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 addnid wrote:
Extra AP on the choppa is nearly just as important as the shift to toughness 5

How many Storm shields are you seeing in competitive play these days? how many invulnerable saves that don't care about AP? The -1AP is definitely a buff, but its been pretty nicely ignored by a lot of lists as of late. It will be important to see what the points cost for these guys is.

SemperMortis wrote:

 addnid wrote:
Extra AP on the choppa is nearly just as important as the shift to toughness 5

How many Storm shields are you seeing in competitive play these days? how many invulnerable saves that don't care about AP? The -1AP is definitely a buff, but its been pretty nicely ignored by a lot of lists as of late. It will be important to see what the points cost for these guys is.

Storm shields in power armour make for 2+/4++ save. Ap1 on these targets matter a lot. I don’t understand your point. Many units withinvul saves also have a normal save, often one point better than the invul.

 addnid wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:

 addnid wrote:
Extra AP on the choppa is nearly just as important as the shift to toughness 5

How many Storm shields are you seeing in competitive play these days? how many invulnerable saves that don't care about AP? The -1AP is definitely a buff, but its been pretty nicely ignored by a lot of lists as of late. It will be important to see what the points cost for these guys is.

Storm shields in power armour make for 2+/4++ save. Ap1 on these targets matter a lot. I don’t understand your point. Many units withinvul saves also have a normal save, often one point better than the invul.

Against a bog standard Marine it matters, you are right, but it doesn't against a 2+ save unit, it doesn't matter against a unit with just the invuln save...like all daemons basically, It doesn't matter against units that rely on their FNP. I think its still a buff, but not as important as that T5 buff. Don't get me wrong, i'll gladly take the 3+ save against a Marine with a Stormshield rather than letting it have 2+

SemperMortis wrote:

 addnid wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:

 addnid wrote:
Extra AP on the choppa is nearly just as important as the shift to toughness 5

How many Storm shields are you seeing in competitive play these days? how many invulnerable saves that don't care about AP? The -1AP is definitely a buff, but its been pretty nicely ignored by a lot of lists as of late. It will be important to see what the points cost for these guys is.

Storm shields in power armour make for 2+/4++ save. Ap1 on these targets matter a lot. I don’t understand your point. Many units withinvul saves also have a normal save, often one point better than the invul.

Against a bog standard Marine it matters, you are right, but it doesn't against a 2+ save unit, it doesn't matter against a unit with just the invuln save...like all daemons basically, It doesn't matter against units that rely on their FNP. I think its still a buff, but not as important as that T5 buff. Don't get me wrong, i'll gladly take the 3+ save against a Marine with a Stormshield rather than letting it have 2+

AP0 to AP-1 is probably the biggest jump in power for any weapon and nearly no unit ignores it with the exception of termies with stormshields. I mean, T5 is relevant but for a offensive oriented unit like ork boyz the AP -1 is much more relevant.

 Galas wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:

 addnid wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:

 addnid wrote:
Extra AP on the choppa is nearly just as important as the shift to toughness 5

How many Storm shields are you seeing in competitive play these days? how many invulnerable saves that don't care about AP? The -1AP is definitely a buff, but its been pretty nicely ignored by a lot of lists as of late. It will be important to see what the points cost for these guys is.

Storm shields in power armour make for 2+/4++ save. Ap1 on these targets matter a lot. I don’t understand your point. Many units withinvul saves also have a normal save, often one point better than the invul.

Against a bog standard Marine it matters, you are right, but it doesn't against a 2+ save unit, it doesn't matter against a unit with just the invuln save...like all daemons basically, It doesn't matter against units that rely on their FNP. I think its still a buff, but not as important as that T5 buff. Don't get me wrong, i'll gladly take the 3+ save against a Marine with a Stormshield rather than letting it have 2+

AP0 to AP-1 is probably the biggest jump in power for any weapon and nearly no unit ignores it with the exception of termies with stormshields. I mean, T5 is relevant but for a offensive oriented unit like ork boyz the AP -1 is much more relevant.

Agree, -1 AP is much more important than T5. Ork boyz needed more damage much more urgently than T5.

T5 won't be only on boyz though. For units like lootaz, tankbustas, burnaz, nobz and MANz T5 will be great changes. I also hope for T6 bikers and koptas.

SemperMortis 798607 11137134 wrote:

Against a bog standard Marine it matters, you are right, but it doesn't against a 2+ save unit, it doesn't matter against a unit with just the invuln save...like all daemons basically, It doesn't matter against units that rely on their FNP. I think its still a buff, but not as important as that T5 buff. Don't get me wrong, i'll gladly take the 3+ save against a Marine with a Stormshield rather than letting it have 2+

Oh trust me +2sv units, without stormshields don't like the idea of -1AP .

 Jidmah wrote:


Agree, -1 AP is much more important than T5. Ork boyz needed more damage much more urgently than T5.

True, but AP-1 on choppas was basically granted considering the chainsword's profile (and I'm also expecting AP-1 on big choppas and dakkaguns). I wouldn't have bet on a buff on the orks' durability to be honest.

 Blackie wrote:
True, but AP-1 on choppas was basically granted considering the chainsword's profile (and I'm also expecting AP-1 on big choppas and dakkaguns). I wouldn't have bet on a buff on the orks' durability to be honest.

I've been playing orks for too long to take anything as granted, especially not buffs to marines spilling over to dirty xenos npcs

 Galas wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:

 addnid wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:

 addnid wrote:
Extra AP on the choppa is nearly just as important as the shift to toughness 5

How many Storm shields are you seeing in competitive play these days? how many invulnerable saves that don't care about AP? The -1AP is definitely a buff, but its been pretty nicely ignored by a lot of lists as of late. It will be important to see what the points cost for these guys is.

Storm shields in power armour make for 2+/4++ save. Ap1 on these targets matter a lot. I don’t understand your point. Many units withinvul saves also have a normal save, often one point better than the invul.

Against a bog standard Marine it matters, you are right, but it doesn't against a 2+ save unit, it doesn't matter against a unit with just the invuln save...like all daemons basically, It doesn't matter against units that rely on their FNP. I think its still a buff, but not as important as that T5 buff. Don't get me wrong, i'll gladly take the 3+ save against a Marine with a Stormshield rather than letting it have 2+

AP0 to AP-1 is probably the biggest jump in power for any weapon and nearly no unit ignores it with the exception of termies with stormshields. I mean, T5 is relevant but for a offensive oriented unit like ork boyz the AP -1 is much more relevant.

Stormshields and ever increasing amount of units with "ignore -1 AP" like valorous heart have.

Ah yes the "ignore -1 AP" is a thing. But I hope we will have some way of increasing AP choppas (even a 2 PC strat for one fight phase could be interesting) to get around that.
We probably won't but who knows (we are filthy xenos scum after all, sadly)

Hopefully this results in a better, healthier ork playstyle where they strip away all the current crutches that orks rely on to be playable and just give Orks a useful, workable statline in the current game that makes them make sense at 8ppm.

I.e., get rid of da jump (or make it less powerful, like how it used to bring the weirdboy along with basically making it once only power), get rid of Endless Green Tide, reduce reliance on the KFF mek, and just allow Orks to be functional 8pt models with T5 and AP-1 choppas or Rapid Fire 2 Shootas.

In my ideal world, DakkaDakkaDakka would change to be "if you Advance, any Heavy or Rapid Fire weapon becomes Assault and you ignore the penalty for advancing and shooting Assault" and most ork weapons just become Rapid Fire their current Assault value. Maybe not rokkits, but all the shooty stuff.

Then, increase Toughness, add Ramshackle to all the vehicles like in FW index, and orks are looking pretty good. Don't add dumb doctrine-abilities for going all orks (as opposed to fething what?) don't add pick'n'mix bloaty subfaction traits, add point costs to custom jobs and biggest boss and such and just, call it good. Give us a clean decent fun ruleset. Please god.

....I know GW won't, obviously, i'm just expressing what I'd like.

 the_scotsman wrote:
Hopefully this results in a better, healthier ork playstyle where they strip away all the current crutches that orks rely on to be playable and just give Orks a useful, workable statline in the current game that makes them make sense at 8ppm.

I.e., get rid of da jump (or make it less powerful, like how it used to bring the weirdboy along with basically making it once only power), get rid of Endless Green Tide, reduce reliance on the KFF mek, and just allow Orks to be functional 8pt models with T5 and AP-1 choppas or Rapid Fire 2 Shootas.

In my ideal world, DakkaDakkaDakka would change to be "if you Advance, any Heavy or Rapid Fire weapon becomes Assault and you ignore the penalty for advancing and shooting Assault" and most ork weapons just become Rapid Fire their current Assault value. Maybe not rokkits, but all the shooty stuff.

Then, increase Toughness, add Ramshackle to all the vehicles like in FW index, and orks are looking pretty good. Don't add dumb doctrine-abilities for going all orks (as opposed to fething what?) don't add pick'n'mix bloaty subfaction traits, add point costs to custom jobs and biggest boss and such and just, call it good. Give us a clean decent fun ruleset. Please god.

....I know GW won't, obviously, i'm just expressing what I'd like.

I think that da jump could be still included yet fixed sort of by having it teleport boyz up to a certain distance from the weirdboy. I'd love something like breath of gorkamorka from aos, double movement and give fly, if you roll good enough it's triple.
I also think that Kff needs some competition for being the invuln source, 5++ bioniks come to mind, maybe have kff extend from transports again?
I think instead of a doctrine a full on one-turn WAAAGH would be proppa orky, maybe just like an extra attack on every model and extra shot for every gun?
I like your dakka dakka changes, does maybe call for blasty blasty blasty, best use for dakka is getting 2 hits from a rokkit.
I really hope ramshackle becomes a standard thing for any ork thing with armor, even meganobz, who really need a durability boost.

 addnid wrote:
Ah yes the "ignore -1 AP" is a thing. But I hope we will have some way of increasing AP choppas (even a 2 PC strat for one fight phase could be interesting) to get around that.
We probably won't but who knows (we are filthy xenos scum after all, sadly)

Is this really a thing outside of sisters? I mean, if a unit of orks with choppas connects with a unit of sisters, I don't really mind losing that 1 AP - dem nuns are going to go *krunch* either way.

given we keep specialist mobz, we can do that with huntaz i think.