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I’ve seen this coming up a lot in passing comments when people discuss Dune.
- Space Marines aren’t in Dune. There’s no army of genetically engineered super soldiers. These are incredibly central to the story of 40k and make up the bulk of its lore. These warrior brotherhoods who recruit from feral worlds and go kill monsters.
- There’s no Chaos equivalent or Horus Heresy. Hell is not invading the galaxy and since they appear in almost all 40k stories is a pretty significant difference.
- There’s no aliens in Dune. So you basically have to take out all non human factions; which is a lot of 40k lore out the gate. This means Dune is much more introspective and philosophical rather than about these big existential threats to humanity and the impact that endless war has on human society.
The reasons I’ve seen cited are basically -
- Humanity being an ancient species in a political entity called the Imperium.
- The idea of a psychic God Emperor ruling all humanity.
- Navigators as Mutants to perform certain functions.
- The Men of Iron pushing humanity into a regressive state
- Some of the religious aspects/themes but that’s extremely general and could be said about almost any piece of literature on religion. Particularly the whole Crusade Paul makes to unite the galaxy with his legions.
I’d agree the writers clearly looked at the Imperium from Dune and slotted it into their own sci-fi world like a run of Stellaris. But those aren’t really the elements which for me make 40k interesting. You could know nothing about the Great Crusade or Navigators and still get 40k. The Emperor is a distant and functionally a sent character in the narrative unlike the Emperors in Dune; who take centre stage. Whereas if you cut out Space Marines, Chaos and all the alien factions you wouldn’t have much work with. Honestly, DND is way more of an inspiration. Let’s take all these fantasy factions and put them in space. The Dune elements are very superficial to the hobby and why I started collecting.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/01/10 13:47:55
Starting Sons of Horus Legion
Starting Daughters of Khaine
2000pts Sisters of Silence
4000pts Fists Legion
Sylvaneth A forest
III Legion 5000pts
XIII Legion 9000pts
Hive Fleet Khadrim 5000pts
Kabal of the Torn Lotus .4000pts
Coalition of neo Sacea 5000pts
- Space Marines aren’t in Dune. There’s no army of genetically engineered super soldiers. These are incredibly central to the story of 40k and make up the bulk of its lore. These warrior brotherhoods who recruit from feral worlds and go kill monsters.
The Sardaukar, the Fremen, the Bene Gesserit, the Tleilaxu, the Fish Speakers, and the Honored Matres would all like to have a word with you.
- There’s no Chaos equivalent or Horus Heresy. Hell is not invading the galaxy and since they appear in almost all 40k stories is a pretty significant difference.
Literally the defining moment in the reign of Leto II is a rebellion that culminates in his betrayal and murder by a child he genetically engineered the existence of, and the subsequent catastrophic collapse of human society.
- There’s no aliens in Dune. So you basically have to take out all non human factions; which is a lot of 40k lore out the gate. This means Dune is much more introspective and philosophical rather than about these big existential threats to humanity and the impact that endless war has on human society.
The post-God Emperor narrative centers around an invasion by an extremely alien civilization and the subsequent societal upheaval it causes on an already scattered and beleaguered human race. Furthermore, several of the once-human offshoots can realistically be considered "aliens" by the time the narrative hits that point. Divergent evolution is most definitely a thing.
Totalwar1402 wrote: But those aren’t really the elements which for me make 40k interesting.
That's great, I'm glad you find things in the fluff you enjoy. But that doesnt for a moment mean they're the *only* things in the source material you're poo-pooing.
Totalwar1402 wrote: You could know nothing about the Great Crusade or Navigators and still get 40k. The Emperor is a distant and functionally a sent character in the narrative unlike the Emperors in Dune; who take centre stage.
Only if you stop at the first novel. The Dune narrative arcs for literally thousands upon thousands of years. Looking at simply Dune, Messiah or Children is roughly the equivalent to looking purely at the nascent Imperium after the Unification.
Totalwar1402 wrote: Whereas if you cut out Space Marines, Chaos and all the alien factions you wouldn’t have much work with. Honestly, DND is way more of an inspiration. Let’s take all these fantasy factions and put them in space. The Dune elements are very superficial.
This is demonstrably false.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/01/10 02:25:12
I can see lines of comparison where inspiration was likely drawn, but having gone through both I wouldn't say they are like each other. The tone does not feel the same, the scale is radically different, the technology and how it interacts with the setting is completely different, there's a lot of weird sex stuff that becomes increasingly important to the plot... I feel like so much of what made Dune great was the originality and uniqueness of the setting. But in the modern day it is not so original and no so unique, forcing things back to the character and story that have a weird dichotomy between brilliance and... just bad. Put simply, I think Dune is a classic from another era that does not translate well into our own.
But that does not eliminate the inspiration drawn from it, or mean it should not be given credit for what it was back in the day.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/01/10 02:42:08
I think there is definitely some Dune influence in Warhammer 40,000, mainly when it comes to the setting: a technologically-advanced but socially-backwards world, where futuristic technologies co-exist with dogmatic religion and a quasi-feudal political system.
But Warhammer 40,000 has many, many sources of inspiration, of which Dune is only one.
Not really. I think the scale is about the same (including the size of the setting, the timeline and the stakes). It's just that Dune, being a single book series that was mostly written by one dude, has less room to explore the vastness of the setting; compared with Warhammer 40,000, which is a shared universe that spans several media such as literature and video games.
there's a lot of weird sex stuff that becomes increasingly important to the plot...
I do agree that the Warhammer 40,000 universe is very sexless... almost afraid of sex. The only people in 40k who seem to have a sex life worth talking about are villains, such as Slaanesh worshipers and Drukhari.
As far as we know, the Emperor and most of his primarchs are virgins.
.
This message was edited 6 times. Last update was at 2021/01/10 03:11:03
Honestly I find it refreshing. Maybe its better outside the US (doubt it) but I get blasted with SEX SEX SEX all day every day. You can't get away from it.
Others have responded to the Dune similarities, so I wish to highlight a particular issue in the original post:
Totalwar1402 wrote: Whereas if you cut out Space Marines, Chaos and all the alien factions you wouldn’t have much work with. Honestly, DND is way more of an inspiration.
That leaves you with the Adeptus Mechanicus, Ministorum, Arbites, Titanicus, Sororitas, Administratum, Astra Telepathica, Navis Nobilite, Officio Assassinorum, the Inquisition, Astra Militarum, Imperial Navy and Schola Progenia, to go along with a vast galaxy of dysfunctional local cultures that are all interesting because they are broken in different ways, living under alien suns and on strange worlds and void habitats, with mutations, interstellar shipping and a monstrous decline of technology and living standards. Including Necromunda.
40k is at its heart not about power armour. It is about the decline of empires, of corpse-like stagnation, ossifying regression, rampant corruption, loss of knowledge and of an endless reign of terror and fanaticism in the darkest of futures. 40k draws upon the most depraved aspects of human history to glorious effect: It is bonkers, it is a comedy wrapped in a tragedy, it began life as a satire and oft serve as its own parody.
Check out Matthew Farrer's excellent Enforcer omnibus: There is neither Adeptus Astartes, aliens nor Chaos in sight (only hinted at in passing reference and shown, not told, in connection to Warp travel and astrotelepathy). It's all Imperium. All human. All intrigue and infighting. And it's rich, bizarre and utterly fantastic, akin to a John Blanche artwork.
Forget the power fantasy for a while, and immerse yourself in the sheer ludicrous insanity of the Imperium. There is more than enough to work with creatively even without Chaos, Space Marines and aliens: Case in point on the forum. See also Kid Kyoto's excellent writings here.
Space Marines are basically the marketable space knight crowd puller which allows GW to explore other aspects of the setting even when they don't yield much revenue. They are interesting in and of themselves, but only up to a point. There is so much else on offer in 40k as a setting.
Ps. The Emperor is a virile manly stallion. Otherwise he wouldn't be a human ruler of humanity. See Sensei. Ds.
This message was edited 14 times. Last update was at 2021/01/10 03:51:35
40k would be so interesting if space marines were made entirely non-playable. Or rather, it would be interesting to experience a 40k where space marines were relegated to NPC status (while still being as strong as they are). Unfortunately a commercial imposibility to explore properly, but you know what? I can equally appreciate the appeal of super soldier badasses licking ass. Especially as the real world gets bleaker, the urge to escape into a simple power trip is greater.
NinthMusketeer wrote: 40k would be so interesting if space marines were made entirely non-playable. Or rather, it would be interesting to experience a 40k where space marines were relegated to NPC status (while still being as strong as they are). Unfortunately a commercial imposibility to explore properly, but you know what? I can equally appreciate the appeal of super soldier badasses licking ass. Especially as the real world gets bleaker, the urge to escape into a simple power trip is greater.
There could be an rpg book for something like that.
And the Butlerian jihad is a direct equivalent to the whole men of iron thing, and resulting binding of human technology and regression to a feudal social system.
I would therefore respectfully disagree with the OP and contend that Dune is an extremely important (if not the most important) template used in the development of the Imperium as an organisation, and human social structure, in the 40k setting. Yes, dune itself is based on historical.examples of human social structures, but there are just too many parallels between how it's done in dune and in 40k to say that GW just used the same source material.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/01/10 10:00:48
Please excuse any spelling errors. I use a tablet frequently and software keyboards are a pain!
-Guardsman- wrote: I think there is definitely some Dune influence in Warhammer 40,000, mainly when it comes to the setting: a technologically-advanced but socially-backwards world, where futuristic technologies co-exist with dogmatic religion and a quasi-feudal political system.
But Warhammer 40,000 has many, many sources of inspiration, of which Dune is only one.
Basically, this. There are certainly overlaps. But it's certainly not 'like Dune'. As with so many elements of the 40k universe, there are certain 'nods' to cult / classic SF, but that's a whole part of the 40k aesthetic really. It's a combination of lots of famous SF, with its own take on a dark dystopia.
Academic based in Lancaster (UK). Co-founder of Warhammer Conference, the world's first academic conference dedicated to all things Warhammer.
Dune is a foundation stone for the Imperium of Man, definitely. Any argument to the contrary probably means that the person making the argument has not read much Dune.
Karak Norn Clansman wrote: Others have responded to the Dune similarities, so I wish to highlight a particular issue in the original post:
Totalwar1402 wrote: Whereas if you cut out Space Marines, Chaos and all the alien factions you wouldn’t have much work with. Honestly, DND is way more of an inspiration.
That leaves you with the Adeptus Mechanicus, Ministorum, Arbites, Titanicus, Sororitas, Administratum, Astra Telepathica, Navis Nobilite, Officio Assassinorum, the Inquisition, Astra Militarum, Imperial Navy and Schola Progenia, to go along with a vast galaxy of dysfunctional local cultures that are all interesting because they are broken in different ways, living under alien suns and on strange worlds and void habitats, with mutations, interstellar shipping and a monstrous decline of technology and living standards. Including Necromunda.
40k is at its heart not about power armour. It is about the decline of empires, of corpse-like stagnation, ossifying regression, rampant corruption, loss of knowledge and of an endless reign of terror and fanaticism in the darkest of futures. 40k draws upon the most depraved aspects of human history to glorious effect: It is bonkers, it is a comedy wrapped in a tragedy, it began life as a satire and oft serve as its own parody.
Check out Matthew Farrer's excellent Enforcer omnibus: There is neither Adeptus Astartes, aliens nor Chaos in sight (only hinted at in passing reference and shown, not told, in connection to Warp travel and astrotelepathy). It's all Imperium. All human. All intrigue and infighting. And it's rich, bizarre and utterly fantastic, akin to a John Blanche artwork.
Forget the power fantasy for a while, and immerse yourself in the sheer ludicrous insanity of the Imperium. There is more than enough to work with creatively even without Chaos, Space Marines and aliens: Case in point on the forum. See also Kid Kyoto's excellent writings here.
Space Marines are basically the marketable space knight crowd puller which allows GW to explore other aspects of the setting even when they don't yield much revenue. They are interesting in and of themselves, but only up to a point. There is so much else on offer in 40k as a setting.
Ps. The Emperor is a virile manly stallion. Otherwise he wouldn't be a human ruler of humanity. See Sensei. Ds.
By being the marketable faction and being half of sales isn’t a small matter. I did not get into 40k because I read about the men of iron putting humanity into a regressive state or I thought the initial blurb was mind blowing. In fact it was only really a few years into the hobby that I understood what the Lore was about. It’s got far more to do with the ascetics of the models, the game and frankly if you’d had a similar sized store doing wargames with say Star Wars back in the 90s I would certainly have started that instead.
In fact, it’s exactly why for a few years I stopped collecting 40k and shifted to Lord of the Rings because that was when the films came out and were so iconic and amazing. Despite no grimdark. I wasn’t that fascinated by the lore that I wanted to collect an army. The one Imperial army, Sisters of Battle, that I wanted to collect at the time I didn’t because I was waiting for them to get their plastic models and that was entirely down to the look of the army. I only got back into 40k because of Tyranid and Tau releases.
If in an alternate universe you had, I dunno, a more Age of Sigmar style, WoW take on 40k I am not convinced that this would have dampened my enthusiasm for the Hobby. Especially not back when I was 10. Essentially they were the only horse in the race and once you’re brought into the hobby with your friends it carries on from that. So I am really not sold that grimdark Dune-lite is at the heart of what makes 40k. That’s really just window dressing.
Starting Sons of Horus Legion
Starting Daughters of Khaine
2000pts Sisters of Silence
4000pts Fists Legion
Sylvaneth A forest
III Legion 5000pts
XIII Legion 9000pts
Hive Fleet Khadrim 5000pts
Kabal of the Torn Lotus .4000pts
Coalition of neo Sacea 5000pts
NinthMusketeer wrote: I can equally appreciate the appeal of super soldier badasses licking ass.
Typo.
Read a Graham McNeill novel and it's more likely than you think.
You know I think there is probably a deep metaphor in there. Are Space Marines not kissing the ass of the GW sales team in the same act as kicking ass? But yes, a rather amusing typo
40k is rich melange of influences, in fact there aren't many sci fi franchises from before 1987 that haven't influenced it in some way. (I suppose you'd need to dig pretty deep to find aspects of Star Trek in 40k, although Vulkans seem to have inspired the eldar paths).
Space marines, easily the most iconic aspect of 40k, draw their inspiration from golden age sci fi and pulp, but probably the two biggest influences are Star Ship Troopers (for doctrine and tactics) and Dune's sardaukar (for the idea of raising people on a death world to create super soldiers).
Dune has it's fingers all over 40k though, and probably most critically, it recognizes that the difficulty of space travel means planets, while connected, are also left alone. this means feudalism becomes a viable form of government. Beyond that... man, it's probably tough to find an aspect fo40k that Dune didn't inspire or least predict.
If we just look at the original Dune series of books here are the obvious ones for me:
The navigators that are required to use their psychic (prescient or otherwise) skills to manoeuvre safely through extra dimensional space for long distance space flights. Also flight through the warp and the idea that without navigators you can’t accurately predict where you will re enter real space. I think for me the idea of navigation is the biggest rip off from dune.
The setting, a vast galaxy of planets ruled by humans in a rather fudal style with a central seat of power, literally and emperor of emperors (padisha emperor is a more exhausted title than emperor not unlike god emperor) trying desperately to maintain power over a disparate empire where each planet is ruled over by a planetary elite that can be as kind or cruel as they see fit to a rather down trodden population.
Violence is seen as the only real way to maintain control of the galaxy. There is the spice in dune and I think GW would have gone too far if they had their own.
If you look at the art work from the film compared to early 40K artwork
Both stories have a historical setting where some kind of AI did something very bad to humans so AI is outlawed
Religion is used to control people via a central religious organisation that seeks to control the empire themselves
All tech comes from one place (mechanicum and Ixians)
In dune the idea of stagnation and how it will be the end of humans of a big thing and we have similar scenario in 40K
mrFickle wrote: If we just look at the original Dune series of books here are the obvious ones for me:
The navigators that are required to use their psychic (prescient or otherwise) skills to manoeuvre safely through extra dimensional space for long distance space flights. Also flight through the warp and the idea that without navigators you can’t accurately predict where you will re enter real space. I think for me the idea of navigation is the biggest rip off from dune.
The setting, a vast galaxy of planets ruled by humans in a rather fudal style with a central seat of power, literally and emperor of emperors (padisha emperor is a more exhausted title than emperor not unlike god emperor) trying desperately to maintain power over a disparate empire where each planet is ruled over by a planetary elite that can be as kind or cruel as they see fit to a rather down trodden population.
Violence is seen as the only real way to maintain control of the galaxy. There is the spice in dune and I think GW would have gone too far if they had their own.
If you look at the art work from the film compared to early 40K artwork
Both stories have a historical setting where some kind of AI did something very bad to humans so AI is outlawed
Religion is used to control people via a central religious organisation that seeks to control the empire themselves
All tech comes from one place (mechanicum and Ixians)
In dune the idea of stagnation and how it will be the end of humans of a big thing and we have similar scenario in 40K
That is quite a lot then for the Imperium.
Constantly dwelling on stagnation is probably a self fulfilling prophecy.
Starting Sons of Horus Legion
Starting Daughters of Khaine
2000pts Sisters of Silence
4000pts Fists Legion
Sylvaneth A forest
III Legion 5000pts
XIII Legion 9000pts
Hive Fleet Khadrim 5000pts
Kabal of the Torn Lotus .4000pts
Coalition of neo Sacea 5000pts
Karak Norn Clansman wrote: Others have responded to the Dune similarities, so I wish to highlight a particular issue in the original post:
Totalwar1402 wrote: Whereas if you cut out Space Marines, Chaos and all the alien factions you wouldn’t have much work with. Honestly, DND is way more of an inspiration.
That leaves you with the Adeptus Mechanicus, Ministorum, Arbites, Titanicus, Sororitas, Administratum, Astra Telepathica, Navis Nobilite, Officio Assassinorum, the Inquisition, Astra Militarum, Imperial Navy and Schola Progenia, to go along with a vast galaxy of dysfunctional local cultures that are all interesting because they are broken in different ways, living under alien suns and on strange worlds and void habitats, with mutations, interstellar shipping and a monstrous decline of technology and living standards. Including Necromunda.
40k is at its heart not about power armour. It is about the decline of empires, of corpse-like stagnation, ossifying regression, rampant corruption, loss of knowledge and of an endless reign of terror and fanaticism in the darkest of futures. 40k draws upon the most depraved aspects of human history to glorious effect: It is bonkers, it is a comedy wrapped in a tragedy, it began life as a satire and oft serve as its own parody.
Check out Matthew Farrer's excellent Enforcer omnibus: There is neither Adeptus Astartes, aliens nor Chaos in sight (only hinted at in passing reference and shown, not told, in connection to Warp travel and astrotelepathy). It's all Imperium. All human. All intrigue and infighting. And it's rich, bizarre and utterly fantastic, akin to a John Blanche artwork.
Forget the power fantasy for a while, and immerse yourself in the sheer ludicrous insanity of the Imperium. There is more than enough to work with creatively even without Chaos, Space Marines and aliens: Case in point on the forum. See also Kid Kyoto's excellent writings here.
Space Marines are basically the marketable space knight crowd puller which allows GW to explore other aspects of the setting even when they don't yield much revenue. They are interesting in and of themselves, but only up to a point. There is so much else on offer in 40k as a setting.
Ps. The Emperor is a virile manly stallion. Otherwise he wouldn't be a human ruler of humanity. See Sensei. Ds.
By being the marketable faction and being half of sales isn’t a small matter. I did not get into 40k because I read about the men of iron putting humanity into a regressive state or I thought the initial blurb was mind blowing. In fact it was only really a few years into the hobby that I understood what the Lore was about. It’s got far more to do with the ascetics of the models, the game and frankly if you’d had a similar sized store doing wargames with say Star Wars back in the 90s I would certainly have started that instead.
In fact, it’s exactly why for a few years I stopped collecting 40k and shifted to Lord of the Rings because that was when the films came out and were so iconic and amazing. Despite no grimdark. I wasn’t that fascinated by the lore that I wanted to collect an army. The one Imperial army, Sisters of Battle, that I wanted to collect at the time I didn’t because I was waiting for them to get their plastic models and that was entirely down to the look of the army. I only got back into 40k because of Tyranid and Tau releases.
If in an alternate universe you had, I dunno, a more Age of Sigmar style, WoW take on 40k I am not convinced that this would have dampened my enthusiasm for the Hobby. Especially not back when I was 10. Essentially they were the only horse in the race and once you’re brought into the hobby with your friends it carries on from that. So I am really not sold that grimdark Dune-lite is at the heart of what makes 40k. That’s really just window dressing.
And I didnt get into 40k because of space marines. They had nothing at all to do with why I got into 40k. Just because it's the only selling point to you doesnt mean it's one at all to somebody else
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Autopistol, Steel Extendo, Puma Hoodie
USRs: "Preferred Enemy: Xenos"
"Hatred: Xenos"
"Racist and Proud of it" - Gains fleshbane, rending, rage, counter-attack, and X2 strength and toughness when locked in combat with units not in the "Imperium of Man" faction.
Karak Norn Clansman wrote: Others have responded to the Dune similarities, so I wish to highlight a particular issue in the original post:
Totalwar1402 wrote: Whereas if you cut out Space Marines, Chaos and all the alien factions you wouldn’t have much work with. Honestly, DND is way more of an inspiration.
That leaves you with the Adeptus Mechanicus, Ministorum, Arbites, Titanicus, Sororitas, Administratum, Astra Telepathica, Navis Nobilite, Officio Assassinorum, the Inquisition, Astra Militarum, Imperial Navy and Schola Progenia, to go along with a vast galaxy of dysfunctional local cultures that are all interesting because they are broken in different ways, living under alien suns and on strange worlds and void habitats, with mutations, interstellar shipping and a monstrous decline of technology and living standards. Including Necromunda.
40k is at its heart not about power armour. It is about the decline of empires, of corpse-like stagnation, ossifying regression, rampant corruption, loss of knowledge and of an endless reign of terror and fanaticism in the darkest of futures. 40k draws upon the most depraved aspects of human history to glorious effect: It is bonkers, it is a comedy wrapped in a tragedy, it began life as a satire and oft serve as its own parody.
Check out Matthew Farrer's excellent Enforcer omnibus: There is neither Adeptus Astartes, aliens nor Chaos in sight (only hinted at in passing reference and shown, not told, in connection to Warp travel and astrotelepathy). It's all Imperium. All human. All intrigue and infighting. And it's rich, bizarre and utterly fantastic, akin to a John Blanche artwork.
Forget the power fantasy for a while, and immerse yourself in the sheer ludicrous insanity of the Imperium. There is more than enough to work with creatively even without Chaos, Space Marines and aliens: Case in point on the forum. See also Kid Kyoto's excellent writings here.
Space Marines are basically the marketable space knight crowd puller which allows GW to explore other aspects of the setting even when they don't yield much revenue. They are interesting in and of themselves, but only up to a point. There is so much else on offer in 40k as a setting.
Ps. The Emperor is a virile manly stallion. Otherwise he wouldn't be a human ruler of humanity. See Sensei. Ds.
By being the marketable faction and being half of sales isn’t a small matter. I did not get into 40k because I read about the men of iron putting humanity into a regressive state or I thought the initial blurb was mind blowing. In fact it was only really a few years into the hobby that I understood what the Lore was about. It’s got far more to do with the ascetics of the models, the game and frankly if you’d had a similar sized store doing wargames with say Star Wars back in the 90s I would certainly have started that instead.
In fact, it’s exactly why for a few years I stopped collecting 40k and shifted to Lord of the Rings because that was when the films came out and were so iconic and amazing. Despite no grimdark. I wasn’t that fascinated by the lore that I wanted to collect an army. The one Imperial army, Sisters of Battle, that I wanted to collect at the time I didn’t because I was waiting for them to get their plastic models and that was entirely down to the look of the army. I only got back into 40k because of Tyranid and Tau releases.
If in an alternate universe you had, I dunno, a more Age of Sigmar style, WoW take on 40k I am not convinced that this would have dampened my enthusiasm for the Hobby. Especially not back when I was 10. Essentially they were the only horse in the race and once you’re brought into the hobby with your friends it carries on from that. So I am really not sold that grimdark Dune-lite is at the heart of what makes 40k. That’s really just window dressing.
And I didnt get into 40k because of space marines. They had nothing at all to do with why I got into 40k. Just because it's the only selling point to you doesnt mean it's one at all to somebody else
I had no idea you weren’t me. Really, absolutely blown my mind there.
Starting Sons of Horus Legion
Starting Daughters of Khaine
2000pts Sisters of Silence
4000pts Fists Legion
Sylvaneth A forest
III Legion 5000pts
XIII Legion 9000pts
Hive Fleet Khadrim 5000pts
Kabal of the Torn Lotus .4000pts
Coalition of neo Sacea 5000pts
As a slight detour: Aesthetics and models are core to 40k, and the chosen approach of focusing on Space Marines have obviously come about as a logical response to the great customer demand for Space Marines of various flavours. Genetically engineered super soldiers in big pauldrons with rocket launcher machine guns are obviously a great concept, and a perfect entry point for most people who get into 40k as a miniature hobby, a wargame and a setting. I got into 40k more because of the hilariously bonkers and ornate Inquisition and varied aliens than because of Space Marines, but I was instantly charmed when I opened my first White Dwarf and saw Logan grimnar's model, and read about the Ultramarines' struggles against the Tyranids (CSM Rhino cover, a little while before the Eye of Terror campaign). Reading the dark and weird background of Space Marine creation only made those power armour buffs more interesting; that background from Rick Priestley goes above and beyond the call of duty for a wargame, like so much else in 40k.
Games Workshop have done a lot of things right in their background efforts on the Adeptus Astartes with offshoots. However, it would be patently wrong to call 40k without Space Marines, Chaos and Xenos a thin gruel. There is a lot to work with, both in terms of background already developed, and potential to mine in the future. Dune is obviously one good inspiration source for 40k, and the bizarre themes it lend to the grim darkness of the far future lend it extra staying power in keeping the setting interesting for those wanting to drill down into the background. John Blanche's vision have contributed a lot to this, and expanded on the Dune themes.
40k is a science fantasy smörgåsbord. The more, the merrier. As such, while the Imperium on its own without Space Marines would still be greatly interesting, the setting as a whole is so much better because there is such a sheer variety and width, including a myriad of Chapters, Xenos and Daemons.
The whole is greater than the sum of its parts.
This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2021/01/11 20:09:08
I loved all the meta books written by Irulan that were quoted at the beginning of each chapter. Those books only exist in the fictional world of Dune- no one's ever bothered to try and write one. I think they'd be fantastic; they wouldn't be fiction- it would read like a poli-sci textbook.
On a related note, my Chaos Cult, (known as the Cult of Carnal Light) are inspired by Dune because they use something similar to Semuta in order to recruit new members.
For those who may not remember, Semuta is a drug/ music combo. If I remember correctly, Gurney Halleck had a Semuta addiction.
To the OP - I think you can say that you didn't find those areas of 40k that correspond or were influenced by Dune interesting, but that doesn't change the fact that there was a lot of influence there (And actually, why should it matter where the influences come from? Nothing is created in a vacuum. Frank Herbert's ideas were no doubt influenced by material that he had read, even if he did place a novel spin on those ideas).
I would that some of those influences are pretty fundamental, and that if you had to pick out one big influence on the 40k setting (beyond the generic Tolkein-inspired tropes in WHFB) Dune is probably the most significant.
The one caveat that has to be added to that (and this is something that was repeated in the 2000AD thread) is that 40k has changed a lot in the past 30 years as a setting, especially in the last decade, and so some of the similarities and influences aren't as stark as they once were.
Please feel free to add to this list! - Think the biggest influence is the general setting of a feudal system in the far future, run as a quasi-theocracy by a 'God Emperor'. The concept of a 'space fantasy' (to differentiate from what you could regard as hard sci-fi, Asimov, Clarke etc.) and terminology and events that straddle sci-fi and fantasy. Special wizardry-tech reduces future combat to the melee level where skilled swordsmen and highly valued, for example. It's interesting to note that Dune was pretty original I think in that idea when it was first published in the 60s so I think stands out as a major influence.
- A galaxy-wide empire held together by 'Navigators' that are genetic mutants, and are orchestrated by great houses, that have a special ability to navigate through folds in space and the aether. The navigators are both essential and despised by the other great powers and actors that comprise that universe.
- Sardakur and Fremen as Space Marines. The 40k conception of Marines has moved somewhat since its conception. Originally, prior to the tail-end of Rogue Trader, marines were 'chemically hardened' warriors that were created in the most inhospitable and dangerous climates imaginable, as well as from cut-throats and criminals; those that survive make excellent soldiers. This is almost word-for-word the same as the description of Sardakur in Dune. Since late RT the genetic engineering bit has been added to this as well as the more monastic/knight in space concept, however some of the ideas around marines being recruited from very inhospitable climates remain. (On a side note I still prefer the original concept of marines and Dune Sardakur as I think it has more plausibility, but YMMV )
- Some areas of the background/history: The Butlerian Jihad in Dune and the war following the Dark Ages of Mankind in 40k both had the same output of banning AI.
- 'Psychic powers' with 'words of power' (think of the Bene Jesserit in Dune).
- Some of the naming ideas: Lasguns, Imperial Guard etc.
I'm sure there are many more! I'll repeat that I don't think Dune being such a strong influence on 40k detracts from the latter in any way. What it does mean is that some of the ideas within Dune were so cool that they baredd repeating, and many years later 40k has very much evolved into its own thing and continues to change (which is a good or bad thing depending on your perspective).
Yes on dune the reason the emperor can keep control is because of the sadukar, these are largely convicts sent to live on a world that was destroyed in a nuclear war and only the survivors are recruited (cos the others die). This is very similar to the journey a potential neophyte might under go before selection. This army is made of soldiers that are so talented as individuals and a force that no one can stand against them, despite much bigger numbers.
The fremen, already tough, are tought the secret fighting technique of the nuns and only in that way can they stand against the sadukar. But the main influence on 40K is that there is this small but super deadly fighting force that can waltz in a tear the place up and each one is worth 1000 of any other soldier.
I wonder if the the Tyranids take some influence. Before Herbert died I think the original dune series was leading up to a mysteries force from beyond the known galaxy approaching the human empire.
Apparently on of the original influence for Herbert to write the series was swing the was grasses are planted on beaches in California in order to make sand dunes grow, and did a load of research in this area which is why terraforming is so detailed in dune (I think that’s right).
Pacific wrote: To the OP - I think you can say that you didn't find those areas of 40k that correspond or were influenced by Dune interesting, but that doesn't change the fact that there was a lot of influence there (And actually, why should it matter where the influences come from? Nothing is created in a vacuum. Frank Herbert's ideas were no doubt influenced by material that he had read, even if he did place a novel spin on those ideas).
Dune is heavily inspired by Lesley Blanch's The Sabers of Paradise, down to using some names, terminology and the odd line.
See also the A (Brief" Look at the Background of Dune video from SFDebris (at 2:03):
Pacific wrote: Originally, prior to the tail-end of Rogue Trader, marines were 'chemically hardened' warriors that were created in the most inhospitable and dangerous climates imaginable, as well as from cut-throats and criminals; those that survive make excellent soldiers. This is almost word-for-word the same as the description of Sardakur in Dune. Since late RT the genetic engineering bit has been added to this as well as the more monastic/knight in space concept
I'm sorry, but I'm going to have to object a bit here. The 'original' version of Space Marines as drugged-up criminals didn't last until "the tail-end of Rogue Trader". It lasted barely five months. The version of Space Marines we know today (male children implanted with 19 artificial organs grown from geneseed, then trained with hypno-indoctrination and organised into chapters of 1000 battle-brothers in fortress-monasteries) appears essentially fully-formed in an article by Rick Priestley in WD98 in February 1988. IIRC, the Primarchs were added in Slaves to Darkness later that year. After that, the only changes were the fleshing out of certain chapters in 2nd edition.
A little bit of righteous anger now and then is good, actually. Don't trust a person who never gets angry.
I'd say that 40k has a lot in common with Dune rather than it is "like" Dune. Dune undoubtedly was a strong source of inspiration for 40k when it got started, and although they continue to have many commonalities, they have both diverged as they have each expanded. Looking at Dune compared to 40k when it first started, space marines are clearly based on Sardukar (sp?) convicts turned into the most fearsome warriors in the galaxy.
Other commonalities have already been touched on in this thread so I won't go into details, but:
God-Emperor
Feudal ruling class in Sci-fi setting with inter-House warfare and feuds
Navigators required for interstellar travel
Warrior nuns
Prohibition against thinking machines and a machine revolution in the in-universe history.
Then there is the terminology:
Lasgun (not ray-gun, blaster etc as might be used in other fiction)
Imperium (not empire, hegemony, federation etc).
That's just off the top of my head, but I've always seen a very clear connection between the two settings.
Sylvaneth A forest
III Legion 5000pts
XIII Legion 9000pts
Hive Fleet Khadrim 5000pts
Kabal of the Torn Lotus .4000pts
Coalition of neo Sacea 5000pts
Cadre Coronal Afterglow w1;d0;l0 
and that was entirely down to the look of the army. I only got back into 
AM/IG - 122nd Terrax Guard: 2094/3000pts
Skitarii/Cult Mech: 1380/2000pts
Khorne Daemonkin - Host of the Nervous Knife: 1701/2000pts
Orks - Rampage Axez: 1753/2000pts 
