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Given that it is the "Indomitus crusade" I figured it made sense that they were picking up on that aesthetic in general with the primaris.

It could be argued they are attempting to push them as "chivalrous knights" protecting the Imperium and fighting off the naughty space baddies.

They are after all billed as the cavalry charge which saved the day when all hope was lost.

I suppose I quite like that idea when framed within the deep misery of the Imperium. Like the Blood Knights of the Vampire Counts, a dark parody of chivalrous saviours.

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 AngryAngel80 wrote:
I'd have to say probably because if features through history in military badges or medals and it's a clean visual that for good or bad invokes feelings of crusading knights, which is a visual or feeling they have for marines.

It only "features" for you because you were indoctrinated in very narrow slice of military culture, that of XX century US one (which also funnily tripled down on crosses and smearing religious voodoo everywhere thanks to far right constantly screeching 'red' scares and outdoing each other in holier-than-thou populist 'opposition' to it) and think this is normal. It's not. If you look at military symbols of Warsaw Pact, revolutionary/republican Europe, South Asia, Middle East, Africa, pre-Columbian America, Oceania, Far East, you won't find a single cross.

I fully agree, 40K designers leaning on it is kind of dumb and problematic, especially seeing IG regiments and SM chapters are supposed to mirror virtually any Terran culture and historical period you can think of, not a single tiny one because designer couldn't be arsed to spend 5 minutes looking up alternatives. It's fine if BT use them, but why roman Ultramarines, levantine Tallarn, or polynesian Carcharodons would use one? It makes no sense, doubly so seeing the Emperor predated it's (bloody) usage and in any case found religious sects using the symbol so distasteful he annihilated them all. It's even worse seeing there are variants and mutations of pretty much all Imperial symbols and insignia, except, funnily enough, the cross.

 waefre_1 wrote:
This is 40k - it's gothic science fantasy, and that's the "gothic" of "gothic cathedral". It's not surprising they would include some form of cross in Imperial iconography, and as has been mentioned they've been doing so for quite some time now.

You are aware that vast majority of Gothic architecture was secular, and even churches rarely used the imagery? It's in fact one of the major differences with Romanesque architecture predating it! If there is one defining Gothic symbol, it's arch and circle (you know, like on Sisters new designs), not a cross, so bravo for completely debunking your argument.

 Sim-Life wrote:
They're likely phasing out the imperial aquila (if they are at all) because people keep associating the eagle with nazis, the boogeymen of the Twittersphere.

Ah, yes, and that's why Custodes, SoS, and partially SoB (especially Junith), three newest 40K armies, are drowning in them. Oh wait
   
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Irbis,

Did you get this upset with Terminators back in 90s with their Crux Terminatus?

Space Marines have always been Knights in Space. These ones (the new ones from the Indomitus box) are all on the Indomitus Crusade. Their Crusade Badge is a modified Crux Terminatus. Jes Goodwin is quite clear that the Bladeguard shields draw inspiration from the Maltese Cross. These are Crusading Knights in Space. I think we can enjoy the imagery and theme without bringing in actual religion.

I think the Bladeguard Veterans are great, characterful sculpts that draw from "traditional" Space Marine aesthetics while breaking some new ground.

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 Irbis wrote:

 waefre_1 wrote:
This is 40k - it's gothic science fantasy, and that's the "gothic" of "gothic cathedral". It's not surprising they would include some form of cross in Imperial iconography, and as has been mentioned they've been doing so for quite some time now.

You are aware that vast majority of Gothic architecture was secular, and even churches rarely used the imagery? It's in fact one of the major differences with Romanesque architecture predating it! If there is one defining Gothic symbol, it's arch and circle (you know, like on Sisters new designs), not a cross, so bravo for completely debunking your argument.

1) OK? How many people could name even one piece of secular Gothic architecture without the internet?
2) The foundations of Gothic cathedrals were often cruciform - the building itself was the cross. No, they may not have had as many external cruciform adornments as other architectural styles, but so what?
3) You appear to have missed the point that the inclusion of "Gothic cathedral" is done for more than its mere architectural cues - it's the High Latin masses, the pomp and circumstance, the gravitas, the sense of age and grandeur, all the associations people have with the "Gothic cathedral" (especially those added by "Gothic" literature and the Gothic subculture, which often took place in and drew from the same locations and cultures that created Gothic architecture and tended to include heavy use of supernatural elements - not always explicitly Christian or even religious, sure, but this is a European/American tradition, so they're not exactly talking about Anansi when a divine will is mentioned). 40k has traded very heavily on that since it got Grimdark, so the inclusion of crosses isn't exactly out of place.

I actually agree with you that including crosses is a bit off for certain forces that draw thematic elements from non-European culture, but at the same time it still kind of works - the Imperium is a massive, uncompromising monolith that cares nothing for the individual or their local culture. Also, as has been pointed out, the Imperium is in a state of near-total ignorance regarding its own past. It would absolutely make the neo-Ainu soldiers from Kuril XXI wear a star-and-crescent symbol, because that's the symbol on this medal and they've had this medal since forever and they have no idea what the star-and-crescent means, how a "neo-Ainu" would feel about it, or why they should care.
   
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TangoTwoBravo wrote:
Irbis,

Did you get this upset with Terminators back in 90s with their Crux Terminatus?

Space Marines have always been Knights in Space.
Terminators don't look very "knight-ey." Bladeguard Veterans look VERY "Knight-ey".

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Don't go looking at the Black Templars...

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 Stormonu wrote:
Don't go looking at the Black Templars...
Obviously BT are a knight-themed Space Marine chapter, but I wouldn't expect to see their iconography show up in an Ultramarine or Space Wolf army. Bladeguard Veterans are a generic Space Marine unit availabe to all chapters.

Citing Black Templars is a bit like citing Space Wolves if all chapters suddenly had a unit that rides wolves. It feels a little off brand.

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A lot of the iconography in the imperium is based on real world iconography, not really shocked if crosses start appearing.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/24 00:21:37


 
   
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I think the reason the "crosses" on the new guys look so glaring (to me, anyway) is that the new Crux is missing the crossbones. It looked blockier and less cruciform when the space between the iron cross was filled in.

I don't feel, "Ur Xtianity is bleeding into mah sci fi!!!1!" so much as, "C'mon guys, you didn't finish the design!"


 
   
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TangoTwoBravo wrote:
Irbis,

Did you get this upset with Terminators back in 90s with their Crux Terminatus?

Space Marines have always been Knights in Space. These ones (the new ones from the Indomitus box) are all on the Indomitus Crusade. Their Crusade Badge is a modified Crux Terminatus. Jes Goodwin is quite clear that the Bladeguard shields draw inspiration from the Maltese Cross. These are Crusading Knights in Space. I think we can enjoy the imagery and theme without bringing in actual religion.

I think the Bladeguard Veterans are great, characterful sculpts that draw from "traditional" Space Marine aesthetics while breaking some new ground.

Yep, it's just a crusade badge. All the armchair Richard Dawkinses need to calm down.
   
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 Nazrak wrote:
TangoTwoBravo wrote:
Irbis,

Did you get this upset with Terminators back in 90s with their Crux Terminatus?

Space Marines have always been Knights in Space. These ones (the new ones from the Indomitus box) are all on the Indomitus Crusade. Their Crusade Badge is a modified Crux Terminatus. Jes Goodwin is quite clear that the Bladeguard shields draw inspiration from the Maltese Cross. These are Crusading Knights in Space. I think we can enjoy the imagery and theme without bringing in actual religion.

I think the Bladeguard Veterans are great, characterful sculpts that draw from "traditional" Space Marine aesthetics while breaking some new ground.

Yep, it's just a crusade badge. All the armchair Richard Dawkinses need to calm down.
I can imagine some other symbols that wouldn't fly as "just a campaign badge".

It's less about religion and more like seeing the American flag sculpted onto a model. It looks off.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/24 21:19:53


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 Niiai wrote:
Cross iconografy, when did that creep in? Many of the Indomitus marines have crosses on the arm guards. Blade guards and the justidicar has it dangling from chains.

That is new. Where are the imperial eagle, or local chapter icon? Christianity or anyone assosiated with crosses is wiped out by 40k timeline. There is even a small short story where the emperor talks to the last cristian. Asuming they even know what a cross is, it would be considered heresy.

While the models are cool I am thinking they could have changed it with something more in line with the lore. Seems like a design slip. Or is there some information I am missing?


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 grumpusbumpus wrote:
 Niiai wrote:
Cross iconografy, when did that creep in? Many of the Indomitus marines have crosses on the arm guards. Blade guards and the justidicar has it dangling from chains.

That is new. Where are the imperial eagle, or local chapter icon? Christianity or anyone assosiated with crosses is wiped out by 40k timeline. There is even a small short story where the emperor talks to the last cristian. Asuming they even know what a cross is, it would be considered heresy.

While the models are cool I am thinking they could have changed it with something more in line with the lore. Seems like a design slip. Or is there some information I am missing?


LOLZ, The Black Templars would like a word with you...


The black templars are themed like that. While I do not know where they drew their inspiration from in the lore, it is pretty obvious what iconigrafy they are based upon. (They had the holy handgrenade in 4th edition. So obviously they are based upon monthy python and the knights of the holy grail. They even have the same horses.) But as someone stated above they special iconigrafy should stay in its lane. Do you want space wolf thing in your blood angels? Salamander scales in your ultra marines? Hun sabers in your black templar?

This is disappointing from GW. Just lazy modeling and design.

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How is it lazy design when they have been putting Crosses in no small amount on Marines for a long time as has been shown in the thread.
   
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 Insectum7 wrote:
I can imagine some other symbols that wouldn't fly as "just a campaign badge".

It's less about religion and more like seeing the American flag sculpted onto a model. It looks off.


Well then we have a problem then, because w40k armies are full of real life and movie inspirations, as GW likes to call it to avoid copy right problems themselfs.

Crosses, of various kind, were and are very common among military units , knightly orders. Why shouldn't they not fit the crusaders of the 41st millenium?

Or is it a general cross hate of everything that is related to it, because crosses were so popular in eastern and central europe that they were on banners of polish army even durning communist times. Stuff like the Grunwald cross were very popular. And in practic and theory communists hated everything catholic related. And today ton of units from our part of europe have different types of crosses on everything.

If the sigil of the thunderbolt is a normal thing in w40k lore for the unification wars, then crosses have just much of a place in it too. Plus they don't come with the much worse historical baggage, because two S looking shapes make people think of a lot worse thing then a cross. At least in my part of the world.

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Well considering that the crux terminatus has been the go to symbol for the chapter elite and first company showing that they have earned the right to use terminator armor I merely see it as the next logical step for an army with no terminators. The shield is literally just the Crux stretched out to fill in the space of a tower shield. Its even loaded with skulls and stuff. Really Bladeguard veterans are the new Terminators of primaris so this is just the next evolution of that idea. I do not think its out of place since the Crux already existed. Plus it fills out more size on the model instead of having a tiny shield like Storm shield termies had. If they upscaled that shield it would be very poorly proportioned and look terrible. This also takes a lot of design cues from the Deathwatch stormshield.

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Karol wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
I can imagine some other symbols that wouldn't fly as "just a campaign badge".

It's less about religion and more like seeing the American flag sculpted onto a model. It looks off.


Well then we have a problem then, because w40k armies are full of real life and movie inspirations, as GW likes to call it to avoid copy right problems themselfs.


Inspiration is great, but it's possible to be too close to the "source material". This has been my argument all along.

Crosses, of various kind, were and are very common among military units , knightly orders. Why shouldn't they not fit the crusaders of the 41st millenium?

Or is it a general cross hate of everything that is related to it, because crosses were so popular in eastern and central europe that they were on banners of polish army even durning communist times. Stuff like the Grunwald cross were very popular. And in practic and theory communists hated everything catholic related. And today ton of units from our part of europe have different types of crosses on everything.

If the sigil of the thunderbolt is a normal thing in w40k lore for the unification wars, then crosses have just much of a place in it too. Plus they don't come with the much worse historical baggage, because two S looking shapes make people think of a lot worse thing then a cross. At least in my part of the world.


The cross is an extraordinarily common and recognizable symbol representing a major religion in modern times, and it is displayed on the model in a way that reinforces the association with that religion. "Sword and Board" with big-ol "longtail" cross on a similarly shaped shield holds a stronger association as a religious symbol than the non-elongated, more stylized cross on the shoulder plate of a more "industrially" stylized armor. There are numerous elements lending to the impression, not merely the cross itself. The fewer of those elements that are there, the more distant the association.

I get that some people like the "knightly crusader" imagery for Space Marines, robes and all, and that's fine. It's just not for me. I also think that there's sort of a limit to how far you want to push any association with modern religion.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 generalchaos34 wrote:
Well considering that the crux terminatus has been the go to symbol for the chapter elite and first company showing that they have earned the right to use terminator armor I merely see it as the next logical step for an army with no terminators. The shield is literally just the Crux stretched out to fill in the space of a tower shield. Its even loaded with skulls and stuff. Really Bladeguard veterans are the new Terminators of primaris so this is just the next evolution of that idea. I do not think its out of place since the Crux already existed. Plus it fills out more size on the model instead of having a tiny shield like Storm shield termies had. If they upscaled that shield it would be very poorly proportioned and look terrible. This also takes a lot of design cues from the Deathwatch stormshield.
^ See the above reply.

The context and particular form of the cross can reinforce or distance it's iconography from real-world associations.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/27 18:54:28


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 Insectum7 wrote:
Inspiration is great, but it's possible to be too close to the "source material". This has been my argument all along.
Then perhaps when a Marine unit shows up with this on his shield, then we might have hit the point you're talking about.

Until then, these three shields seem pretty far removed.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/28 02:56:28


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 H.B.M.C. wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
Inspiration is great, but it's possible to be too close to the "source material". This has been my argument all along.
Then perhaps when a Marine unit shows up with this on his shield, then we might have hit the point you're talking about.

Until then, these three shields seem pretty far removed.

They're closer in form, more prominently displayed and more contextually analogous than prior incarnations, in addition to being on "generic" chapter-agnostic Space Marine models. I didn't start the thread, so I'm not the only one who'd noticed it.

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 H.B.M.C. wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
Inspiration is great, but it's possible to be too close to the "source material". This has been my argument all along.
Then perhaps when a Marine unit shows up with this on his shield, then we might have hit the point you're talking about.

Until then, these three shields seem pretty far removed.



But crosses on shields are heraldic signs, aside for some very specific ones, like those belonging to bishops, cardinals or knighly orders , having a cross or a cross shaped thing in the field, doesn't mean that it is representing an actual crucifix. Look at the Australian flag,do you think the Union Jack in it is the representation of Christ or his cross?

My families herladic sign looks like and eldar rune. It is a a Silver/White up turned arrow, crossed by 3 diagonal strippes with the bottom one having a white cresscent coming out of it. And we had it since we came to where we live now in XIVth century from Kiev.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/28 09:08:42


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 H.B.M.C. wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
Inspiration is great, but it's possible to be too close to the "source material". This has been my argument all along.
Then perhaps when a Marine unit shows up with this on his shield, then we might have hit the point you're talking about.

Until then, these three shields seem pretty far removed.



I actually think it is pretty close already, even without the skeleton. But a skeleton of a saint or something would certanly go a long way. Like this fellow.
[Thumb - skelleton.jpg]

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/28 11:37:06


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You wouldn't put a skeleton of a saint on an actual pavis though, or at least not on one ment for actual combat. If you were some extremly rich italian or spanish noble you may have a smaller one for parades though. But no one would risk the body of the saint, to be hit by a hammer or mace.

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You absolutely would in the grim darkness of the 41st millennium, though.
   
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My first impression was less 'cross' and more it looked more like a stylised dagger, with hilt, blade and cross guard....

Its only a cross if you want it to be.

Not that there's much of a problem from guys in a country with a Christianic history drawing on iconography they're probably more familiar with than more exotic cultures..

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 waefre_1 wrote:
You absolutely would in the grim darkness of the 41st millennium, though.


People around my area of the world would carry saints corpses to battle or corpse parts. No one would ever put them on the front the the shield. And there are few places more grim and dark in the world then central and eastern europe.

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Deadnight wrote:
My first impression was less 'cross' and more it looked more like a stylised dagger, with hilt, blade and cross guard....

Its only a cross if you want it to be.

Not that there's much of a problem from guys in a country with a Christianic history drawing on iconography they're probably more familiar with than more exotic cultures..


Didn't think about it that way but it certainly does have a strong "sword" or "dagger" feel to it really, plus they are the BLADEGUARD. I think you really hit it on the nose.

Honestly as someone who has been routinely been traumatized by religion I am just not seeing this as a strong cross related inspiration. The looks are similar but I think the context is so far removed that it has very little meaning. I get more connection with the Fleur de lis and sisters to religion and crosses than I ever would from this shield.

Honestly this is the gothic influence showing more than a religious one. Gothic has deep religious roots but it is not inherently tied to it as it exists to invoke feelings of mystery and emotion (usually fear). Even the name "goth" is intended to brand the art as barbaric, simplistic, and brutal. All of which apply perfectly to the Space Marine and 40k in general. While gothic art and architecture is certainly heavily influenced by religion I can see the modernist interpretation being far removed and more based on gothic literature and goth rock. I.E. our sculptor more than likely has a degree in art history and listened to Bauhaus as a kid moreso than they are trying to invoke any religious connotations.

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 generalchaos34 wrote:

Honestly this is the gothic influence showing more than a religious one. Gothic has deep religious roots but it is not inherently tied to it as it exists to invoke feelings of mystery and emotion (usually fear). Even the name "goth" is intended to brand the art as barbaric, simplistic, and brutal. All of which apply perfectly to the Space Marine and 40k in general. While gothic art and architecture is certainly heavily influenced by religion I can see the modernist interpretation being far removed and more based on gothic literature and goth rock. I.E. our sculptor more than likely has a degree in art history and listened to Bauhaus as a kid moreso than they are trying to invoke any religious connotations.
We have it from the horse's mouth that the imagery is meant to invoke knights on a holy crusade:

"Space Marine are the archetypical knights in space, but the models in the Indomitus box take that a step further, making them more like holy medieval knights on crusade (in space)." - Jes Goodwyn

Quote and source provided earlier in the thread.

"Holy Crusade" is pretty religious.

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Isn't that a huge part of the Grey Knight aesthetic, the knight part?

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Holy crusade is pretty religious yes. So why do they not use the emperors holy symbol? These in universe people have no idea what a cross is.

And if they draw from comtemporerly or historic sources, why the Christian crusade? Where are the moons of the Muslims? The hammers of the vikings? The candelabra of the yews? The small fat men? An avatar of the divine? The five pointed star of the ancient onse. All of these would make as much sence.

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