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mrFickle wrote:
It’s a shame the GW can’t try and promote all armies a bit more equally. when I started in 2nd eldar were such a big thing and now if you joined the hobby you’d probably think they were a bit of a minority or niche army


Honestly, what eldar unit could you market as the "face" of the faction? I think the most well known ones are Yvraine, that Farseer from DoW (Macha?) and Banshees. Not exactly a line-up to draw in interested people.

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Eldar have wound up in the same bubble Sisters did - that of not being unpopular, but not being popular enough to get a production slot in a long time.

We also know that GW is "design led" so there's always a random chance that the reason we've not seen anything is that no one on the team has bothered to make anything and that without big sales to make management push them, there's no pressure on them.


Eldar aren't as bad as Sisters, they are being drip fed models now and then; but they've wound up with a big range and need more than drip feeding. We are currently in the period before, what I presume, is the build up to a big release for them. However if that comes in 1 year or 10 years is impossible to say

   
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It's true they don't seem to have much of an established face right now, but I think Warlocks would be a good 'face' unit for the Eldar.

They're elven space jedi, should be a pretty easy sell for a number of nerds I would expect, just need to put the effort in and do a nice new seer council box.

Well, maybe do the seer council after all of the aspect warriors and phoenix lords are up to date.
   
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IMO Sisters are a better representation of the Imperium than the new clean and generic sci-fi looking Primaris units. (Bladeguard being the one exception).

Give me my grim-dark, slowly dying, gothic roman space empire!!!!
   
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Warning From Magnus? Not Listening!






Space Marines have been clean scifi models since like 3rd edition.
Scratch that if you look for Oldhammer stuff on social media it's a bunch of super bright, goblin green based models especially SM. SM have never been majority grimdark models, only some like Templars or Legion of the Damned.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/15 10:17:08


 
   
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Have I fallen into an alternate dimension? Eldar are having a bad year after having had a good two and a half decades.

I feel the fact they've fallen into the Ynnari plot hole probably hasn't done them much good but the idea they are getting the Sisters treatment seems an incredible overreaction.

Wouldn't be at all surprised if their codex is being held back on the grounds that there will be a sizeable Eldar wave in 2022.
   
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 Jidmah wrote:
mrFickle wrote:
It’s a shame the GW can’t try and promote all armies a bit more equally. when I started in 2nd eldar were such a big thing and now if you joined the hobby you’d probably think they were a bit of a minority or niche army


Honestly, what eldar unit could you market as the "face" of the faction? I think the most well known ones are Yvraine, that Farseer from DoW (Macha?) and Banshees. Not exactly a line-up to draw in interested people.


Only because they have allowed them to become dated. They have the potential to be a really visually stunning offset to the likes of SOB. Contrast is good.
   
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Tyel wrote:
Have I fallen into an alternate dimension? Eldar are having a bad year after having had a good two and a half decades.

I feel the fact they've fallen into the Ynnari plot hole probably hasn't done them much good but the idea they are getting the Sisters treatment seems an incredible overreaction.

Wouldn't be at all surprised if their codex is being held back on the grounds that there will be a sizeable Eldar wave in 2022.


Eldar had a some good years, but for most of 5th they were basically trash tier sadly. for me that was good in that i picked up a few eldar armies for cheap. it was 6th where they were brought back to a top tier army so 2012 through around 2019 so that's 7 years. a good run but not decades long

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 G00fySmiley wrote:
Tyel wrote:
Have I fallen into an alternate dimension? Eldar are having a bad year after having had a good two and a half decades.

I feel the fact they've fallen into the Ynnari plot hole probably hasn't done them much good but the idea they are getting the Sisters treatment seems an incredible overreaction.

Wouldn't be at all surprised if their codex is being held back on the grounds that there will be a sizeable Eldar wave in 2022.


Eldar had a some good years, but for most of 5th they were basically trash tier sadly. for me that was good in that i picked up a few eldar armies for cheap. it was 6th where they were brought back to a top tier army so 2012 through around 2019 so that's 7 years. a good run but not decades long


Those 7 years of eldar domination (and tau) felt very long to me. Can't stand the ugly minis anymore, and I am quite happy to stomp them now. May these days last until... 2023. Then CW eldar can shine again, they will have carried out the sentance they deserved

Sister is a much better face for 40k anyway IMHO

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/15 12:04:05


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On topic, I think that it's great that Sisters are getting more screentime, and I hope they genuinely replace Marines as the poster boy. Sororitas are one of the things that's genuinely unique to 40k. Not Tolkien, not Dune - not even really Catholic nuns, since I don't recall any of them donning plate armor and joining the crusades.

On the tangent, I think Eldar are actually a more interesting Xenos faction for 40k than Orks, if we had to pick a Xenos posterboy.

I can't think of a lot of sci-fi (not fantasy) that features "High Elves" the way 40k does. Eldar grav-tanks have a unique look that isn't shared with anything else I can think of, and their infantry could probably be made to look better with good animation and new models that are more dynamic.

Orks are a close second, possibly even tied for 1st, but they are hard to take seriously (just an opinion, but they've always been a bit comical to me, like the DOW Ork who just wants the Inquisitor's hat), and their Mad Max nature seems quite derivative.

Tyranids are the Zerg (I know they're not, but as a forward-facing faction that is what they will appear to the layperson).

Tau could be a competitor as well for Xenos posterboy, but I think they've got an influence from anime that may not have as broad an appeal as High Elves. Could be personal bias showing though.

Necrons are also up there as front-runners, especially with the new models going quite a ways to distance themselves from "Terminator". But I haven't found their narrative that compelling, personally, though in my wildest dreams they share the spotlight with Eldar in some kind of "clash of the ancients" way.

I'm sure I've forgot a xenos but coffee is needed to proceed further.
   
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 Unit1126PLL wrote:
On topic, I think that it's great that Sisters are getting more screentime, and I hope they genuinely replace Marines as the poster boy. Sororitas are one of the things that's genuinely unique to 40k. Not Tolkien, not Dune - not even really Catholic nuns, since I don't recall any of them donning plate armor and joining the crusades.

On the tangent, I think Eldar are actually a more interesting Xenos faction for 40k than Orks, if we had to pick a Xenos posterboy.

I can't think of a lot of sci-fi (not fantasy) that features "High Elves" the way 40k does. Eldar grav-tanks have a unique look that isn't shared with anything else I can think of, and their infantry could probably be made to look better with good animation and new models that are more dynamic.

Orks are a close second, possibly even tied for 1st, but they are hard to take seriously (just an opinion, but they've always been a bit comical to me, like the DOW Ork who just wants the Inquisitor's hat), and their Mad Max nature seems quite derivative.

Tyranids are the Zerg (I know they're not, but as a forward-facing faction that is what they will appear to the layperson).

Tau could be a competitor as well for Xenos posterboy, but I think they've got an influence from anime that may not have as broad an appeal as High Elves. Could be personal bias showing though.

Necrons are also up there as front-runners, especially with the new models going quite a ways to distance themselves from "Terminator". But I haven't found their narrative that compelling, personally, though in my wildest dreams they share the spotlight with Eldar in some kind of "clash of the ancients" way.

I'm sure I've forgot a xenos but coffee is needed to proceed further.


I agree with a lot of this, though Tau have a more compelling chance as a posterboy to bring in younger players imo on the rare occation i bring my Tau or oen of the other players at the FLGS i go to plays Tau ever single kid (liek age 8-19) crowds that table asking about them. the battlesuit builds and more futuristic vehicles make them appeal to the anime crowd i think.

I was thinking with the Mcfarlin sculpts and oen being a Necron that the necrons would get a more prominent spot in advertising and poster. I think the space marine is pretty bland looking but put next to a Necron its pretty easy for our lizard brains to know which one we should be rooting for.

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Made in de
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 Unit1126PLL wrote:
On topic, I think that it's great that Sisters are getting more screentime, and I hope they genuinely replace Marines as the poster boy. Sororitas are one of the things that's genuinely unique to 40k. Not Tolkien, not Dune - not even really Catholic nuns, since I don't recall any of them donning plate armor and joining the crusades.

On the tangent, I think Eldar are actually a more interesting Xenos faction for 40k than Orks, if we had to pick a Xenos posterboy.

I can't think of a lot of sci-fi (not fantasy) that features "High Elves" the way 40k does. Eldar grav-tanks have a unique look that isn't shared with anything else I can think of, and their infantry could probably be made to look better with good animation and new models that are more dynamic.

Orks are a close second, possibly even tied for 1st, but they are hard to take seriously (just an opinion, but they've always been a bit comical to me, like the DOW Ork who just wants the Inquisitor's hat), and their Mad Max nature seems quite derivative.

Tyranids are the Zerg (I know they're not, but as a forward-facing faction that is what they will appear to the layperson).

Tau could be a competitor as well for Xenos posterboy, but I think they've got an influence from anime that may not have as broad an appeal as High Elves. Could be personal bias showing though.

Necrons are also up there as front-runners, especially with the new models going quite a ways to distance themselves from "Terminator". But I haven't found their narrative that compelling, personally, though in my wildest dreams they share the spotlight with Eldar in some kind of "clash of the ancients" way.

I'm sure I've forgot a xenos but coffee is needed to proceed further.


Good write-up. Orks make for a decent enemy for the posterboyz when you are trying to sell 40k as a whole, but if you focus on them it wouldn't do 40k justice. Their silly nature only works when given context, and people just getting into the universe don't have that.

Earth is not flat
Vaccines work
We've been to the moon
Climate change is real
Chemtrails aren't a thing
Evolution is a fact
Orks are not a melee army
Stand up for science!
 
   
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You don’t think SOB are “inspired” by dune?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I would say they are inspired by dune but as GW have wanted to create actual IP I think most of their products have moved away from the inspirational material that formed their creation.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/15 12:43:20


 
   
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mrFickle wrote:
You don’t think SOB are “inspired” by dune?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I would say they are inspired by dune but as GW have wanted to create actual IP I think most of their products have moved away from the inspirational material that formed their creation.


Really? What part of Dune do Sisters remind you of?

Closest thing I can think is the Bene Gesserit, but the similarity ends with "religious women" which is shared with nuns and stuff and isn't a faction identity as much as it is two of many descriptors.

Though imagining Celestine with The Voice and the Sororitas enacting a long-term birth and eugenics program to recreate the Emperor is kinda fun.
   
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Well, we’re dealing with the borrowing of ideas not specifics, so of course there are the bene gesserit nuns; religious warriors, but they are more politically active and engage in espionage rather than a formal army. But then there are the fish speakers, an army created by Leto 2 and trained to be superior warriors and fanatical devotees.

So squish those ideas together, overlay the well established gothic Christian look of the 40K universe and some bolt guns and we have SOB.

I can’t think of any other sources of all femal armies but I’m sure GW are capable of original ideas aswell.

But even now so we see the borrowing of ideas; crossing the rubicon, the council of nicea for example

   
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Tyranids aren't Zerg.

Zerg are Tyranids, because for once, GW got there first. I mean, point taken- they are certainly equivalent; but GW has borrowed so much, that when someone actually borrows from them, I like to give GW some props.

Of course, both Tyranids and Zerg are derivative of Starship Troopers- though I'm not sure if the book lines up with the movie, and Nids predate the movie too.

GSC, of course, are heavily derivative of Aliens, though the hybridization aspect was not present until Alien 3. Kind of a cool little symbiosis; Aliens inspires GSC, but GW twists slightly; this GW twist in turn finds its way back into the Alien franchise in later installments.

Back on topic: the reason I mention Guard as a co-poster faction is that Marines, appearing helmeted more often than bare headed, are outside a gender binary. So if you want a balanced poster for the Imperium, you put a Sister and a Guardsman side by side, appealing male and female players, and then you have the 8 foot tall, cold, armoured super-soldier centered behind them.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/15 14:37:44


 
   
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UK

First generation Hormagaunts were Giger Aliens

   
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 Unit1126PLL wrote:
mrFickle wrote:
You don’t think SOB are “inspired” by dune?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I would say they are inspired by dune but as GW have wanted to create actual IP I think most of their products have moved away from the inspirational material that formed their creation.


Really? What part of Dune do Sisters remind you of?

Closest thing I can think is the Bene Gesserit, but the similarity ends with "religious women" which is shared with nuns and stuff and isn't a faction identity as much as it is two of many descriptors.

Though imagining Celestine with The Voice and the Sororitas enacting a long-term birth and eugenics program to recreate the Emperor is kinda fun.

The only real Bene Gesserit thing the Sisters do is through the Order Famulous who serve the noble houses, both policing them and engineering them to be loyal to the Emperor through various marriages and other bonds. Plus they basically breed the nobles for specific traits.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Overread wrote:
First generation Hormagaunts were Giger Aliens

Well, four armed ones.


I like how they look now better to be honest.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/15 16:15:49


 
   
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Sisters are carbon copy of Letos II Fish Speakers. A fanatical all female army, that is also used to police the sociaty, but also has its hands in schooling, spying etc.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/15 18:43:37


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I think the issue with making Craftworld Eldar the posterboy Xenos faction is that narratively they don't really play the antagonist role very well. Yes, the Imperium is bad, but Orks and Tyranids are arguably worse and just as antagonistic. The Necrons are roughly on the same level as the Imperium, but that gives them enough room to be an expansionist antagonist that the "heroes" have to defend against.

All flavours of Eldar are more on the small-scale and hyper-focused in their role. Even Drukhari are very limited in their goals and impact on the wider setting.

None of this is incapable of being changed, but changing it would require really big rewrites to the core lore while also bringing with it the potential to piss a lot of people off. I like that Craftworld Eldar are objectively less evil than the Imperium and I like that they're not actively expansionist in their goals. Changing that so they could be a posterboy enemy for Space Marines to fight could severely jeopardize their actual appeal.

And it would be unwise to underestimate their appeal. Eldar have historically been a very high selling faction, their lack of popularity now is a comparative thing; the sped-up release schedule and number of new models being pumped out has left them behind and outdated which means their previously large fanbase has not grown alongside the growth of the general fandom. But they are still recognised as being an iconic part of the game and setting and a big part of that is the unique place they hold within it.
   
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This is a really interesting thread! Thanks for all the deep diving, great read with a cup of coffee.

Too many notes to comment on so i'll start here.

I think necrons really could have (and should have) taken more of a front and centre position. The problem is they designed the sculpts of faces with noses! It makes them look childish and derivative of humans.

Given the world we live in with more and more coders, AI, machine learning etc....GW could have run wild with necron lore. I think they messed the sculpt re-design up though by making them feel too human "pet monsters" and not enough "cybernetic tomb kings".

SOB are a great anthropomorphic face of 40k lore.The gothic design is good and fairly unique to "warhammer".

   
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PenitentJake wrote:
Tyranids aren't Zerg.

Zerg are Tyranids, because for once, GW got there first. I mean, point taken- they are certainly equivalent; but GW has borrowed so much, that when someone actually borrows from them, I like to give GW some props.
*ahem*



They got their first. And second. Pretty impressive when you think about it.

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 H.B.M.C. wrote:
PenitentJake wrote:
Tyranids aren't Zerg.

Zerg are Tyranids, because for once, GW got there first. I mean, point taken- they are certainly equivalent; but GW has borrowed so much, that when someone actually borrows from them, I like to give GW some props.
*ahem*



They got their first. And second. Pretty impressive when you think about it.

GW was working with Blizzard at the time, so it's likely it was Blizzard working off GW's concept sketches and the like before the contract fell through but beat them to market.
   
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Haha, those original Tyranid warriors always make me laugh so hard.
   
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 Arachnofiend wrote:
The lack of marketing for eldar has always been pretty puzzling to me. I hate them but I've seen enough franchises to know that the most popular factions are always the "cool" humans followed by the high elves. It's probably the same dumb marketing logic that had Sisters sitting in the pit for years despite obviously being a potential big seller.


GW has a history of choking on elf armies, and ending up with no idea where to take them. We've seen this in both systems sadly, and too often their 'epiphany' after five, seven or ten years is 'make it weird.' Which is how elf armies have wandered off into trees, flying sharks and kangaroos.

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 Arachnofiend wrote:
The lack of marketing for eldar has always been pretty puzzling to me. I hate them but I've seen enough franchises to know that the most popular factions are always the "cool" humans followed by the high elves. It's probably the same dumb marketing logic that had Sisters sitting in the pit for years despite obviously being a potential big seller.


If they wanted to market Craftworlders they'd have to face up to the inconsistency of marketing a cool army with a twenty-year-old minis range because their art team doesn't think the Craftworlds are that cool.

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Very cool enlightenment on the Zerg vs Tyranids thing- thanks for the pic. And I also didn't know that Blizzard and GW had formally consulted.

It's amazing how those old memories get out of sequence in time. Great trip down memory lane though.
   
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PenitentJake wrote:
Very cool enlightenment on the Zerg vs Tyranids thing- thanks for the pic. And I also didn't know that Blizzard and GW had formally consulted.

It's amazing how those old memories get out of sequence in time. Great trip down memory lane though.

There was a contract back when Blizzard was working on Warcraft and Starcraft where they were going to make Warhammer based games, but the deal fell through so Blizzard reworked it into their own setting.
   
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 H.B.M.C. wrote:
PenitentJake wrote:
Tyranids aren't Zerg.

Zerg are Tyranids, because for once, GW got there first. I mean, point taken- they are certainly equivalent; but GW has borrowed so much, that when someone actually borrows from them, I like to give GW some props.
*ahem*



They got their first. And second. Pretty impressive when you think about it.


I think is clear the "new" Tyranids took the zerg design. The Mantifexes are clearly just Hydralisks.

But is funny how the Ultralisk is basically a OG Carnifex:

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 Crimson Devil wrote:

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sisters are women in power armor so they're a natural counterpart to the "guys in power armor" that is space marines. if one wishes to be inclusive with your marketing while not completely changing the lore, giving sisters a prominant position makes sense.

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