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Made in us
Whiteshield Conscript Trooper



Idaho

I never understood how anyone in any army could keep fighting without bullets. No, well very few models have extra bullet clips. It’s a small thing but it’s always bothered me. Orca seem to be the exception. Big ass guns, no ammo.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Orcs. Sorry gotta love spell check.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/15 23:11:02


 
   
Made in us
Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter







Lots of the stuff on the models is very abstract. The weapons are often wildly out of scale (canon says a boltgun is roughly .50 caliber, proportionately a bolter barrel is more like 5" in diameter) to give people more detail to drill/paint, I'm entirely happy accepting that people have extra ammo even when there's none modeled.

Balanced Game: Noun. A game in which all options and choices are worth using.
Homebrew oldhammer project: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/790996.page#10896267
Meridian: Necromunda-based 40k skirmish: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/795374.page 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Annandale, VA

In-universe, a las-cell is good for hundreds of shots and Marines actually have spare mags under their pauldrons etc etc blah blah.

Out-of-universe, LBE doesn't look particularly heroic, and the exaggerated scale of 40K weaponry makes a typical first-line combat load of 6+1 or 8+1 borderline comedic. I've seen some neat models intended to be the Raptors chapter that are just festooned with pouches- works for them; most other chapters end up looking like Rob Liefeld rejects.
   
Made in nl
Jovial Plaguebearer of Nurgle





Well you are right that a lot of models aren't modeled like they could be in protracted combat engagements, but I think it's better that way. Also assuming their gun clips hold a sufficient amount it should be good for 5 turns no? How many times do you really get to shoot with most units, 6-7 times max assuming they make it to the end and got a round of Overwatch/shoot twice in there.
   
Made in nl
Longtime Dakkanaut





Commissar Andrados wrote:
I never understood how anyone in any army could keep fighting without bullets. No, well very few models have extra bullet clips. It’s a small thing but it’s always bothered me. Orca seem to be the exception. Big ass guns, no ammo.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Orcs. Sorry gotta love spell check.
Funny enough, if I remember right, Orks actually need ammo the least since the latent psychic energy of an excited Ork Mob can allow weapons to shoot without ammo.

The simply reason is that models completely loaded with pouches and ammo mags both looks cluttered and is an absolute pain to paint.
   
Made in us
Whiteshield Conscript Trooper



Idaho

I know it’s a small thing. I get models are models. But even the cinematics lack extra ammo. I’m not really complaining. Just one of those details that nag at me, even though I know better. If that makes sense.
   
Made in au
Regular Dakkanaut




I love the old school stormtroopers (not the Kasrkin), they were covered in grenades and ammo pouches all over their armour.
   
Made in au
Growlin' Guntrukk Driver with Killacannon





Commissar Andrados wrote:
I never understood how anyone in any army could keep fighting without bullets. No, well very few models have extra bullet clips. It’s a small thing but it’s always bothered me. Orca seem to be the exception. Big ass guns, no ammo.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Orcs. Sorry gotta love spell check.


A lotta the armies in 40K also have massive sub armies of slaves/serfs. But in the example you used, Orks actually have a model/upgrade called an Ammo Runt, a little grot who's entire job is to supply buckets of bullets or clips/mags to the orks so they can keep on enjoying the act of firing the Dakka. Though it's not represented often on the tabletop or artwork i'd imagine behind every battle is a trail of non-combatants keeping their ammo stocked. (Also every now and then there is terrain pieces that included ammo crates just filled with stuff.)
   
Made in us
Wicked Ghast




There are lots of little add on's you can put on a marine, a lot of those pouches, like the ones on an intercessor's belt, either hold extra magazines or a grenade in the case of the cylindrical one (not sure if that's true, but its the only one thing I can think of that goes there). I think basic tactical marines also have those extra pouches on the sprue, or at least, I know the Blood Anges ones did, not sure about the others.

Reivers have extra pouches across their chest rigging and web gear, so do incursions and infiltrators.

If you put the extra stuff on them, it seems like it would account for some of it.
   
Made in us
Whiteshield Conscript Trooper



Idaho

Off topic: I think the Dark Angel Watchers are Squats.
   
Made in us
VF-1S Valkyrie Squadron Commander





Mississippi

I know that the non-push fit marine models always came with extra bits on the sprue - grenades, extra clips, etc. These were options all the way back to the RTB01 kit.

However, most people don't bother to put them on the models. As if there was an ammo truck just waiting for each army just off the table, out of sight.

It never ends well 
   
Made in au
Longtime Dakkanaut





 AnomanderRake wrote:
Lots of the stuff on the models is very abstract. The weapons are often wildly out of scale (canon says a boltgun is roughly .50 caliber, proportionately a bolter barrel is more like 5" in diameter) to give people more detail to drill/paint, I'm entirely happy accepting that people have extra ammo even when there's none modeled.



standard size is 0.75 (19.05mm), but yeah, they're way oversized. It's a real pet peeve of mine that cosplayers build their beautiful costumes using miniatures weapon scales, giving them giant tonka toy pistols etc. Just looks silly.


About the only army where this concept makes sense is the eldar army, they've mastered miniaturisation and their power cells are good for hundreds of rounds. The solid core ammo in shuriken weaponry is good for thousands of mono molecular shots (they look about 300mm long and even if each disc was sliced at half a mm thick, that's still 600 rounds per stick. I imagine it's probably at least 10 rounds per mm).



   
Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User






Reminds me of an article that I saw c. 15 years ago ( caint remember where...) it was explained that those tabs protruding from the bottom sides of Astartes back packs (early editions) were extra ammo magazines for the boltguns. It was something to the effect that these magazines would be available to the wearer, and also available for the marine directly behind the backpack for reloading.

JD 
   
Made in fi
Ye Lord of The End Times (and a good guy)





Commissar Andrados wrote:
I never understood how anyone in any army could keep fighting without bullets. No, well very few models have extra bullet clips. It’s a small thing but it’s always bothered me. Orca seem to be the exception. Big ass guns, no ammo.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Orcs. Sorry gotta love spell check.


Well seeing 40k is like couple minutes snapshot...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Ordana wrote:
Commissar Andrados wrote:
I never understood how anyone in any army could keep fighting without bullets. No, well very few models have extra bullet clips. It’s a small thing but it’s always bothered me. Orca seem to be the exception. Big ass guns, no ammo.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Orcs. Sorry gotta love spell check.
Funny enough, if I remember right, Orks actually need ammo the least since the latent psychic energy of an excited Ork Mob can allow weapons to shoot without ammo.

The simply reason is that models completely loaded with pouches and ammo mags both looks cluttered and is an absolute pain to paint.


Uuh no players are taking that ork thing too far. To that level fluff refers once in 30 years or so. In universe theorization of ad mech guy. Unreliable source.

It'" like me writing theory of mystical force that binds us all. Do you believe me?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/16 05:33:16


2021 painted/bought: 538/575 
   
Made in fi
Roaring Reaver Rider




My personal secret lair

I know it dodsn't really matter because the models look cool but this does bother me a bit also. I do make sure with my guard that the models have at least 2 amo pouches (not too hard for catachan models) because having two spare laspacks and one in the lasgun will last a guardsman for a while considering that would be as much shots as 18-20 current asault rifle mags.

I shall rule the world someday utilizing my cuteness. And I already have one minion to help me do it!

Hollowman wrote:

Of course it makes sense. When there are a bunch of BDSM clowns doing Olympic gymnast routines throughout your unit, while also cutting off heads, you tend to get a bit distracted.

 
   
Made in ca
Enginseer with a Wrench






A lot of the new Primaris units have optional poses depicting the model reloading their weapon so they definitely do carry extra rounds even if they are not properly depicted carrying them.
   
Made in gb
Ship's Officer





Bristol (UK)

The tabletop representation is weird and struggles when you try to mesh it with reality.

First and fore-most, the models were made to look cool. So they have heroic proportions that end up looking ridiculous if you apply them to the real world. That also applies to what equipment they have and don't have.
Recently I was looking to model some battle damage on some Titanicus titans, but looking at them, I realised they had almost no armour plate facing the expected direction of fire! It's all exposed pipes and servos and stuff.
This is an example of designing a model to look great with lots of little detailing but that falls flat when you look at the real world practicality.

This exasgerated as the tendancy is to faithfully recreate the models when expanding the setting to other depictions. Artwork, video games, cosplays, etc all copy the ridiculous proportions, meaningless greebles, and lack of practical equipment. Stuff like Imperial Armour attempts to present this stuff as "real", including blueprints and cut away artwork and it all seems strange to me.

That's a bit of a ramble to explain why I just handwave this.
If I were to justify it I'd fall back on the "unreliable narrator" justification, clearly all the models we see are just depictions created by a scribe that has never seen a real Space Marine and is just painting their mental image.
I've seen some paintings/drawings of tanks and planes from WW2, and it's clear the artist had only had a brief glance at his subject matter!
   
Made in gb
Imperial Recruit in Training




Nottingham

Imperial Guard models have pouches, presumably they have ammo in.


To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven. 
   
Made in gb
Hungry Ork Hunta Lying in Wait





I for one do NOT need visualised model details of how my Tyranids birth more live ammunition mid fight on my models guns.
   
Made in gb
Member of a Lodge? I Can't Say






Game=/=background is the basic premise of this. In the lore a SM Tactical Marine carries their Boltgun, a Bolt Pistol, Combat Knife, ammo for both their primary and secondary weapon, Frag and Krak grenades, and potentially other supplies such as nutrient supplements and water. Now, I would rather eat a brick than paint all of that detail on a model and I wager most others would too. So instead GW gives hobbyists some of these options if they want to add them.
   
Made in gb
Ship's Officer





Bristol (UK)

If they used non-heroic scaling on models it wouldn't be that hard to model all their equipment.

Look at Bolt Action minis or similar historical troops - they're webbing isn't too intrusive nor is it hard to paint because it's all just fabric pouches.

Compared to painting purity seals, insignia, lenses, and everything else 40k adds in; webbing is nothing when it comes to painting!

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/16 12:30:56


 
   
Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut





Commissar Andrados wrote:
I never understood how anyone in any army could keep fighting without bullets. No, well very few models have extra bullet clips. It’s a small thing but it’s always bothered me. Orca seem to be the exception. Big ass guns, no ammo.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Orcs. Sorry gotta love spell check.


Doesn't matter for the game, but I do love the idea of how hilarious it is that T'au weaponry fires SOOO many shots, and a bunch of them are missiles. I sold all the T'au I had stored away this year, and made jokes in the eBay post that the colony they were stationed at went under due to insane cost-overruns caused by a T'au Commander defending the colony using these types of units.

 Galef wrote:
If you refuse to use rock, you will never beat scissors.
 
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




UK

It's not just ammo - an IG regiment should have masses of transport trucks, supplies and more. It gets worse in AoS where we should see loads of arrow stocks, food, camps, smiths, fires, tents, carts and more.

Thing is 28-32mm rarely represents this side of wargaming because it becomes hard to visualise. We are already suspending a huge mount of reality just to have a the tiny model counts we have on the tabletop.


You tend to see supplies and such appear more in skirmish games where your models might well be more 1:1 representation of reality; or 6-20mm games where the scale change means that you can put more baggage and such down on the tabletop without it swamping the table.

Even then wargames at almost any scale tend to have undersized things. Buildings are often woefully small and, as noted, few sculpts are "real scale." This is often not just a style choice, but also practicalities of materials, assembling and playing with models. A realistic spear is cool, but in the end impractical. Heck people already complain of Lumineth spears and they are at least a bit more realistic!

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/16 13:14:20


   
Made in gb
Lord of the Fleet






London

You have pouches and bandoliers, etc for ammo, but a key point is that the overall game is an abstract narrative of what's actually going on. Your IG force could have runners bring fresh clips and shells from the rear lines. Your Guardsman who's fresh out of ammo could be using his dead buddy's Lasgun. Marines could have grabbed the dead Chaos Marine's bolter ammo (bit unethical but may be necessary).

Yeah it's a bit misrepresented but there are some clear narrative explanations.

   
Made in gb
Member of a Lodge? I Can't Say






Spoiler:
 Overread wrote:
It's not just ammo - an IG regiment should have masses of transport trucks, supplies and more. It gets worse in AoS where we should see loads of arrow stocks, food, camps, smiths, fires, tents, carts and more.

Thing is 28-32mm rarely represents this side of wargaming because it becomes hard to visualise. We are already suspending a huge mount of reality just to have a the tiny model counts we have on the tabletop.


You tend to see supplies and such appear more in skirmish games where your models might well be more 1:1 representation of reality; or 6-20mm games where the scale change means that you can put more baggage and such down on the tabletop without it swamping the table.

Even then wargames at almost any scale tend to have undersized things. Buildings are often woefully small and, as noted, few sculpts are "real scale." This is often not just a style choice, but also practicalities of materials, assembling and playing with models. A realistic spear is cool, but in the end impractical. Heck people already complain of Lumineth spears and they are at least a bit more realistic!

Why would we see the regimental followers on the battlefield? That makes no sense. They're civilians not soldiers.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/16 13:47:30


 
   
Made in gb
Ship's Officer





Bristol (UK)

Not having baggage trains makes sense. They're just completely out of the scope of a 40k tabletop.

You start to see appearing in some 6mm scales because they're trying to represent much larger scales, potentially entire regiments or divisions clashing over potentially hours or days of combat - at this point ammo supply becomes a real concern.
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




UK

 Gert wrote:
Spoiler:
 Overread wrote:
It's not just ammo - an IG regiment should have masses of transport trucks, supplies and more. It gets worse in AoS where we should see loads of arrow stocks, food, camps, smiths, fires, tents, carts and more.

Thing is 28-32mm rarely represents this side of wargaming because it becomes hard to visualise. We are already suspending a huge mount of reality just to have a the tiny model counts we have on the tabletop.


You tend to see supplies and such appear more in skirmish games where your models might well be more 1:1 representation of reality; or 6-20mm games where the scale change means that you can put more baggage and such down on the tabletop without it swamping the table.

Even then wargames at almost any scale tend to have undersized things. Buildings are often woefully small and, as noted, few sculpts are "real scale." This is often not just a style choice, but also practicalities of materials, assembling and playing with models. A realistic spear is cool, but in the end impractical. Heck people already complain of Lumineth spears and they are at least a bit more realistic!

Why would we see the regimental followers on the battlefield? That makes no sense. They're civilians not soldiers.


You'd see them in a siege or defensive position being assaulted. Similarly you'd expect to see armies like Imperial Guard with medics and other support staff around the edges of the battlefield and in the thick of it. You'd also expect to see soldiers with spare ammo moving it around and such.

Of course its all so abstract. We have full blown artillery on the battlefields which should be miles behind the front lines; meanwhile we also have front line battle units, commanders, generals, grand one off leaders and such. The amount of abstract is insane.

   
Made in gb
Member of a Lodge? I Can't Say






Spoiler:
 Overread wrote:

You'd see them in a siege or defensive position being assaulted. Similarly you'd expect to see armies like Imperial Guard with medics and other support staff around the edges of the battlefield and in the thick of it. You'd also expect to see soldiers with spare ammo moving it around and such.

A 40k game is a snapshot of an event, not a whole war. It's day one of the Somme rather than the whole thing. The units in the battle are assumed to be equipped with all the arms and ammo they need for that battle.

However, if you wanted to create a specific scenario where an army was caught mid-resupply, you could do that but GW isn't going to make rules and models for loads of civilian or supply units. Who's going to waste 100pts on a unit of camp followers who can't do anything?
"What's that unit there?"
"Ah yes my Cargo Truck."
"Does it do anything?"
"No."

Spoiler:
Of course its all so abstract. We have full blown artillery on the battlefields which should be miles behind the front lines; meanwhile we also have front line battle units, commanders, generals, grand one off leaders and such. The amount of abstract is insane.

The artillery units exist in 40k for the same reason they do in every other TTWG, to allow you to replicate instances in which artillery batteries are directly assaulted, like when the 101st Airborne attacked the German batteries at Brecourt Manor on D-Day.
Generals and other high-ranking officers on the frontlines is how battles were fought during the Napoleonic Wars and for most of human history. It's dumb yes but that's what the Imperium is, dumb.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/16 19:18:40


 
   
Made in us
Whiteshield Conscript Trooper



Idaho

This was just an observation on my part. I didn’t think this would go as far as it has. Not gunna lie this really is interesting. I just watch a lot of MWG battle reports, read the books. And some of the stories are about 2 hours of fighting. Nothing is mentioned about ammo dumps or whatever. I dunno. If your a story teller, cover the basics.

I’m the end it’s all good. I’m just weird that way when it comes to details.
   
Made in gb
Dakka Veteran



London

I always imagine drop pods of supplies hitting the battlefield as the marines advance keeping them resupplied...
   
 
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