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Made in de
Sneaky Sniper Drone



Germany

I'm curious, what gw is going to do with the "jet pack" / "battle suit" stuff... there's so much room to gove them unique abilities and enhance their playstyle.

I fear, that reality is going to hurt, though...
   
Made in ie
Ruthless Rafkin





Quasistellar wrote:
There’s the concept or “rage meters” and such with some video games, where a character does a certain action to raise the meter, and when it’s full they transform their play style.

I’m wondering if something like this can be done for a whole faction. I wouldn’t want to make it too tracking heavy though.

I’m really unsure how to do it TBH. I was thinking maybe a faction based off of small weak squads (think gants or guardsmen). Every time a unit dies, some progress towards a different army wide bonus is made.

Like, let’s say they start out with a shooting bonus like maybe expert crafters or something. Once they lose enough units they become enraged and get a fighting bonus like blood angels (while losing the shooting bonus)

I wouldn’t base it off of something the enemy could too easily prevent though. I did like the idea of throwing waves of chaff at the enemy and becoming “stronger” for it. Maybe only dying in combat raises the counter?

Then once you kill a certain amount of units in combat the bonus goes back to shooting?

IKD it’s just an idea—probably one of the harder to balance properly.


Greenskins, Dark Elves and Tomb Kings all have a mechanic similar to this in Total War: Warhammer. Greenskins fill a bar to trigger a WAAAAGH as they fight, Dark Elves and Tomb Kings fill as they die. Dark Elves get melee buffs when its full and Tomb Kings get tiered bonuses to various thing and can summon an Ushabti unit when its full.


 
   
Made in ca
Legendary Master of the Chapter





I think one thing is people tend to be looking individually, but an army is more then just one thing, Guard, just for example, can be summed up as as cheap hoard infantry combined with solid heavy tanks, with a focus on long range fire power.


swap things about a bit to cheap hoard infantry supported by solid heavy "Tanks" with a focus on medium to short range firepower with melee and suddenly you've got tyranids. no one complains tyranids and guard are interfering with each other, although one could certainly argue they occupy similer design spaces. characterful units and fluff as well as some subtly differant abilities etc can make factions that might otherwise be argued to be the same quite differant.

One design space I'd say feels left is a "hoard psyker" I mean I SUPPOSE deamons qualifies but they could proably do something else with that design space as well






Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Sim-Life wrote:
Quasistellar wrote:
There’s the concept or “rage meters” and such with some video games, where a character does a certain action to raise the meter, and when it’s full they transform their play style.

I’m wondering if something like this can be done for a whole faction. I wouldn’t want to make it too tracking heavy though.

I’m really unsure how to do it TBH. I was thinking maybe a faction based off of small weak squads (think gants or guardsmen). Every time a unit dies, some progress towards a different army wide bonus is made.

Like, let’s say they start out with a shooting bonus like maybe expert crafters or something. Once they lose enough units they become enraged and get a fighting bonus like blood angels (while losing the shooting bonus)

I wouldn’t base it off of something the enemy could too easily prevent though. I did like the idea of throwing waves of chaff at the enemy and becoming “stronger” for it. Maybe only dying in combat raises the counter?

Then once you kill a certain amount of units in combat the bonus goes back to shooting?

IKD it’s just an idea—probably one of the harder to balance properly.


Greenskins, Dark Elves and Tomb Kings all have a mechanic similar to this in Total War: Warhammer. Greenskins fill a bar to trigger a WAAAAGH as they fight, Dark Elves and Tomb Kings fill as they die. Dark Elves get melee buffs when its full and Tomb Kings get tiered bonuses to various thing and can summon an Ushabti unit when its full.


didn't 7th editions Khorne deamonkin have a similer rule? and IIRC some AOS factions have something similer. so GW's done this type of thing before.



Edit: So.. combining the two traints of thought, what about some sort of "Grot shaman" type army where grots earn waagh points each time they kill a unit, each time a unit dies etc, and special "Waagh shaman" units can use that waagh energy somehow?

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/07/29 08:36:23


Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
Made in gb
Killer Klaivex




The dark behind the eyes.

Honestly, I think the current core rules mean that there isn't even design space for half the armies in the game right now, even before you start adding additional ones.

As for the idea of an army focussed on auras and mortal wounds, I think you could argue that armies of this kind already exist. Even if they didn't, auras and mortal wounds are design concepts that deserve to be thrown into a fire - not made even more ubiquitous.

 the_scotsman wrote:
Yeah, when i read the small novel that is the Death Guard unit options and think about resolving the attacks from a melee-oriented min size death guard squad, the thing that springs to mind is "Accessible!"

 Argive wrote:
GW seems to have a crystal ball and just pulls hairbrained ideas out of their backside for the most part.


 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

"Prepare to open fire at that towering Wraithknight!"
"ARE YOU DAFT MAN!?! YOU MIGHT HIT THE MEN WHO COME UP TO ITS ANKLES!!!"


Akiasura wrote:
I hate to sound like a serial killer, but I'll be reaching for my friend occam's razor yet again.


 insaniak wrote:

You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.

Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet.
 
   
Made in us
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Right behind you.

We don't even have a good representation of an iconic army, the Imperial Guard, and y'all want the Hrud?
   
Made in us
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well, in terms of gameplay you only have a limited amount of variables you can manipulate that will define the army. In basic form, this revolves around the different phases...Movement, psychic, shooting, and assault.

Movement,,,,the only thing we don't see currently is an army that has an ability to shunt itself around the board, but this would be such a strong ability the downside would need to be fairly drastic. This movement could be through warp portals, which would make them a very strong psychic race.

Psychic... I think I would love to see a race almost entirely dependent upon psychics, where this would influence it's movement, defensive and offensive capabilities.

Shooting....not sure how much more variety we can introduce here

Assault...likewise

So in my mind, this new race needs to be heavily psychic with some serious movement shenanigans. To offset this, there would need to be an inherent fragility.
Perhaps leaning into the Khrave a little, or similar. You could also incorporate "slave" Imperial Guard to flesh out the army thus requiring a smaller model investment initially.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut






I feel like the design space is not really there, because they have already aimed for a "your army can be whatever you want it to be" kind of thing, and as such nothing fits into its own design space. With vehicles now being the same as monsters, an ork dreadmob is virtually indistinguishable from nidzilla, once you boil it down to tactics, stats and playstyle.

The best thing they could do for the game, to make design space, would be to restrict the current armies, then fragment them.

Doubtless they'd start with spehs mehreens, so they should go through the chapters and make them very distinct, and not overly blending-together-y. Then do the same with ork clans, tau sects (is that the right term?), Eldar craftworlds, Imperial Guard Regiments, Hive fleets, and so on.

Working with what I know, Orks would be broken into the main klans, and then they would be made to feel properly unique - not just a token ability or stratagem, but unique detachments, unit costs, and uses. Let Bad Moons have more vehicle upgrades, EG kannon wagons with paired kannons (and no transport at all), let Deff Skulls have looted vehicles, let bloodaxes have cheaper kommandos as troops, and so on.

Once you have the klans/chapters/hivefleets etc. looking distinctive instead of just another colour, then you might find that there are design spaces which open up.


Look at old 40k as an example; Land Raider Crusaders used to be limited to one per army, except for templars. Templars had to include an emerors champion. As such, Templars were distinct in the game, they weren't just black & white space marines doing whatever they felt like, they had to have an emperors champion and they had to work out the best way to use it, and to that end they had access to landraiders with high capacity.

To really make these work, you could break armies down into traits which you can pick out for your klans, and which the normal klans have preset, as a basis to work from. EG looted vehicles, extra gubbins, red wunz go fasta, mob rule, skarboys, grot rebels, etc., all of which have (obvious) traits, and you pick 2 to make your klan. They can also have traits like disallowing units (EG skarboys might disallow gretchin from the list).


I guess I feel like 40k is too permissive when it comes to the design of your army to leave any space for new ones!

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I'm Selling Infinity, 40k, dystopian wars, UK based!

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Made in ca
Regular Dakkanaut





Quasistellar wrote:
There’s the concept or “rage meters” and such with some video games, where a character does a certain action to raise the meter, and when it’s full they transform their play style.

I’m wondering if something like this can be done for a whole faction. I wouldn’t want to make it too tracking heavy though.

I’m really unsure how to do it TBH. I was thinking maybe a faction based off of small weak squads (think gants or guardsmen). Every time a unit dies, some progress towards a different army wide bonus is made.

Like, let’s say they start out with a shooting bonus like maybe expert crafters or something. Once they lose enough units they become enraged and get a fighting bonus like blood angels (while losing the shooting bonus)

I wouldn’t base it off of something the enemy could too easily prevent though. I did like the idea of throwing waves of chaff at the enemy and becoming “stronger” for it. Maybe only dying in combat raises the counter?

Then once you kill a certain amount of units in combat the bonus goes back to shooting?

IKD it’s just an idea—probably one of the harder to balance properly.


Hmm, that's a really interesting idea, but yeah, I could see tracking it being a nightmare if not implemented right. Out of the races that don't yet have armies, I think an idea like this would most closely fit with the Men of Iron. They are learning machines and they adapt to the battle as it progresses. You could have some kind of multiple slider for the army set aside the table say different columns and as things happen in the game, you move the track forward. Then at say half and full, different things happen for various tracks. Score enough hits in shooting, your accuracy is better, kill enough in melee, your attacks are stronger, spend enough CP, your Ld is higher. That's a really basic results take on it, but you see where I'm going. I really like this one.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
BrianDavion wrote:

One design space I'd say feels left is a "hoard psyker" I mean I SUPPOSE deamons qualifies but they could proably do something else with that design space as well


Yeah, the closest we've got to all psykers is Grey Knights and they certainly aren't' a horde army. I was actually just thinking about it the other day when I was trying to put together a psyker heavy chaos list and the best I could really do outside of characters was include some rouge psykers from BSF. Not saying it has to be chaos, but a large and fragile psyker heavy army would be really cool. Very glass cannon style.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/29 14:48:04


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Made in us
Stoic Grail Knight




Two design spaces I can think of:

1. A depletion mechanic for an army. As the army loses X number of units, it gets greater buffs. Like: 25% of starting units destroyed, army gains +1 to armor saves, 50% destroyed, armywide +2A, 75% destroyed, gain advance + charge, e.t.c.

2. Multi-turn build-up buffs. Instead of 're-roll 1's within 6"', something akin to "this unit can perform a RITUAL action at the start of the turn, the action ends at the end of the turn. For every RITUAL action completed by the unit, models within X"/Y"/Z" gain +1A/+2A/+3A" or "after completing three RITUAL actions, units within 3" may shoot twice every shooting phase".

Ignore exact numbers I threw out. Not trying to be balanced, just trying to illustrate how mechanics would work.
   
Made in ca
Regular Dakkanaut





 some bloke wrote:


The best thing they could do for the game, to make design space, would be to restrict the current armies, then fragment them.



Yeah, this would be a great place to start. It really does feel like they can all do everything and that the differences are incidental most of the time. Like IF's and their successors should just be the ones with Bolter Discipline (except BT since they are their own thing), Ultramarines and theirs would be Combat Doctrines, Blood Angels and theirs would be shock Assault ect... (They could all keep ATSKNF since it's always been ubiquitous).

The one downside to this as it would be basically impossible to balance, not a big deal in casual, but competitive would be a problem. However, they could solve this by just letting people play whatever faction they want at tournament regardless of paint scheme. Then everyone could play their factions top tier sub faction and that's all that would really need to be close in balance. It's not a perfect solution, but I think it would solve more problems that it causes and it would certainly feel good to have my armies feel unique again.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Audustum wrote:


Multi-turn build-up buffs. Instead of 're-roll 1's within 6"', something akin to "this unit can perform a RITUAL action at the start of the turn, the action ends at the end of the turn. For every RITUAL action completed by the unit, models within X"/Y"/Z" gain +1A/+2A/+3A" or "after completing three RITUAL actions, units within 3" may shoot twice every shooting phase".

Ignore exact numbers I threw out. Not trying to be balanced, just trying to illustrate how mechanics would work.


That's a neat idea. Would be interesting strategy wise too. Do you try and focus down the ritual units or go after the others before they can be buffed.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/07/29 15:00:12


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The actual design space exists within each individual codex. You could theoretically create an infinite amount of armies and themes because the core rules themselves barely exist to begin with. Armies primarily interact with themselves and codewords, not a core ruleset.
   
Made in us
Squishy Squig





One big missed opportunity is internal objectives of armies that, once completed reward tangible value to an army. These internal objectives could be used to add an additional layer to strategic risk reward when balanced against secondaries.

For instance take a ork "Waagh!" field, if the codex had specific goals tied to the criminally underused action system introduced, you could impart tangible value to the army.

As a example:
-Defeat 2 units in CC, then use an action to construct a Boss Pole.

The actions would ensure that the value earned for completing the objective cant be received on the very first turn, even if the actual objective isnt super difficult to achieve. Having to choose between accomplishing a secondary for VP or going for an internal objective to get value that could set you up to win convincingly I think would be a fun mechanic.

In terms of a new army, something like a heretic army completed steps of a ritual for some gain could I think be a lot of fun.

Especially if

A - The result of the ritual was based on which internal objectives you had completed that match.

B - The value was tiered and could be cashed out at any point by the player.

This would benefit army construction as well, as now how good a unit is isnt as cut and dry. Asssuming the power of the reward was worth the investment, a mathematically worse unit may be able to accomplish a goal better than its rivals and thus has value strategically.
   
Made in ca
Regular Dakkanaut





 Halfton wrote:
One big missed opportunity is internal objectives of armies that, once completed reward tangible value to an army. These internal objectives could be used to add an additional layer to strategic risk reward when balanced against secondaries.

For instance take a ork "Waagh!" field, if the codex had specific goals tied to the criminally underused action system introduced, you could impart tangible value to the army.

As a example:
-Defeat 2 units in CC, then use an action to construct a Boss Pole.

The actions would ensure that the value earned for completing the objective cant be received on the very first turn, even if the actual objective isnt super difficult to achieve. Having to choose between accomplishing a secondary for VP or going for an internal objective to get value that could set you up to win convincingly I think would be a fun mechanic.

In terms of a new army, something like a heretic army completed steps of a ritual for some gain could I think be a lot of fun.

Especially if

A - The result of the ritual was based on which internal objectives you had completed that match.

B - The value was tiered and could be cashed out at any point by the player.

This would benefit army construction as well, as now how good a unit is isnt as cut and dry. Asssuming the power of the reward was worth the investment, a mathematically worse unit may be able to accomplish a goal better than its rivals and thus has value strategically.


This one is really creative. The more choices to make the better, I like the idea of having some internal objective beyond the main one. It's kinda like what I thought secondary's would be like the first time I heard about them. It would have to be something that's likely to achieve in turn 2-3 though as (like you said) you don't want it on 1 and I'd imagine it usually wouldn't be worth it on 4 or 5 unless it is something specifically designed to help late game. I feel like there's a lot of space to play with in for this one.

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1000 1000 1000 1000  
   
Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut





 Tawnis wrote:
 Halfton wrote:
One big missed opportunity is internal objectives of armies that, once completed reward tangible value to an army. These internal objectives could be used to add an additional layer to strategic risk reward when balanced against secondaries.

For instance take a ork "Waagh!" field, if the codex had specific goals tied to the criminally underused action system introduced, you could impart tangible value to the army.

As a example:
-Defeat 2 units in CC, then use an action to construct a Boss Pole.

The actions would ensure that the value earned for completing the objective cant be received on the very first turn, even if the actual objective isnt super difficult to achieve. Having to choose between accomplishing a secondary for VP or going for an internal objective to get value that could set you up to win convincingly I think would be a fun mechanic.

In terms of a new army, something like a heretic army completed steps of a ritual for some gain could I think be a lot of fun.

Especially if

A - The result of the ritual was based on which internal objectives you had completed that match.

B - The value was tiered and could be cashed out at any point by the player.

This would benefit army construction as well, as now how good a unit is isnt as cut and dry. Asssuming the power of the reward was worth the investment, a mathematically worse unit may be able to accomplish a goal better than its rivals and thus has value strategically.


This one is really creative. The more choices to make the better, I like the idea of having some internal objective beyond the main one. It's kinda like what I thought secondary's would be like the first time I heard about them. It would have to be something that's likely to achieve in turn 2-3 though as (like you said) you don't want it on 1 and I'd imagine it usually wouldn't be worth it on 4 or 5 unless it is something specifically designed to help late game. I feel like there's a lot of space to play with in for this one.


This right here is EXACTLY what Crusade does. Like Sister taking Penitent Oaths when they fail, or redeeming themselves once they've taken the Oath, or becoming living saints. It's Admech tearing apart enemy vehicles to acquire components to invent new machines; it's Drukhari using their prestige and raid spoils to acquire territory in Commorragh, which can then be leveraged to create impacts on the battlefield.

I can almost guarantee that growing and maintaining a Waaagh will be the focus of the bespoke Crusade content in the Ork dex. If not, then yes, very much a wasted opportunity.
   
Made in ca
Regular Dakkanaut





I really like what GW did with Primaris Marines so I think they should expand it with some kind of Custodes/Primaris crossover.

Basically, fluff wise, the emperor sent his most chosen and secretive elite of the elite of the elite into the warp on an especially secret and elite mission.

This chapter, the real first chapter, the OmegaUltra Marines got lost in the warp as they fought all the chaos gods at once and time stood still.

Now they have returned and they wear power armour that is even bigger than Primaris marines. They are even more chosen by the Emperor than the Custodes.

They have 4 wounds.

They have 10 different weapon profiles that all do different damage and so must be rolled individually.
   
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Insect-Infested Nurgle Chaos Lord






 Hellebore wrote:

Anything beyond this really seems to get shot down by the community - basically if it doesn't play the way space marines play it's not normal/standard/desirable...



How else would SMs steal the armies gimmick in the future if it didn't operate like they did?



A GW fan walks into a bar, buys the same drink as yesterday but pays more.

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If you break apart my or anyone else's posts line by line I will not read them. 
   
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There's tons of room for more, but the writers and designers have to be brave enough to do it, and the marketing department has to believe that they can sell it.

The reason so much is gobbled up by Space Marines is the age-old wisdom: they sell. Introducing another xenos race is going to send a shiver up the marketing department's spine. Sure, they could push it through and take a risk, but then there's the other issue: community backlash.

The last time GW introduced a brand new xenos race that wasn't in the original rogue trader or hinted at in some scrap piece of notebook paper from the early days, the community railed on it, and even to this day it has one of the worst reputations, is horribly over-memed, and people casually insult their players without a second thought. The Tau.

As far as GW is concerned, 40k isn't broke, so why fix it? What they're doing is working, they're selling models and making profit hand over fist, and the pressure from the community right now is more on updating Eldar than anything else.
   
Made in ca
Regular Dakkanaut





drbored wrote:
There's tons of room for more, but the writers and designers have to be brave enough to do it, and the marketing department has to believe that they can sell it.

The reason so much is gobbled up by Space Marines is the age-old wisdom: they sell. Introducing another xenos race is going to send a shiver up the marketing department's spine. Sure, they could push it through and take a risk, but then there's the other issue: community backlash.

The last time GW introduced a brand new xenos race that wasn't in the original rogue trader or hinted at in some scrap piece of notebook paper from the early days, the community railed on it, and even to this day it has one of the worst reputations, is horribly over-memed, and people casually insult their players without a second thought. The Tau.

As far as GW is concerned, 40k isn't broke, so why fix it? What they're doing is working, they're selling models and making profit hand over fist, and the pressure from the community right now is more on updating Eldar than anything else.


I guess it depends if they realize that to vocal minority does not represent all players. The Tau (specifically the Kroot) are my favorite race, but the Tau themselves are pretty cool too and I know quite a few player that love them. They just don't run around declaring their Tau love to the cosmos like some people feel like they have to do with their dislike for them. The dumb thing is, that even if you get a bunch of people that dislike a faction, wouldn't that still be a good thing because then they'll want to play against them so that can try and kick their teeth in? I mean I guess that's a reasonable assumption and not everyone is reasonable, but still...

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drbored wrote:
There's tons of room for more, but the writers and designers have to be brave enough to do it, and the marketing department has to believe that they can sell it.

The reason so much is gobbled up by Space Marines is the age-old wisdom: they sell. Introducing another xenos race is going to send a shiver up the marketing department's spine. Sure, they could push it through and take a risk, but then there's the other issue: community backlash.

The last time GW introduced a brand new xenos race that wasn't in the original rogue trader or hinted at in some scrap piece of notebook paper from the early days, the community railed on it, and even to this day it has one of the worst reputations, is horribly over-memed, and people casually insult their players without a second thought. The Tau.

As far as GW is concerned, 40k isn't broke, so why fix it? What they're doing is working, they're selling models and making profit hand over fist, and the pressure from the community right now is more on updating Eldar than anything else.


Tau truly don't belong in 40K. They only exist here so that the suits in Nottingham can milk people who like Japanese sci-fi mangas.
   
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Regular Dakkanaut




I still think there's several factions GW can explore, such as:

- Lost and the Damned/Renegades and Heretics: I personally feel this should be 2 separate additions, one represents the more human militant arms of CSM warbands rather than just Chaos Cultists. The other represents anything from normal human traitors, to Chaos warbands that aren't controlled by CSM's.

- Dark Mechanicus: Should have similar options to the current Ad-Mech codex, except with all of the Daemon Engines that we see in codex CSM as well as more of their own flavour.

- Tau Auxiliaries: Just a massive expansion here. Kroot could easily have a dozen or so units. Vespid could possibly be expanded to at least have a HQ, Troop, and Fast Attack/Elite choice. Then there's all the other auxiliaries they have, such as: Demiurg, Nicassar, even Gue'vesa rules could be fun. Give them their own detachment bonuses to make mono-Kroot armies viable. Otherwise any of them can be taken in a Tau detachment without breaking that detachments or armies abilities (without gaining them themselves).

- Imperial Agents: Not just assassins, but the ability to be able to take things like Adeptus Arbites who probably don't have enough lore for their own codex, Astra Telepathica every Imperial faction should be able to take Astropaths and Navigators at the very least, Rogue Traders we have some awesome models but can't take them in regular armies currently, etc.

- Sisters of Silence: They should be expanded upon to be the games 2 wound female faction. Basically more elite than the Adepta Sororitas.

- Ab-humans: Bring back Imperial Beastmen, bring back Squats, add more options for Ratlings and Ogyrns. Introduce some more ab-human races from lore onto the tabletop, or create new ones entirely.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/30 04:14:01


 
   
Made in ca
Legendary Master of the Chapter





 Strg Alt wrote:
drbored wrote:
There's tons of room for more, but the writers and designers have to be brave enough to do it, and the marketing department has to believe that they can sell it.

The reason so much is gobbled up by Space Marines is the age-old wisdom: they sell. Introducing another xenos race is going to send a shiver up the marketing department's spine. Sure, they could push it through and take a risk, but then there's the other issue: community backlash.

The last time GW introduced a brand new xenos race that wasn't in the original rogue trader or hinted at in some scrap piece of notebook paper from the early days, the community railed on it, and even to this day it has one of the worst reputations, is horribly over-memed, and people casually insult their players without a second thought. The Tau.

As far as GW is concerned, 40k isn't broke, so why fix it? What they're doing is working, they're selling models and making profit hand over fist, and the pressure from the community right now is more on updating Eldar than anything else.


Tau truly don't belong in 40K. They only exist here so that the suits in Nottingham can milk people who like Japanese sci-fi mangas.




aaaand you prove drboreds point perfectly

Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
Made in au
Longtime Dakkanaut




Tau have been hit hard I think be a design of ranged combat in a game that has dug itself into a love of CC at the expense of the setting design.

To much design space is taken up by trying to make things work against a system that only really supports basic ideas.
Marines are central to the setting, but the rules need to be expanded with others in mind as well or it’s just ends in the mess we have now I feel.
   
Made in gb
Killer Klaivex




The dark behind the eyes.

 Strg Alt wrote:
drbored wrote:
There's tons of room for more, but the writers and designers have to be brave enough to do it, and the marketing department has to believe that they can sell it.

The reason so much is gobbled up by Space Marines is the age-old wisdom: they sell. Introducing another xenos race is going to send a shiver up the marketing department's spine. Sure, they could push it through and take a risk, but then there's the other issue: community backlash.

The last time GW introduced a brand new xenos race that wasn't in the original rogue trader or hinted at in some scrap piece of notebook paper from the early days, the community railed on it, and even to this day it has one of the worst reputations, is horribly over-memed, and people casually insult their players without a second thought. The Tau.

As far as GW is concerned, 40k isn't broke, so why fix it? What they're doing is working, they're selling models and making profit hand over fist, and the pressure from the community right now is more on updating Eldar than anything else.


Tau truly don't belong in 40K. They only exist here so that the suits in Nottingham can milk people who like Japanese sci-fi mangas.


This puzzles me as neither the Tau nor their battlesuits (or even their Kroot allies) appear to have cat ears.

 the_scotsman wrote:
Yeah, when i read the small novel that is the Death Guard unit options and think about resolving the attacks from a melee-oriented min size death guard squad, the thing that springs to mind is "Accessible!"

 Argive wrote:
GW seems to have a crystal ball and just pulls hairbrained ideas out of their backside for the most part.


 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

"Prepare to open fire at that towering Wraithknight!"
"ARE YOU DAFT MAN!?! YOU MIGHT HIT THE MEN WHO COME UP TO ITS ANKLES!!!"


Akiasura wrote:
I hate to sound like a serial killer, but I'll be reaching for my friend occam's razor yet again.


 insaniak wrote:

You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.

Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet.
 
   
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 Strg Alt wrote:


Tau truly don't belong in 40K. They only exist here so that the suits in Nottingham can milk people who like Japanese sci-fi mangas.


I was a fan of Tau long before I read any Manga, and even now that I've read a handful, I'm not a Mecha fan. I prefer my battlesuits BattleTech or Titan style.

For me, the Tau are the impossible spark of hope that makes the Grim Dark of the 41st millennium actually feel Grim Dark. If there is nothing to contrast it against, and everything is just gak all the time, then that is just the way it is, there's nothing special about it and no way to see how gak it really is. Seeing something that could actually make a difference in theory being beaten back by the absolute madness of the galaxy is one of the great dark stories. It's also a great continuation of the cycle of the Galaxy. The Eldar had their empire span the stars, then they fell and birthed a freaking chaos God, then Humanity had their great Crusade, then they fell and gave Chaos arguably their strongest warriors. Now the Tau rise, and from the cycle of the galaxy, they too will inevitably fall, causing who knows what calamity in the future and becoming just as jaded and messed up as all the other races, only for something new to take their place and the rising power. Seeing these three races in their various stages, all more-less mirrors of each other at different points in time, I find very much in keeping with the dark inevitable tone of 40k and a truly fascinating story.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/07/30 15:32:37


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 Tawnis wrote:
Quasistellar wrote:
There’s the concept or “rage meters” and such with some video games, where a character does a certain action to raise the meter, and when it’s full they transform their play style.

I’m wondering if something like this can be done for a whole faction. I wouldn’t want to make it too tracking heavy though.

I’m really unsure how to do it TBH. I was thinking maybe a faction based off of small weak squads (think gants or guardsmen). Every time a unit dies, some progress towards a different army wide bonus is made.

Like, let’s say they start out with a shooting bonus like maybe expert crafters or something. Once they lose enough units they become enraged and get a fighting bonus like blood angels (while losing the shooting bonus)

I wouldn’t base it off of something the enemy could too easily prevent though. I did like the idea of throwing waves of chaff at the enemy and becoming “stronger” for it. Maybe only dying in combat raises the counter?

Then once you kill a certain amount of units in combat the bonus goes back to shooting?

IKD it’s just an idea—probably one of the harder to balance properly.


Hmm, that's a really interesting idea, but yeah, I could see tracking it being a nightmare if not implemented right. Out of the races that don't yet have armies, I think an idea like this would most closely fit with the Men of Iron. They are learning machines and they adapt to the battle as it progresses. You could have some kind of multiple slider for the army set aside the table say different columns and as things happen in the game, you move the track forward. Then at say half and full, different things happen for various tracks. Score enough hits in shooting, your accuracy is better, kill enough in melee, your attacks are stronger, spend enough CP, your Ld is higher. That's a really basic results take on it, but you see where I'm going. I really like this one.



Kinda, but my idea is not so much "get better" as it is "get different". If they get better in one thing, they get worse in another.

I don't want an army that just gets improvements as they do stuff -- that has a bit of a snowball effect, and has kinda been done before. The idea came to me when I was looking at the AdMech codex with the way the holy orders work and the way the Kastelan robots work.

Not a bad idea with "men of iron" being the ones to work like this, though! Call the army-wide rule "Adaptive Intelligence (AI)". The reason they don't simply "get better" overall can be written into the fluff as something to do with their long term storage (hard drives) degraded over the millenia, yet their short term (ram) still functions or some such 40k equivalent hand wavery. If they improve in one way, they get worse in another during a match.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/30 16:31:42


 
   
Made in ca
Regular Dakkanaut





Quasistellar wrote:
 Tawnis wrote:


Hmm, that's a really interesting idea, but yeah, I could see tracking it being a nightmare if not implemented right. Out of the races that don't yet have armies, I think an idea like this would most closely fit with the Men of Iron. They are learning machines and they adapt to the battle as it progresses. You could have some kind of multiple slider for the army set aside the table say different columns and as things happen in the game, you move the track forward. Then at say half and full, different things happen for various tracks. Score enough hits in shooting, your accuracy is better, kill enough in melee, your attacks are stronger, spend enough CP, your Ld is higher. That's a really basic results take on it, but you see where I'm going. I really like this one.



Kinda, but my idea is not so much "get better" as it is "get different". If they get better in one thing, they get worse in another.

I don't want an army that just gets improvements as they do stuff -- that has a bit of a snowball effect, and has kinda been done before. The idea came to me when I was looking at the AdMech codex with the way the holy orders work and the way the Kastelan robots work.

Not a bad idea with "men of iron" being the ones to work like this, though! Call the army-wide rule "Adaptive Intelligence (AI)". The reason they don't simply "get better" overall can be written into the fluff as something to do with their long term storage (hard drives) degraded over the millenia, yet their short term (ram) still functions or some such 40k equivalent hand wavery. If they improve in one way, they get worse in another during a match.


Ah, okay, I get what you mean. Yeah, maybe they have kind of a weak baseline stat but can be given "programs" or whatever to make them very adapted to specific situations. It could even all be trigger based so if X is true then do this thing. Squad size <X? Your armour save goes up, but movement goes down as they defend themselves. Killed X units in melee? Their WS goes up to show them learning to fight their targets up close, but their BS goes down as they are less focused on ranged combat. You'd have basically a bunch of mini objectives through the game to try and get your units buffed in the ways that you want and depending on the buffs, you could have multiple at the same time, the two examples I gave don't have to be mutually exclusive. Balance would be a little tricky as certain things are much easier or harder to do against various armies, but if the rewards are reflective of that, I think it could work.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/07/30 17:34:40


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Aren't tau big on mind control and basically castrating some of the newer auxiliaries they have?

Tau auxiliaries could be fun with kroot and vespids and maybe tau imperial guard as well as other alien mercenaries. Ofc the lore has changed.

If they're not gonna make a lost and the damned traitor guard army or tau imperial guard they should at least give a doctrine or multiple doctrines for those possible sub factions.

Eldar exodites would be interesting but with how many eldar factions there are and how little attention they get (esp. Harlequins model wise) I don't know that this would be a good idea.

Sisters of silence could be fun. Maybe combine sisters of silence with custodes or maybe not since I think that's part of why Sisters of Battle went to crap.

I think Hrud, Enslavers or those cthulu inspired mf'er aliens could be interesting. Ofc maybe they're too alien looking and 40k is like 50% power armor and 50% imperial forces anyway which is quite frustrating honestly.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/07/30 18:24:06


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I'd settle for Old Crons. Basically an OP army that has a shutoff valve (Phase Out) you have to plan for both in the army's list-building and when playing against it. Great design, imo.

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 flamingkillamajig wrote:
Aren't tau big on mind control and basically castrating some of the newer auxiliaries they have?

Tau auxiliaries could be fun with kroot and vespids and maybe tau imperial guard as well as other alien mercenaries. Ofc the lore has changed.

If they're not gonna make a lost and the damned traitor guard army or tau imperial guard they should at least give a doctrine or multiple doctrines for those possible sub factions.

Eldar exodites would be interesting but with how many eldar factions there are and how little attention they get (esp. Harlequins model wise) I don't know that this would be a good idea.

Sisters of silence could be fun. Maybe combine sisters of silence with custodes or maybe not since I think that's part of why Sisters of Battle went to crap.

I think Hrud, Enslavers or those cthulu inspired mf'er aliens could be interesting. Ofc maybe they're too alien looking and 40k is like 50% power armor and 50% imperial forces anyway which is quite frustrating honestly.


Yeah sort of, but the Etheral's (still quite vague) mind control like effects only work on Tau and only in close proximity.

While I'm not holing my breath, I wouldn't be surprised to see a little Gue'Vesa (Tau Humans) doctrine or something show up, they did something like that for GSC.

We'll probably see that in the next Custodes codex. They are already the same faction "Talons of the Emperor" in the new Kill Team.

IKR, Imperium is all well and good, but more crazy aliens please. Let's get some bonkers sculpts that aren't demonic for once.

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 flamingkillamajig wrote:
Aren't tau big on mind control and basically castrating some of the newer auxiliaries they have?


Both are just implied and left up to the reader to decide (something which I'm astounded GW have left ambiguous), but heavily leaning towards it being true, which makes for some good grimdark. You know, the goody two shoes noblebright faction who on the surface "doesn't belong in 40k" having several skeletons in their collective closet that become more and more heavily implied to be true to deeper you dig.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/31 07:45:21




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