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I don’t have any where suitable for airbrushing at the minute and I tend to prime in light grey for most minis. So I bought some grey seer for quick priming and used it for the first time today and am not impressed.

It was very thin and the coverage wasn’t great. Because of this is siding get to recess areas very well meaning to prime the recessed areas I had to spray more which applied more primer to areas already primed thus filling the detail a bit.

I think I have a workable spray job but I think I’ll just keep priming by brush. Unless anyone can tell me what I’ve done wrong

Wilko do a light grey Primer that is half the price and unlike GW and army painter sprays, I've never had a single issue with it. So can recommend it instead of grey seer

FWIW that's not a primer, its a base.
I like Vallejo polyurethane primer, dries super thin and is quite durable.

 maxwin wrote:
FWIW that's not a primer, its a base.
I like Vallejo polyurethane primer, dries super thin and is quite durable.

So I should be using a primer first? I don’t think GW tell you this


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 maxwin wrote:
FWIW that's not a primer, its a base.
I like Vallejo polyurethane primer, dries super thin and is quite durable.

Going to wilkos tomorrow might check it out


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I have been using GSW primers applied by brush, they are great, easy to apply and shrink so follow the shape of the mini. But of course it’s not a quick process.

GW sprays are technically not primers. They are base coat, but it more or less serves the functions of primers, which is to put down a layer that will readily accept paint.

Also, grey sprays are hard to discern between the 'base' grey plastic and the spray's grey under certain light, usually, under the sunlight (outdoors where you're spraying them). The difference is stronger under indoor luminaires.

But, yes, GW spray lay down REALLY thin with almost no texture. If this isn't what you're after, I would try other 'true' primers.

I swear by Hycote grey plastic primer. It's great and a nice mid grey that you can easily.go light or dark.from.

Also, you have to really shake rattle cans. Like, REALLY shake it until it feels like you're shaking a marble in an empty can.

There are a lot of mixed views on primer brands - some swear by automotive primers, etc. I personally like the Armory brand ($3~6 USD, heavy eggshell texture) and Army Painter ($12~16 USD, light eggshell texture), but MANY will tell you that these are absolute garbage of primers, but as always YMMV.

I'm not a fan of the price gouge. $20 for a can of paint. That can had better also change my vehicle's oil and wash my dishes as well for that price.

But yeah, Citadel sprays are paints, not paint/primers. Go with ANY DYI brand of primer first. I like Rustoleum Camo colors. Not true primers but they are formulated to stick to plastic and at $5 per can are reasonable.

GW just overcharges because they can

jivardi wrote:
I'm not a fan of the price gouge. $20 for a can of paint. That can had better also change my vehicle's oil and wash my dishes as well for that price.

But yeah, Citadel sprays are paints, not paint/primers. Go with ANY DYI brand of primer first. I like Rustoleum Camo colors. Not true primers but they are formulated to stick to plastic and at $5 per can are reasonable.

GW just overcharges because they can

The way I see it, it is expensive, but its the premium for a unique product as there's really not a product that yields similar results (super thin, no texture, comes in a can). It's like airbrushed on primer without the need for the full airbrush set up and better adhesion, particularly against pewter minis.

I like grey seer spray. It goes on buttery smooth.

I use Grey Seer spray and really like it, however, the caveat to this is I use it as a zenithal, on top of a black primer.

 skchsan wrote:

jivardi wrote:
I'm not a fan of the price gouge. $20 for a can of paint. That can had better also change my vehicle's oil and wash my dishes as well for that price.

But yeah, Citadel sprays are paints, not paint/primers. Go with ANY DYI brand of primer first. I like Rustoleum Camo colors. Not true primers but they are formulated to stick to plastic and at $5 per can are reasonable.

GW just overcharges because they can

The way I see it, it is expensive, but its the premium for a unique product as there's really not a product that yields similar results (super thin, no texture, comes in a can). It's like airbrushed on primer without the need for the full airbrush set up and better adhesion, particularly against pewter minis.

Enamel based spray primers offer all of that and more, and are under half the price if you buy off brand like the one I mentioned.

If Wilko sold a black one I would literally never use anything else, the grey one is a dream to use. Amazingly thin coverage, no texture whatsoever, never clogs the nozzle, very durable and mini paint sticks to it extremely well. The difference in usability between them and pretty much every acrylic primer I have ever used is night and day

I tried the other Contrast spray, the ivory one, and found it way thick and, to my great surprise and annoyance, Contrast-repellant. Vallejo polyurethane is just so much better.

Cynista wrote:

 skchsan wrote:

jivardi wrote:
I'm not a fan of the price gouge. $20 for a can of paint. That can had better also change my vehicle's oil and wash my dishes as well for that price.

But yeah, Citadel sprays are paints, not paint/primers. Go with ANY DYI brand of primer first. I like Rustoleum Camo colors. Not true primers but they are formulated to stick to plastic and at $5 per can are reasonable.

GW just overcharges because they can

The way I see it, it is expensive, but its the premium for a unique product as there's really not a product that yields similar results (super thin, no texture, comes in a can). It's like airbrushed on primer without the need for the full airbrush set up and better adhesion, particularly against pewter minis.

Enamel based spray primers offer all of that and more, and are under half the price if you buy off brand like the one I mentioned.

If Wilko sold a black one I would literally never use anything else, the grey one is a dream to use. Amazingly thin coverage, no texture whatsoever, never clogs the nozzle, very durable and mini paint sticks to it extremely well. The difference in usability between them and pretty much every acrylic primer I have ever used is night and day

I've dabbled with Testors during my early days, but just never grew on me. the contrast in glossiness always bothered me, and the acrylic paint rolled off the surface if it was watered down to wash level. How does thin acrylic stay on the product youre referring to?


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 lord_blackfang wrote:
I tried the other Contrast spray, the ivory one, and found it way thick and, to my great surprise and annoyance, Contrast-repellant. Vallejo polyurethane is just so much better.

When primers dont accept paint, 9 out of 10 times it wasnt shaken properly. 1 out of 10 times its a bad batch.

I went back and looked at the models I sprayed and I think it’s not as bad as I first thought, maybe the paint needs a bit longer to dry properly than other sprays I have used. The finish is very smooth, I will say that, like airbrush primers. I might give it another go. Depends how well the paint goes on top.

Next time I’ll shake it more. Is it true that you should run the can under warm water aswell?


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Maybe allow drying times between sprays aswell, if it is performing more like an airbrush

I always shake a rattle can for at least 1 minute and warm it to room temperature too, I also shake for a few seconds between every spray, some paints start settling out very quickly.

Always follow directions on the can. Not looked closely at GW's spray cans because the price tag makes me look away but not all spray paints/primers are going to have the same method of application.

Some might say 12" away, some might say 8 or 10" away. Some might say shake for 2 mins, some might say shake for 5 mins. Assuming 2 or 3 different brands of rattle can paint will have similar application is asking for bad results.

I've used DYI primers/paints like Krylon, Rustoleum, Color Place for 26 years now and never had issues with obscured details or paint flake or paint chip. If DYI sprays are going on your models too fuzzy or thick it's either TOO humid, you are too close to the model or all of the above. I've even primed/painted using the aforementioned sprays at temps below 0 with no issue.

Until someone buys me a $20 can of GW paint (or 30 for their metallics) I'll stick with what I know works. Half the dudes that game at the LGS have been drinking the GW Kool-aid and swear it's the best paint out there. If Citadel Sprays were 8-10 dollars US per can I'd try one of the non-primary colors just to experience it but since GW only ever marks up and not down I'll never willingly buy a can.

Has anyone had experience with the Army Painter primers? I bought a can of Alien Purple online the other day and have just realized I don't know if it will actually be any good.


I can confirm that Wraithbone is quite the hassle to apply well, but it's definitely worth it if you can pull it off. Don't apply contrasts directly onto it, though, no matter what GW says. Privateer Press' P3 black primer is also decent, but fair warning: The material almost works too well. I have yet to find a chemical that's capable of removing it, even with a great deal of scrubbing.

That's how Rustoleum camo colors are. They are formulated for plastic (like for gun stocks and receivers) and I've sometimes had minis soaking for weeks in Super Clean (best crap for stripping plastic IME) and it still won't come off.

But that's how paint/primer should behave.

 Flipsiders wrote:
Has anyone had experience with the Army Painter primers? I bought a can of Alien Purple online the other day and have just realized I don't know if it will actually be any good.


I can confirm that Wraithbone is quite the hassle to apply well, but it's definitely worth it if you can pull it off. Don't apply contrasts directly onto it, though, no matter what GW says. Privateer Press' P3 black primer is also decent, but fair warning: The material almost works too well. I have yet to find a chemical that's capable of removing it, even with a great deal of scrubbing.

So how do you put contrast paints onto wraithbone?

I've used both Grey Seer and Wraithbone sprays and they worked fine for me.

Regular instructions for all spray paints: Shake them well (like, for a few minutes), if the weather is cold put them in warm water for a while to warm up the propellant. Always spray from the distance recommended on the can, as not all cans are identical and some like to be closer or further away. Apply in thin coats rather than trying to soak it with one thick coat.

Grey Seer is basically a satin primer, it is smoother than some primers because the purpose is to be an undercoat for the contrast paints, but I think it's good because some primers are too coarse.

GW sprays have a very strong smell, kinda like acetone, and I think that helps them bond well to plastic.

I also like Tamiya's lacquer varnish, it's a good base for other sprays or airbrushing but maybe a bit too smooth for hairy brush painting.


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 lord_blackfang wrote:
I tried the other Contrast spray, the ivory one, and found it way thick and, to my great surprise and annoyance, Contrast-repellant. Vallejo polyurethane is just so much better.

Wraithbone, I've used it and didn't notice your problems at all. I wonder if you didn't shake it properly, had a bad batch or maybe sprayed it in very cold weather from a cold can?

By contrast, I don't particularly like Vallejo's primer. It doesn't bond particularly well to the plastic substrate and has a gummy/rubbery quality if hairy brushed. I tried it a few times through an airbrush and when I tried masking the models, the primer lifted.

If I'm going to airbrush a primer, my preference goes to Gunze lacquer primers, but being lacquers they have very unpleasant chemicals so I just use spray primers, Tamiya or GW spray primers have served me well.




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mrFickle wrote:

 Flipsiders wrote:
Has anyone had experience with the Army Painter primers? I bought a can of Alien Purple online the other day and have just realized I don't know if it will actually be any good.


I can confirm that Wraithbone is quite the hassle to apply well, but it's definitely worth it if you can pull it off. Don't apply contrasts directly onto it, though, no matter what GW says. Privateer Press' P3 black primer is also decent, but fair warning: The material almost works too well. I have yet to find a chemical that's capable of removing it, even with a great deal of scrubbing.

So how do you put contrast paints onto wraithbone?

I've painted contrasts straight onto Wraithbone, it worked fine for me, it's how I did my red Ork flyers for AI. The black ace was done with contrasts straight over Grey Seer:

https://www.dakkadakka.com/gallery/1075735-.html?m=2

I’ve never had an issue with seer or warithbone accepting paint.
Both allow contrasts over them without an issue.

Considering you can also varnish a model and contrast paint sits on that just fine, I’m wondering how people are having issues here?
If it sticks to smooth varnish then there’s a real issue if it’s not sticking to a base coat.


In the UK though, Halfords have a black and a white primer at £6 a can that work amazingly.

Army painter tends to be hit or miss.
The bone and the gun metal are both excessively thick compared to some of their other colours.
Tried a few cans of each hoping it was a bad batch but sadly it wasn’t.
Their green and mid tone blue however are amazing.

 skchsan wrote:

Cynista wrote:

 skchsan wrote:

jivardi wrote:
I'm not a fan of the price gouge. $20 for a can of paint. That can had better also change my vehicle's oil and wash my dishes as well for that price.

But yeah, Citadel sprays are paints, not paint/primers. Go with ANY DYI brand of primer first. I like Rustoleum Camo colors. Not true primers but they are formulated to stick to plastic and at $5 per can are reasonable.

GW just overcharges because they can

The way I see it, it is expensive, but its the premium for a unique product as there's really not a product that yields similar results (super thin, no texture, comes in a can). It's like airbrushed on primer without the need for the full airbrush set up and better adhesion, particularly against pewter minis.

Enamel based spray primers offer all of that and more, and are under half the price if you buy off brand like the one I mentioned.

If Wilko sold a black one I would literally never use anything else, the grey one is a dream to use. Amazingly thin coverage, no texture whatsoever, never clogs the nozzle, very durable and mini paint sticks to it extremely well. The difference in usability between them and pretty much every acrylic primer I have ever used is night and day

I've dabbled with Testors during my early days, but just never grew on me. the contrast in glossiness always bothered me, and the acrylic paint rolled off the surface if it was watered down to wash level. How does thin acrylic stay on the product youre referring to?

Some people like priming models with enamels, but it seems like doing things the hard way because as you say, acrylics don't stick well to enamels. Enamels are oily, which repels the water based acrylics. Also if you don't wait long enough for the enamel to cure, the acrylic can seal the surface and it'll never cure properly.

Though if you're actually painting with enamels or oils an enamel primer is fine (I still tend to favour lacquer primers though).


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jivardi wrote:
I'm not a fan of the price gouge. $20 for a can of paint. That can had better also change my vehicle's oil and wash my dishes as well for that price.

But yeah, Citadel sprays are paints, not paint/primers. Go with ANY DYI brand of primer first. I like Rustoleum Camo colors. Not true primers but they are formulated to stick to plastic and at $5 per can are reasonable.

GW just overcharges because they can

Whether or not GW paints are labelled as primers, they are effectively primers. The purpose of a primer is to stick to the substrate (plastic) and allow further layers of paint to stick well to it. Whether it's called a primer or not isn't important.

Some people argue that primers have extra things put in that make them primers, but it's not necessarily true, primer doesn't have a strict definition and can mean different things to different companies. If a company advertises a paint as a primer, it just means they think it's good for laying down an undercoat in whatever circumstance they are advertising it, it doesn't necessarily mean it has any special additives or formulation.

As for the price, meh, GW primers aren't terribly overpriced in the context of hobby products. GW primers out here are $32 for 400ml, Tamiya primers are ~$20 for 180ml, so per litre, the GW primers are actually cheaper. Not as cheap as what you'll buy from a hardware store, but on par with what you'll buy from a hobby store.

I use either AP colour primer or halfords grey primer (can buy 2x 500ml cans for the price of one GW can)

I have also used their zinc primer when I ran out of the regular stuff, just dont use the yellow filler primer or you'll be scrubbing it back.

 Flipsiders wrote:
Has anyone had experience with the Army Painter primers? I bought a can of Alien Purple online the other day and have just realized I don't know if it will actually be any good.


I can confirm that Wraithbone is quite the hassle to apply well, but it's definitely worth it if you can pull it off. Don't apply contrasts directly onto it, though, no matter what GW says. Privateer Press' P3 black primer is also decent, but fair warning: The material almost works too well. I have yet to find a chemical that's capable of removing it, even with a great deal of scrubbing.

The AP colour primers are a god send BUT they can be troublesome, they dont seem to work well in a cooler climate which is understandable being made in italy. I find the reds to be very dusty on the over spray.
The blues and grey are perfect though, the colour match is great too which is good for fixing missed parts or over brushing.

Had so many issues with Army Painter cans myself. The colours are great but the cans can die within a couple of uses, with the nozzle and even the feeder pipe getting clogged.

 skchsan wrote:
I've dabbled with Testors during my early days, but just never grew on me. the contrast in glossiness always bothered me, and the acrylic paint rolled off the surface if it was watered down to wash level. How does thin acrylic stay on the product youre referring to?

Acrylics stick to it extremely well. I guess not all enamels are the same as I've never had an issue, can paint on it like any other primer and the finish isn't glossy

Army painter seem to get very mixed reviews. I've never tried their primers, but I've used their varnishes and I don't like them.

Cynista wrote:

 skchsan wrote:
I've dabbled with Testors during my early days, but just never grew on me. the contrast in glossiness always bothered me, and the acrylic paint rolled off the surface if it was watered down to wash level. How does thin acrylic stay on the product youre referring to?

Acrylics stick to it extremely well. I guess not all enamels are the same as I've never had an issue, can paint on it like any other primer and the finish isn't glossy

I wonder if it's an "acrylic enamel"? Enamels have a certain smell to them, and I have used some paints that are labelled as enamels but don't smell like enamels, so I assume they're some kind of acrylic.

I think one issue with "enamels" is that (like "primer") it doesn't have a clear and consistent definition. "Acrylic" implies a specific thing; acrylate, but "enamel" can just mean a hard wearing paint (which itself can mean different things) that can be made from different bases.

I don't know but it has acetone in it and drying models stink way more than the wargame brands, so likely is actual enamel

Cynista wrote:
I don't know but it has acetone in it and drying models stink way more than the wargame brands, so likely is actual enamel

Strong smell doesn't necessarily mean traditional enamel, it's a specific smell that tends to linger for a very long time, it's the same smell you get from a pot of Testors or Tamiya enamels and if you don't lock your models away in a spare room or garage it does a great job at stinking up the house for a day or two or more.

GW sprays stink to high heaven and contain acetone, but it's not the same smell as I associate with enamel paints, I'd actually say they smell worse, lol. Tamiya sprays are lacquers and I believe those fumes are even more dangerous than enamel fumes, but they're short lived compared to enamels where the smell hangs around for a long time.

I've since been using Stynylrez primers through my airbrush. They lay down great, even with a hairy stick.

They are also cheap enough (and most hobby/art stores have sales all time if you shop around) that I don't sweat the price of them.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
Some people argue that primers have extra things put in that make them primers, but it's not necessarily true, primer doesn't have a strict definition and can mean different things to different companies. If a company advertises a paint as a primer, it just means they think it's good for laying down an undercoat in whatever circumstance they are advertising it, it doesn't necessarily mean it has any special additives or formulation.

As for the price, meh, GW primers aren't terribly overpriced in the context of hobby products. GW primers out here are $32 for 400ml, Tamiya primers are ~$20 for 180ml, so per litre, the GW primers are actually cheaper. Not as cheap as what you'll buy from a hardware store, but on par with what you'll buy from a hobby store.

Actually, there is a difference in formulation between the two if we were to get down to technical level.

The improvement in formula, and the proliferation that ensued, of two-in-one paints heavily contributes to the blurring of the line between primers & paints. However, at the very core of it, primer is polymers suspended in solvent, while paints are pigments that are suspended in mediums, which in turn are suspended in solvent. Two-in-one paints are ones that typically use polymers used in primers as the medium to suspend the pigments in. So, colored primers are a type of colored spray paint, but not all colored spray paints can be said to be colored primers.

The difference in formulation is starkly apparent when stripping the paint. GW's spray slips right off along with the layers of paint on top of it, whereas 'true' primers are usually left behind in the crevices.

I swore to myself I would never spend $22 after tax for a can of spray paint. That is, until I tried one of my colleague's. I describe it as the perfect union of primer and spray paint.

I wouldn't go as far as to say it's worth the money, but it's actually a really good product when used properly.