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Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut






a_typical_hero wrote:
OP even specifies in the last paragraph about your local scene / own experiences.

This is not a direct attack on all players.

Yeah, it's wild, and I think somewhat telling, when people get bent out of shape about this sort of thing being brought up, and deploy the old "not ALL gamers!" chestnut.

OP, there's definitely an issue with it in the hobby still, although I think the recognition of – and pushback against – this is gradually becoming more widespread. It can be hard to know when going into a group what the vibe is likely to be, but I find it's a bit easier to check out in advance than in the past with the increased use of Facebook groups and other avenues of communication that allow you to find like-minded players and sound a place/group out before lugging your models all the way over to.

Anyway, I give this thread a day, tops; some people really don't like it when people bring up the toxic elements of the wargaming community.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
As ever when these things come up, this thread's proving quite handy for knowing who needs to be on the old blocklist.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/17 09:25:32


 
   
Made in au
Longtime Dakkanaut




I think as a whole, things like this are getting better. And will depend a lot on local groups and stores.
Online is weird, since people can shield themselves when being active in those community’s.
One of my friends in the USA has stores they won’t go to, but others that are fantastic.

Good luck I think
   
Made in fr
Trazyn's Museum Curator





on the forum. Obviously

Never once encountered someone like that, and I've been around since 4th ed.

There were a couple of hecklers once who called us devil worshipers when they passed by the store, but they were more dumb teenagers than fundamentalist types.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/17 09:37:49


What I have
~4100
~1660

Westwood lives in death!
Peace through power!

A longbeard when it comes to Necrons and WHFB. Grumble Grumble

 
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut



Tallarook, Victoria, Australia

 Nazrak wrote:
a_typical_hero wrote:
OP even specifies in the last paragraph about your local scene / own experiences.

This is not a direct attack on all players.

Yeah, it's wild, and I think somewhat telling, when people get bent out of shape about this sort of thing being brought up, and deploy the old "not ALL gamers!" chestnut.

OP, there's definitely an issue with it in the hobby still, although I think the recognition of – and pushback against – this is gradually becoming more widespread. It can be hard to know when going into a group what the vibe is likely to be, but I find it's a bit easier to check out in advance than in the past with the increased use of Facebook groups and other avenues of communication that allow you to find like-minded players and sound a place/group out before lugging your models all the way over to.

Anyway, I give this thread a day, tops; some people really don't like it when people bring up the toxic elements of the wargaming community.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
As ever when these things come up, this thread's proving quite handy for knowing who needs to be on the old blocklist.


So much logical fallacy.

Is the hobby making them toxic or were they already toxic people? Did the hobby make them toxic?

I think the answer is already there for you. No need to grandstand with an obvious troll, a little introspection and common sense helps.
   
Made in ca
Commander of the Mysterious 2nd Legion





I don't think racism is partiuclarly active in the 40k community, but at the same time, 40k like any fandom is going to be a slice of the community thus if you have a racist community your local 40k player base will be racist.

So when you have a blovating blowhard making being openly racist seem more socially acceptable, well... that's gonna bring them out of the woodwork

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/17 09:49:20


Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




I'm Irish and while I've not lived there or played there in ten years (not since my uni years), I never came across such blatant nastiness back home. Cheaters? Sure. Toxicity? Sure. What you're describing? Thankfully not.

Here in the UK - same story. I'm sure there's plenty nasties and online brings out the worst on people but I've never heard anyone openly calling for a genocide.

Playing with strangers is never a good idea. 'Leaving politics at the door' doesn't work. Put some spare exp into building your own community and playing with like minded folks. Your hobby will be a healthier place.





This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/07/17 09:54:07


 
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




UK

As said by others, any community is going to vary region to region and joining any social group has the potential that people of that group will not share the same values, ideals and outlook on life as yourself.

Sometimes that's a good thing as they give you new insights; sometimes its a bad thing and you find them bigoted, abusive or otherwise undesirable.


Your experiences are very abnormal for the majority of peoples experience with wargames in general. There's nothing in wargames that makes people more likely to be racist or such. Sure you'll get the odd ork or Imperial army with SS motifs or otherwise made to look like a real world army in some form (they might copy the soviets, the allies, the axis or any one of a million other armed forces the world over). Often its just someone being creative and that's where it ends.



In the end if a social group isn't to your liking you've a few choices

1) Leave and find another group

2) Leave and find another hobby

3) Leave and focus on the personal side of the hobby

4) Adapt, change and learn to fit in with the group.

5) Aim to change the group


Point 5 is pretty much impossible unless you're in a position of authority/respect within the group. Otherwise you either decide that the negative elements aren't so bad and you stay; or you decide that they are and you leave.


This can be a problem with niche hobbies where you might be limited on where you can play and sometimes that might mean you've just got to start your own group where you can set the tone and what is and isn't acceptable

A Blog in Miniature

3D Printing, hobbying and model fun! 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Never heard or saw anything you mentioned. I have played up and down the Eastern Seaboard of the US to include but not limited to NC, SC, Virginia, FL, GA, CT, MA, RI, NH and NY and have never seen or heard anything you mentioned. I've also played a bit in WA. Same.

Maybe your area is just racist as hell

 Tomsug wrote:
Semper krumps under the radar

 
   
Made in us
Agile Revenant Titan




Florida

I've played for over three decades and in numerous states across the US and have not encountered white nationalism.

No earth shattering, thought provoking quote. I'm just someone who was introduced to 40K in the late 80's and it's become a lifelong hobby. 
   
Made in it
Waaagh! Ork Warboss




Italy

I'm not american but in my 20+ years of experience about GW wargaming I've never met racists, sexists or guys that used to rant about politics. Not once.

Those who were unpleasant were just donkey-caves, sociopaths, undfriendly guys and/or TFGs, you know the typical unpleasant nerds.

 
   
Made in nl
Been Around the Block





Come on, yer trolling. It's pretty clear that not 40K but the locals themselves are the problem. Any game played by your locals would have resulted in the mentioned problems as they seem to be the problem and not the game.
   
Made in gb
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain





Earth

so some "white nationalists" played 40k and that makes 40k "white nationalist"

and yeah I read his post and he says its his local meta but given the amount of total BS flowing around these days calling everything and anything (including hard work) white suppremacy while the same people call black people orcs/orks while accusing others of doing it, yeah, X for doubt these people were even white nats or anything he said is true, this seems like a mega troll and very low effort.

disgusting behaviour.

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2021/07/17 12:55:03


 
   
Made in de
Longtime Dakkanaut





@OP:

Your thread title was a bit misleading. Seems to me that this problem could apply to the USA but not necessarily to other countries in which WH 40K is being played.

I have played 40K too since 2nd and never witnessed here in my local scene in Germany any of such outbursts uttered by players whether it be in private, in game stores or in a GW shop. This doesn't mean we are better people in Germany but praising for example the 3rd Reich publicly would be akin to committing social suicide. No one would ever like to hang around with you in the future again, if you behave in such a way. So no one does.

Solution to your problem:
Don't play with strangers but with friends. If all of your former friends live in other cities then you are out of luck. You might then do something else in your spare time.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut






Just a reminder to people to consider that just cos you've not noticed stuff, it doesn't mean it doesn't happen, or that those attitudes aren't there bubbling away under the surface.
   
Made in gb
[DCM]
Lone Wolf Sentinel Pilot





Leicester, UK

Don't let a few dickheads put you off mate, 'cos the vast majority of 40k players definately ain't goose-stepping to that mood music.

You're gonna get gakkers who like the stuff you like an there ain't nothing you can do about it. Reminds me of that Nirvana song, how does it go, 'he's the one, he likes all our pretty songs, he likes to sing along, he likes to shoot his gun, but he don't know what it means'.

My painting and modeling blog:

PaddyMick's Chopshop: Converted 40K Vehicles

 
   
Made in ca
Regular Dakkanaut





The amount of willful blindness in this thread is ridiculous. Obviously warhammer does still have a problem with its fans using its models to celebrate fascist ideology or else the corporation would not have felt compelled to put out a press release condemning fascism in the hobby all but one year ago. Games Workshop is a for profit corporation - they would not have released a statement like that were it not absolutely necessary for some reason as wading into political issues is generally bad for business.

But, OP, things are getting slowly and incrementally better I believe. Wargaming has evolved significantly from its origins in straight white male delusions of power, sex, and violence. There are many more diverse and open minded communities out there than ever before. But don’t be fooled into thinking that this issue is one of the past. It absolutely is not.

What is different now however is that Games Workshop has decided that fans using space marine pretty dolls as icons of their fascist visions is a threat to their business. It remains to be seen how they will continue to counter that “grim dark” history of warhammer. I think the answer will lie in how the imperium is portrayed in the upcoming animation series.
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




UK

 Gregor Samsa wrote:
The amount of willful blindness in this thread is ridiculous. Obviously warhammer does still have a problem with its fans using its models to celebrate fascist ideology or else the corporation would not have felt compelled to put out a press release condemning fascism in the hobby all but one year ago. Games Workshop is a for profit corporation - they would not have released a statement like that were it not absolutely necessary for some reason as wading into political issues is generally bad for business.


That wasn't really in reaction to anything within the hobby, it was in response to a general move against racism being made by multiple organisations at a time when there was high tension regarding racism. GW were not the only firm putting out that kind of missive and in general it wasn't anything new from GW - its the same attitude and standard that they've always had in their stores and organisation. It was just done to show solidary at the time.

A Blog in Miniature

3D Printing, hobbying and model fun! 
   
Made in us
Splattered With Acrylic Paint




this is very true. I’ll be around people for jobs or community work who don’t say gross stuff because it doesn’t come up, and then one day the news gives a smidgeon of coverage to something vaguely liberatory re: anti black or anti immigrant violence, and suddenly they’re making rape jokes and talking about welfare queens.

it’s very normal for everyday people to hold racist views that come out when the order they’re used to is threatened. If it’s a community you have actual social links to you have to get in there and work with them. Find out what their problems in life are, help them get free of their burdens, just a little , just socially. These are the people we have, this is the community we live in. We don’t really have a choice.

What I’m saying is it’s not necessarily the gaming groups around you. It’s the fact that those are the people you happened to be around when there was a smidgeon of resistance and it was time for the nationalists to fly their flag. They had just been comfortable until then.


There are so many people hin the world who are Bruce Willis in The Sixth Sense. No, I’ve never seen a ghost, ghosts don’t exist.



 Strg Alt wrote:
@OP:

I have played 40K too since 2nd and never witnessed here in my local scene in Germany any of such outbursts uttered by players whether it be in private, in game stores or in a GW shop. This doesn't mean we are better people in Germany but praising for example the 3rd Reich publicly would be akin to committing social suicide. No one would ever like to hang around with you in the future again, if you behave in such a way. So no one does.
.


Youre talking about Germany, a country where hundreds of people have been implicated in actively planning mass violence, and they’re centered on an official military commando unit that holds far right concerts with seig heiling, at least one officer fired for being too publicly anti-Semitic, and who mysteriously lost 48,000 rounds of ammunition from their stores. You’re either saying that all the racist sentiments are confined to those conspiracists and there aren’t many times more people who sympathize without getting involved, or you’re denying it just didn’t happen and it’s made up by a cartel in control of the media.

Like, I’ve met racist Germans. You can’t say it’s socially unacceptable.

It’s not at all ameliorating that the government made some arrests and sit down part of the KSK. My country halted lynching because we didn’t like uncontrolled mob violence. Our state just raised the amount of state convictions and executions. They’re fine with it as long as it is official and isn’t a rogue secret militia.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/17 12:17:09


 
   
Made in ie
Battleship Captain





Curvaceous wrote:


There are so many people hin the world who are Bruce Willis in The Sixth Sense. No, I’ve never seen a ghost, ghosts don’t exist.



Theres also a lot of Don Quixote's making charge rolls against windmills also.


 
   
Made in in
[MOD]
Otiose in a Niche






Hyderabad, India

It's shame to hear this. It's been many years since I had a regular gaming group in the U.S. and I really can't speak to what the atmosphere is like today.

Suffice to say around 2016 political events gave a lot of folks a green light to share ideas they otherwise would have kept to themselves and then of course people feed on one another and ideas become more extreme.

40k has always skirted the very edge of good taste with its mashup of parody fascism and real world history that allows players to be inquisitors and witch hunters and oppressors and still be the good guys. (And I say that as someone whose spent a lot of time and money on Inquisition and Adeptus Arbites).

At a time when TSR was running as fast as they could from Demons and Devils, GW decided to be the edgelords of the gaming universe.

So I'm not shocked that folks would see it as a safe space to say things they would not in polite company.

Here on Dakka I've not really seen white nationalism, we tend to stomp down pretty hard on anything political and offensive "after all it's a family wargame".

In my own modding corner I can only remember taking down one series of gallery pics because of coded neo nazi images.

So for what it's worth it may just be that group or that area.

 
   
Made in de
Ork Admiral Kroozin Da Kosmos on Da Hulk






Curvaceous wrote:
Like, I’ve met racist Germans. You can’t say it’s socially unacceptable.

That's so typical American. "I've met like ten people from your country, I now know everything about it"

He is absolutely right in what he said, being racist in Germany is absolutely not as socially accepted as it is in the way it is in the USA, where white people are free to attack black, latino, asian or arabian people in the middle of the day and talk gak to them with dozens of bystanders and then just continue their shopping, having lunch at a restaurant or otherwise go on with their day unhindered, with no risk of any impact on their job or life.
When I lived in the US the people in charge of our area (no clue how you call those kind of institutions) even had the right to veto any contract selling the house to black or latino people, because that would damage the value of all houses there.

That doesn't mean that we don't have racist groups in Germany - but in almost all cases you are shown the door when you are being openly racist in any way. When a far right party is planning protests here, they are usually outnumbered 10:1 by counter-protesters, near large cities like Cologne, Hamburg or Berlin sometimes even 100:1.

And the things you listed are all scandals precisely because they are not socially accepted here - gak always hits the fan when something like this goes public, with people losing their jobs.

Circling back to the topic at hand - I have experienced people act like white supremacists a few time in my years of the hobby, but in all cases, they either were removed from the gaming group or banned by the shop owner/GW manager. I specifically remember this one guy at a GW store who started to rant to a kid (12-14 years) about about how all his eldar are jews and that he would gas them. He was immediately interrupted by the person playing a game next to him telling him to STFU (except the German words used to do that weren't remotely as friendly). He then tried to argue about how he was in the right which eventually led to two people holding back the guy who interrupted him so he wouldn't beat him up while he was shouted out of the store for being a nazi pig.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/07/17 12:54:48


7 Ork facts people always get wrong:
Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other.
A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot.
Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests.
Orks do not think that purple makes them harder to see. They do think that camouflage does however, without knowing why.
Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor.
Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers.
Orks do not have the power of believe. 
   
Made in gb
Killer Klaivex




The dark behind the eyes.

I've been playing for about two decades in many different groups in evil, imperialist Britain. In all that time, I don't recall ever once hearing a single racist slur, nor any discussions of how fascism is best or any such tripe.

Mostly people just swear at their dice or at whoever wrote their codex.


 H.B.M.C. wrote:
And my goodness! The 'R word'. Aiight...


I was trying to work out what that word even was.

I suppose this is a potential issue risk you start abbreviating words so as not to cause offence, it becomes increasingly easy to lose track of what those words actually are.

 blood reaper wrote:
I will respect human rights and trans people but I will never under any circumstances use the phrase 'folks' or 'ya'll'. I would rather be killed by firing squad.



 the_scotsman wrote:
Yeah, when i read the small novel that is the Death Guard unit options and think about resolving the attacks from a melee-oriented min size death guard squad, the thing that springs to mind is "Accessible!"

 Argive wrote:
GW seems to have a crystal ball and just pulls hairbrained ideas out of their backside for the most part.


 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

"Prepare to open fire at that towering Wraithknight!"
"ARE YOU DAFT MAN!?! YOU MIGHT HIT THE MEN WHO COME UP TO ITS ANKLES!!!"


Akiasura wrote:
I hate to sound like a serial killer, but I'll be reaching for my friend occam's razor yet again.


 insaniak wrote:

You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.

Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet.
 
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut



Tallarook, Victoria, Australia

 Nazrak wrote:
Just a reminder to people to consider that just cos you've not noticed stuff, it doesn't mean it doesn't happen, or that those attitudes aren't there bubbling away under the surface.


And it happens because of racist people. Not racist hobby.

Racist people breathe. So I guess breathing is racist because racist people do it. I better not breathe


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Gregor Samsa wrote:
The amount of willful blindness in this thread is ridiculous. Obviously warhammer does still have a problem with its fans using its models to celebrate fascist ideology or else the corporation would not have felt compelled to put out a press release condemning fascism in the hobby all but one year ago. Games Workshop is a for profit corporation - they would not have released a statement like that were it not absolutely necessary for some reason as wading into political issues is generally bad for business.

But, OP, things are getting slowly and incrementally better I believe. Wargaming has evolved significantly from its origins in straight white male delusions of power, sex, and violence. There are many more diverse and open minded communities out there than ever before. But don’t be fooled into thinking that this issue is one of the past. It absolutely is not.

What is different now however is that Games Workshop has decided that fans using space marine pretty dolls as icons of their fascist visions is a threat to their business. It remains to be seen how they will continue to counter that “grim dark” history of warhammer. I think the answer will lie in how the imperium is portrayed in the upcoming animation series.


That's an amazingly the most fascist and racist non self-aware diatribe I've ever read about wargaming. Astounding level of garbage right there.

The setting is satirical, but some people are just too dim and simple to understand fictional universes.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/07/17 13:38:23


 
   
Made in us
Splattered With Acrylic Paint




 Jidmah wrote:
[That doesn't mean that we don't have racist groups in Germany - but in almost all cases you are shown the door when you are being openly racist in any way. When a far right party is planning protests here, they are usually outnumbered 10:1 by counter-protesters, near large cities like Cologne, Hamburg or Berlin sometimes even 100:1.

And the things you listed are all scandals precisely because they are not socially accepted here - gak always hits the fan when something like this goes public, with people losing their jobs.

Circling back to the topic at hand - I have experienced people act like white supremacists a few time in my years of the hobby, but in all cases, they either were removed from the gaming group or banned by the shop owner/GW manager. I specifically remember this one guy at a GW store who started to rant to a kid (12-14 years) about about how all his eldar are jews and that he would gas them. He was immediately interrupted by the person playing a game next to him telling him to STFU


Yes it is embarrassing when the racism is out in the open and rogue. They say it too loudly or in the wrong way, so you have make them quiet. The Interior Minister can say loudly that this massive widespread infestation of right wing activity in the military is the greatest threat to Germany. Meanwhile the same man, Horst seehofer, says there is no place for Islam in Germany. You are embarrassed when it’s too loud, you want to say it’s not racism, it’s science or democracy. And the protestors you claim include the insanity of “anti-Deutsch.”

Yes it’s very American to say these things because we invented the original Nuremberg laws and the concentration camps. We also invented not likening racism when it’s too loud and not state sanctioned, but being fine with it when it speaks politely, votes,, has an army and a navy, and we can trade with it.

You act like that massive armed conspiracy came out of nowhere. It came out of the same schools and jobs as your gaming group does.
   
Made in in
[MOD]
Otiose in a Niche






Hyderabad, India

 vipoid wrote:



 H.B.M.C. wrote:
And my goodness! The 'R word'. Aiight...


I was trying to work out what that word even was.


Took me a second, it's a slang term for Mental Retardation, there's been an effort to deem it as offensive as the N word.

I am not a fan of mistaking words for attitudes and thinking that banning words helps to change attitudes, but here we are and we have to live in society.

 
   
Made in au
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Overread wrote:
 Gregor Samsa wrote:
The amount of willful blindness in this thread is ridiculous. Obviously warhammer does still have a problem with its fans using its models to celebrate fascist ideology or else the corporation would not have felt compelled to put out a press release condemning fascism in the hobby all but one year ago. Games Workshop is a for profit corporation - they would not have released a statement like that were it not absolutely necessary for some reason as wading into political issues is generally bad for business.


That wasn't really in reaction to anything within the hobby, it was in response to a general move against racism being made by multiple organisations at a time when there was high tension regarding racism. GW were not the only firm putting out that kind of missive and in general it wasn't anything new from GW - its the same attitude and standard that they've always had in their stores and organisation. It was just done to show solidary at the time.


Wasn’t it around when there was a bit of a thing for some you tube channels for the book cover with the black ultramarine on the cover as well? It was big enough on YouTube for it to pop up in the you liked this warhammer video you must like this video.
I may be getting my timeline mixed up, but some of those vids where getting moderate to decent views considering.
Didn’t want to give them a view considering who they where >.<
   
Made in nl
[MOD]
Decrepit Dakkanaut






Cozy cockpit of an Imperial Knight

I am going to lock this topic now, as we're very much on a collision course towards politics.



Fatum Iustum Stultorum

 
   
 
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