What counts as "moved over" for flyers/planes? (also one question about actions)

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**alextroy**

Sorry guys, but that isn't what the rules state.

MEASURING DISTANCES
Distances are measured in inches (") between the closest points of the bases of the models you’re measuring to and from. If a model does not have a base, such as is the case with many vehicles, measure to the closest point of any part of that model; this is called measuring to the model’s hull, You can measure distances whenever you wish.

And from the Movement Phase:

When you move a unit, you can move any of its models (you can also choose not to move some of the models in that unit if you wish). Whenever you move a model, you can pivot it and/or change its position on the battlefield along any path, but no part of the model’s base (or hull) can be moved across the bases (or hulls) of other models, nor can any part of that model (including its base) cross the edge of the battlefield. You can also rotate any movable part of the model (such as turrets and sponsons) when it is moved. The distance a model moves is measured using the part of the model’s base (or hull) that moves furthest along its path (including parts that rotate or pivot).

FLYING
If a unit’s datasheet has the Fly keyword, then when it makes a Normal Move, an Advance or it Falls Back, its models can be moved across other models (and their bases) as if they were not there, and they can be moved within Engagement Range of enemy models. In addition, any vertical distance up and/or down that they make as part of that move is ignored. However, these models cannot finish their move either on top of another model (or its base) or within Engagement Range of any enemy models.

It is perfectly legal to move part of a model that isn't used for measurements over a part of another model that isn't used for measurement. That's isn't considered to be moving the model over another. You don't have to avoid Magnus's wings when you move a model and aren't moving across Magnus if you move past them.

**DeathReaper**

Spoiler:

Where in the bomber rules are you told to measure any distance though?

It says move across/over (depending on the specific rule). Base to Base measuring rules simply do not come into play here.

P.S. The base movement rules are different for flyers as noted by the "FLYING" rules. This has nothing to do with the bomb rules on some flyer dataslates.

**alextroy**

Hull is defined in the measuring distance rules. Moving across is detailed in movement rules, which references hull. If you don’t move over the base (or hull) then you didn’t move over the model for rules purposes.

**DeathReaper**

alextroy wrote:
Hull is defined in the measuring distance rules. Moving across is detailed in movement rules, which references hull. If you don’t move over the base (or hull) then you didn’t move over the model for rules purposes.

Of course this is false, because we are not measuring here.

Also because the rules do not define the phrase move across/over.

On basic English if you move across something, any part of that thing needs to do so. Not just the base.

Therefore your argument is not correct.

You just have to have your model move over any part of the enemy unit (any part of any model in that unit is enough to fulfill this requirement).

**alextroy**

Well, I'm going to agree to disagree because this is obviously headed for the "I'm right. No, I'm right" recursive argument.

**DeathReaper**

alextroy wrote:
Well, I'm going to agree to disagree because this is obviously headed for the "I'm right. No, I'm right" recursive argument.

How do you figure that the model has not moved over an enemy unit if part of the model definitely moved over the enemy unit?

Measuring rules do not come into play, because the measuring rules are for how much distance a model moves, not what it moves over.

There is no requirement for it to be base only.

**alextroy**

The movement rules state you cannot move across another model and specifically calls out base (or hull) for both models. Thus you do not move across another model unless your base (or hull) moves across their base (or hull).

As for over versus across, I see one reference of this in the rules:

FLYING
If a unit’s datasheet has the Fly keyword, then when it makes a Normal Move, an Advance or it Falls Back, its models can be moved across other models (and their bases) as if they were not there, and they can be moved within Engagement Range of enemy models. In addition, any vertical distance up and/or down that they make as part of that move is ignored. However, these models cannot finish their move either on top of another model (or its base) or within Engagement Range of any enemy models.

Fly models can move over other models when they make a Normal Move, an Advance or when they Fall Back.
Fly models ignore vertical distances when they make a Normal Move, an Advance or when they Fall Back.

Note that over is used in the summary explanation for a rule that actually says across. Thus over equals across.

Any more questions?

**nosferatu1001**

There is still. No. Measuring though! Thus you do not reference the rules for measuring.

**DeathReaper**

alextroy wrote:

Spoiler:

The movement rules state you cannot move across another model and specifically calls out base (or hull) for both models. Thus you do not move across another model unless your base (or hull) moves across their base (or hull).

As for over versus across, I see one reference of this in the rules:

FLYING
If a unit’s datasheet has the Fly keyword, then when it makes a Normal Move, an Advance or it Falls Back, its models can be moved across other models (and their bases) as if they were not there, and they can be moved within Engagement Range of enemy models. In addition, any vertical distance up and/or down that they make as part of that move is ignored. However, these models cannot finish their move either on top of another model (or its base) or within Engagement Range of any enemy models.

Fly models can move over other models when they make a Normal Move, an Advance or when they Fall Back.
Fly models ignore vertical distances when they make a Normal Move, an Advance or when they Fall Back.
Note that over is used in the summary explanation for a rule that actually says across. Thus over equals across.

Any more questions?

Yes, Why are you using the movement rules when using the bomb rules on a Dataslate? You are bombing not moving at that point.

P.S. you do not move across another model unless your base (or hull) moves across their base (or hull) When you are moving. When you are bombing you use the bomb rules and not the movement rules.

**FezzikDaBullgryn**

I would play it like a "Gaze of the Emperor" 40" move. Plot a line of at least 1" wide and 40" long, across the battlefield, any units along that line get bombed." The end. That is just my way of playing. I don't want to waste the time it would take to carry my Ares around the table to see if the wing touches some model.

**alextroy**

DeathReaper wrote:
alextroy wrote:

Spoiler:

The movement rules state you cannot move across another model and specifically calls out base (or hull) for both models. Thus you do not move across another model unless your base (or hull) moves across their base (or hull).

As for over versus across, I see one reference of this in the rules:

FLYING
If a unit’s datasheet has the Fly keyword, then when it makes a Normal Move, an Advance or it Falls Back, its models can be moved across other models (and their bases) as if they were not there, and they can be moved within Engagement Range of enemy models. In addition, any vertical distance up and/or down that they make as part of that move is ignored. However, these models cannot finish their move either on top of another model (or its base) or within Engagement Range of any enemy models.

Fly models can move over other models when they make a Normal Move, an Advance or when they Fall Back.
Fly models ignore vertical distances when they make a Normal Move, an Advance or when they Fall Back.
Note that over is used in the summary explanation for a rule that actually says across. Thus over equals across.

Any more questions?

Yes, Why are you using the movement rules when using the bomb rules on a Dataslate? You are bombing not moving at that point.

P.S. you do not move across another model unless your base (or hull) moves across their base (or hull) When you are moving. When you are bombing you use the bomb rules and not the movement rules.

I not going to waste my time on this sort of silly debate. If we can reference other parts of the rules when deciding how to do thing, there are dozens of things we can’t do.

**DeathReaper**

alextroy wrote:
I not going to waste my time on this sort of silly debate. If we can reference other parts of the rules when deciding how to do thing, there are dozens of things we can’t do.

we can of course reference other parts of the rules when they apply, but they do not apply in this case.

The rules about bombs are specific in that they allow anyone the model moved over to use the bomb rules. This has nothing to do with measuring distances in the movement phase.

That is why your argument fails.

**alextroy**

Move over is defined in the movement rules and references Hull. Hull is defined in the measuring rules. Hence my reference to those rules.

**DeathReaper**

alextroy wrote:
Move over is defined in the movement rules and references Hull. Hull is defined in the measuring rules. Hence my reference to those rules.

But that is for movement, not for the bomb rules. And flyers have different movement rules.

Flyers specifically say "can be moved across other models (and their bases) as if they were not there"

Why would it say "models (and their bases)" if the models do not count, like you have said?

Clearly models and bases are distinct parts of the miniature.

**skchsan**

There's a limit to how low you can go for the sake of argument for arguments' sake.

Sooner than later, someone's going to claim that you don't have explicit permission to roll a dice because the rulebook doesn't tell you how you're supposed to roll (i.e. underhanded roll only, overhand roll, must travel at least 6" during its roll, etc).

**PoorGravitasHandling**

I think it is important to focus on measuring distances here, as Alextroy posted above. Most (all now?) fliers have a base and so you aren't measuring from the hull (wings, etc).

So if you glance an enemy model with the (gigantic) base of the flier then you're good.

As to why the movement rules apply to the bomb rule? Because the bomb rule asks if you moved over a unit. And you need to use the movement rules to move so...

**DeathReaper**

The bomb rule asks if you moved over a unit. So sure, lets use the movement rules (though we do not need to).

The movement rules say "no part of the model’s base (or hull) can be moved across the bases (or hulls) of other models"

And Flyers amend this to say they "can move over other models when they [move]"

"other models" is not just bases...

If the hull or base moves across the bases (or hulls) of other models then you can bomb.

**alextroy**

Fun fact: Based on the movement rules, you have permission to move across part of a model as long as that part isn’t under the base nor part of a model that doesn’t have a base.

So the Fly rule simply includes permission to do part of what you can already do while giving permission to do something you couldn’t do.

**DeathReaper**

alextroy wrote:
Fun fact: Based on the movement rules, you have permission to move across part of a model as long as that part isn’t under the base nor part of a model that doesn’t have a base.

Fun fact: Flyer movement is different

So the Fly rule simply includes permission to do part of what you can already do while giving permission to do something you couldn’t do.

Sure, but that has nothing to do with the bomb rules.

The flyer rules say "FLYING
If a unit’s datasheet has the Fly keyword, then when it makes a Normal Move, an Advance or it Falls Back, its models can be moved across other models (and their bases) as if they were not there"

It says its models (which means the flyer in question) can be moved across other models (and their bases)... It is not base only because it says "its models can be moved across" models include wings and bases and such...

**doctortom**

p5freak wrote:
But this still doesnt answer when a model has moved over an enemy unit. Is it enough if a tiny bit of the wing barely moved over the base of an enemy model ? Or does the base have to move completely over the base of an enemy model ? Or do you even have to move the entire model over the entire enemy unit ? We dont know.

Are you allowed to have wings or other parts of a flyer's hull hanging off the edge of the board, or does the entire model have to be on the board? I would say that if they are treating the entire models as having to be on the board, then they would also be treating the entire model as passing over something it went over. If you only have to have the base on the board, then they are treating the base as the only thing that matters.

**Ghaz**

doctortom wrote:
p5freak wrote:
But this still doesnt answer when a model has moved over an enemy unit. Is it enough if a tiny bit of the wing barely moved over the base of an enemy model ? Or does the base have to move completely over the base of an enemy model ? Or do you even have to move the entire model over the entire enemy unit ? We dont know.

Are you allowed to have wings or other parts of a flyer's hull hanging off the edge of the board, or does the entire model have to be on the board? I would say that if they are treating the entire models as having to be on the board, then they would also be treating the entire model as passing over something it went over. If you only have to have the base on the board, then they are treating the base as the only thing that matters.

From page 206 of the Core Rules (1. Move Units):

Whenever you move a model, you can pivot it and/or change its position on the battlefield along any path, but no part of the model’s base (or hull) can be moved across the bases (or hulls) of other models, nor can any part of that model (including its base) cross the edge of the battlefield.

**doctortom**

Ghaz wrote:
doctortom wrote:
p5freak wrote:
But this still doesnt answer when a model has moved over an enemy unit. Is it enough if a tiny bit of the wing barely moved over the base of an enemy model ? Or does the base have to move completely over the base of an enemy model ? Or do you even have to move the entire model over the entire enemy unit ? We dont know.

Are you allowed to have wings or other parts of a flyer's hull hanging off the edge of the board, or does the entire model have to be on the board? I would say that if they are treating the entire models as having to be on the board, then they would also be treating the entire model as passing over something it went over. If you only have to have the base on the board, then they are treating the base as the only thing that matters.

From page 206 of the Core Rules (1. Move Units):

Whenever you move a model, you can pivot it and/or change its position on the battlefield along any path, but no part of the model’s base (or hull) can be moved across the bases (or hulls) of other models, nor can any part of that model (including its base) cross the edge of the battlefield.

Which indicates that any part of a model with fly going over a model in a unit should count as going over that unit, not just when the base crosses the unit.

**DeathReaper**

doctortom wrote:

Spoiler:

Ghaz wrote:
doctortom wrote:
p5freak wrote:
But this still doesnt answer when a model has moved over an enemy unit. Is it enough if a tiny bit of the wing barely moved over the base of an enemy model ? Or does the base have to move completely over the base of an enemy model ? Or do you even have to move the entire model over the entire enemy unit ? We dont know.

Are you allowed to have wings or other parts of a flyer's hull hanging off the edge of the board, or does the entire model have to be on the board? I would say that if they are treating the entire models as having to be on the board, then they would also be treating the entire model as passing over something it went over. If you only have to have the base on the board, then they are treating the base as the only thing that matters.

From page 206 of the Core Rules (1. Move Units):

Whenever you move a model, you can pivot it and/or change its position on the battlefield along any path, but no part of the model’s base (or hull) can be moved across the bases (or hulls) of other models, nor can any part of that model (including its base) cross the edge of the battlefield.

Which indicates that any part of a model with fly going over a model in a unit should count as going over that unit, not just when the base crosses the unit.

100% this.