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 Galas wrote:
Why is people ignoring the -1ap in the new version of the weapon?

Thats like... a not irrelevant change. The old weapon was useless outside the coven +1 to wound and +1 damage strat.

Yeah, it's probably why people are comparing it to a Heavy Bolter, and noting that unless it gets some kind of bonus against low-strength targets, it's worse than a heavy bolter agianst most profiles in the game.

So either, it has to cost less than a heavy bolter, or it needs some kind of a bonus from Poisoned Weapon that we don't know about to keep it on par.

As of right now, it's:

Worse vs non-vehicle T3
worse vs non-vehicle T4
Equal vs non-vehicle T5
better vs non-vehicle T6+

Worse vs all T values of vehicles (which functionally exist. Theoretically equal vs T10.)

Voss wrote:

 Galas wrote:
Why is people ignoring the -1ap in the new version of the weapon?

Thats like... a not irrelevant change. The old weapon was useless outside the coven +1 to wound and +1 damage strat.

Because it comes at a cost of halving the number of shots. That's a high cost for -1 AP, especially in a world where 'nah, we don't care about -1 AP' is a contagious ability among GW codex writers..

Half the shoots for double the damage and +1Ap (And a change from rapid fire to heavy, thats the true nerf here).

The thing is... what did the old weapon gave drukari? They were't an army with need of more rapid fire weapons to kill low quality hordes with ease. This actually gives them something they didn't had before.


Some of the complaints about Dark Eldar weapons options was how most of them were basically... the same, specially the Homunculus ones. Lets see if they have made a better job at making them different with this new codex.



Yes, this is true, is a worse heavy bolter with the exception of Tyranids, Demons and Custodes bikers. It will probably cost less points? Who knows. But what it does is being a new type of weapon for Drukari to use agaisnt X kind of targets. I know, I know, having dissintegrator cannons this looks unappealing but ...

Because it comes at a cost of halving the number of shots.

Those three shots - which is only applicable at sub-18" - was only netting you one damage before the save. 3 extra shots(now lost) was 2 hits, resulting in 1 wound that had no AP so everyone could save against it.

The new version is giving you the same amount of max damage potential at full 36" inch range and a -1 to AP.

I am not really seeing the "high cost" considering that Splinter Cannons are currently unimpressive unless you run some PA shenanigan.

I do feel like I need to add the caveat that I like to run glass "cannon" army that can kite so this is a net buff for me. For Coven and Cults this is only going to affect a single cannon on their venoms. Because if you are currently running Dual Cannons on a close combat army you are literally throwing away precious points.

 Eldarsif wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

 Eldarsif wrote:
I really like these changes and making Splinter Cannon a W2 killer makes sense as it provides Drukhari with some intermediary level weapons.

All the changes listed today are making me excited for the final reveal.

Are people really missing that this change is 6 shots D1 to 3 shots D2?

3xD2 shots with Ap -1 are going to provide better usage than the current Rapid Fire 3 of S1 Poison with no AP. This way I might actually put one in a kabalite squad(unless they decide to charge too many points for them).

It is also good to remember that the Rapid 3 procced on less than 18" in range which often resulted in getting your venoms into range of stuff that could threaten them. With this change you can potentially kite your venoms better. Are you going to lose some shots against W1 things? Yes, but considering that Marines of all sorts are "the thing" in the game I think the new version is going to be more useful and allow you to fit the venom in a more dedicated ranged role.



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 Galas wrote:
Why is people ignoring the -1ap in the new version of the weapon?

Thats like... a not irrelevant change. The old weapon was useless outside the coven +1 to wound and +1 damage strat.

Exactly this.

I have ton of Splinter Cannons that have been useless for a long time now due the original Rapid 3 change. With this - depending on cost - I might actually use Splinter Cannons in 5-mans in Splinter Cannon Venoms. Damn, I am getting flashback to the 5th edition Codex army.

I am well and truly curious why you believe a Heavy 36" range weapon better synergizes with kabalite warriors than a Rapid Fire 36" weapon with double the shots does.

Assuming both weapon types were properly costed, the functional use case of Venoms, Kabalites, and Scourges makes the old version better than the new version, who will either be taking a -1 to hit for moving and firing it or who will want to be 18" or closer most of the time anyway. The new version may be worth more of a look on Talos pain engines.

in the new Microboard 40k TM I rarely find an occasion where I want my venoms to be hanging out farther than 18" away from their targets. If they're carrying wyches, I want them closer than that. if they're carrying Kabalites, I want them within 12" or at least 18" for the blaster.

yes, the new version may be better than the currently overcosted version if it's properly costed. As can any weapon - as evidenced by the fact that the hilariously non-synergistic sniper rifle available on the otherwise all-melee Wrack unit is currently a competitive choice.


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Current drukhari actually have no ranged weapon that is particularly efficient at clearing out hordes. Kabalites are functionally armed with lasguns vs GEQ. A version that is actually good at clearing out hordes would actually provide a new tool drukhari currently don't have - this change simply moves the SC from inefficient anti-GEQ to inefficient Disintegrator.

It's also doubly hilarious coming right on the heels of the new DG and 'Crons, against whom you'd actually really like to have the old splinter cannon profile thanks to having something to shoot that's high toughness and not weak to multidamage weapons.

The new version is giving you the same amount of max damage potential at full 36" inch range and a -1 to AP.

This is exactly the kind of SM meta-warp I mentioned. It doesn't. At all. The max damage potential is absolutely gutted when facing anything without multiple wounds.

Its dark eldar. Why are you worried about 'max range?'

---
Think of it this way, do Dark Eldar really need to try to ape the Imperial Guard to win? Does it actually help them win?

Voss wrote:

The new version is giving you the same amount of max damage potential at full 36" inch range and a -1 to AP.

This is exactly the kind of SM meta-warp I mentioned. It doesn't. At all. The max damage potential is absolutely gutted when facing anything without multiple wounds.

Its dark eldar. Why are you worried about 'max range?'

---
Think of it this way, do Dark Eldar really need to try to ape the Imperial Guard to win? Does it actually help them win?

maybe drukhari will have crusade rules that allow them to steal the cheap, mass produced heavy bolters from their imperial guard victims and bolt them to their tanks for an improvement in firepower like british commandos chucking out their sten guns for MP40s the first chance they got in WW2.

I can understand the unappeal of the weapon changing "thematically" to something that doesnt feel very "dark eldary". Probably an assault 4 weapon would have been better.


But if 9th codex have done something for their armies is making the actually fun to play, and in the way those armies are supposed to play, necrons, death guard, etc... so I'm hopefull for dark eldar.

I am well and truly curious why you believe a Heavy 36" range weapon better synergizes with kabalite warriors than a Rapid Fire 36" weapon with double the shots does.

Assuming both weapon types were properly costed, the functional use case of Venoms, Kabalites, and Scourges makes the old version better than the new version, who will either be taking a -1 to hit for moving and firing it or who will want to be 18" or closer most of the time anyway. The new version may be worth more of a look on Talos pain engines.

in the new Microboard 40k TM I rarely find an occasion where I want my venoms to be hanging out farther than 18" away from their targets. If they're carrying wyches, I want them closer than that. if they're carrying Kabalites, I want them within 12" or at least 18" for the blaster.

Because that's how they performed admirably in before the 7th edition codex.

As I added in my previous post, if you are running a cult or a coven you are not going to even be running that many Splinter Cannons so your net loss on shots isn't that much as you should never be running dual Splinter Cannons on Venoms, plus the new damage potential is still not far from the current one(it is the same technically and even higher if you count the higher range for that damage). The current change actually makes it more viable to run dual SC on Venoms so you can use it as a gunboat along with SC Warriors in it with Cannonlites. Blasterlites are different and you will only be running one SC on your venom either and if you do run dual SC then congratulations your max potential damage went from 6 at short range to 6 at all range and a -1AP.

For naked Venoms(no crew) I consider this a net bonus.

Scourges are perhaps the weirdest unit in the book as nothing really fits them currently due to the rules. However, who knows, maybe they'll get a Retributor ruling which will make them more viable.

I just can't imagine this is worse than the 8th edition and 7th edition SC as they were pretty much garbage(I ended up buying a lot of new Venoms so I could run them with only one SC as all my older were dual SC).

Eventually the big question is whether SC will stay at 10 points or not.


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Voss wrote:

The new version is giving you the same amount of max damage potential at full 36" inch range and a -1 to AP.

Its dark eldar. Why are you worried about 'max range?'

Because when you were playing them in 5th and 6th you wanted to have the range on your enemies? Covens weren't always the go to troops? Because the max damage potential at max range for SC used to be 6 but got nerfed after 5th edition?

I don't know about any of you, but this change is giving me the old Dark Eldar vibe that got me into the army in 5th edition where you enjoyed having range for your ranged units. Where you ran Trueborns(now bring them back GW) with Splinter Cannons inside a dual SC Venom.

This is exactly the kind of SM meta-warp I mentioned. It doesn't. At all. The max damage potential is absolutely gutted when facing anything without multiple wounds.

The thing is we don't even know how far the new "2 wound" era is going to take us. We will have Space Marines, Chaos Space Marines(already two huge factions), and probably a ton of other elite units get boosted wounds.

I am just going to say it again: Splinter Cannons have been garbage for a long time and this change(depending on points) is actually making them attractive again.

I mean, I agree that if this SC is properly costed then it's better than the current version, which is overcosted. I just wish it didn't need to become a gakky heavy bolter to get reconsidered in terms of the cost. I'll most likely be running venoms with splinter rifles and sc still 100% of the time. If it's a free swap, then maybe if you're running shooty wracks then it could be worthwhile, but otherwise, nah.

It will take some mathing and practical experience to figure out since Splinter Cannons are being changed in roles from splinter rifle + to effectively a new weapon.

Yes, it is similar to the Heavy Bolter, but has different optimal targets just like how the Disintegrator is similar to a heavy bolter (Heavy 3 shots, Dam 2) but the -3 AP makes it better to use vs more elite units without invuls.

endlesswaltz123 wrote:
Drukhari articles are starting, must be announced for pre-order on Sunday

That would mean gw has caught up. When they announced delay de was to be march　release

the_scotsman wrote:

 Blackie wrote:

wict01 wrote:
So the new splinter cannon is just a heavy bolter that’ll never wound on a 3. Wish they’d just left it as it was.

Against T6+ it's better than a Heavy Bolter though.

+1 to wound vs T6 non-vehicle targets

-1 to wound vs T4 targets
-1 to wound vs T3 targets
-1 to wound vs T5 vehicle targets
-1 to wound vs T6+ vehicle targets

Kind of not a great combo. It needs to either be significantly less effective or, IMO, have some other rule that grants it a bonus against the kind of 'soft organic targets' that the SC is supposed to be good at killing.

I'd put forth that re-instanting the old "if your Poison Weapon has Strength equal to the T of the target, you get reroll to wound" would make the comparison slightly more equivalent, as it would effectively have "+1/2 to wound vs T3 targets" to somewhat make up for its other shortcomings.

It also wounds gretchins (T2) on 3s now!!! OP splinter cannons!!!

Hm.
My guess is that there will be some rules available to make the splinter cannon not count as heavy (either in the SC itself, or maybe through being embarked on a raider, maybe?), since speed has been an intrinsic part of the dark eldar-experience and the 9th codexes (so far) seems to have been good at focusing on, and getting, the feel/theme of the armies.

If they would work with splinter racks in the new codex, that would also help set them apart from the heavy bolter (and it would be cooool)

tneva82 wrote:

endlesswaltz123 wrote:
Drukhari articles are starting, must be announced for pre-order on Sunday

That would mean gw has caught up. When they announced delay de was to be march　release

The Underworlds roadmap implied they'd be going back to the normal release schedule in May.

If they continue the 2-week plan for now then the next release is out March 6th (Preview 21st, preorder, 27th) so DE will still be on schedule.

 Eldarsif wrote:


I do feel like I need to add the caveat that I like to run glass "cannon" army that can kite so this is a net buff for me. For Coven and Cults this is only going to affect a single cannon on their venoms. Because if you are currently running Dual Cannons on a close combat army you are literally throwing away precious points.

Talos can also take splinter cannons, so Coven stuff might be affected actually.

the_scotsman wrote:


That may have been a useful thing to do if they hadn't halved the shots at the range that the rest of your squad is going to be engaging at. Venoms and Kabalites are both still going to be trying to get within 12"

Marines would rather be shot at by a weapon with D2 and half the shots vs a weapon with D1, because marines have tons of W3 models as well as FNP abilities, -1 damage abilities, etc.

-1 pretty much doubles damage output vs marines though. Then d2.


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 ImAGeek wrote:

endlesswaltz123 wrote:
Drukhari articles are starting, must be announced for pre-order on Sunday

Most likely the following Sunday, as they’re still on fortnightly releases and we had a pre-order announcement yesterday.

If they still do fortnightly odds are de still on march though

 Blackie wrote:

 Eldarsif wrote:


I do feel like I need to add the caveat that I like to run glass "cannon" army that can kite so this is a net buff for me. For Coven and Cults this is only going to affect a single cannon on their venoms. Because if you are currently running Dual Cannons on a close combat army you are literally throwing away precious points.

Talos can also take splinter cannons, so Coven stuff might be affected actually.

Depends on whether Haywire remains as useful as before.

I like having more options. Old Cannon was just a slightly better rifle.

We need to see if Poison has changed or not, and the price.

So ummm... I've recently come into possession of 10 Venoms which I haven't yet built... should I be tooling them up with Splinter Cannons now?

chaos0xomega wrote:
So ummm... I've recently come into possession of 10 Venoms which I haven't yet built... should I be tooling them up with Splinter Cannons now?

I mean I would wait a couple weeks. IIRC the bottom weapon is just assembled separately, so you could always just assemble them 90% of the way and leave off the gun for a couple weeks until ZE NOOMBER CRUNCHINATORS let you know whether you get a +.005% mechanical benefit with one over the other.

chaos0xomega wrote:
So ummm... I've recently come into possession of 10 Venoms which I haven't yet built... should I be tooling them up with Splinter Cannons now?

As we don't know the point cost of the SC and the rest of the rules I suggest either waiting or magnetizing. I magnetize all my venoms now.

Obviously this is a small piece of the picture. A splinter cannon cannon is now a heavy hitter, not a horde clearer. That role will likely fall to the shredder.
Way too early to pass judgement

 bullyboy wrote:
Obviously this is a small piece of the picture. A splinter cannon cannon is now a heavy hitter, not a horde clearer. That role will likely fall to the shredder.
Way too early to pass judgement

It's kind of a tiresome chestnut to trot out that people are 'passing judgement' when it's pretty clear the discussion has just been limited to people reacting to the specific details that we have at this time - i.e. this new splinter cannon's performance vs its closest analogue from another 'dex and its previous incarnation.

For all those asking about points, it's worth remembering that the Munitorium Field Manual 2021 was released after Codex Drukhari went to print (and would have been released) and the points in it are almost certainly the ones in the book.

Do we have any rumors as to if this book continues the weird 9th Ed Codex arms race? To date it seems as if every new book isn't just better than the one before, but like frightfully so.

After the clearly, instantly problematic Dark Angels Codex, I am wondering if that is just the way we're moving forward... thus creating... a pseudo-balance, I guess?

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:
Do we have any rumors as to if this book continues the weird 9th Ed Codex arms race? To date it seems as if every new book isn't just better than the one before, but like frightfully so.

After the clearly, instantly problematic Dark Angels Codex, I am wondering if that is just the way we're moving forward... thus creating... a pseudo-balance, I guess?

You mean "is GW likely to continue the well-worn marketing technique of Manufactured Discontent ensuring that consumers are most dissatisfied with their current product when the company delivers an update to that product"?

I think it's safe to say, in the era of "I guess you'll just have to play your W1 chaos marines into your buddy's W2 space marines" the answer to that is "yes." and also, "obviously."

If GW could do something to ensure that their models slowly melt over time so you had to buy new ones every couple of years oh wait that was finecast wasn't it. *checks harlequins on shelf who have slowly turned into droopy noodles* yep, it was.

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:
Do we have any rumors as to if this book continues the weird 9th Ed Codex arms race? To date it seems as if every new book isn't just better than the one before, but like frightfully so.

After the clearly, instantly problematic Dark Angels Codex, I am wondering if that is just the way we're moving forward... thus creating... a pseudo-balance, I guess?

Are we talking about being stronger than their 8th edition dexes or do you mean each 9th edition dexes? If we're talking about 8th editions, yeah, they are going to stronger for sure, no question there.

As far as the 9th edition dexes against each other, with the exception of DA and Morty, they've been pretty well balanced against the others, IMO.

If the points on the field manual are the costs we will be seeing then a 2 splinter cannon vyvern would cost 75 points. (Or 85. I just asumed the first splinter cannon was baked into the price. Excuse me if I am wrong.)

Those points for a '2 heavy bolter razorback' is not bad is it? Not good either, but certanly in the ball park. A twin bolter razorback is 110.

 Niiai wrote:
If the points on the field manual are the costs we will be seeing then a 2 splinter cannon vyvern would cost 75 points. (Or 85. I just asumed the first splinter cannon was baked into the price. Excuse me if I am wrong.)

Those points for a '2 heavy bolter razorback' is not bad is it? Not good either, but certanly in the ball park. A twin bolter razorback is 110.

Depends on what extra ruling Venoms have. If they keep their invuln save and -1 to hit them I'll be a happy a gal with quite a few venoms.

Currently we just need more data. The current info is so little that we can at best compare it to existing rules.

I miss 5th edition night(?) shields. Who made them count as beeing 6" longer away from your opponents ranged weapons. Pure genius.