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Matt Swain wrote:Ok, fair point. To reply i'd say maybe there are cases where you have a small, high value target that needs taking out, but getting a large force thru to it would alert the enemy. Or you don't have time to assemble a major force before the target is out of reach.

That's what Space Marines and Scions are for.

So maybe a small, rapidly deployable force could be stealthily inserted behind enemy lines to take out the target quickly, without tipping the enemy off to move or fortify it. Thus you best of the best of the best forces with maximum level gear meant for those special missions when even tempestus scions aren;t quite enough.

That's what Space Marines are for.

In other words similar roles to what you might normally use SMs for, except for when you don't have any conveniently nearby.

If you don't have Space Marines or Scions conveniently nearby, how could you be sure you have power armoured human troops nearby?

I get the thought process ("what if we need elite infantry, but the existing elite infantry isn't around!"), but then you run into "if I don't have my normal elite infantry, why would I have the backup elite infantry either?".

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
I get the thought process ("what if we need elite infantry, but the existing elite infantry isn't around!"), but then you run into "if I don't have my normal elite infantry, why would I have the backup elite infantry either?".

Donald Rumsfeld wrote:“You go to war with the army you have, not the army you might want or wish to have at a later time.”

To be fair, having elite infantry under your own chain of command and having elite infantry in some external chain of command is pretty damn different.

All a Marine Chapter Master/Company Commander/Lieutenant/Sergeant has to say when an Imperial Guard commander (even a Lord General or Warmaster) asks for help is "No."

Boy, it'd be pretty nice to have some power-armor boys under your direct command wouldn't it?

So the marines might be "around" in a relative sense, but they're unhelpful because they're carrying out some secret mission, hunting the fallen, worshipping Khorne utterly unable to negotiate or form coherent thoughts, "Deus Vulting" around like it's the M1 instead of M40, not wanting to get off their motorcycles, or the Guard commander's actions aren't supported by a book he probably doesn't know exists.

It's something that isn't impossible, but it is certainly not very feasible at all. The setting is just so huge and varied that pretty much whatever style of Imperial Guard you can think of will probably exist somewhere - everything from barely equipped tribal warriors to high-tech full sci-fi soldiers - but at the same time power armour is something that just seems very, very unlikely. The non-Asartes users of power armour tend to be either very rich, powerful or high in status - Inquisitors, Tech Priests, Elite bodyguards for extremely powerful houses etc - as power armour is just something that is not easy to get hold of at all. Inquisitorial Acolytes and such would be one thing, but I can't see how or why the Imperial Guard would get hold of super rare and complex power armour suits just to give to standard human soldiers. It just isn't needed.

At best, I could see them having powered armour of some type if it's a more advanced regiment with access to more unique tech, something along the lines of House Van Saar from Necromunda with the suits the higher-up members use, but regardless it would still be something that's more of a one-off extremely rare special thing than something like "Mass-Produced basic power armour" to equip large numbers. Even without those difficulties in manufacturing and obtaining the armour, it's not like there's any proper standarization of guard equipment in the first place.

 Matt Swain wrote:

 Kcalehc wrote:
Why risk a very expensive suit of power armor, that might be hundreds of years old, when you can just throw more Guardsmen at the enemy, all of whom are easily replaceable?

Though it would not seem unreasonable that a sufficiently high ranking Guard commander may be able to acquire and wear a suit of something resembling power armor, he's probably not one of the ones who'll be fighting on the front lines, so unlikely to ever appear on the table top.

Ok, fair point. To reply i'd say maybe there are cases where you have a small, high value target that needs taking out, but getting a large force thru to it would alert the enemy. Or you don't have time to assemble a major force before the target is out of reach.

So maybe a small, rapidly deployable force could be stealthily inserted behind enemy lines to take out the target quickly, without tipping the enemy off to move or fortify it. Thus you best of the best of the best forces with maximum level gear meant for those special missions when even tempestus scions aren;t quite enough. Or hell, maybe they are tempestus scion élite forces.

In other words similar roles to what you might normally use SMs for, except for when you don't have any conveniently nearby.

That's what Space Marines and Stormtroopers are both for in imperial military doctrine. There doesn't need to be a third units of overlapping capability just in case one isn't available.


As far as SoB and Ad Mech power armor goes, AM PA is built by it's wearer and to some degree represents the grafting of armor plates onto themselves, and the church [and Ordo Hereticus] is the most stupendously wealthy organization in the Imperium and wants to show that off by having it's troops armored in very expensive armor for a shock-and-awe effect on the populace to remind them of the glory and power of the church.

I don't think there'd be a place in doctrine for an IG PA unit. For special operations, you have stormtroopers, and if that's not enough you're supposed to requisition the support of a Space Marine unit and tell them what needs doing and they'll figure out how to do it.

Yeah, there are many possibilities for when the average guardsman doesn't cut it. Tempestus scions would be the first choice. If you just need troops that can take a beating, Ogryns might work too. If that doesn't work, the go to the Space Marines: it's supposed to be their job to take care of the hard missions. If they're not available, the Adeptus Mechanicus has a flavor of cyborg for every occasion. If they don't want to help then the Adepta Sororitas might. If you want shock and awe, there are always Knight houses that could send a few giant robots your way... Finally, there's the inquisition and assassin orders if you want someone removed quietly. Those guys could be hard to contact but you never know...

The Imperium isn't short on commandos/special troops of all kind. It would definitely be more convenient if the IG had them all under their command, but that's just the nature of the Imperium's forces: a giant mess of convoluted alliances and alliegances, not a rational and efficient army.

beast_gts wrote:

The_Grim_Angel wrote:
Are you talking about the Solar Pattern Void Armour, used by the Solar Auxilia during/since the conquest of the Solar System?

They're not - Fire Caste is a 40k novel. They're referring to the Arkan Confederates -

Lexicanum wrote:The Arkan Confederates employ modified patterns of Sentinels, designed with hooves suited for Providence's savannahs in place of the standard claws.[1a] Locally produced heirloom power armor known as Stormsuits and Thundersuits are employed as heavy infantry, operating outside of the standard company structure in a noble brotherhood known as the Steamblood Zouaves. Each suit is unique to its bearer, though most are armed with heavy stubbers and melee weapons such as saws or drills. Though tough, the suits are unsubtle and difficult to maintain, closer to status symbols than military equipment[1b]

Tech-Priests attached to the Arkan Confederates, named professors by Guardsmen after their pre-Imperium equivalents,[1b] were known to make significant alterations to regimental equipment, such as retrofitting standard Sentinels with jump packs and stabilizers to emulate Elysian Drop Sentinels.[1a]

Thanks, beast_gts!

To all of those wagging their fingers at a group of power-armored humans in the IG, I feel some of you are being a bit harsh. As shown in the quote above, guard regiments having access to some amount of power armor isn't totally out of the question. It's unusual, sure. I wouldn't want it to be represented in the codex (except in the form of counts-as bullgryn or something; good suggestion), but it's not an absurd idea. Different regiments have access to different resources and do things differently. If you have a bunch of bullgryn available to take a beating, you probably use those. But if you happen to be from the planet whose nobility cut a deal with the mechanicum in exchange for an order of power armor, you might use the power armor guys instead.

If the situation calls for power armor and you have power armor, then you'll probably use the power armor. You just... probably don't have power armor. Unless you're extra double super special for whatever reason.

Another important distinction is the difference between powered armour, and power armour in the setting. The latter is the armour well all know, it doesn't mean other suits aren't around that work in a similar fashion, most likely not as durable but still serve a purpose, and especially so in a combat situation.

Whilst incredibly rare, the hunting rigs of the spyrers are just but one example, powered armour but not power armour (and more rare than the latter also but that is beside the point).

Yes there is at least one specific regiment in the lore (novels)

https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Arkan_Confederates

Locally produced heirloom power armor known as Stormsuits and Thundersuits are employed as heavy infantry, operating outside of the standard company structure in a noble brotherhood known as the Steamblood Zouaves. Each suit is unique to its bearer, though most are armed with heavy stubbers and melee weapons such as saws or drills. Though tough, the suits are unsubtle and difficult to maintain, closer to status symbols than military equipment

sorry just noticed these have already been flagged up

 argonak wrote:
Don’t the plugs imply that sisters have some sort of black carapace? That’s a pretty big ret con.

The plugs are not the black carapace:

Phase 19: The most distinctive implant, it resembles a film of black plastic that is implanted directly beneath the skin of the Marine's torso in sheets. It hardens on the outside and sends invasive neural bundles into the Marine's body. After the organ has matured the recipient is then fitted with neural sensors and interface points cut into the carapace's surface.[1][2a][3] This allows a Space Marine to interface directly with his Power Armour. Without the Black Carapace many of the systems of the power armour will not function. While driving the vehicles of the Chapter, special spinal interface plugged into power armour and Black Carapace to provide the Space Marine an intuitive 'feel' for vehicles systems and controls, literally making him a part of his vehicle.


The carapace is designed to create a body-wide neural interface between the plugs and the armour, so that every neurological signal is read by the armour.

The plugs themselves are neurolinks, like the mind impulse unit which princeps use to command titans and auxiliary weapons (inquisitor covenant has an MIU linked psycannon on his shoulder).


Therefore, anyone can wear power armour, but only someone with the black carapace can wear the armour created for the astartes - or at least many of its systems.


The difference being that a marine moves in their armour like a second skin due to the BC, while a human has neurallinks that send messages to the suit to move as they do. This makes power armour less elegant on a normal human.

You can wear a bodyglove with interface plugs instead of the Black carapace - Inquisitor Amberely does with her artifcer armour - but she is an Inquisitor so can get whatever she wants. Its also a pain to get into, smelly and requies specialist maitainance

I made an NPC regiment that used power armor on its troops for one of my Only War games; the PC's regiment (from the same world) had power armor for some officers and senior NCOs, and the PCs were issued some for one mission where they had to assault a heavily fortified enemy position. It was very infrastructure-heavy to maintain; I think the suits had a five-hour battery life? The point was that their regiment, which was operating on a foreign world, didn't have the infrastructure necessary to make sure that vast amounts of power armor were available for their troops.

Tiennos wrote:The Imperium isn't short on commandos/special troops of all kind. It would definitely be more convenient if the IG had them all under their command, but that's just the nature of the Imperium's forces: a giant mess of convoluted alliances and alliegances, not a rational and efficient army.

Exactly - from a field commander's perspective, having power armoured troops would be lovely to have, but so would aircraft, tanks, and generally *all* bases covered. And that's something the Imperium just doesn't do on the regular.

On the Imperial macro-scale, they have power armoured shock troops, even if they're not always answerable to the human commanders in the field, and that's good enough to not worry about creating *another* shock troops unit.

Wyldhunt wrote:To all of those wagging their fingers at a group of power-armored humans in the IG, I feel some of you are being a bit harsh. As shown in the quote above, guard regiments having access to some amount of power armor isn't totally out of the question. It's unusual, sure. I wouldn't want it to be represented in the codex (except in the form of counts-as bullgryn or something; good suggestion), but it's not an absurd idea. Different regiments have access to different resources and do things differently. If you have a bunch of bullgryn available to take a beating, you probably use those. But if you happen to be from the planet whose nobility cut a deal with the mechanicum in exchange for an order of power armor, you might use the power armor guys instead.

Oh, don't get me wrong, there's definitely precedent for *some* Guard regiments to have powered armour and their own unique resources!
It's more that having power armoured troops is much more of a luxury afforded by the homeworld you came from and their specific armament than any kind of wider Imperial armament scheme or requisition for power armoured troops.

So, sure, the 137th Generican Heavy Infantry regiment might have some unique powered armour troops, but you won't find them in a Cadian regiment, because power armour isn't part of the Cadian armament, it's part of the Generican armament.

If the situation calls for power armor and you have power armor, then you'll probably use the power armor. You just... probably don't have power armor. Unless you're extra double super special for whatever reason.

Exactly - you make use with what you have, and most Guard commanders simply *don't* have power armour, and would be forced to make do with begging the Scions/Astartes to do their job for them, or getting it done by some other means - in the same way that a regiment without tanks would have to make do without them or beg an armoured force to do their job.

Even if they had the resources to outfit IG units with power armor, there is a very good reason in the fluff not to. The Imperium is inefficient partly (mostly?) by design. The Imperial Guard to not have their own fleets, the Imperial Navy doesn't have its own armies (although they do have forces to protect their ships), etc. The IG getting hold of power armor would mean that they could potentially upend the "balance" of power between the various branches of the imperium (balance used here as a very, very relative term). Or, to put it another way, the other branches of the Imperium are too jealous of their resources to allow the IG to become so powerful.

Another good fluff reason, the Mechanicus do not have the resources to devote to manufacturing and maintaining all those suits of power armor. Think about it - even their own personal armies don't use power armor. Just some thoughts on the topic.

Well, IG elite power armor could be limited in a lot of ways. like instead of a reactor powering it for years it might have a battery giving it a few days op time at most.

Still, good cases for not having it. I was wondering if it was another land raider situation where no one had the guts to counter the emperor's order about them being reserved for space marines due to a shortage that no longer existed.

During the heresy on Istvaan III during the purge there was an STC that was man sized power armor. The enemy forces that fought Horus there used it on its entire army. Although considering that Horus virus bombed the entire planet and killed all the loyal legionaries (to the Emporer) he deployed planet side I imagine the technology is lost forever. Think how crazy it would have been to get that STC for the imperium the entire AM would be almost unbeatable.

I could certainly see Scions getting access to some sort of power armour. Though it'd probably be big, chunky and not all that high tech. Kind of like a scaled down version of the armour Centurions wear. Little more than a glorified sentinel meant for when the covert ops need to go a little less covert. Probably armed with a pair of special weapon class armamants. Or maybe a hot shot minigun or some such.

As for regular guard, I doubt it. The lasgun is the universe's most basic, reliable firearm for a reason. Some guard regiments are little more than backwater savages. Not sure if giving them power armour would be of use. Then again, I guess space wolves get it sooo.

Stalked21 wrote:
During the heresy on Istvaan III during the purge there was an STC that was man sized power armor. The enemy forces that fought Horus there used it on its entire army. Although considering that Horus virus bombed the entire planet and killed all the loyal legionaries (to the Emporer) he deployed planet side I imagine the technology is lost forever. Think how crazy it would have been to get that STC for the imperium the entire AM would be almost unbeatable.

Human wearable power armour isn't a lost art, it exists in 40k.
Most notably on the Sisters of Battle.
It's just rare.

How rare is rare though in the imperium.... Plasma weaponary is rare but if you have the resources, you can field quite a lot of them and they are still available on the market, just costly. I think the same of power armour, there are ways to get hold of it, or versions of it at least.

In remarks to letting scions have access to a form of it, I think I'd prefer them to have access to very highly specialised and customised drop sentinels of some sort, that would fit the aesthetic more.

 endlesswaltz123 wrote:
How rare is rare though in the imperium....

It's rare enough that it's not in Necromunda (even though displacer fields are). Not sure about the RPGs.

iirc Light Power Armour in Dark Heresy II was 'Very Rare', so one step rarer than Tempestus Scion Carapace and the same level as a grav-gun.
Although rarity was as much a factor of game balance as actual rarity - there was no currency, if you could find the weapon you could just take it.

And of course many Guard regiments will have a Ad Mech Enginseers in Power Armour.

Occassional guard regiments are going to be equipped in some form of it but they will be few and far between the same as some lore units have laser reflective armour or chainmail or single shot las fusils.

In the actual lore, the Guard are one of the most diverse armies in the universe - Its partly that GW focussed on Cadian style units that this is not reflected in options, rules or models.

It's kind of funny to be like "power armor is too rare" while the Imperial Guard rolls out with entire regiments of Baneblades.

Like, surely human-wearable power armor is less rare than the holy god-tanks each of which is a precious irreplaceable relic.

 endlesswaltz123 wrote:
Whilst incredibly rare, the hunting rigs of the spyrers are just but one example, powered armour but not power armour (and more rare than the latter also but that is beside the point).

They were also Xenos tech rather than Imperial.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
It's kind of funny to be like "power armor is too rare" while the Imperial Guard rolls out with entire regiments of Baneblades.

Like, surely human-wearable power armor is less rare than the holy god-tanks each of which is a precious irreplaceable relic.

Apparently not, at least for the Guard.

In the current fluff, the guard max out at carapace for.wide.scale deployment purposes. On Necromunda, the new Van Saar additions and the Orlock.Wreckers are basically power armour, and are not restricted in any meaningful sense throughout the gangs.

The role of power armoured specialist troops in terms of the game is fulfilled through sororitas and Marines. You could easily represent Guard specialists using marine or sororitas rules, except then you get hamstrung by losing g the monoculture bonuses.

The simplest explanation is that in the game, Guard didn't have power armour so they didn't get it in lore.

Militia forces in the Age of Darkness do get the option to take power armour but the Imperials Militia is not the Imperial Army. Power armour Militia is supposed to represent the local soldiers of very rare planets that survived the Dark Age of Technology relatively intact and the vast majority are less well equipped than "modern" guard regiments. The whole point of the 30k Militia army was just to let people use their 40k cultists/guard/beastmen/empire/dwarfs/whatever they wanted. Plus with the sheer variety of power armour variants, it means pretty much nothing to say they have some. It can range from an armoured exo-suit like the Orlock wreckers to the state of the art armour worn by the Primarchs. But unless you want a massively bloated ruleset its easiest to just bring them under the same banner.

Also, Tech-priests don't actually wear power armour, its just to represent their mechanical upgraded bodies.

But unless you want a massively bloated ruleset its easiest to just bring them under the same banner.

Looks hard at the massive bloated Marine range and huge pile of supplements......

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
It's kind of funny to be like "power armor is too rare" while the Imperial Guard rolls out with entire regiments of Baneblades.

Like, surely human-wearable power armor is less rare than the holy god-tanks each of which is a precious irreplaceable relic.

They're not really that irreplaceable or relicy, though to be fair neither is power armor. There's a continuous new production of baneblades, as well as expanding production capacity. The production capacity is just insufficient to meet present requirements.

Power Armor is sufficiently unavailable that equipping the entire stormtrooper force with it, which is substantially larger than the Sororitas and Astartes combined or there is demand for Baneblades, is probably infeasible, and there isn't a good reason to incorporate or to permit the incorporation of an even-more-special-forces functionally redundant to the Astartes in the IG doctrine.

The Imperial military machine of the Guard, Navy, and Astartes is also structured such that it's various arms are both at odds with each other and deficient in critical capabilities without each other in order to ensure that they always compete with each other and none can singularly amass the power to threaten the present ruling regime, so the Guard adding that capability wouldn't fly over well at all either.

Power armour comes in different forms, where know there are numerous versions of power armour for space marines since the heresy and Horus met the Technocracy and discovered they were wearing an early version of power armour. Basically it dates back to the times of STC and has been modified since.

I expect the technical answer is if you have access to the write people or STC anyone can have power armour. Not the version SM use as that requires the black carapace to use it (or at least use it properly).

There is very much the possibility that use of power armour has become dogmatic and for religious reason only given to SM and a few rare worthy non SM individuals.

I don’t really believe resources are an issues for the imperium. Countless planets and civilisations are scavenged for resources and few decisions are made by the imperium in such a utilitarian way

Aside from the cost of the actual armour itself you also have to consider the logistics, maintenance and supply issues. Having power armoured equipped troops means you need spare parts, spare suites, specialist tech-priests who can repair and maintain it, people who can train the troops to use it etc. and the ability to keep this up in combat conditions. That means you have to have supply chains that can ship you spare parts and new suites on a regular basis.

Marines and Sisters have that kind of infrastructure. Guard do not. Their entire organisation is based around what they can supply and maintain in large quantities. That's why they use lasguns (the AK-47 of 40k) rather than something more effective. Even if they considered it worthwhile splashing out to give power armour to an elite unit it probably just isn't practical to put in place the support structure to keep it working for such a small part of the overall force.

Rogue traders, Navigator nobles, inquisitors and the like have the contacts and resources to throw at it and probably care more about the prestige and about "having the best" rather than whether it actually justifies the cost.