How is 40k like Dune?

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**Pacific**

Thanks for that post AndrewGPaul, very interesting.

Duskweaver wrote:
Pacific wrote:
Originally, prior to the tail-end of Rogue Trader, marines were 'chemically hardened' warriors that were created in the most inhospitable and dangerous climates imaginable, as well as from cut-throats and criminals; those that survive make excellent soldiers. This is almost word-for-word the same as the description of Sardakur in Dune. Since late RT the genetic engineering bit has been added to this as well as the more monastic/knight in space concept

I'm sorry, but I'm going to have to object a bit here. The 'original' version of Space Marines as drugged-up criminals didn't last until "the tail-end of Rogue Trader". It lasted barely five months. The version of Space Marines we know today (male children implanted with 19 artificial organs grown from geneseed, then trained with hypno-indoctrination and organised into chapters of 1000 battle-brothers in fortress-monasteries) appears essentially fully-formed in an article by Rick Priestley in WD98 in February 1988. IIRC, the Primarchs were added in Slaves to Darkness later that year. After that, the only changes were the fleshing out of certain chapters in 2nd edition.

Thanks for the correction. I can only say my perception of time must have been very different back then as a child (or perhaps I was just going off the 40k rulebook, followed up by the Compilation book). That artwork of marines sat in taverns, far away from the space knights they later became, felt like a lot longer period of time!

**agurus1**

Everyone seems to have forgotten the most glaring connection between Dune and 40k.... Glow globes.

**Insectum7**

It's not Dune, but I'm re-reading Asimov's Foundation and it very quickly involves

1: A slowly crumbling Galactic Empire
2: Degradation and loss of technology
3: The formation of a "tech religion" with priests who are only superficially aware of how things work, and who otherwise ritualize maintenance.

**Pacific**

Ah definitely, I'm reading the book at the moment as well and the similarities of that concept are really striking.

Interestingly (and I am kind of half-joking here) I wonder if things in 40k lore are coming full circle, and like the Foundation which would eventually re-energise humanity from a period of darkness, the very modern 40k lore is kind of following those steps? The Primarchs coming back, Primaris, new types of science, weaponry and wargear, humanity once again pushing back the Xenos menace?

On a side note, I posted this link from an interview with Rick Priestly where he has some comments about the origins of some of the themes. Obviously there is mention of Dune, although none of 2000AD (for reference to the other thread of this nature that's running at the moment) https://www.reddit.com/r/40kLore/comments/9z42fy/qa_with_rick_priestley_part_2_the_lore_of/

**Torga_DW**

You have to keep in mind, 40k has changed a lot since it first ripped off dune (and it ripped a little out of a lot of different things).

Lasguns, energy fields, close combat fighting. Yeah, 40k is more now, but lets remember the original stuff like from rogue trader when it first came out. And when it came out.

Marines weren't the noble defenders of humanity, and its arguable their str bonus came from their leet 4+ power armour. They were just repurposed convicts and criminals, just like the sardaukar from dune.

If someone can give earlier concepts of these things i'd love to hear it.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Insectum7 wrote:
It's not Dune, but I'm re-reading Asimov's Foundation and it very quickly involves

1: A slowly crumbling Galactic Empire
2: Degradation and loss of technology
3: The formation of a "tech religion" with priests who are only superficially aware of how things work, and who otherwise ritualize maintenance.

I don't want to spoil anything, but how much asimov have you read in its entirety?, and most importantly recently? Asimov was the man.

**Insectum7**

Torga_DW wrote:
You have to keep in mind, 40k has changed a lot since it first ripped off dune (and it ripped a little out of a lot of different things).

Lasguns, energy fields, close combat fighting. Yeah, 40k is more now, but lets remember the original stuff like from rogue trader when it first came out. And when it came out.

Marines weren't the noble defenders of humanity, and its arguable their str bonus came from their leet 4+ power armour. They were just repurposed convicts and criminals, just like the sardaukar from dune.

If someone can give earlier concepts of these things i'd love to hear it.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Insectum7 wrote:
It's not Dune, but I'm re-reading Asimov's Foundation and it very quickly involves

1: A slowly crumbling Galactic Empire
2: Degradation and loss of technology
3: The formation of a "tech religion" with priests who are only superficially aware of how things work, and who otherwise ritualize maintenance.

I don't want to spoil anything, but how much asimov have you read in its entirety?, and most importantly recently? Asimov was the man.

I read much more when I was younger, I'm only just getting back to him with the Foundation series, and I'm only on the first book.

But I remember also really enjoying I Robot as well as some other short story anthologies.

**Polonius**

I forget Foundation when I rattle off the influences that went into 40k, but I don't think I'm being hyperbolic when I argue that essentially ALL sci-fi from before about 1990 has worked at least something of itself into 40k.

**Torga_DW**

Polonius wrote:
I forget Foundation when I rattle off the influences that went into 40k, but I don't think I'm being hyperbolic when I argue that essentially ALL sci-fi from before about 1990 has worked at least something of itself into 40k.

Dude i'm dying here. Foundation is like 20+ (easily, lets not quibble) years old, but someone i tended to argue with is reading it right now. I am bursting with 'well this is relevant' vs 'he hasn't read it yet'. Like damn, i have so much to say but yeah we don't like each other.

As for taking things, yeah they took everything that was available that i myself know of. But they shaped it into something new and even today relatively unique. I still want to see earlier (pre heinlen, herbert, asimov) references to these concepts, because i'm sure they're there but i don't know them. I won't cite references, but i even read the skylark series. Everything is reshaped, i'd like to know the earliest versions of these things we have.

**Insectum7**

Torga_DW wrote:
Polonius wrote:
I forget Foundation when I rattle off the influences that went into 40k, but I don't think I'm being hyperbolic when I argue that essentially ALL sci-fi from before about 1990 has worked at least something of itself into 40k.

Dude i'm dying here. Foundation is like 20+ (easily, lets not quibble) years old, but someone i tended to argue with is reading it right now. I am bursting with 'well this is relevant' vs 'he hasn't read it yet'. Like damn, i have so much to say but yeah we don't like each other.

As for taking things, yeah they took everything that was available that i myself know of. But they shaped it into something new and even today relatively unique. I still want to see earlier (pre heinlen, herbert, asimov) references to these concepts, because i'm sure they're there but i don't know them. I won't cite references, but i even read the skylark series. Everything is reshaped, i'd like to know the earliest versions of these things we have.

You can go right ahead and get into it if you like, I won't mind. In fact, I can just not view this thread to avoid spoilers. I can have the discipline for that, and crank on the books in the meantime.

And yeah, the first book was published in 1951. . 70 years ago! But some of the later ones came decades later.

**Torga_DW**

Insectum7 wrote:
Torga_DW wrote:
You have to keep in mind, 40k has changed a lot since it first ripped off dune (and it ripped a little out of a lot of different things).

Lasguns, energy fields, close combat fighting. Yeah, 40k is more now, but lets remember the original stuff like from rogue trader when it first came out. And when it came out.

Marines weren't the noble defenders of humanity, and its arguable their str bonus came from their leet 4+ power armour. They were just repurposed convicts and criminals, just like the sardaukar from dune.

If someone can give earlier concepts of these things i'd love to hear it.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Insectum7 wrote:
It's not Dune, but I'm re-reading Asimov's Foundation and it very quickly involves

1: A slowly crumbling Galactic Empire
2: Degradation and loss of technology
3: The formation of a "tech religion" with priests who are only superficially aware of how things work, and who otherwise ritualize maintenance.

I don't want to spoil anything, but how much asimov have you read in its entirety?, and most importantly recently? Asimov was the man.
I read much more when I was younger, I'm only just getting back to him with the Foundation series, and I'm only on the first book.

But I remember also really enjoying I Robot as well as some other short story anthologies.

Lets have a conversation when you're at then end of the foundation saga. Like, again i don't want to spoil anything. But then lets talk about asimov's relevance to herbertish generalizationalization. I'm dying here.

edit: no i'm dying here. read! <whipslash>! read!

**Insectum7**

^Haha. Alright I'll do my homework.

By saga do you mean the original four book? Or do we include the later published prequel too?

**KidCthulhu**

What's the old saying? Dune X 2000AD + Starship Troopers =Warhammer 40,000?

**JohnnyHell**

Space Marines are from Heinlein’s Starship Troopers.
Chaos is from Moorcock.
God Emperors, mistrust of tech and resulting dark ages, crusades, folding space, sonic weaponry, genetic meddling, creepy ancient orders, warring feudal clans, ritualistic guilds, messed-up clones, personal energy fields, ornithopters... all these and more have been borrowed from Dune.

40K is not just from one influence. Trying to say “Dune has no Space Marines so 40K =/= Dune” is daft, frankly. No, it’s not. But it borrows lots.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

KidCthulhu wrote:
What's the old saying? Dune X 2000AD + Starship Troopers =Warhammer 40,000?

Bingo. Slap in some Star Wars, Alien and a sprinkle of Doctor Who while you’re at it!

**Racerguy180**

Very much Doctor Who & Alien. Space Hulk is Alien without ripping directly off. The more esoteric

Star Wars is too cute and cuddly(my own 80s nerd viewpoint), to have anything other than a tertiary influence.

**Pacific**

It's funny the stuff you remember as it was probably 30 years ago but I remember a sales guy in a modelling store selling me Space Hulk as Aliens the boardgame. I think with the timing of the release it's very clear that that's what they were trying to invoke with the release.

What's kind of funny is that now there is a new Aliens board game, which is great fun and very much like Space Hulk, and reading some of the comments of "Wow they have really copied Space Hulk". Guess what goes around comes around

**Niiai**

Totalwar1402 wrote:
I’ve seen this coming up a lot in passing comments when people discuss Dune.

- Space Marines aren’t in Dune. There’s no army of genetically engineered super soldiers. These are incredibly central to the story of 40k and make up the bulk of its lore. These warrior brotherhoods who recruit from feral worlds and go kill monsters.

- There’s no Chaos equivalent or Horus Heresy. Hell is not invading the galaxy and since they appear in almost all 40k stories is a pretty significant difference.

- There’s no aliens in Dune. So you basically have to take out all non human factions; which is a lot of 40k lore out the gate. This means Dune is much more introspective and philosophical rather than about these big existential threats to humanity and the impact that endless war has on human society.

The reasons I’ve seen cited are basically -

- Humanity being an ancient species in a political entity called the Imperium.

- The idea of a psychic God Emperor ruling all humanity.

- Navigators as Mutants to perform certain functions.

- The Men of Iron pushing humanity into a regressive state

- Some of the religious aspects/themes but that’s extremely general and could be said about almost any piece of literature on religion. Particularly the whole Crusade Paul makes to unite the galaxy with his legions.

I’d agree the writers clearly looked at the Imperium from Dune and slotted it into their own sci-fi world like a run of Stellaris. But those aren’t really the elements which for me make 40k interesting. You could know nothing about the Great Crusade or Navigators and still get 40k. The Emperor is a distant and functionally a sent character in the narrative unlike the Emperors in Dune; who take centre stage. Whereas if you cut out Space Marines, Chaos and all the alien factions you wouldn’t have much work with. Honestly, DND is way more of an inspiration. Let’s take all these fantasy factions and put them in space. The Dune elements are very superficial to the hobby and why I started collecting.

There is one central planet importat for human travel. (The emperors beacon for psykicks pararels with the navigators needing spice to fold space.)

Folding space and warp travel are quite similar in apearance. Although it does not travel through chaos.

You need mutants to fold space/warp travel.

The precience people get on spice is very similar to 40k psyciks in general and the eldar in particular. The 'golden path' paul does not dare to do that his son Leto performs is similar to how eldrad tries to navigate the eldar species.

Both universes has had a robot uprising and tusly outlawed computers.

Deathplanets brew strong fighters in both universes.

Gola clones are very similar to Dark Eldar cloning.

Face dancers are very similar to how callius assassins morph around.

Both settings have central all imposing ruling goverments.

**Insectum7**

Pacific wrote:
It's funny the stuff you remember as it was probably 30 years ago but I remember a sales guy in a modelling store selling me Space Hulk as Aliens the boardgame. I think with the timing of the release it's very clear that that's what they were trying to invoke with the release.

What's kind of funny is that now there is a new Aliens board game, which is great fun and very much like Space Hulk, and reading some of the comments of "Wow they have really copied Space Hulk". Guess what goes around comes around

You know, back in the day I had an Aliens board game. It had a little map with movement squarez and everything. I had some Alien figures back then, (I dont know where they went) and I still have a collection of pewter Alien eggs.

**PenitentJake**

Racerguy180 wrote:
Very much Doctor Who & Alien. Space Hulk is Alien without ripping directly off. The more esoteric

Star Wars is too cute and cuddly(my own 80s nerd viewpoint), to have anything other than a tertiary influence.

Tangent, but funny thing about Star Wars: when people talk about cuteness in Star Wars, they're usually talking about ewoks.

But ewoks are some of the most evil little things in the series! They planned to cook the Rebels alive and eat them! Even Vader and Ren never contemplated that level of evil. Also, in the siege of the forest moon, the ewoks must have been preparing those traps and battle strategies for MONTHS before the Imperials showed up. They might not have won that war without the rebels, but they certainly were planning to fight it.

And during the celebration of victory, when the evil ewoks were playing drums on storm trooper helmets, how certain are we that those helmets didn't also contain the heads of said storm troopers?

Don't know about y'all, but I wouldn't be willing to take that bet.

Tangent over.

**Matt Swain**

If we want to talk about influences on 40k then in a way i think star trek was sort of an influence on it as i think a lot of the 40k feel was meant to be a direct opposite to the optimistic future imagined in trek with humanity getting it's gak together and advancing to a better state.

The introduction to 40k, the first words printed in the first 40k book, had the message "Forget the power of technology, science and common humanity. Forget the promise of progress and understanding..." and ends with "But the universe is a big place, and whatever happens, you will not be missed..."

So maybe trek influenced 40k in the sense of 40k was made to be the exact opposite of trek's ideas. The line about forgetting the promise of progress and understanding seems to be a direct, deliberate refutation of trek's theme.

Ironically after decades of the grimdark meme, 40k had almost reached the level of self parody with it and writers finally brought back roboute guilleman to shake things up. If anything good old bobby is in a lot of ways the embodiment of the trek ideology of a brighter future and a better, more advanced humanity.

I guess a storyline revolving around a stagnant, decaying world eventually need at least the possibility of things getting better to keep the audience numbers from decaying away...

**Racerguy180**

PenitentJake wrote:

The thing about Star Wars & Star Trek is that they both have lofty ideals. while Trek is the epitome of cooperation/unity & star wars is the epitome of drama(space opera). 40k on the other hand is if all of the bad things that trek/wars was warning about actually were the bright spots in universe.

40k is the complete antithesis of everything that both idealized.

And I love 40k for just how fethed up it is. If by some horrid turn of events, it becomes less fethed up I prob wouldn't like it as much.

**Longstrider**

It's almost like it's a constitutive feature of compelling stories that they interact with each other and their audiences.

**Wunzlez**

-Guardsman- wrote:

But Warhammer 40,000 has many, many sources of inspiration, of which Dune is only one.

Agreed.

In fact, the more recent trend of taking the 40k universe more and more seriously is interesting given that its earlier incarnations were more along the line of a Paul Verhoeven satire. And while I love that fan-made Astartes series of films, in my mind I keep seeing Starship Troopers when I think of 40k. And that also doesn't mean you cannot do serious things in that setting, but taking it too seriously blurs the line between the Imperium being a dystopian nightmare of "better the hell you know" and showing Space Marines as heroic without any hint of propaganda, irony or sarcasm.

The HH series always reminded me a bit of Dune, though not generally as well-written in my opinion. But they are certainly space-operas.