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Made in us
Monster-Slaying Daemonhunter





Commissar Andrados wrote:
I never understood how anyone in any army could keep fighting without bullets. No, well very few models have extra bullet clips. It’s a small thing but it’s always bothered me. Orca seem to be the exception. Big ass guns, no ammo.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Orcs. Sorry gotta love spell check.


40k follows the standard wargame abstraction that a model is provisioned with enough ammunition to last the engagement. This is actually pretty reasonable, since like if we say every die thrown to shoot is a short burst of 1-3 rounds, then a single 30 round magazine still wouldn't be empty by the end of turn 5.

Also, pouches for extra magazines are actually pretty common. Guardsmen have them, Sisters have them, a lot of Space Marine models have them, so it's not like these models are only carrying what's in their gun.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/17 17:27:25


Guardsmen, hear me! Cadia may lie in ruin, but her proud people do not! For each brother and sister who gave their lives to Him as martyrs, we will reap a vengeance fiftyfold! Cadia may be no more, but will never be forgotten; our foes shall tremble in fear at the name, for their doom shall come from the barrels of Cadian guns, fired by Cadian hands! Forward, for vengeance and retribution, in His name and the names of our fallen comrades! 
   
Made in us
Stalwart Tribune




Bath

 Gert wrote:


Spoiler:
Of course its all so abstract. We have full blown artillery on the battlefields which should be miles behind the front lines; meanwhile we also have front line battle units, commanders, generals, grand one off leaders and such. The amount of abstract is insane.

The artillery units exist in 40k for the same reason they do in every other TTWG, to allow you to replicate instances in which artillery batteries are directly assaulted, like when the 101st Airborne attacked the German batteries at Brecourt Manor on D-Day.
Generals and other high-ranking officers on the frontlines is how battles were fought during the Napoleonic Wars and for most of human history. It's dumb yes but that's what the Imperium is, dumb.


I feel i should point out that several generals in the 2nd World War were up on the front line, most notably Rommel during the Battle of France, where as a 2 star general in charge of a panzer division, he was routinely just behind the forward troops, seeing the terrain they were fighting over, helping units co-ordinate, etc, etc, often directly watching the fighting though binoculars. And he wasnt the only one, just the most noticeable. during the crossing of the Meuse at Sedan, Heinz Gudieran, a 3 star general in charge of a corps (and almost a third of all tanks in the german army), was over the river while his men were clearing bunks only a few hundred meters away.

Im sure their are simmilar stories on the allied side as well. Generals should be back form the front, yes, but they ended up getting quite close to the fighting anyway, in order to keep in touch with their men and the fighting.

Then it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an` Tommy, 'ow's yer soul? "
But it's " Thin red line of 'eroes " when the drums begin to roll
The drums begin to roll, my boys, the drums begin to roll,
O it's " Thin red line of 'eroes, " when the drums begin to roll.
"Tommy", Rudyard Kipling
Exporitor force kappa-Tercia 500pts Coven of XVth 500pts
Western Host 1000 pts
 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Annandale, VA

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
40k follows the standard wargame abstraction that a model is provisioned with enough ammunition to last the engagement. This is actually pretty reasonable, since like if we say every die thrown to shoot is a short burst of 1-3 rounds, then a single 30 round magazine still wouldn't be empty by the end of turn 5.


If two shots per turn really only represents pulling the trigger 2-6 times, then that means a turn is no more than a couple of seconds and an entire game of 40K represents, like, twenty seconds of combat; there are some weird implications there.
   
Made in gb
Ship's Officer





Bristol (UK)

There's a difference between being near the front line, and being elbow deep is an Ork's chest.
40k tends to go with the latter, which is fairly silly.
   
Made in us
Monster-Slaying Daemonhunter





 catbarf wrote:
 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
40k follows the standard wargame abstraction that a model is provisioned with enough ammunition to last the engagement. This is actually pretty reasonable, since like if we say every die thrown to shoot is a short burst of 1-3 rounds, then a single 30 round magazine still wouldn't be empty by the end of turn 5.


If two shots per turn really only represents pulling the trigger 2-6 times, then that means a turn is no more than a couple of seconds and an entire game of 40K represents, like, twenty seconds of combat; there are some weird implications there.


Traditionally, the abstraction would be held that one "shot" represents ability to attempt to engage a discrete target within the timeframe of a turn. However many pieces of munitions the soldier expends doing that isn't modelled.

The implications aren't really that weird, though. At the scale of the game, the entire action presented isn't more than a few minutes, at most.



xerxeskingofking wrote:
 Gert wrote:


Spoiler:
Of course its all so abstract. We have full blown artillery on the battlefields which should be miles behind the front lines; meanwhile we also have front line battle units, commanders, generals, grand one off leaders and such. The amount of abstract is insane.

The artillery units exist in 40k for the same reason they do in every other TTWG, to allow you to replicate instances in which artillery batteries are directly assaulted, like when the 101st Airborne attacked the German batteries at Brecourt Manor on D-Day.
Generals and other high-ranking officers on the frontlines is how battles were fought during the Napoleonic Wars and for most of human history. It's dumb yes but that's what the Imperium is, dumb.


I feel i should point out that several generals in the 2nd World War were up on the front line, most notably Rommel during the Battle of France, where as a 2 star general in charge of a panzer division, he was routinely just behind the forward troops, seeing the terrain they were fighting over, helping units co-ordinate, etc, etc, often directly watching the fighting though binoculars. And he wasnt the only one, just the most noticeable. during the crossing of the Meuse at Sedan, Heinz Gudieran, a 3 star general in charge of a corps (and almost a third of all tanks in the german army), was over the river while his men were clearing bunks only a few hundred meters away.

Im sure their are simmilar stories on the allied side as well. Generals should be back form the front, yes, but they ended up getting quite close to the fighting anyway, in order to keep in touch with their men and the fighting.


It's worth mention that there are overall pretty few 40k units that are above a company commander, which is fairly appropriate. Most faction's highest ranking generic officer unit is a captain-equivalent.

In Imperial Factions, we've got the following for staff officers [sort of, neither Vahl or Cawl are military officers], in order of descending rank:
Morven Vahl
Roboute Guilliman
Belisarius Cawl
General-Castellan Creed
Junith Erutia
Colonel Straken
Chapter Masters

There's only 1 semi-generic unit there, and there's not many total.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/17 19:15:40


Guardsmen, hear me! Cadia may lie in ruin, but her proud people do not! For each brother and sister who gave their lives to Him as martyrs, we will reap a vengeance fiftyfold! Cadia may be no more, but will never be forgotten; our foes shall tremble in fear at the name, for their doom shall come from the barrels of Cadian guns, fired by Cadian hands! Forward, for vengeance and retribution, in His name and the names of our fallen comrades! 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Annandale, VA

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
Traditionally, the abstraction would be held that one "shot" represents ability to attempt to engage a discrete target within the timeframe of a turn. However many pieces of munitions the soldier expends doing that isn't modelled.

The implications aren't really that weird, though. At the scale of the game, the entire action presented isn't more than a few minutes, at most.


A few minutes of action is more than enough time to need a reload, is my point. I just don't think it's reasonable to say that the game represents such a short amount of time that nobody needs to reload- I mean, most troops in contact are going to dump a mag in less time than it takes the company commander to issue ten discrete orders to different squads/platoons, for example. I just chalk up the lack of LBE and ammo as another don't-think-about-it-too-hard abstraction in a game that is already chock full of them.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/17 19:06:10


 
   
Made in gb
Member of a Lodge? I Can't Say






But the ammo for engagements is there on the models in pouches. They're just optional to put on.
Here they are on the Intercessor sprue.
Spoiler:

And on the Cadian sprue.
Spoiler:

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/17 19:16:59


 
   
Made in au
Regular Dakkanaut




 Gert wrote:
Game=/=background is the basic premise of this. In the lore a SM Tactical Marine carries their Boltgun, a Bolt Pistol, Combat Knife, ammo for both their primary and secondary weapon, Frag and Krak grenades, and potentially other supplies such as nutrient supplements and water. Now, I would rather eat a brick than paint all of that detail on a model and I wager most others would too. So instead GW gives hobbyists some of these options if they want to add them.


Maybe it's like Robcop and all of those things are "inside" the armour. When needed the armour section opens and the equipment comes out.

   
Made in us
Exalted Beastlord




Jarms48 wrote:
 Gert wrote:
Game=/=background is the basic premise of this. In the lore a SM Tactical Marine carries their Boltgun, a Bolt Pistol, Combat Knife, ammo for both their primary and secondary weapon, Frag and Krak grenades, and potentially other supplies such as nutrient supplements and water. Now, I would rather eat a brick than paint all of that detail on a model and I wager most others would too. So instead GW gives hobbyists some of these options if they want to add them.


Maybe it's like Robcop and all of those things are "inside" the armour. When needed the armour section opens and the equipment comes out.


So... no room for internal structure, musculature or actual leg?


---
The main reason is just that a lot of gear takes away from the 'look' of models, especially at small scales.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/17 21:30:32


Efficiency is the highest virtue. 
   
Made in au
Regular Dakkanaut




So... no room for internal structure, musculature or actual leg?


I think I remember seeing someone here, or on Reddit, post a picture of how the scale for First-born marines is pretty off and that there's actually a lot of dead-space between where their actual bodies are and where the armour is. This could explain it.
   
Made in gb
Dakka Veteran



London

 catbarf wrote:
If two shots per turn really only represents pulling the trigger 2-6 times, then that means a turn is no more than a couple of seconds and an entire game of 40K represents, like, twenty seconds of combat; there are some weird implications there.


Jervis when designing Epic A worked to the assumption an engagement in Epic was a game of 40k and an Epic turn was around 15 minutes.

But if you want to be doing real world comparisons the first thing you need to learn is combat is nothing like you imagine it and soldiers aren't spraying fire in all directions. For example take the battle of Long tan. The major engagement lasted from 1608 to 1910 and the troops fought with what they were carrying. 18 Australians died and 24 wounded, with Vietnamese loses at 245+ dead and 200+ wounded. An SLR rifleman carried 3 x 20 round magazines (one in their weapon and two in their webbing) and 60 rounds in boxes in their packs. A two man M60 team carried 12 x 100 7.62 round belts of ammunition for their main weapon. They were severely low on ammunition by the end, but still didn't run out.

   
Made in es
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain




Vigo. Spain.

I read that as if they where fighting for 302 years and was like "WTF did a battle really lasted that long?"

 Crimson Devil wrote:

Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.

ERJAK wrote:
Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.

 
   
Made in gb
Member of a Lodge? I Can't Say






In 40k yes, yes it would.
   
Made in de
Ork Admiral Kroozin Da Kosmos on Da Hulk






I wonder how you got the idea that orks don't bring ammo?

They have tons of backpacks full of ammo belts, extra rokkits and boxes full or ammunition are attached to pretty much every big shoota. Oh, and ammo runts, those are literally gretchin models who are dragging ammo crates after a unit of nobz or flash gits. And that's before you start considering pouches which many orks have as well.

Your average unit of orks probably has more ammunition modeled onto it than an entire army of marines.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/18 19:28:06


Earth is not flat
Vaccines work
We've been to the moon
Climate change is real
Chemtrails aren't a thing
Evolution is a fact
Orks are not a melee army
Stand up for science!
 
   
Made in gb
Ship's Officer





Bristol (UK)

The meme of "whatever an Ork believes just happens" grew so popular people forgot it's a meme and believe it's how Orks actually work.
   
Made in ca
Deranged Necron Destroyer






Necrons have no need for ammunition.

I correct myself, you are our ammunition

*Turns on Gauss Flayer*

Girl Gamers are the best! 
   
Made in us
Rotting Sorcerer of Nurgle






An entire game of 40k is simply an Assault order from Epic zoomed in (per the Epic Armageddon rulebook), so you are looking at what...? 10mins of action at most just given more detail.

All those serfs/Grots/attendants/supply boxes are just off screen, waiting for the next attack.



A GW fan walks into a bar, buys the same drink as yesterday but pays more.

""Unite" is a human word, ... join me or die."

If you break apart my or anyone else's posts line by line I will not read them. 
   
Made in us
Prospector with Steamdrill




Charlotte, NC

 Stormonu wrote:
I know that the non-push fit marine models always came with extra bits on the sprue - grenades, extra clips, etc. These were options all the way back to the RTB01 kit.

However, most people don't bother to put them on the models. As if there was an ammo truck just waiting for each army just off the table, out of sight.


Kind of surprised at that. To me that makes the models a bit boring to just have them run around with no equipment on them. Thus the reason why I always add something on my models. I do try to spread things around so that the models are not loaded down.

For the OP: I know what you mean and see above for my take on using your models without equipment, but I tend to think that most of the engagements that you are playing usually are "weapons and ammo" affairs. Meaning that the units drop packs and then go and do their job. Add on any units that are mechanized,(include drop pods on this) and I would assume that mechanized infantry has some ammunition stores in their vehicles. IIRC the fifth edition book has a part of the rules for heavy weapons where it talks about what the rest of the squad is doing while the heavy weapon is firing. Since the small arms that most infantry are using are not firing the rules said something to the effect that the rest of the squad is either hiding and waiting for orders, improving their position, or getting ammunition for the heavy weapon. Surely if they were sending a team to get a few missile rounds, they would also bring back some ammunition to spread around to the rest of the squad.
   
Made in us
Pulsating Possessed Chaos Marine





Grimtuff wrote:An entire game of 40k is simply an Assault order from Epic zoomed in (per the Epic Armageddon rulebook), so you are looking at what...? 10mins of action at most just given more detail.

All those serfs/Grots/attendants/supply boxes are just off screen, waiting for the next attack.


This. If one were to bring the action on a tabletop to life, it would go by really fast. There would be plenty of ammo left over at the end.
   
Made in us
Prospector with Steamdrill




Charlotte, NC

The_Real_Chris wrote:
I always imagine drop pods of supplies hitting the battlefield as the marines advance keeping them resupplied...


...or Land Speeders and Storm Ravens doing dust off's.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Annandale, VA

The_Real_Chris wrote:
For example take the battle of Long tan. The major engagement lasted from 1608 to 1910 and the troops fought with what they were carrying. 18 Australians died and 24 wounded, with Vietnamese loses at 245+ dead and 200+ wounded. An SLR rifleman carried 3 x 20 round magazines (one in their weapon and two in their webbing) and 60 rounds in boxes in their packs. A two man M60 team carried 12 x 100 7.62 round belts of ammunition for their main weapon. They were severely low on ammunition by the end, but still didn't run out.


Weird example, given the details you've omitted. At Long Tan the Australian infantrymen were running out of ammunition less than an hour into direct engagement and called for aerial resupply by helicopter. Despite successful resupply, another hour later and D Company was once again nearly out of ammo and forced to effect a withdrawal to a more defensible position. They then relied upon artillery guided by their forward observers to hold back the VC until a mechanized relief force could arrive. The aftermath of the engagement led to significant revisions in Commonwealth logistics- the number of spare magazines carried by Australian infantry outright doubled from three to six, platoons were issued more belted ammo to distribute for the gunners, and resupply pallets were switched from boxed ammo to loaded mags so they could be deployed in combat and used immediately.

So, like, not sure why you would choose that battle to support the idea that soldiers don't need to carry much ammo, given that the reaction among everyone involved was pretty much 'holy gak this was a terrible mistake we need as much ammunition as we can physically carry', which they then proceeded to do for the remainder of their involvement in Vietnam.

Even African militants with no LBE take to duct-taping multiple mags together and keeping them on the gun- among Somali fighters I've routinely seen triple-taped mags. VBSS teams carry 6+ mags apiece for engagements expected to last ten minutes or less. Doctrine for SOG in Vietnam was for the pointman to magdump on full-auto while the rest of the unit moved to cover or broke contact. Typical combat loads for American infantrymen in the Middle East are 6+ mags in first-line gear, more mags in second-line, and often spare ammo boxed or on clips. Soviets issued 4 mags per man for mechanized units where troops were expected to pile out of the BMPs at 100m and spend no more than fifteen minutes in contact. As a civilian I was issued an M4 with three mags whenever I deployed to a warzone, and my standing orders were to use it as a last resort for personal defense, not to go looking for an extended firefight.

I could go on; the point being, the idea that just the mag in the gun is sufficient for even fifteen minutes of continuous close contact (ie a wargame where you are shooting at full ROF every turn) is not particularly realistic. It's just a stylistic choice. The scaling of 40K weapons makes a more reasonable combat load inconvenient to model or paint, and extensive LBE isn't fitting with the style of the minis. You can imagine ammo-runners just 'offscreen' or assume routine ammo drops, but from a practical perspective there really is little reason why troops like Cadians shouldn't be just carrying more ammo themselves.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/06/19 17:51:03


 
   
Made in gb
Crazed Spirit of the Defiler




Newcastle

I quite like putting miscellaneous pouches and things on models but really it seems like a scale issue. GW can't make bits on a sprue too small for practical purposes, so any pouches end up being unrealistically bulky and break up the outline of a model

Also imagine yourself as a 40k model, then imagine what that same model looks like with a magazine in a pocket. No different.

Hydra Dominatus 
   
Made in us
Monster-Slaying Daemonhunter





 catbarf wrote:

I could go on; the point being, the idea that just the mag in the gun is sufficient for even fifteen minutes of continuous close contact (ie a wargame where you are shooting at full ROF every turn) is not particularly realistic. It's just a stylistic choice. The scaling of 40K weapons makes a more reasonable combat load inconvenient to model or paint, and extensive LBE isn't fitting with the style of the minis. You can imagine ammo-runners just 'offscreen' or assume routine ammo drops, but from a practical perspective there really is little reason why troops like Cadians shouldn't be just carrying more ammo themselves.


Cadians are also a pretty bad example, because they are carrying 3+ Magazines on each model, each of which is like 100+rounds.

Sisters models [at least the old ones that I have] have a ton of belt pouches, I counted at least 5 on a Seraphim.

Space Marines also have a bunch of ammo pouches, I know that Deathwatch marines and primaris marines have 2-3 of them on their chest.

So models in 40k are carrying extra ammunition.

Also, 15 minutes is probably quite a long time for a 40k battle. More like 5 minutes, probably, at most, given the size of the area, the rate at which units move, and the number of dice they roll for attacks.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/06/19 22:06:41


Guardsmen, hear me! Cadia may lie in ruin, but her proud people do not! For each brother and sister who gave their lives to Him as martyrs, we will reap a vengeance fiftyfold! Cadia may be no more, but will never be forgotten; our foes shall tremble in fear at the name, for their doom shall come from the barrels of Cadian guns, fired by Cadian hands! Forward, for vengeance and retribution, in His name and the names of our fallen comrades! 
   
 
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