Switch Theme:

Death Guard Helbrute with two fists, how many attacks?  [RSS] Share on facebook Share on Twitter Submit to Reddit
»
Author Message
Advert


Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
  • No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
  • Times and dates in your local timezone.
  • Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
  • Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
  • Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.




Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




Indeed, there are two fists, not a single weapon

Leo - reread and note that it does, indeed, say yiu get another attack with this weapon. Singular. There are two weapons. Each weapon, singular, is a helbrute fist. Each weapon, singular, has a rule stating that having two of these weapons - which the model definitely has - gives you another attack with this weapon, singular.

Weapon A - I make an attack with this weapon. It has a rule stating I get to make another attack with this weapon, but on,y once each time the model fights. So I get another attack

Weapon B - I make an attack with this helbrute fist, as I am fully entitled to do. I am still fighting, but THIS weapon - which is not the same as weapon A, by definition (it's trite) - also has a rule saying, each time I fight , I get to make an additional attack with this weapon. So I get to make an additional attack

This is unarguable RAW. Possibly not intended, but RAW it works.

Your argument relies on deciding that "two helbrute fists" is some kind of "lsingle system" meaning yiu can't select each weapon individually but that is flat out wring. Unarguably so.
   
Made in de
Prescient Cryptek of Eternity






Germany

JakeSiren wrote:
If a Space Marine had two chain swords equipped nobody would be arguing against them getting 2 additional attacks - 1 for each chain sword. Chainsword Rule: "Each time the bearer fights, it makes 1 additional attack with this weapon"
Seems like the Helbrute fist is the same, just with a condition on when you get the bonus attack.


Thats because the chainsword rule is worded differently. It doesnt say if you have two chainswords you make 1 additional attack with this weapon. The helbrute gets one additional attack when he has two fists, no more, no less.
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




 p5freak wrote:
JakeSiren wrote:
If a Space Marine had two chain swords equipped nobody would be arguing against them getting 2 additional attacks - 1 for each chain sword. Chainsword Rule: "Each time the bearer fights, it makes 1 additional attack with this weapon"
Seems like the Helbrute fist is the same, just with a condition on when you get the bonus attack.


Thats because the chainsword rule is worded differently. It doesnt say if you have two chainswords you make 1 additional attack with this weapon. The helbrute gets one additional attack when he has two fists, no more, no less.

Which isn't how the rule is worded, as you know - it's been quoted often enough in this thread

Every time it fights, if it has two fists, it makes one extra attack with THIS weapon
I then attack with the second fist, as I'm perfectly entitled to do, and get to make an extra attack with THIS weapon.

You aren't even arguing based on the rules, just what you've made up and are presenting as fact.
   
Made in gb
Brain-Dead Zombie of Nurgle





 p5freak wrote:
JakeSiren wrote:
If a Space Marine had two chain swords equipped nobody would be arguing against them getting 2 additional attacks - 1 for each chain sword. Chainsword Rule: "Each time the bearer fights, it makes 1 additional attack with this weapon"
Seems like the Helbrute fist is the same, just with a condition on when you get the bonus attack.


Thats because the chainsword rule is worded differently. It doesnt say if you have two chainswords you make 1 additional attack with this weapon. The helbrute gets one additional attack when he has two fists, no more, no less.


But the rule is still written as "<condition>, <effect>"

For the chainsword the condition is simple "Each time the bearer fights", you check the condition for each of the two chain swords a model might be equipped with, it's true for both, so the effect happens, which gives you two extra attacks.

The Helbrute fist condition is more complex, "Each time the bearer fights, if it is equipped with 2 Helbrute fists". But in the same way that you'd evaluate if for the left and right chainsword you evaluate it for the left and right Helbrute fist. As with the chainsword it'll be "true" for both, so the effect will fire for the left fist and also for the right fist.

I'm all over the place on this one.

   
Made in de
Prescient Cryptek of Eternity






Germany

Each time you fight with the helbrute you check if he is equipped with two fists, if yes, he gets +1 attack. No more, no less.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




 p5freak wrote:
Each time you fight with the helbrute you check if he is equipped with two fists, if yes, he gets +1 attack. No more, no less.


Are you saying the rules quote in the OP is wrong? That says you get an extra attack "with this weapon", so it would apply to each of the 2 fists, giving overall +2 attacks. There doesn't seem to be anything preventing you applying the special rule of each of the fists every time the unit fights.
   
Made in de
Prescient Cryptek of Eternity






Germany

The rules quote is correct. Lets see what the power scourge says.

Power scourge
Each time the bearer fights, it makes 3 additional attacks with this weapon.


Its worded just like the chainsword. You get 6 additional attacks, when you have two power scourges and attack with both. Why does the power fist say if it is equipped with the 2 helbrute fists ? Its from the same author, so the meaning must be different, otherwise it would be worded like the power scourge.

Each time the bearer fights, if it is equipped with 2 Helbrute fists, it makes 1 additional attack with this weapon.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




 p5freak wrote:
The rules quote is correct. Lets see what the power scourge says.

Power scourge
Each time the bearer fights, it makes 3 additional attacks with this weapon.


Its worded just like the chainsword. You get 6 additional attacks, when you have two power scourges and attack with both. Why does the power fist say if it is equipped with the 2 helbrute fists ? Its from the same author, so the meaning must be different, otherwise it would be worded like the power scourge.

Each time the bearer fights, if it is equipped with 2 Helbrute fists, it makes 1 additional attack with this weapon.


I disagree with the bolded part. The meaning is what the rule says. Even if it's not what the author meant (which we can't say for sure here), the RAW works and makes sense. We have two weapons with a special rule. We can apply each of those special rules for each weapon for a total of +2 attacks.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/26 14:41:13


 
   
Made in gb
Brain-Dead Zombie of Nurgle





 p5freak wrote:
The rules quote is correct. Lets see what the power scourge says.

Power scourge
Each time the bearer fights, it makes 3 additional attacks with this weapon.


Its worded just like the chainsword. You get 6 additional attacks, when you have two power scourges and attack with both. Why does the power fist say if it is equipped with the 2 helbrute fists ? Its from the same author, so the meaning must be different, otherwise it would be worded like the power scourge.

Each time the bearer fights, if it is equipped with 2 Helbrute fists, it makes 1 additional attack with this weapon.


Guessing at intentions is difficult, but if the author didn't want one a one fisted Helbrute to get any extra attacks and wanted to give one with two fists two extra then that's how I'd write it.

   
Made in us
Deathwing Terminator with Assault Cannon





It clearly states 'each time it fights' and not 'each time it makes an attack.'

Each time the helbrute is selected as an eligible unit to fight with, if it has two PFs equipped, then add 1 to A for that instance of fighting. Then, you allocate [base A] + 1 attacks however you wish.

It's not ambiguous.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/07/26 14:53:57


 
   
Made in us
Lieutenant General





Florence, KY

 p5freak wrote:
The rules quote is correct. Lets see what the power scourge says.

Power scourge
Each time the bearer fights, it makes 3 additional attacks with this weapon.


Its worded just like the chainsword. You get 6 additional attacks, when you have two power scourges and attack with both. Why does the power fist say if it is equipped with the 2 helbrute fists ? Its from the same author, so the meaning must be different, otherwise it would be worded like the power scourge.

Each time the bearer fights, if it is equipped with 2 Helbrute fists, it makes 1 additional attack with this weapon.

The difference iis right there in the rule:

Each time the bearer fights, if it is armed with 2 Helbrute fists, it makes 1 additional attack with this weapon.

A power scourge can make it's additional attacks even if the Helbrute only has a single power scourge. For a Helbrute fist to make it's additional attack the Helbrute must have TWO fists. If it does have two fists, then each fist grants an additional attack.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/26 15:03:09


'It is a source of constant consternation that my opponents
cannot correlate their innate inferiority with their inevitable
defeat. It would seem that stupidity is as eternal as war.'

- Nemesor Zahndrekh of the Sautekh Dynasty
Overlord of the Crownworld of Gidrim
 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




 skchsan wrote:
It clearly states 'each time it fights' and not 'each time it makes an attack.'

Each time the helbrute is selected as an eligible unit to fight with, if it has two PFs equipped, then add 1 to A for that instance of fighting. Then, you allowcate [base A] + 1 attacks however you wish.

It's not ambiguous.


That's not what it says. Each of the fists has a special rule giving +1A if it has two fists. The result is you can apply the rule of each weapon when the Helbrute fights, giving you +2A total. What reason do you have for not applying the +1A from each fist when the Helbrute attacks?
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




 p5freak wrote:
The rules quote is correct. Lets see what the power scourge says.

Power scourge
Each time the bearer fights, it makes 3 additional attacks with this weapon.


Its worded just like the chainsword. You get 6 additional attacks, when you have two power scourges and attack with both. Why does the power fist say if it is equipped with the 2 helbrute fists ? Its from the same author, so the meaning must be different, otherwise it would be worded like the power scourge.

Each time the bearer fights, if it is equipped with 2 Helbrute fists, it makes 1 additional attack with this weapon.

Ah so you're guessing now?
The wording is different because you only get to make additional attacks when you have two fists. If you only have one, yiu get no bonus. This is different to the scourge which always gets three extra per scourge, even if you only have one

You Kay only fight once, but you cannot say the rule only procs once. It absolutely procs once for each fist. That's unarguable.
   
Made in de
Prescient Cryptek of Eternity






Germany

nosferatu1001 wrote:

Ah so you're guessing now?


Of course i am. And you too. Because no one, except the author, knows how its meant.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

You Kay only fight once, but you cannot say the rule only procs once. It absolutely procs once for each fist. That's unarguable.


You are wrong. We are arguing about it.
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




We're arguing because you're ignoring what's written and making up your own version of the rules.

Not for any reason of ambiguity.

Two different fists, each rule processes once for each fist, exactly the same as for a power scourge or chain sword - except for the condition that it needs two fists before you get any extra attacks

I'm not arguing intent, just stating what the rules actually state. You're the one attempting to claim intent, or that it's "one weapon system" or other such made up rubbish.
   
Made in de
Prescient Cryptek of Eternity






Germany

nosferatu1001 wrote:
We're arguing because you're ignoring what's written and making up your own version of the rules.

Not for any reason of ambiguity.


No, you ignore whats written. If a rule is written differently from the same author, it must mean something different, otherwise it wouldnt be written differently.
   
Made in us
Deathwing Terminator with Assault Cannon





Slipspace wrote:
 skchsan wrote:
It clearly states 'each time it fights' and not 'each time it makes an attack.'

Each time the helbrute is selected as an eligible unit to fight with, if it has two PFs equipped, then add 1 to A for that instance of fighting. Then, you allowcate [base A] + 1 attacks however you wish.

It's not ambiguous.


That's not what it says. Each of the fists has a special rule giving +1A if it has two fists. The result is you can apply the rule of each weapon when the Helbrute fights, giving you +2A total. What reason do you have for not applying the +1A from each fist when the Helbrute attacks?
I noticed that I did indeed make a blunder. Despite, what you're claiming is not supported by the text.

The rules state "Each time the bearer fights, if it is equipped with 2 Helbrute fists, it makes 1 additional attack with this weapon." Do note, it does not state "each time the bearer make an attack with helbrute fist". Given, there is no other precedents or rules resolution that would otherwise give you the room to interpret the text the way you do; Helbrute fist's extra attack works just like any other "make additional attack using this weapon" like freki and geki, TWC's claws and teeth, and chainswords.

When a helbrute attacks, if it has two helbrute fists equipped, then you make 1 additional attack using the weapon's profile.

You don't claim the bonus attack "each time" helbrute makes an attack.

FWIW, it seems like edition lag as the rules for helbrute in CSM codex simply states "if its equipped with two melee weapons, then add 1 to A"

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2021/07/26 16:20:29


 
   
Made in us
Confessor Of Sins




Tacoma, WA, USA

 skchsan wrote:
Slipspace wrote:
 skchsan wrote:
It clearly states 'each time it fights' and not 'each time it makes an attack.'

Each time the helbrute is selected as an eligible unit to fight with, if it has two PFs equipped, then add 1 to A for that instance of fighting. Then, you allowcate [base A] + 1 attacks however you wish.

It's not ambiguous.


That's not what it says. Each of the fists has a special rule giving +1A if it has two fists. The result is you can apply the rule of each weapon when the Helbrute fights, giving you +2A total. What reason do you have for not applying the +1A from each fist when the Helbrute attacks?
I noticed that I did indeed make a blunder. Despite, what you're claiming is not supported by the text.

The rules state "Each time the bearer fights, if it is equipped with 2 Helbrute fists, it makes 1 additional attack with this weapon." Do note, it does not state "each time the bearer make an attack with helbrute fist". Given, there is no other precedents or rules resolution that would otherwise give you the room to interpret the text the way you do. Helbrute fist's extra attack works just like any other "make additional attack using this weapon" like freki and geki and chainswords.

When a helbrute attacks, if it has two helbrute fists equipped, then you make 1 additional attack using the weapon's profile.
Twice, because it is armed with 2 Helbrute Fist. It has to be armed with 2 fist to activate the rule, but it is activated on both fist
   
Made in us
Deathwing Terminator with Assault Cannon





 alextroy wrote:
 skchsan wrote:
Slipspace wrote:
 skchsan wrote:
It clearly states 'each time it fights' and not 'each time it makes an attack.'

Each time the helbrute is selected as an eligible unit to fight with, if it has two PFs equipped, then add 1 to A for that instance of fighting. Then, you allowcate [base A] + 1 attacks however you wish.

It's not ambiguous.


That's not what it says. Each of the fists has a special rule giving +1A if it has two fists. The result is you can apply the rule of each weapon when the Helbrute fights, giving you +2A total. What reason do you have for not applying the +1A from each fist when the Helbrute attacks?
I noticed that I did indeed make a blunder. Despite, what you're claiming is not supported by the text.

The rules state "Each time the bearer fights, if it is equipped with 2 Helbrute fists, it makes 1 additional attack with this weapon." Do note, it does not state "each time the bearer make an attack with helbrute fist". Given, there is no other precedents or rules resolution that would otherwise give you the room to interpret the text the way you do. Helbrute fist's extra attack works just like any other "make additional attack using this weapon" like freki and geki and chainswords.

When a helbrute attacks, if it has two helbrute fists equipped, then you make 1 additional attack using the weapon's profile.
Twice, because it is armed with 2 Helbrute Fist. It has to be armed with 2 fist to activate the rule, but it is activated on both fist
So then, if you take two helbrute fists, then do you have two entries of helbrute fists on your wargear?

I mean, I do see where your argument is coming from, but the RAW isn't written ambiguously enough to claim that this is a RAW loophole.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/26 16:28:02


 
   
Made in us
Lieutenant General





Florence, KY

 skchsan wrote:
Spoiler:
 alextroy wrote:
 skchsan wrote:
Slipspace wrote:
 skchsan wrote:
It clearly states 'each time it fights' and not 'each time it makes an attack.'

Each time the helbrute is selected as an eligible unit to fight with, if it has two PFs equipped, then add 1 to A for that instance of fighting. Then, you allowcate [base A] + 1 attacks however you wish.

It's not ambiguous.


That's not what it says. Each of the fists has a special rule giving +1A if it has two fists. The result is you can apply the rule of each weapon when the Helbrute fights, giving you +2A total. What reason do you have for not applying the +1A from each fist when the Helbrute attacks?
I noticed that I did indeed make a blunder. Despite, what you're claiming is not supported by the text.

The rules state "Each time the bearer fights, if it is equipped with 2 Helbrute fists, it makes 1 additional attack with this weapon." Do note, it does not state "each time the bearer make an attack with helbrute fist". Given, there is no other precedents or rules resolution that would otherwise give you the room to interpret the text the way you do. Helbrute fist's extra attack works just like any other "make additional attack using this weapon" like freki and geki and chainswords.

When a helbrute attacks, if it has two helbrute fists equipped, then you make 1 additional attack using the weapon's profile.
Twice, because it is armed with 2 Helbrute Fist. It has to be armed with 2 fist to activate the rule, but it is activated on both fist

So then, if you take two helbrute fists, then do you have two entries of helbrute fists on your wargear?

Yes. The Helbrute comes with a multi-melta and a Helbrute fist (singular), with the option to replace the multi-melta with a Helbrute fist. Then the options go on to say 'for each Helbrute fist this model is equipped with' it can be equipped with a combi-bolter, heavy flamer, etc.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/26 16:32:43


'It is a source of constant consternation that my opponents
cannot correlate their innate inferiority with their inevitable
defeat. It would seem that stupidity is as eternal as war.'

- Nemesor Zahndrekh of the Sautekh Dynasty
Overlord of the Crownworld of Gidrim
 
   
Made in us
Deathwing Terminator with Assault Cannon





 Ghaz wrote:
 skchsan wrote:
Spoiler:
 alextroy wrote:
 skchsan wrote:
Slipspace wrote:
 skchsan wrote:
It clearly states 'each time it fights' and not 'each time it makes an attack.'

Each time the helbrute is selected as an eligible unit to fight with, if it has two PFs equipped, then add 1 to A for that instance of fighting. Then, you allowcate [base A] + 1 attacks however you wish.

It's not ambiguous.


That's not what it says. Each of the fists has a special rule giving +1A if it has two fists. The result is you can apply the rule of each weapon when the Helbrute fights, giving you +2A total. What reason do you have for not applying the +1A from each fist when the Helbrute attacks?
I noticed that I did indeed make a blunder. Despite, what you're claiming is not supported by the text.

The rules state "Each time the bearer fights, if it is equipped with 2 Helbrute fists, it makes 1 additional attack with this weapon." Do note, it does not state "each time the bearer make an attack with helbrute fist". Given, there is no other precedents or rules resolution that would otherwise give you the room to interpret the text the way you do. Helbrute fist's extra attack works just like any other "make additional attack using this weapon" like freki and geki and chainswords.

When a helbrute attacks, if it has two helbrute fists equipped, then you make 1 additional attack using the weapon's profile.
Twice, because it is armed with 2 Helbrute Fist. It has to be armed with 2 fist to activate the rule, but it is activated on both fist

So then, if you take two helbrute fists, then do you have two entries of helbrute fists on your wargear?

Yes. The Helbrute comes with a multi-melta and a Helbrute fist (singular), with the option to replace the multi-melta with a Helbrute fist. Then the options go on to say 'for each Helbrute fist this model is equipped with' it can be equipped with a combi-bolter, heavy flamer, etc.
But do you physically alter the wargear it's equipped with two separate & distinct entries for helbrtue fist - i.e. helbrute fist 1 & helbrute fist 2, or is it simply two (2) helbrute fists? In other words, when you fight with said helbrute, do you claim "the helbrute will attack with his left fist first, and then with his right fist", or does it simply "fight with its helbrute fists"?

If it indeed is the former (where the two are clearly distinguished as separate wargear), then your argument holds, but there are 0 precedents where you consider two weapons of the same name as two separate and distinct wargear (i.e. scything talons), so I think that argument hold very little water.

It may not go as far as p5freak's argument where he claims "if you take multiple same-name weapons, they become a weapon system", but there's nothing in the rules that tells you to treat the two same-name weapons as if they are two distinct wargear whose's abilities are triggered once per weapon.

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2021/07/26 16:53:35


 
   
Made in gb
Brain-Dead Zombie of Nurgle





Astartes Chainsword,"Each time the bearer fights, it makes 1 additional attack with this weapon". When carrying two this ability processes for each of them and grants two extra attacks.

Malefic talons, "Each time the bearer fights, it makes 1 additional attack with this weapon." When equipped with two sets this ability processes for each of them and grants two extra attacks.

Helbrute fist, "Each time the bearer fights, if it is equipped with 2 Helbrute fists, it makes 1 additional attack with this weapon." When equipped with two why would the ability not process for each of them and grant 2 extra attacks?

Both talons and chainswords seem to demonstrate that "it makes 1 additional attack with this weapon" can fire twice and generate 2 extra attacks in total when there are two of "this weapon" being caries.

Allowing two extra attacks from a dual fisted Helbrute seems consistent, I can't argue if it's "RAI", but to me it logically matches up with talons and chain swords.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/26 16:53:40


   
Made in us
Deathwing Terminator with Assault Cannon





 PlagueGardener wrote:
Astartes Chainsword,"Each time the bearer fights, it makes 1 additional attack with this weapon". When carrying two this ability processes for each of them and grants two extra attacks.

Malefic talons, "Each time the bearer fights, it makes 1 additional attack with this weapon." When equipped with two sets this ability processes for each of them and grants two extra attacks.

Helbrute fist, "Each time the bearer fights, if it is equipped with 2 Helbrute fists, it makes 1 additional attack with this weapon." When equipped with two why would the ability not process for each of them and grant 2 extra attacks?

Both talons and chainswords seem to demonstrate that "it makes 1 additional attack with this weapon" can fire twice and generate 2 extra attacks in total when there are two of "this weapon" being caries.

Allowing two extra attacks from a dual fisted Helbrute seems consistent, I can't argue if it's "RAI", but to me it logically matches up with talons and chain swords.
It's not logically consistent because its an apples to oranges comparison.

There is no logical link to consider the precedents set forth by weapon triggering additional attack to also apply to 'paired' weapons triggering additional attack. There are weapons that check whether the weapon is equipped, only, and there are weapons that check whether the weapon is equipped more than once.

Take for example of a weapon that is more accurately analogous: scything talon - You can re-roll hit rolls of 1 for this weapon. If the bearer has more than one pair of monstrous scything talons, it can make 1 additional attack with this weapon each time it fights.

So does that mean a carnifex equipped with two pairs of scything talons get +2 attacks?

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/07/26 17:04:59


 
   
Made in us
Confessor Of Sins




Tacoma, WA, USA

 skchsan wrote:
 alextroy wrote:
 skchsan wrote:
Slipspace wrote:
 skchsan wrote:
It clearly states 'each time it fights' and not 'each time it makes an attack.'

Each time the helbrute is selected as an eligible unit to fight with, if it has two PFs equipped, then add 1 to A for that instance of fighting. Then, you allowcate [base A] + 1 attacks however you wish.

It's not ambiguous.


That's not what it says. Each of the fists has a special rule giving +1A if it has two fists. The result is you can apply the rule of each weapon when the Helbrute fights, giving you +2A total. What reason do you have for not applying the +1A from each fist when the Helbrute attacks?
I noticed that I did indeed make a blunder. Despite, what you're claiming is not supported by the text.

The rules state "Each time the bearer fights, if it is equipped with 2 Helbrute fists, it makes 1 additional attack with this weapon." Do note, it does not state "each time the bearer make an attack with helbrute fist". Given, there is no other precedents or rules resolution that would otherwise give you the room to interpret the text the way you do. Helbrute fist's extra attack works just like any other "make additional attack using this weapon" like freki and geki and chainswords.

When a helbrute attacks, if it has two helbrute fists equipped, then you make 1 additional attack using the weapon's profile.
Twice, because it is armed with 2 Helbrute Fist. It has to be armed with 2 fist to activate the rule, but it is activated on both fist
So then, if you take two helbrute fists, then do you have two entries of helbrute fists on your wargear?

I mean, I do see where your argument is coming from, but the RAW isn't written ambiguously enough to claim that this is a RAW loophole.
Are you arguing that a model armed with two of a weapon doesn’t benefit from both of them? I’m sure a lot of vehicles are being misplayed when shooting if that is the case.

Rules wise, it doesn’t matter if a model is armed with 2 Helbrute Fist or Helbrute Fist and Helbrute Fist. It only matters that it isn’t armed with Twin Helbrute Fist.
   
Made in us
Deathwing Terminator with Assault Cannon





 alextroy wrote:
 skchsan wrote:
 alextroy wrote:
 skchsan wrote:
Slipspace wrote:
 skchsan wrote:
It clearly states 'each time it fights' and not 'each time it makes an attack.'

Each time the helbrute is selected as an eligible unit to fight with, if it has two PFs equipped, then add 1 to A for that instance of fighting. Then, you allowcate [base A] + 1 attacks however you wish.

It's not ambiguous.


That's not what it says. Each of the fists has a special rule giving +1A if it has two fists. The result is you can apply the rule of each weapon when the Helbrute fights, giving you +2A total. What reason do you have for not applying the +1A from each fist when the Helbrute attacks?
I noticed that I did indeed make a blunder. Despite, what you're claiming is not supported by the text.

The rules state "Each time the bearer fights, if it is equipped with 2 Helbrute fists, it makes 1 additional attack with this weapon." Do note, it does not state "each time the bearer make an attack with helbrute fist". Given, there is no other precedents or rules resolution that would otherwise give you the room to interpret the text the way you do. Helbrute fist's extra attack works just like any other "make additional attack using this weapon" like freki and geki and chainswords.

When a helbrute attacks, if it has two helbrute fists equipped, then you make 1 additional attack using the weapon's profile.
Twice, because it is armed with 2 Helbrute Fist. It has to be armed with 2 fist to activate the rule, but it is activated on both fist
So then, if you take two helbrute fists, then do you have two entries of helbrute fists on your wargear?

I mean, I do see where your argument is coming from, but the RAW isn't written ambiguously enough to claim that this is a RAW loophole.
Are you arguing that a model armed with two of a weapon doesn’t benefit from both of them? I’m sure a lot of vehicles are being misplayed when shooting if that is the case.

Rules wise, it doesn’t matter if a model is armed with 2 Helbrute Fist or Helbrute Fist and Helbrute Fist. It only matters that it isn’t armed with Twin Helbrute Fist.
This too is an apples to oranges comparison as rules for determining the number of attacks works differently from shooting to fighting.

This argument would only hold if and only if number of shooting attacks is something that's governed by the unit's characteristics.

The rules for helbrute fist checks for whether the model was equipped with the fists twice (specifically). What it does not check for is whether there are two distinct entries of 'helbrute fist' wargear on it's datasheet (because that's literally not a thing).

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/07/26 17:08:08


 
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




 p5freak wrote:
nosferatu1001 wrote:
We're arguing because you're ignoring what's written and making up your own version of the rules.

Not for any reason of ambiguity.


No, you ignore whats written. If a rule is written differently from the same author, it must mean something different, otherwise it wouldnt be written differently.

I've ignored nothing

Yet again, you've cut the bit where I explained what the additional text functionally does. That you've deliberately omitted means you're not arguing in good faith, yet again

Your "contribution" to this thread is over at that point.

Skschan - erm. , write out a full war gear list for a double fist helbrute. If you do it PROPERLY you will write

Helbrute fist
Helbrute fist

I then choose the "left" fist to make one attack with, which triggers the rule as the helbrute indeed has two fists.
I then choose the "right " fist to make one attack with, which....

Your argument ignores that this literally already occurs.

Tyrsnidd are a terrible counter for you to make , as there they have two distinct weapons, one for a single and one for a "double ", which is NOT THE CSSE HERE.
there is no "twin helbrute fist" item of war gear , unlike for nids
   
Made in us
Deathwing Terminator with Assault Cannon





nosferatu1001 wrote:
 p5freak wrote:
nosferatu1001 wrote:
We're arguing because you're ignoring what's written and making up your own version of the rules.

Not for any reason of ambiguity.


No, you ignore whats written. If a rule is written differently from the same author, it must mean something different, otherwise it wouldnt be written differently.

I've ignored nothing

Yet again, you've cut the bit where I explained what the additional text functionally does. That you've deliberately omitted means you're not arguing in good faith, yet again

Your "contribution" to this thread is over at that point.

Skschan - erm. , write out a full war gear list for a double fist helbrute. If you do it PROPERLY you will write

Helbrute fist
Helbrute fist

I then choose the "left" fist to make one attack with, which triggers the rule as the helbrute indeed has two fists.
I then choose the "right " fist to make one attack with, which....

Your argument ignores that this literally already occurs.

Tyrsnidd are a terrible counter for you to make , as there they have two distinct weapons, one for a single and one for a "double ", which is NOT THE CSSE HERE.
there is no "twin helbrute fist" item of war gear , unlike for nids
Functionally,
"pair of scything talon" = "helbrute fist"
Two (2) "pair(s) of scything talon" = Two (2) "helbrute fist"

On your datasheet, where the rules for each weapon is listed, there is a single entry for 'helbrute fist'. By taking additional 'helbrute fist', you're not adding another entry of 'helbrute fist' under the 'weapons' section.

You are mistaking the common nomenclature for listing what equipment a unit has via battlescribe where it enters multiple weapons, i.e. "helbrute fist, helbrute fist" as a short hand as to mean that there are multiple entries for 'helbrute fist'. This is simply to show you how many times that particular weapon was taken by the unit, it does not, add another line in the 'weapons' section.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/07/26 17:32:19


 
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




Yes I am. Each weapon has a full entry, with s, ap, damage and the associated rules on it.

Again. I choose the left fist. This is a distinct item of war gear, and so I choose it.

Show I cannot do that.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/26 17:35:47


 
   
Made in us
Lieutenant General





Florence, KY

From page 78 of Codex Death Guard:

For each Helbrute fist this model is equipped with, it can be equipped with 1 of the following: 1 combi-bolter; 1 heavy flamer. That Helbrute fist cannot then be replaced.

By that wording, a Helbrute that replaces it's multi-melta with a Helbrute fist does most assuredly does gain two additional attacks as it has two 'Helbrute fist'.

'It is a source of constant consternation that my opponents
cannot correlate their innate inferiority with their inevitable
defeat. It would seem that stupidity is as eternal as war.'

- Nemesor Zahndrekh of the Sautekh Dynasty
Overlord of the Crownworld of Gidrim
 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




 skchsan wrote:
But do you physically alter the wargear it's equipped with two separate & distinct entries for helbrtue fist - i.e. helbrute fist 1 & helbrute fist 2, or is it simply two (2) helbrute fists? In other words, when you fight with said helbrute, do you claim "the helbrute will attack with his left fist first, and then with his right fist", or does it simply "fight with its helbrute fists"?

If it indeed is the former (where the two are clearly distinguished as separate wargear), then your argument holds, but there are 0 precedents where you consider two weapons of the same name as two separate and distinct wargear (i.e. scything talons), so I think that argument hold very little water.

It may not go as far as p5freak's argument where he claims "if you take multiple same-name weapons, they become a weapon system", but there's nothing in the rules that tells you to treat the two same-name weapons as if they are two distinct wargear whose's abilities are triggered once per weapon.


It is two separate weapons. That's been made clear by various people already. As far as precedent goes, we have chainswords and lightning claws as examples of applying a weapon's bonus for each one you have. I find the idea that a Helbrute equipped with 2 Helbrute Fists only has 1 weapon frankly absurd. Having duplicate weapons does not mean you only have 1 of that weapon in any case I can think of.
   
 
Forum Index » 40K You Make Da Call
Go to: