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I've actually had pretty good results with wraithbone and grey seer sprays. Only thing I've found that's better in a spray can for priming is duplicolor sandable primer (NOT the filler primer).

Like so many have said, rattlecans aren't quite as simple as "shake for a few seconds and spray". You really do need to follow the directions and shake them for at LEAST as long as they suggest, and spray them at the approximate distance they suggest.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

By contrast, I don't particularly like Vallejo's primer. It doesn't bond particularly well to the plastic substrate and has a gummy/rubbery quality if hairy brushed. I tried it a few times through an airbrush and when I tried masking the models, the primer lifted.

It's not really primer primer. It's liquid rubber. You're basically spraying a condom onto the mini and its adhesion relies largely on fully enclosing the mini, not on eating into the material. Tear it and it'll peel off like dead skin. Finish is smooth af tho.

I like the Gray Seer spray but you need to warm the can and shake it thoroughly for best results

 lord_blackfang wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

By contrast, I don't particularly like Vallejo's primer. It doesn't bond particularly well to the plastic substrate and has a gummy/rubbery quality if hairy brushed. I tried it a few times through an airbrush and when I tried masking the models, the primer lifted.

It's not really primer primer. It's liquid rubber. You're basically spraying a condom onto the mini and its adhesion relies largely on fully enclosing the mini, not on eating into the material. Tear it and it'll peel off like dead skin. Finish is smooth af tho.

Yeah, but you can get primers that DO stick really well and area also very smooth, like Tamiya's lacquer primer.

GW is fine over plastics in my experience.

Terrible over metals though, as (like many people have said in this thread) GW sprays are not primers.

For metals, I used to use Rust-Oleum, but have been using Krylon Ultra-flat recently. Kinda curious on their colored matte and satin paint/primers.

 skchsan wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
Some people argue that primers have extra things put in that make them primers, but it's not necessarily true, primer doesn't have a strict definition and can mean different things to different companies. If a company advertises a paint as a primer, it just means they think it's good for laying down an undercoat in whatever circumstance they are advertising it, it doesn't necessarily mean it has any special additives or formulation.

As for the price, meh, GW primers aren't terribly overpriced in the context of hobby products. GW primers out here are $32 for 400ml, Tamiya primers are ~$20 for 180ml, so per litre, the GW primers are actually cheaper. Not as cheap as what you'll buy from a hardware store, but on par with what you'll buy from a hobby store.

Actually, there is a difference in formulation between the two if we were to get down to technical level.

The improvement in formula, and the proliferation that ensued, of two-in-one paints heavily contributes to the blurring of the line between primers & paints. However, at the very core of it, primer is polymers suspended in solvent, while paints are pigments that are suspended in mediums, which in turn are suspended in solvent. Two-in-one paints are ones that typically use polymers used in primers as the medium to suspend the pigments in. So, colored primers are a type of colored spray paint, but not all colored spray paints can be said to be colored primers.

The difference in formulation is starkly apparent when stripping the paint. GW's spray slips right off along with the layers of paint on top of it, whereas 'true' primers are usually left behind in the crevices.

I swore to myself I would never spend $22 after tax for a can of spray paint. That is, until I tried one of my colleague's. I describe it as the perfect union of primer and spray paint.

I wouldn't go as far as to say it's worth the money, but it's actually a really good product when used properly.

I think you're assigning meaning to the word primer that doesn't exist to the paint companies selling them. I've used "primers" that stripped off easily, and I've used "paints" that were a bitch to strip.

GW's current line of spray paints use a very strong solvent, they stink to high heaven way worse than the GW sprays I used a decade or so ago. I haven't tried to strip any of my models sprayed with the current line of GW sprays with alcohol, but they won't scratch off the surface of the plastic easily using a finger nail (though you can mar the surface texture of them).

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 skchsan wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
Some people argue that primers have extra things put in that make them primers, but it's not necessarily true, primer doesn't have a strict definition and can mean different things to different companies. If a company advertises a paint as a primer, it just means they think it's good for laying down an undercoat in whatever circumstance they are advertising it, it doesn't necessarily mean it has any special additives or formulation.

As for the price, meh, GW primers aren't terribly overpriced in the context of hobby products. GW primers out here are $32 for 400ml, Tamiya primers are ~$20 for 180ml, so per litre, the GW primers are actually cheaper. Not as cheap as what you'll buy from a hardware store, but on par with what you'll buy from a hobby store.

Actually, there is a difference in formulation between the two if we were to get down to technical level.

The improvement in formula, and the proliferation that ensued, of two-in-one paints heavily contributes to the blurring of the line between primers & paints. However, at the very core of it, primer is polymers suspended in solvent, while paints are pigments that are suspended in mediums, which in turn are suspended in solvent. Two-in-one paints are ones that typically use polymers used in primers as the medium to suspend the pigments in. So, colored primers are a type of colored spray paint, but not all colored spray paints can be said to be colored primers.

The difference in formulation is starkly apparent when stripping the paint. GW's spray slips right off along with the layers of paint on top of it, whereas 'true' primers are usually left behind in the crevices.

I swore to myself I would never spend $22 after tax for a can of spray paint. That is, until I tried one of my colleague's. I describe it as the perfect union of primer and spray paint.

I wouldn't go as far as to say it's worth the money, but it's actually a really good product when used properly.

I think you're assigning meaning to the word primer that doesn't exist to the paint companies selling them. I've used "primers" that stripped off easily, and I've used "paints" that were a bitch to strip.

GW's current line of spray paints use a very strong solvent, they stink to high heaven way worse than the GW sprays I used a decade or so ago. I haven't tried to strip any of my models sprayed with the current line of GW sprays with alcohol, but they won't scratch off the surface of the plastic easily using a finger nail (though you can mar the surface texture of them).

With DYI paints if it's a primer it is clearly marked primer. Otherwise it'll say "paint" or "paint and primer in one". I know this because as I type this I am staring at 3 different colors of Rustoleum spray primer (it says black primer, grey primer, and brick red primer" on the spray can and I am also staring at 3 cans of paint; one says "Gloss Rose Pink paint", one says "Satin Poppy Red paint" and one says "Antique Gold paint". I know if I spray the last 3 colors over bare metal they won't bond all that well because they aren't formulated to do so. It even says on the can use over a primer first.

Nobody is calling GW paint primer, nobody is falsely labeling DYI primers as primers if they don't say primers on the cans. But to claim somebody is assigning a meaning to a product that doesn't exist when said product clearly is labeled as such is arguing for arguments sake.

When used properly a "primer" (as clearly marked on can/bottle as such) should never rub off plastic, metal, glass, resin, etc. GW sprays might be formulated to stick to their plastic without primer but I've never seen any documentation anywhere to support that theory so if I was bold enough to drop that kind of money on a can of lets say "Blood Angels Red" I'm not going to spray it directly over pewter or resin because I'm sure it'd come off just by looking at it. Hell, I'd probably undercoat plastic models with my can of Rustoleum Black Primer because I know, unless I use it improperly, it's not going to flake, obscure detail, or reject the Citadel color.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
I think you're assigning meaning to the word primer that doesn't exist to the paint companies selling them. I've used "primers" that stripped off easily, and I've used "paints" that were a bitch to strip.

Nonsense. Primer sprays spit out SURFACES. Paint sprays spit out COLORS.

Combi color primer sputs out SURFACES that have COLOR on them.

jivardi wrote:
I've since been using Stynylrez primers through my airbrush. They lay down great, even with a hairy stick.

They are also cheap enough (and most hobby/art stores have sales all time if you shop around) that I don't sweat the price of them.

Yeah I really have enjoyed the Stynylrez bottle I have so far. The only problem is the grey is close enough to GW grey plastic I sometimes over spray!

I've had good luck with Vallejo Black, but the Light Grey was trash. One thing to keep in mind though is these air brush capable primers are fragile and can't take temperature swings in storage/transport.

jivardi wrote:
When used properly a "primer" (as clearly marked on can/bottle as such) should never rub off plastic, metal, glass, resin, etc.

Primers for different substrates require different concoctions though. A solvent that eats plastic might not stick well to metal, resins have a very different surface energies to metals so sometimes a primer designed for metal doesn't work well on resin, glass primers and wood primers are completely different animals again. Then it also depends what you plan to spray on top of it, if you're going to be painting with a lacquer then it will bite to surfaces that acrylics won't, so you might want a primer that's smoother for the former. If you're using an enamel top coat, it sticks well to low surface energy substrates compared to acrylics, so you can go with a primer that leaves a lower surface energy.

But as far as I'm aware, there's no rules around what can be labelled as a primer, so yeah, I've bought things labelled as primers that didn't stick to much at all. A company could think "this would make a good preparatory coat for our other paint line, X", so label it as a primer.

GW's modern range of sprays sticks to plastic exceptionally well, I've never tried them on metals though. GW's modern sprays are definitely different animals to their older ones, so if you're basing your opinions on those you might be a bit out of date.

My point is mostly just don't get hung up on terminology, for the most part paint terminology isn't regulated so companies can be misleading in their labelling at times.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

jivardi wrote:
When used properly a "primer" (as clearly marked on can/bottle as such) should never rub off plastic, metal, glass, resin, etc.

Primers for different substrates require different concoctions though. A solvent that eats plastic might not stick well to metal, resins have a very different surface energies to metals so sometimes a primer designed for metal doesn't work well on resin, glass primers and wood primers are completely different animals again. Then it also depends what you plan to spray on top of it, if you're going to be painting with a lacquer then it will bite to surfaces that acrylics won't, so you might want a primer that's smoother for the former. If you're using an enamel top coat, it sticks well to low surface energy substrates compared to acrylics, so you can go with a primer that leaves a lower surface energy.

But as far as I'm aware, there's no rules around what can be labelled as a primer, so yeah, I've bought things labelled as primers that didn't stick to much at all. A company could think "this would make a good preparatory coat for our other paint line, X", so label it as a primer.

GW's modern range of sprays sticks to plastic exceptionally well, I've never tried them on metals though. GW's modern sprays are definitely different animals to their older ones, so if you're basing your opinions on those you might be a bit out of date.

My point is mostly just don't get hung up on terminology, for the most part paint terminology isn't regulated so companies can be misleading in their labelling at times.

For me it comes down to price. $20-30 for a spray paint is just nonsense to me. I don't mind paying premium price for their actual models as, outside of some other brands resin (creature caster), they have the best looking minis on the market so I'm willing to pay extra over say other companies miniature. I have had good luck with DYI paints/primers that are 75% cheaper than GW so I see no reason to switch. For paint colors that Krylon doesn't make I have an airbrush that I can use to apply the non-spray Citadel colors with.

The only "hobby" spray I use is Testors Dullcote. I haven't experienced a flatter matte color than that.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
My point is mostly just don't get hung up on terminology, for the most part paint terminology isn't regulated so companies can be misleading in their labelling at times.

That's just false advertisement then. Primers have a specific function. It's not about coverage or opaqueness. It's about it's capacity to provide a sublayer that allows two materials of different physical properties to be joined together (i.e. water based paint on a metal pipe), just like how emulsifier is required to mix oil and water.

This is why many of us here call GW's sprays "not a primer, but functions as one", because it is not ADVERTISED as a primer yet serves it's purpose as one. There's no issue here, but there is a problem when a can of spray claims to be a primer but it's actually a spray paint.

I might be misremembering but I think long ago GW did advertise their paints as primers, at least I remember hearing the terminology thrown around. Now it's just "abbadon black", "corax white", "grey seer", "wraithbone". I don't even think the cans say primer.

But semantics aside GW might make good sprays. The OP said they were not impressed with Grey Seer, others have had better luck. Could be a bad can, could be user error in applying it, could just be buyers remorse for shelling out that kind of cash.

Even if you don't like the idea of a DYI primer to undercoat your models there are alternatives to GW sprays. I saw a youtube video where the creator prefers graffiti spray paints like Montana for paints and for about the same price as Rustoleum, Duplicolor, or Krylon. Unfortunately the closest I can get is some artist grade sprays at Hobby Lobby.The brand is Ironlak. It's a water/alcohol based paint. They smell funny but still usable inside. They run about $6/can. Might try a few more colors like black or white for undercoating.