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Made in ca
Grovelin' Grot Rigger





What a great game with exceptional lore.

Like many, it was really the first game the I played exclusively with my mates which set my preferences for hobbies for decades.

Really a shame the way it cratered.

Sincerely hope for a resurrection as I believe it still has much to offer.


Da Groxx, WarBoss of the Da Aff-Kicka Korps (DAKK) 
   
Made in us
Second Story Man





Astonished of Heck

I first saw it on VHS. None of my family wanted to see it in the theater, and I didn't have a job or a driver's license at the time.

Are you a Wolf, a Sheep, or a Hound?
Megavolt wrote:They called me crazy…they called me insane…THEY CALLED ME LOONEY!! and boy, were they right.
 
   
Made in au
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

Da Dez-Urt Groxx wrote:
Sincerely hope for a resurrection as I believe it still has much to offer.
*cough*

Industrial Insanity - My Terrain Blog
"GW really needs to understand 'Less is more' when it comes to AoS." - Wha-Mu-077

 
   
Made in us
Battlefield Tourist




MN

I think I could walk out to the FLGS and get a game of Battletech just as easily as I could War Machine, Infinity, or other similar games.

Not to say it would be easy, but I could still probably land a pick-up game if I was so inclined.

Do you like Free Wargames?
http://bloodandspectacles.blogspot.com/ 
   
Made in es
Stealthy Warhound Titan Princeps






I would say it's easier now than it's been in a lot of years.
   
Made in us
Is 'Eavy Metal Calling?





Affton, MO. USA

Got to play my second game EVER this weekend. Had fun, it was bloody, much Death. 8000point 4 mech lances, he ripped me up with AC20 shots and pilots who were 2/3s, I was playing all greenies at 4/5 but we both lost two mechs and the remaining two were in sad shape on both sides, but both my remaining ones were on the ground prone, one was missing a leg. I might have still pulled it out, but the game had gone 3 hours at that point.

LOL, Theo your mind is an amazing place, never change.-camkierhi 9/19/13
I cant believe theo is right.. damn. -comradepanda 9/26/13
None of the strange ideas we had about you involved your sexual orientation..........-Monkeytroll 12/10/13

I'd put you on ignore for that comment, if I could...Alpharius 2/11/14 
   
Made in au
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

Why were your pilots so bad compared to his?

Industrial Insanity - My Terrain Blog
"GW really needs to understand 'Less is more' when it comes to AoS." - Wha-Mu-077

 
   
Made in us
Is 'Eavy Metal Calling?





Affton, MO. USA

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Why were your pilots so bad compared to his?


I had great mechs with trash pilots, his mechs were not so great I guess. He had a banshee, hunchback, grasshopper and a crusader (one of his three lists he had, which I pointed at with no idea of the game) versus my ryokan, hellbringer, archer and shadowhawk (model I had painted, and chose in 5 minutes to make 8000points)

LOL, Theo your mind is an amazing place, never change.-camkierhi 9/19/13
I cant believe theo is right.. damn. -comradepanda 9/26/13
None of the strange ideas we had about you involved your sexual orientation..........-Monkeytroll 12/10/13

I'd put you on ignore for that comment, if I could...Alpharius 2/11/14 
   
Made in es
Stealthy Warhound Titan Princeps






 Theophony wrote:
 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Why were your pilots so bad compared to his?


I had great mechs with trash pilots, his mechs were not so great I guess. He had a banshee, hunchback, grasshopper and a crusader (one of his three lists he had, which I pointed at with no idea of the game) versus my ryokan, hellbringer, archer and shadowhawk (model I had painted, and chose in 5 minutes to make 8000points)


Hm, none of those are bad per se, it would come down to actual variants and the like, but he had a big assault mech (which can range from hot garbage to pretty good, depending on configuration), two good heavies and an AC/20 delivery system. Your archer is similar to the crusader, the regular shadowhawk is a decent medium with trash weapons (you'd be plinking theirs like forever with that), and two clanners, a relatively fast one with heat problems and average armor and paper-thin armored heavy with a whole lot of weapons all over the place...

I'd say you were sort of hosed if the Banshee was one of the good ones.
   
Made in us
Battlefield Tourist




MN

 Theophony wrote:
Got to play my second game EVER this weekend. Had fun, it was bloody, much Death.


Glad to hear you had fun!

I have no idea how to even "point out" mechs....

Do you like Free Wargames?
http://bloodandspectacles.blogspot.com/ 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






Halifax

I think there's a system for calculating 'threat values' and a book somewhere listing all the various published variant TVs.

Racism is the little things - Twitter thread by Eric Lang
TITANOMACHINA Now on Tabletop Simulator in Steam. FREE. Armour Piercing Pi, my Titanomachina Development Blog 
   
Made in us
Second Story Man





Astonished of Heck

 Albertorius wrote:
 Theophony wrote:
 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Why were your pilots so bad compared to his?


I had great mechs with trash pilots, his mechs were not so great I guess. He had a banshee, hunchback, grasshopper and a crusader (one of his three lists he had, which I pointed at with no idea of the game) versus my ryokan, hellbringer, archer and shadowhawk (model I had painted, and chose in 5 minutes to make 8000points)


Hm, none of those are bad per se, it would come down to actual variants and the like, but he had a big assault mech (which can range from hot garbage to pretty good, depending on configuration), two good heavies and an AC/20 delivery system. Your archer is similar to the crusader, the regular shadowhawk is a decent medium with trash weapons (you'd be plinking theirs like forever with that), and two clanners, a relatively fast one with heat problems and average armor and paper-thin armored heavy with a whole lot of weapons all over the place...

I'd say you were sort of hosed if the Banshee was one of the good ones.

Even a mech with trash weapons can do a lot if the gunnery is good. The closer you can get to statistical normality, the more likely to generate a hit. While the good gear is hitting on a 10+ and the other is hitting on an 8+, even a Shadowhawk's weapons will start to tell against someone who an only hit with 3 die results of a 2D6. That is of course why weapons like Pulse Lasers and LB-X are considered so good, along with the inclusion of such things as Targeting Computers and C3, and even worse when you start adding "cheating" Clan pilots to the mix.

Are you a Wolf, a Sheep, or a Hound?
Megavolt wrote:They called me crazy…they called me insane…THEY CALLED ME LOONEY!! and boy, were they right.
 
   
Made in us
Lieutenant General





Florence, KY

Nurglitch wrote:
I think there's a system for calculating 'threat values' and a book somewhere listing all the various published variant TVs.

Those would be 'Battle Values' and can be found on most record sheets or at http://www.masterunitlist.info/

'It is a source of constant consternation that my opponents
cannot correlate their innate inferiority with their inevitable
defeat. It would seem that stupidity is as eternal as war.'

- Nemesor Zahndrekh of the Sautekh Dynasty
Overlord of the Crownworld of Gidrim
 
   
Made in us
Second Story Man





Astonished of Heck

 Ghaz wrote:
Nurglitch wrote:
I think there's a system for calculating 'threat values' and a book somewhere listing all the various published variant TVs.

Those would be 'Battle Values' and can be found on most record sheets or at http://www.masterunitlist.info/

And a lot of the Mech building programs like Solaris Skunk Werks or MegaMekLab will do that for you as well for any of your new construction.

Trust me, it is something you WANT to let the computer handle. I remember when BV first came out and I spent about twice as much time figuring out the BV math of a Mech than deciding what to put on it. What makes it even worse is that the PILOT can alter the numbers. *shudder*

Are you a Wolf, a Sheep, or a Hound?
Megavolt wrote:They called me crazy…they called me insane…THEY CALLED ME LOONEY!! and boy, were they right.
 
   
Made in au
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

Solaris Skunk Werks has a force creation sub-program that I've used quite a few times. It works well.

Industrial Insanity - My Terrain Blog
"GW really needs to understand 'Less is more' when it comes to AoS." - Wha-Mu-077

 
   
Made in es
Stealthy Warhound Titan Princeps






 Charistoph wrote:
Even a mech with trash weapons can do a lot if the gunnery is good. The closer you can get to statistical normality, the more likely to generate a hit. While the good gear is hitting on a 10+ and the other is hitting on an 8+, even a Shadowhawk's weapons will start to tell against someone who an only hit with 3 die results of a 2D6. That is of course why weapons like Pulse Lasers and LB-X are considered so good, along with the inclusion of such things as Targeting Computers and C3, and even worse when you start adding "cheating" Clan pilots to the mix.

Oh I'm well aware, but a Shadowhawk with a green pilot is not gonna do much.
   
Made in us
Lieutenant General





Florence, KY

 Charistoph wrote:
 Ghaz wrote:
Nurglitch wrote:
I think there's a system for calculating 'threat values' and a book somewhere listing all the various published variant TVs.

Those would be 'Battle Values' and can be found on most record sheets or at http://www.masterunitlist.info/

And a lot of the Mech building programs like Solaris Skunk Werks or MegaMekLab will do that for you as well for any of your new construction.

Trust me, it is something you WANT to let the computer handle. I remember when BV first came out and I spent about twice as much time figuring out the BV math of a Mech than deciding what to put on it. What makes it even worse is that the PILOT can alter the numbers. *shudder*

The Master Unit List has a chart modifying the base BV base on Piloting and Gunnery Skill (e.g., as can be seen on the page for the Sojourner A).

'It is a source of constant consternation that my opponents
cannot correlate their innate inferiority with their inevitable
defeat. It would seem that stupidity is as eternal as war.'

- Nemesor Zahndrekh of the Sautekh Dynasty
Overlord of the Crownworld of Gidrim
 
   
Made in us
Second Story Man





Astonished of Heck

 Ghaz wrote:
 Charistoph wrote:
 Ghaz wrote:
Nurglitch wrote:
I think there's a system for calculating 'threat values' and a book somewhere listing all the various published variant TVs.

Those would be 'Battle Values' and can be found on most record sheets or at http://www.masterunitlist.info/

And a lot of the Mech building programs like Solaris Skunk Werks or MegaMekLab will do that for you as well for any of your new construction.

Trust me, it is something you WANT to let the computer handle. I remember when BV first came out and I spent about twice as much time figuring out the BV math of a Mech than deciding what to put on it. What makes it even worse is that the PILOT can alter the numbers. *shudder*

The Master Unit List has a chart modifying the base BV base on Piloting and Gunnery Skill (e.g., as can be seen on the page for the Sojourner A).

The MUL doesn't have anything on something one designs for oneself, such as my Introtech Thanatos or Cauldron-Born.

Are you a Wolf, a Sheep, or a Hound?
Megavolt wrote:They called me crazy…they called me insane…THEY CALLED ME LOONEY!! and boy, were they right.
 
   
Made in us
Lieutenant General





Florence, KY

My bad as I missed the 'new construction' bit and we usually don't use custom 'mechs for the most part (outside of custom OmniMech configurations).

'It is a source of constant consternation that my opponents
cannot correlate their innate inferiority with their inevitable
defeat. It would seem that stupidity is as eternal as war.'

- Nemesor Zahndrekh of the Sautekh Dynasty
Overlord of the Crownworld of Gidrim
 
   
Made in us
Second Story Man





Astonished of Heck

 Ghaz wrote:
My bad as I missed the 'new construction' bit and we usually don't use custom 'mechs for the most part (outside of custom OmniMech configurations).

Well, some people want to use their models for the Mech they are using (probably due to 40K WYSIWYG infection), but there are some people who are against Clan equipment (admittedly, it is very powerful) so if I want to use a Cauldron-Born model, I need to downgrade it. Some people like to stick to Introtech, which means in order to use some of my models (like a Thanatos and Starslayer) and keep its style, that needs to be downgraded, too. In these situations, utilizing such "new construction" systems are required.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/04/29 02:22:27


Are you a Wolf, a Sheep, or a Hound?
Megavolt wrote:They called me crazy…they called me insane…THEY CALLED ME LOONEY!! and boy, were they right.
 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran





Considering how much of the game I have played, I actually dislike most of it. The aesthetic and lore just don't do much for me. It is the only game I can think of that I would say is to crunchy for me.

However, I always seem to get talked into a random game at conventions. Usually around 2am. Give me some pages, tell me what numbers I need to roll, and watch me do something dumb/epic.

   
Made in es
Stealthy Warhound Titan Princeps






Veldrain wrote:
Considering how much of the game I have played, I actually dislike most of it. The aesthetic and lore just don't do much for me. It is the only game I can think of that I would say is to crunchy for me.

However, I always seem to get talked into a random game at conventions. Usually around 2am. Give me some pages, tell me what numbers I need to roll, and watch me do something dumb/epic.


You should get out of abusive relationships, you know
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran





 Albertorius wrote:
Veldrain wrote:
Considering how much of the game I have played, I actually dislike most of it. The aesthetic and lore just don't do much for me. It is the only game I can think of that I would say is to crunchy for me.

However, I always seem to get talked into a random game at conventions. Usually around 2am. Give me some pages, tell me what numbers I need to roll, and watch me do something dumb/epic.


You should get out of abusive relationships, you know


The worst part is it does not even involve alcohol.
   
Made in us
Abel





Washington State

The best way to up any BTech game is to allow players to build or modify their own mechs. Without some kind of limit imposed on mech construction (technology available, mech chassis, etc. etc), you get some seriously OP and meta breaking mechs.

There are two main play groups for Btech: Before the Clans, and After the Clans. Those are further divided up a bit more. Before the Clans is three subgroups: Star League era (up to about 2800 or so), then Pre-3025, and Post 3025-3049 when the Clans invade.

Post Clan invasion is usually 3050-3052, then 3052-3067 when the Inner Sphere finally catches up to the Clan's Technology and we start seeing new stuff (proto-mechs, new Elementals, Quad Mechs). After 3067 is when you start getting into this weird place of Battletech. This is about the time we see the rise and fall of the new Star League, fracturing of the Clans, the FedCom civil war starts, and then the COMSTAR Jihad that leads into the Mechwarrior: Dark Age of 3132 (see Wizkids "Clicky Tech"). For a lot of players, for all intents and purposes, Battletech ends with the Technical Readout 3067. Catalyst Game Labs did put out a Technical Readout 3075, 3080, Prototypes, and a 3145. I believe Catalyst is actually slowly going back and revising everything. They just got to the beginning of the Clan Invasion of 3049 (3050).

1.0 Before the Clans
1.1 Star League era: lots of high end Tech rivaling and surpassing Clan tech but using "old school" mechs
1.2 Pre-3025: "Classic Battletech"
1.3 3025-3049: Succession Wars

2.0 Clan Invasion
2.1 3050-3052 When the Clans basically kick , take names, and ends with the Battle of Tukayyid.
2.2 3052-3067 Is the 15 years of "non-Clan aggression" from the battle of Tukayyid where we see the rise of a new Star League, fracturing of the Clans, etc. etc.
2.3 Post 3067 and Dark Age when the Clan invasion heats up again, lots of bad stuff happens, and the result is Mechwarrior: Dark Age.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
From my experience, there are some very passionate players out there about what era they plan in. Mentioning anything outside of their era leads to some... intense discussions. Me personally, I'm a "Post Clans" player, and love the Clans. I favor the time period from 3050 to 3067. Prior to 3050, I just feel lame in a 55 Ton Shadowhawk that can either move, or shoot 1-2 weapons without overheating. The game feels like everything has too much armor and not enough firepower. Feels like a "slow" game. See what I mean about passionate players? LOL

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/30 17:38:38


Kara Sloan shoots through Time and Design Space for a Negative Play Experience  
   
Made in us
Second Story Man





Astonished of Heck

 Tamwulf wrote:
The best way to up any BTech game is to allow players to build or modify their own mechs. Without some kind of limit imposed on mech construction (technology available, mech chassis, etc. etc), you get some seriously OP and meta breaking mechs.

Yeah, it is always an area to be careful with. Still downgrading is "easier" than upgrading.

Of course, there are campaign options, but those are usually based on what is available to salvage or whatever lucky cache the campaign master opens up.

 Tamwulf wrote:
There are two main play groups for Btech: Before the Clans, and After the Clans. Those are further divided up a bit more. Before the Clans is three subgroups: Star League era (up to about 2800 or so), then Pre-3025, and Post 3025-3049 when the Clans invade.

Post Clan invasion is usually 3050-3052, then 3052-3067 when the Inner Sphere finally catches up to the Clan's Technology and we start seeing new stuff (proto-mechs, new Elementals, Quad Mechs). After 3067 is when you start getting into this weird place of Battletech. This is about the time we see the rise and fall of the new Star League, fracturing of the Clans, the FedCom civil war starts, and then the COMSTAR Jihad that leads into the Mechwarrior: Dark Age of 3132 (see Wizkids "Clicky Tech"). For a lot of players, for all intents and purposes, Battletech ends with the Technical Readout 3067. Catalyst Game Labs did put out a Technical Readout 3075, 3080, Prototypes, and a 3145. I believe Catalyst is actually slowly going back and revising everything. They just got to the beginning of the Clan Invasion of 3049 (3050).

1.0 Before the Clans
1.1 Star League era: lots of high end Tech rivaling and surpassing Clan tech but using "old school" mechs
1.2 Pre-3025: "Classic Battletech"
1.3 3025-3049: Succession Wars

2.0 Clan Invasion
2.1 3050-3052 When the Clans basically kick , take names, and ends with the Battle of Tukayyid.
2.2 3052-3067 Is the 15 years of "non-Clan aggression" from the battle of Tukayyid where we see the rise of a new Star League, fracturing of the Clans, etc. etc.
2.3 Post 3067 and Dark Age when the Clan invasion heats up again, lots of bad stuff happens, and the result is Mechwarrior: Dark Age.

Some of your dates are off. The Succession Wars usually aludes to the 3rd and 4th Succession War, which were finished with the creation of the St Ives Compact and the loss of a lot of Confederation territory to the Compact and Suns in 3030. The 1st and 2nd were generally too destructive for most people to play ("I kills the regiment with a nuke") and still utilized a lot of Star League equipment that was brought back later. The 3rd Succession War was the interum period where most nations were just scrambling to survive and it was usually a lance conducting a raid to grab parts or resources to keep something running back home. These are the Succession Wars where Introductory Battletech equipment is used, aka the Classic Battletech or IntroTech.

From there it was normal raiding until Federated Commonwealth started aching for more space and started a fight with the Combine in 3039 for the very short War of 3039. It is around this time equipment from several Memory Cores started getting around and restoring Star League Tech (but it was slow until the Clans came).

There is a point were the Federated Commonwealth (created on the eve of the 4th Succession War) gets broken up and they have a civil war as a result. This covers the time from when the New Star League goes out tells the Clans to stop the invasion with a Trial of Refusal to just before the Word of Black starts its Jihad with nuclear fury not seen since the 2nd Succession War. Bad things happen and that starts the Dark Age till some other stuff happens with a guy named Stone who creates a Republic, but I haven't read too much on that part.

 Tamwulf wrote:

From my experience, there are some very passionate players out there about what era they plan in. Mentioning anything outside of their era leads to some... intense discussions. Me personally, I'm a "Post Clans" player, and love the Clans. I favor the time period from 3050 to 3067. Prior to 3050, I just feel lame in a 55 Ton Shadowhawk that can either move, or shoot 1-2 weapons without overheating. The game feels like everything has too much armor and not enough firepower. Feels like a "slow" game. See what I mean about passionate players? LOL

Yeah, Clan equipment totally "cheats", which is why BV and Zelbrigen exists to minimize the cheating. Of course, Star League tech is cheating by Introtech standards, so...

Which is why I like to keep Records Sheets of Introtech for every mech I have for those who like to keep things simple, or just be cheap and put out more units. I also keep Record Sheets of canon upgrades for those models. Currently the only custom machines I have Record Sheets for are IntroTech versions of models which only have upgraded versions, like the Thanatos, Starslayer, and Cauldron-born.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/30 19:57:35


Are you a Wolf, a Sheep, or a Hound?
Megavolt wrote:They called me crazy…they called me insane…THEY CALLED ME LOONEY!! and boy, were they right.
 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





West Michigan, deep in Whitebread, USA

I haven't played much, but I have been "in" the universe in some degree since the late 90's, when i was a kid and drawn to the mech figures.

I see elements of the post-Clan era that I like, but most of what draws me is the late Succession Wars era, or just during the Clan Invasion. To me Battletech has always been "Knights on Nuclear Steeds", and the more the tech advances (or rediscovered, etc) it turns more towards just more of a standard Future Tech setting, to me.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/30 20:52:06




"By this point I'm convinced 100% that every single race in the 40k universe have somehow tapped into the ork ability to just have their tech work because they think it should."  
   
Made in au
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

 Tamwulf wrote:
The best way to up any BTech game is to allow players to build or modify their own mechs. Without some kind of limit imposed on mech construction (technology available, mech chassis, etc. etc), you get some seriously OP and meta breaking mechs.
Custom 'Mechs are fun.

Generally speaking most games we play will have one custom 'Mech per side. Importantly however, it's not just "do whatever you want", but it's based upon the 'Mech that's being customised. In a recent game I had my custom 'Mech be my Urbie, as I thought it'd be fun. So it was an upgrade that swapped out the AC/10 for an LB-10X, and then upgraded the lasers. Friend had a custom Phoenix Hawk with a Clan ER PPC and Streak 4. Neither of them messed up the game in any way.

With the exception of OmniMechs, I take a very 'like for like' approach to customisation. So if something had a weapon of X variety in that mount, a replacement should be as close to that as possible. Major refits where they trade out missiles for energy weapons and whatnot are things that are done with high level equipment, and would often involve changing out targeting systems and internal rearrangement of ammo links and so on. But swapping a PPC for a group of lasers, or replacing a pair of LRM20's with a pair of big MMLs. There's nothing wrong with that.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/01 14:29:20


Industrial Insanity - My Terrain Blog
"GW really needs to understand 'Less is more' when it comes to AoS." - Wha-Mu-077

 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Generally, in the groups I've played with, customs were saved for in campaigns. For pick up battles, stock configurations and variants were the name of the game.
   
Made in us
Sinister Chaos Marine




DC Metro

 Tamwulf wrote:

From my experience, there are some very passionate players out there about what era they plan in. Mentioning anything outside of their era leads to some... intense discussions. Me personally, I'm a "Post Clans" player, and love the Clans. I favor the time period from 3050 to 3067. Prior to 3050, I just feel lame in a 55 Ton Shadowhawk that can either move, or shoot 1-2 weapons without overheating. The game feels like everything has too much armor and not enough firepower. Feels like a "slow" game. See what I mean about passionate players? LOL


Are you sure you're describing a Shadow Hawk and not a Griffin? The stock Shadow Hawk and Wolverine were both pretty heat friendly barring an engine hit or 2.

The thing that got me about Clan tech was between targeting computers, clan pilots and pulse lasers, light mechs couldn't get high enough modifiers to be survivable.
   
Made in us
Second Story Man





Astonished of Heck

cannonfodr wrote:
 Tamwulf wrote:

From my experience, there are some very passionate players out there about what era they plan in. Mentioning anything outside of their era leads to some... intense discussions. Me personally, I'm a "Post Clans" player, and love the Clans. I favor the time period from 3050 to 3067. Prior to 3050, I just feel lame in a 55 Ton Shadowhawk that can either move, or shoot 1-2 weapons without overheating. The game feels like everything has too much armor and not enough firepower. Feels like a "slow" game. See what I mean about passionate players? LOL


Are you sure you're describing a Shadow Hawk and not a Griffin? The stock Shadow Hawk and Wolverine were both pretty heat friendly barring an engine hit or 2.

The thing that got me about Clan tech was between targeting computers, clan pilots and pulse lasers, light mechs couldn't get high enough modifiers to be survivable.

It depends on the variant, really. Some can actually light up quite hot if you're not careful. In most cases they swapped out the AC/5 for either a PPC or Large Laser and didn't do much in installing heat sinks to cover the 7-9 heat difference.

For reference, look up the WVR-6M and SHD-2K, especially if someone keeps the SRM and Med Laser on the 2K instead of the heat sinks.

Are you a Wolf, a Sheep, or a Hound?
Megavolt wrote:They called me crazy…they called me insane…THEY CALLED ME LOONEY!! and boy, were they right.
 
   
 
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