terrain. All the limitations on assault removed (after fall back and advance). As it works even in 8th you had 1 turn to shoot up the quins before they rolled you with 5 attacks each with reroll wounds. Now you probably wont even get that. You literally have to fight that crap in CC now - which you can't - so you lose.

I have fought 9th Ed Harlies in casual and tourney games - they certainly have a great toolbox for this edition. They eat vehicles with their Skyweavers while their troops have mobility, durability, firepower and melee against both hordes and hard targets. Hanging back to survive gives up the midfield which is the path to defeat. I’ve relied on volume of shots and Inner Circle.

The Triple Keeper list are also a great fit with 9th. They can run out and dominate the midfield, and hanging back leads to defeat on Primaries. At least they give up Secondaries.

Because of COVID, non existent.

Which is currently fine for me, gives time for the Tyranid dex to arrive.

I live in the US so playing in public places is just COVID roulette right now.

I work in a job where I see a lot of the comings and goings of people with COVID symptoms and at least for my area it's been getting worse.

Amusingly, thanks to the TTS, I play more 40k now than ever since I've re-entered the game with 8th edition.

ERJAK wrote:
I live in the US so playing in public places is just COVID roulette right now.

I work in a job where I see a lot of the comings and goings of people with COVID symptoms and at least for my area it's been getting worse.

You can take solace in the fact you take a bigger risk getting in your car everyday and probably don't think twice about it.

Needless to say. Gaming in stores is pretty much dead. Garage hammer is making a big comeback .

I played two games and quite frankly I don't think I'll be getting more games in any time soon with how COVID is looking in California.

I'm not really inspired to play much. Covid hit, the game has become bloated, and it has not been as fun as it was when the indexes dropped and every army was balanced (for the most part)

Now it's a rock, paper, scissor, flamethrower cycle of new space marine releases that lacks any kind of incentive to play again.....

We have been playing more and more as the State locks down harder and harder. With so much showing how to slow it down and to recover from it we are trying to be Critical Thinkers instead of emotional "Virtuous" bandwagoners.

9th has been really good.