Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.
I'd like to see Slaangors in 40k, but wouldn't expert them to be a Tzaangor analogue. If they take after their AoS counterparts they're far larger and more elite.
Regardless of whether GW intend to do EC & WE books, they really should release new Berzerkers and Noise Marines. At this point the current state of affairs is just silly.
Marshal Loss wrote: I'd like to see Slaangors in 40k, but wouldn't expert them to be a Tzaangor analogue. If they take after their AoS counterparts they're far larger and more elite.
Regardless of whether GW intend to do EC & WE books, they really should release new Berzerkers and Noise Marines. At this point the current state of affairs is just silly.
New kits for Berzerkers and Noise Marines are definitely needed, but so is an actual kit for Chosen. Otherwise I fear they'll either disappear from the future codex because of No Model No Rules, or go the way of Dark Eldar Trueborn, and just be a upgrade to basic CSM that you can only have one unit of and who have the same equipment options as CSM.
PenitentJake wrote: It will depend on your faction; if it's got a ton of Finecast in it, you can look for updates to existing kit.
If the range is all plastic, and even if it's mostly plastic, you'll get new kits instead.
So when CWE comes, I'd advise everyone to set their expectations for plastic remakes of finecast stuff rather than new stuff.
Considering the only 9e updated faction with a lot of finecast (dark eldar) still has almost all its finecast, I'd love to know what your reasoning is.
We're down to Grotesques, Urien, Beasts, and Mandrakes at this point, aren't we? Is that 'a lot' compared to, say, chaos space marines or nids or any of the older factions than the Deldar's 5e remake?
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
Marshal Loss wrote:I'd like to see Slaangors in 40k, but wouldn't expert them to be a Tzaangor analogue. If they take after their AoS counterparts they're far larger and more elite.
I'm just not dismissing the possibility at this point. If nothing else, it would expand the list of options available in an EC codex.
Marshal Loss wrote:Regardless of whether GW intend to do EC & WE books, they really should release new Berzerkers and Noise Marines. At this point the current state of affairs is just silly.
At this point, I would file new Berzerkers more under "nice to have" rather than "need". The only reason I say this is because they are plastic and unless we're looking at new options for them, it isn't as needed when compared to Noise Marines who pretty much aren't much of an option at this point if someone was starting new and didn't have a market to raid.
Gadzilla666 wrote:New kits for Berzerkers and Noise Marines are definitely needed, but so is an actual kit for Chosen. Otherwise I fear they'll either disappear from the future codex because of No Model No Rules, or go the way of Dark Eldar Trueborn, and just be a upgrade to basic CSM that you can only have one unit of and who have the same equipment options as CSM.
Technically speaking, unless you are looking at fancier armor for Chosen, they are pretty much Chaos Marines with broader weapon choices just like Sternguard and Vanguard are. They can be made that way, so long as one has the extra bits to fill them out.
That being said, how long have the Sternguard and Vanguard been out and no unique Chosen box?
Are you a Wolf, a Sheep, or a Hound?
Megavolt wrote:They called me crazy…they called me insane…THEY CALLED ME LOONEY!! and boy, were they right.
Marshal Loss wrote:I'd like to see Slaangors in 40k, but wouldn't expect them to be a Tzaangor analogue. If they take after their AoS counterparts they're far larger and more elite.
I'm just not dismissing the possibility at this point. If nothing else, it would expand the list of options available in an EC codex.
Oh, I'm not saying that Slaangors wouldn't be good for EC/won't turn up. I just wouldn't expect them to fill the same role that Tzaangors & Poxwalkers fulfill for TS & DG (cheap faction-specific troops).
Charistoph wrote: At this point, I would file new Berzerkers more under "nice to have" rather than "need". The only reason I say this is because they are plastic and unless we're looking at new options for them, it isn't as needed when compared to Noise Marines who pretty much aren't much of an option at this point if someone was starting new and didn't have a market to raid.
Noise Marines need a kit more than Berzerkers, sure, but I still think it's "need" for the latter. That such an iconic unit has a 20+ year old kit is ludicrous, and a new kit is inevitably going to have new options.
Gadzilla666 wrote: New kits for Berzerkers and Noise Marines are definitely needed, but so is an actual kit for Chosen. Otherwise I fear they'll either disappear from the future codex because of No Model No Rules, or go the way of Dark Eldar Trueborn, and just be a upgrade to basic CSM that you can only have one unit of and who have the same equipment options as CSM.
To be completely honest I'm not super fussed about new Chosen, and wouldn't mind them being turned into a Trueborn-esque upgrade for normal marines or terminators. Chosen have always felt like an afterthought to me.
PenitentJake wrote: It will depend on your faction; if it's got a ton of Finecast in it, you can look for updates to existing kit.
If the range is all plastic, and even if it's mostly plastic, you'll get new kits instead.
So when CWE comes, I'd advise everyone to set their expectations for plastic remakes of finecast stuff rather than new stuff.
Considering the only 9e updated faction with a lot of finecast (dark eldar) still has almost all its finecast, I'd love to know what your reasoning is.
We're down to Grotesques, Urien, Beasts, and Mandrakes at this point, aren't we? Is that 'a lot' compared to, say, chaos space marines or nids or any of the older factions than the Deldar's 5e remake?
Grotesques, 3 types of beasts, beastmaster, mandrakes, lords retinue (2 finecast, and the ur-ghuls aren't obtainable separately in any sane way).
Nids: lictors, pyrovore, biovore, spore mine (red terror and death leaper if you want to count SCs)
Chaos marines: mutilators, sonic weapons, warpsmith
Orks- kommandos, tankbustas, weirdboy, mek characters (several builds)
Craftworlds- lots and lots.
Other than Craftworlds, Dark eldar had the biggest list of finecast, and still does. Going by rumor engine pics, nids may get some of theirs fixed. maybe orks as well.
Even if they didn't it still feels like a missed opportunity to not have fixed some of that, particularly the single pose grotesques and the mandrakes.
Gadzilla666 wrote: New kits for Berzerkers and Noise Marines are definitely needed, but so is an actual kit for Chosen. Otherwise I fear they'll either disappear from the future codex because of No Model No Rules, or go the way of Dark Eldar Trueborn, and just be a upgrade to basic CSM that you can only have one unit of and who have the same equipment options as CSM.
To be completely honest I'm not super fussed about new Chosen, and wouldn't mind them being turned into a Trueborn-esque upgrade for normal marines or terminators. Chosen have always felt like an afterthought to me.
Chosen are not an "afterthought", they're the Undivided Legions veteran infantry in standard power armour instead of terminator armour, same as Plague Marines, Noise Marines, Berzerkers, and Rubric Marines are for the Cult Legions. They should be a troops choice for the Undivided Legions just as those units are for the Cult Legions, and have a dedicated kit or a conversion kit that works with the basic CSM kit, and not just be a one time "upgrade" option. The Undivided Legions deserve their veterans as much as the Cult Legions.
Marshal Loss wrote: Oh, I'm not saying that Slaangors wouldn't be good for EC/won't turn up. I just wouldn't expect them to fill the same role that Tzaangors & Poxwalkers fulfill for TS & DG (cheap faction-specific troops).
The funny thing is that when Tzaangors and Slaangors were first introduced in concept they were all in the same role as they were just Bestigors that had a Mark of Chaos. In Age of Sigmar, that's no longer the case so it would change a little bit for 40K (if introduced). If Tzaangors were like better Cultists, Slaangors would be a Tyranid Warrior upgrade over them.
Marshal Loss wrote: Noise Marines need a kit more than Berzerkers, sure, but I still think it's "need" for the latter. That such an iconic unit has a 20+ year old kit is ludicrous, and a new kit is inevitably going to have new options.
And there are much older kits than Berzerkers. I remember the buzz when they were introduced, but I wasn't quite collecting any models at that point.
If they do a World Eaters codex, then yes, I think a new box of Berzerkers would be warranted, but I think a few people would be willing to hold off on them to get Terminators, Khornegors, and other thematic models involved, too, so to me it comes down to priority of time investment for the model line.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/04/01 18:07:08
Are you a Wolf, a Sheep, or a Hound?
Megavolt wrote:They called me crazy…they called me insane…THEY CALLED ME LOONEY!! and boy, were they right.
Marshal Loss wrote: Oh, I'm not saying that Slaangors wouldn't be good for EC/won't turn up. I just wouldn't expect them to fill the same role that Tzaangors & Poxwalkers fulfill for TS & DG (cheap faction-specific troops).
The funny thing is that when Tzaangors and Slaangors were first introduced in concept they were all in the same role as they were just Bestigors that had a Mark of Chaos. In Age of Sigmar, that's no longer the case so it would change a little bit for 40K (if introduced). If Tzaangors were like better Cultists, Slaangors would be a Tyranid Warrior upgrade over them.
Well, no. When they were _first_ introduced, they were just god-specific mutations for beastmen. 'Bestigors' didn't exist yet (neither did ungors as a separate profile) Pestigors simply had T5 and Tzaangors had an extra chaos attribute (well, 1d4 rather than d6-3, minimum 1 rather than minimum 0). Slaangors and Khorngors came later- they weren't in the first Realm of Chaos book, except visually (cow- and dog-headed beastmen respectively).
It was a concept that GW introduced, but didn't really pursue, except half-heartedly from time to time.
Gamgee on Tau Players wrote:we all kill cats and sell our own families to the devil and eat live puppies.
Kanluwen wrote: This is, emphatically, why I will continue suggesting nuking Guard and starting over again. It's a legacy army that needs to be rebooted with a new focal point.
Confirmation of why no-one should listen to Kanluwen when it comes to the IG - he doesn't want the IG, he want's Kan's New Model Army...
tneva82 wrote: You aren't even trying ty pretend for honest arqument. Open bad faith trolling.
- No reason to keep this here, unless people want to use it for something...
Marshal Loss wrote: Oh, I'm not saying that Slaangors wouldn't be good for EC/won't turn up. I just wouldn't expect them to fill the same role that Tzaangors & Poxwalkers fulfill for TS & DG (cheap faction-specific troops).
The funny thing is that when Tzaangors and Slaangors were first introduced in concept they were all in the same role as they were just Bestigors that had a Mark of Chaos. In Age of Sigmar, that's no longer the case so it would change a little bit for 40K (if introduced). If Tzaangors were like better Cultists, Slaangors would be a Tyranid Warrior upgrade over them.
Well, no. When they were _first_ introduced, they were just god-specific mutations for beastmen. 'Bestigors' didn't exist yet (neither did ungors as a separate profile) Pestigors simply had T5 and Tzaangors had an extra chaos attribute (well, 1d4 rather than d6-3, minimum 1 rather than minimum 0). Slaangors and Khorngors came later- they weren't in the first Realm of Chaos book, except visually (cow- and dog-headed beastmen respectively).
It was a concept that GW introduced, but didn't really pursue, except half-heartedly from time to time.
Maybe I should have stated that when they were introduced together. So they were pretty much at the same level up until the Slaangors were just released.
Are you a Wolf, a Sheep, or a Hound?
Megavolt wrote:They called me crazy…they called me insane…THEY CALLED ME LOONEY!! and boy, were they right.
Chosen are not an "afterthought", they're the Undivided Legions veteran infantry in standard power armour instead of terminator armour, same as Plague Marines, Noise Marines, Berzerkers, and Rubric Marines are for the Cult Legions. They should be a troops choice for the Undivided Legions just as those units are for the Cult Legions, and have a dedicated kit or a conversion kit that works with the basic CSM kit, and not just be a one time "upgrade" option. The Undivided Legions deserve their veterans as much as the Cult Legions.
I am well aware what Chosen are as I've been playing CSM for a very long time. They're an afterthought, a unit that was never fleshed out and which hasn't had a sense of identity in decades, a relic of editions that used to be far more granular. With how ornate the basic kit is, I don't see much of a place for a box of Chosen in the model line. Wouldn't say no to a box but they'd be pretty far down my list of priorities. Veteran status can be expressed in other ways.
There being older kits isn't an argument for Berzerkers not "needing" a new box (more than one thing can need a box at a time, you know...), nor is the possibility of a World Eaters line a reason to hold off for year after year after year.
Chaos Chosen are no different to loyalist Veterans squads (Company, Stern and Vanguard) thematically. A kit would be nice but TBH the new Chaos Marine kit is extremely ornate. Would GW do a new chosen kit it would be probably be heavely mutated and infused with chaos power to make them stand out, unlike SM veterans where they wear ornate armour compared with the plain armour of devastators, tacticals and assault marines.
Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.
ERJAK wrote: Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.
Chosen are not an "afterthought", they're the Undivided Legions veteran infantry in standard power armour instead of terminator armour, same as Plague Marines, Noise Marines, Berzerkers, and Rubric Marines are for the Cult Legions. They should be a troops choice for the Undivided Legions just as those units are for the Cult Legions, and have a dedicated kit or a conversion kit that works with the basic CSM kit, and not just be a one time "upgrade" option. The Undivided Legions deserve their veterans as much as the Cult Legions.
I am well aware what Chosen are as I've been playing CSM for a very long time. They're an afterthought, a unit that was never fleshed out and which hasn't had a sense of identity in decades, a relic of editions that used to be far more granular. With how ornate the basic kit is, I don't see much of a place for a box of Chosen in the model line. Wouldn't say no to a box but they'd be pretty far down my list of priorities. Veteran status can be expressed in other ways.
Their identity is veterans, as opposed to rank and file CSM. Better leadership, more attacks, greater selection of equipment, and infiltration. In 3.5 Chaos Terminators were Chosen in terminator armour. Since Chaos Terminators became their own entry Chosen have been CSM veterans in standard power armour. How "ornate" the kit is has nothing to do with it. It's about the equipment and rules, which is why I suggested an upgrade kit. The current CSM infantry models have too much "bling" already. Making Chosen troops for the Undivided Legions, with their additional attack, leadership, and equipment options, would give us something that can compete with intercessors. Just slapping an additional wound on basic CSM won't.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Galas wrote: Chaos Chosen are no different to loyalist Veterans squads (Company, Stern and Vanguard) thematically. A kit would be nice but TBH the new Chaos Marine kit is extremely ornate. Would GW do a new chosen kit it would be probably be heavely mutated and infused with chaos power to make them stand out, unlike SM veterans where they wear ornate armour compared with the plain armour of devastators, tacticals and assault marines.
Chosen are neither mutated nor "infused with chaos power". That's Possessed. Chosen are veteran CSM.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/01 19:45:37
No, Possessed are Possessed marines. Most veteran chaos marines would have chaos gifts upon them.
I know Iron Warriors chop off mutations, and Night Lords don't follow the gods. I was talking more about daemonic weaponry, etc...
Like, when I imagine a Chaos Champion that has no direct mutation, I can still visualize him full of chaos power more like... a super sayan? Much stronger, faster, bigger muscles, etc... even if those "blessings" and powers dont manifest in the form of visual chaos influence.
I mean look at old Sigvald. He could not be more "normal human" but he was extremely fast and strong.
I'm not implying Chaos space marine veterans don't exist. I'm just saying that, I believe, would GW do a "proper" Chosen kit, this is probably how they would do it.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/04/01 19:58:11
Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.
ERJAK wrote: Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.
Gadzilla666 wrote: Their identity is veterans, as opposed to rank and file CSM. Better leadership, more attacks, greater selection of equipment, and infiltration. In 3.5 Chaos Terminators were Chosen in terminator armour. Since Chaos Terminators became their own entry Chosen have been CSM veterans in standard power armour. How "ornate" the kit is has nothing to do with it. It's about the equipment and rules, which is why I suggested an upgrade kit. The current CSM infantry models have too much "bling" already. Making Chosen troops for the Undivided Legions, with their additional attack, leadership, and equipment options, would give us something that can compete with intercessors. Just slapping an additional wound on basic CSM won't.
None of the above = "needs a kit". Even in 3.5, Chosen were veterans...in an army of veterans. They existed as they did to be a kitbasher's dream, which isn't something GW caters for anymore. I don't want Chosen becoming a troops choice which is to CSM what Intercessors are to Tacticals. It's pointless to declare that basic CSM won't be able to compete with Intercessors at this stage.
Galas wrote: No, Possessed are Possessed marines. Most veteran chaos marines would have chaos gifts upon them.
I know Iron Warriors chop off mutations, and Night Lords don't follow the gods. I was talking more about daemonic weaponry, etc...
Like, when I imagine a Chaos Champion that has no direct mutation, I can still visualize him full of chaos power more like... a super sayan? Much stronger, faster, bigger muscles, etc... even if those "blessings" and powers dont manifest in the form of visual chaos influence.
I mean look at old Sigvald. He could not be more "normal human" but he was extremely fast and strong.
I'm not implying Chaos space marine veterans don't exist. I'm just saying that, I believe, would GW do a "proper" Chosen kit, this is probably how they would do it.
That may be how you visualize them, but there is no mention of mutation or being "infused with chaos power" that I can find in any of the unit entries for Chosen in any CSM codex from 3.5 up, or in the entry for CSM Veterans in the Chaos 2nd edition codex. Daemonic weapons were only available to Champiions in 3.5. And they don't need to do a full Chosen kit, just an upgrade kit that works with the basic CSM kit with the appropriate equipment. Similar to Veteran Intercessors.
Gadzilla666 wrote: Their identity is veterans, as opposed to rank and file CSM. Better leadership, more attacks, greater selection of equipment, and infiltration. In 3.5 Chaos Terminators were Chosen in terminator armour. Since Chaos Terminators became their own entry Chosen have been CSM veterans in standard power armour. How "ornate" the kit is has nothing to do with it. It's about the equipment and rules, which is why I suggested an upgrade kit. The current CSM infantry models have too much "bling" already. Making Chosen troops for the Undivided Legions, with their additional attack, leadership, and equipment options, would give us something that can compete with intercessors. Just slapping an additional wound on basic CSM won't.
None of the above = "needs a kit". Even in 3.5, Chosen were veterans...in an army of veterans. They existed as they did to be a kitbasher's dream, which isn't something GW caters for anymore. I don't want Chosen becoming a troops choice which is to CSM what Intercessors are to Tacticals. It's pointless to declare that basic CSM won't be able to compete with Intercessors at this stage.
We already know what the equipment options for CSM will be by looking at the new CSM kit. Either bolters or chainswords + pistols. Bolters won't be getting any better. CSM will be the same as Tacticals. And again, it doesn't need to be a full kit, just an upgrade kit with the appropriate equipment.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/01 20:10:49
Dysartes wrote: Now I'm curious what IK and CK will get if every 'dex is going to get at least one model.
I know someone claimed that, but personally I doubt it- particularly for those two.
But then, I think those two would be better off folded into other books with some additional robust subfaction rules (so people can field them solo if they like); Ad Mech and some sort of Renegades book, respectively.
No one really needs 'and the same kit again, but this time with a combi-AA gun AND missile launcher!'
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/01 20:15:52
Gadzilla666 wrote: We already know what the equipment options for CSM will be by looking at the new CSM kit. Either bolters or chainswords + pistols. Bolters won't be getting any better. CSM will be the same as Tacticals. And again, it doesn't need to be a full kit, just an upgrade kit with the appropriate equipment.
Point was that we don't know what rules or marks will be layered on top of them, so no, they're not necessarily just going to be the same as tacticals. They'll be our equivalent, which is the not the same thing. Too early to say. But even if they are, I don't want to be Primaris 2.0 with basic CSM rendered irrelevant.
Veteran Intercessors don't have an upgrade kit, and they do just fine. And what form would an upgrade kit take? One of those tiny little sprues with a few heads, some shoulders, and a single weapon? Because when was the last time they did an upgrade kit bigger than that? Honestly doesn't seem worth the time to me, but whatever floats your boat. I get why you're fixated on the veteran aspect as a classic fluffy NL kind of player, but you're probably gonna end up disappointed.
Galas wrote: No, Possessed are Possessed marines. Most veteran chaos marines would have chaos gifts upon them.
I know Iron Warriors chop off mutations, and Night Lords don't follow the gods. I was talking more about daemonic weaponry, etc...
Like, when I imagine a Chaos Champion that has no direct mutation, I can still visualize him full of chaos power more like... a super sayan? Much stronger, faster, bigger muscles, etc... even if those "blessings" and powers dont manifest in the form of visual chaos influence.
I mean look at old Sigvald. He could not be more "normal human" but he was extremely fast and strong.
I'm not implying Chaos space marine veterans don't exist. I'm just saying that, I believe, would GW do a "proper" Chosen kit, this is probably how they would do it.
That may be how you visualize them, but there is no mention of mutation or being "infused with chaos power" that I can find in any of the unit entries for Chosen in any CSM codex from 3.5 up, or in the entry for CSM Veterans in the Chaos 2nd edition codex. Daemonic weapons were only available to Champiions in 3.5. And they don't need to do a full Chosen kit, just an upgrade kit that works with the basic CSM kit with the appropriate equipment. Similar to Veteran Intercessors.
I'll be mixing things up then. I'm more a Fantasy Chaos guy and there both warriors and Chosen where infused with Chaos Powers , and many were not really mutated, just made super strong by them.
Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.
ERJAK wrote: Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.
Gadzilla666 wrote: We already know what the equipment options for CSM will be by looking at the new CSM kit. Either bolters or chainswords + pistols. Bolters won't be getting any better. CSM will be the same as Tacticals. And again, it doesn't need to be a full kit, just an upgrade kit with the appropriate equipment.
Point was that we don't know what rules or marks will be layered on top of them, so no, they're not necessarily just going to be the same as tacticals. They'll be our equivalent, which is the not the same thing. Too early to say. But even if they are, I don't want to be Primaris 2.0 with basic CSM rendered irrelevant.
Veteran Intercessors don't have an upgrade kit, and they do just fine. And what form would an upgrade kit take? One of those tiny little sprues with a few heads, some shoulders, and a single weapon? Because when was the last time they did an upgrade kit bigger than that? Honestly doesn't seem worth the time to me, but whatever floats your boat. I get why you're fixated on the veteran aspect as a classic fluffy NL kind of player, but you're probably gonna end up disappointed.
If we get another CSM codex that basically renders every Legion into "Black Legion with a different color scheme" then you might be right. But both times we've actually gotten actual rules for Legions Marks other than Undivided were unavailable for any Undivided Legion besides Black Legion (3.5), or Black Legion and Word Bearers (Traitor Legions). If they return to that we can't rely on Marks, and I don't want to, personally. The upgrade kit would include the appropriate weapons, otherwise we risk what happened to Plague Marines, Blightlords, and Wychs.
And I always expect to be disappointed. But the quality of the 9th edition codexes so far gives me some hope. Cue the obvious responses.....
There being older kits isn't an argument for Berzerkers not "needing" a new box (more than one thing can need a box at a time, you know...), nor is the possibility of a World Eaters line a reason to hold off for year after year after year.
I already stated how it could be as it requires development time to create, and so it will really depend on how many kits they will allow in development that will be a factor in something being developed. If they aren't doing a WE and EC codex, then it will be part of the Black Legion codex, so Noise Marines development would take priority over Berzerkers. If they already plan on some more new kits, like Chosen, but run out space on that front, then Berzerkers won't get it. This is what qualifies as "need" in this situation.
Apparently DE were only allocated one model for their codex despite "needing" a few other kits to be done.
Gadzilla666 wrote:That may be how you visualize them, but there is no mention of mutation or being "infused with chaos power" that I can find in any of the unit entries for Chosen in any CSM codex from 3.5 up, or in the entry for CSM Veterans in the Chaos 2nd edition codex. Daemonic weapons were only available to Champiions in 3.5. And they don't need to do a full Chosen kit, just an upgrade kit that works with the basic CSM kit with the appropriate equipment. Similar to Veteran Intercessors.
I seem to remember Marks being available a time or two, and that counts as being infused with chaos power in my book.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/01 22:58:13
Are you a Wolf, a Sheep, or a Hound?
Megavolt wrote:They called me crazy…they called me insane…THEY CALLED ME LOONEY!! and boy, were they right.
Charistoph wrote: This is what qualifies as "need" in this situation.
It really doesn't, because we're talking about what units need an update, not which units are most likely to get done because of (x) and (y) and how they fit into a development cycle, but you're welcome to continue talking yourself in circles
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/01 23:15:40
Gadzilla666 wrote:That may be how you visualize them, but there is no mention of mutation or being "infused with chaos power" that I can find in any of the unit entries for Chosen in any CSM codex from 3.5 up, or in the entry for CSM Veterans in the Chaos 2nd edition codex. Daemonic weapons were only available to Champiions in 3.5. And they don't need to do a full Chosen kit, just an upgrade kit that works with the basic CSM kit with the appropriate equipment. Similar to Veteran Intercessors.
I seem to remember Marks being available a time or two, and that counts as being infused with chaos power in my book.
"Available", yes, as in "optional". And they were available, and optional, for pretty much everything in the codex (and some fw units). Except when they weren't, like for Night Lords, Alpha Legion, and Iron Warriors in Traitor Legions. Without taking one of those "available", and "optional", marks Chosen were no more "infused with chaos power" than a basic CSM with those "available options". Marks, however, were NOT optional for Berzerkers, Plague Marines, Noise Marines, or Rubric Marines. Those guys are "infused by Chaos power" by default. Chosen, are not. It's an available option for them, just like basic CSM, Raptors, Obliterators, Havocs.......
Charistoph wrote: This is what qualifies as "need" in this situation.
It really doesn't, because we're talking about what units need an update, not which units are most likely to get done because of (x) and (y) and how they fit into a development cycle, but you're welcome to continue talking yourself in circles
Even then, you're inflating the term "need" to cover circumstances that really don't apply. "Need" is a statement of necessity, as in they won't sell if they don't get updated. So in terms of "need", Berzerkers are still on the low point of the scale that it is still in the "it would be a very good thing" category.
Gadzilla666 wrote:That may be how you visualize them, but there is no mention of mutation or being "infused with chaos power" that I can find in any of the unit entries for Chosen in any CSM codex from 3.5 up, or in the entry for CSM Veterans in the Chaos 2nd edition codex. Daemonic weapons were only available to Champiions in 3.5. And they don't need to do a full Chosen kit, just an upgrade kit that works with the basic CSM kit with the appropriate equipment. Similar to Veteran Intercessors.
I seem to remember Marks being available a time or two, and that counts as being infused with chaos power in my book.
"Available", yes, as in "optional". And they were available, and optional, for pretty much everything in the codex (and some fw units). Except when they weren't, like for Night Lords, Alpha Legion, and Iron Warriors in Traitor Legions. Without taking one of those "available", and "optional", marks Chosen were no more "infused with chaos power" than a basic CSM with those "available options". Marks, however, were NOT optional for Berzerkers, Plague Marines, Noise Marines, or Rubric Marines. Those guys are "infused by Chaos power" by default. Chosen, are not. It's an available option for them, just like basic CSM, Raptors, Obliterators, Havocs.......
I wasn't arguing about it being an option, just that it was available. If it was available, then Chosen could do so. True, they aren't defined by their gifts like Berzerkers, Noise Marines, Obliterators, etc, but it's not like it's been a "never" thing, either.
Are you a Wolf, a Sheep, or a Hound?
Megavolt wrote:They called me crazy…they called me insane…THEY CALLED ME LOONEY!! and boy, were they right.
Gadzilla666 wrote:That may be how you visualize them, but there is no mention of mutation or being "infused with chaos power" that I can find in any of the unit entries for Chosen in any CSM codex from 3.5 up, or in the entry for CSM Veterans in the Chaos 2nd edition codex. Daemonic weapons were only available to Champiions in 3.5. And they don't need to do a full Chosen kit, just an upgrade kit that works with the basic CSM kit with the appropriate equipment. Similar to Veteran Intercessors.
I seem to remember Marks being available a time or two, and that counts as being infused with chaos power in my book.
"Available", yes, as in "optional". And they were available, and optional, for pretty much everything in the codex (and some fw units). Except when they weren't, like for Night Lords, Alpha Legion, and Iron Warriors in Traitor Legions. Without taking one of those "available", and "optional", marks Chosen were no more "infused with chaos power" than a basic CSM with those "available options". Marks, however, were NOT optional for Berzerkers, Plague Marines, Noise Marines, or Rubric Marines. Those guys are "infused by Chaos power" by default. Chosen, are not. It's an available option for them, just like basic CSM, Raptors, Obliterators, Havocs.......
I wasn't arguing about it being an option, just that it was available. If it was available, then Chosen could do so. True, they aren't defined by their gifts like Berzerkers, Noise Marines, Obliterators, etc, but it's not like it's been a "never" thing, either.
It was never Chosen's "thing" though. Whenever marks have been an option they've been available for practically every infantry (and sometimes vehicle) unit in the codex. Chosen's and CSM veteran's "things" compared to standard CSM depending on edition have been: improved WS/BS (2nd edition), Dispersed Formation (2nd edition), Infiltrate (2nd edition and 4th edition), more attacks (6th and 8th edition), greater leadership (every edition), greater equipment selection (every edition except 2nd). None of these had anything to do with being "infused with chaos power", they were meant to represent their veteran status and abilities. If you wanted them to be "infused with chaos power" you paid the points for a mark, or selected one for free depending on edition. Those gave additional bonuses, and were available to other units. They weren't Chosen's "thing", and there would be no more need to represent them on models for Chosen than any of the other units that can take them.
Charistoph wrote: I wasn't arguing about it being an option, just that it was available. If it was available, then Chosen could do so. True, they aren't defined by their gifts like Berzerkers, Noise Marines, Obliterators, etc, but it's not like it's been a "never" thing, either.
It was never Chosen's "thing" though. Whenever marks have been an option they've been available for practically every infantry (and sometimes vehicle) unit in the codex. Chosen's and CSM veteran's "things" compared to standard CSM depending on edition have been: improved WS/BS (2nd edition), Dispersed Formation (2nd edition), Infiltrate (2nd edition and 4th edition), more attacks (6th and 8th edition), greater leadership (every edition), greater equipment selection (every edition except 2nd). None of these had anything to do with being "infused with chaos power", they were meant to represent their veteran status and abilities. If you wanted them to be "infused with chaos power" you paid the points for a mark, or selected one for free depending on edition. Those gave additional bonuses, and were available to other units. They weren't Chosen's "thing", and there would be no more need to represent them on models for Chosen than any of the other units that can take them.
I didn't say it WAS Chosen's thing, in fact I literally said it wasn't a defining feature (i.e. "their thing"), so I don't even understand why you're taking this tack.
All that I am saying that it was available. Since it was available, they could do it. Therefore it's not like they never could do it, they just aren't defined by it like the Berzerkers, Possessed, etc., who have had it as a defining feature since their creation. It is in between the void of "never" and the absolute standard of "always".
Are you a Wolf, a Sheep, or a Hound?
Megavolt wrote:They called me crazy…they called me insane…THEY CALLED ME LOONEY!! and boy, were they right.
Charistoph wrote: I wasn't arguing about it being an option, just that it was available. If it was available, then Chosen could do so. True, they aren't defined by their gifts like Berzerkers, Noise Marines, Obliterators, etc, but it's not like it's been a "never" thing, either.
It was never Chosen's "thing" though. Whenever marks have been an option they've been available for practically every infantry (and sometimes vehicle) unit in the codex. Chosen's and CSM veteran's "things" compared to standard CSM depending on edition have been: improved WS/BS (2nd edition), Dispersed Formation (2nd edition), Infiltrate (2nd edition and 4th edition), more attacks (6th and 8th edition), greater leadership (every edition), greater equipment selection (every edition except 2nd). None of these had anything to do with being "infused with chaos power", they were meant to represent their veteran status and abilities. If you wanted them to be "infused with chaos power" you paid the points for a mark, or selected one for free depending on edition. Those gave additional bonuses, and were available to other units. They weren't Chosen's "thing", and there would be no more need to represent them on models for Chosen than any of the other units that can take them.
I didn't say it WAS Chosen's thing, in fact I literally said it wasn't a defining feature (i.e. "their thing"), so I don't even understand why you're taking this tack.
All that I am saying that it was available. Since it was available, they could do it. Therefore it's not like they never could do it, they just aren't defined by it like the Berzerkers, Possessed, etc., who have had it as a defining feature since their creation. It is in between the void of "never" and the absolute standard of "always".
The original post that I responded to with the response that you quoted was making the argument that the majority of veteran CSM were "infused with chaos power", and you seemed to be continuing that argument by pointing out that you could mark Chosen. Sorry if you were just doing a "Well, actually", but that's not how I understood it. My entire point was that Chosen were defined as "CSM veterans", and not "infused with chaos power", so that's why I assumed you were arguing against that by pointing out that Chosen could take marks. Apologies if you were not. But then, why quote me in the first place if you weren't?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/02 02:55:48
