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Made in us
Daring Dark Eldar Raider Rider



CT

gungo wrote:
Should a glass army just stand in optimal range of a gunline army loaded with rapid fire/Dakka weapons and say come shoot me bro?

The drukari list was built around first turn assault got first turn and failed to assault and left themselves vulnerable in the open with no protection. Then rolled poorly on saves from str 5/6 range weapons with bs4+ shooting and ap1/2 weapons. And then got folllowed up with a bunch of easy charge rolls….I mean this list has been around for 3 months and it’s not exactly tearing up the tournament scene.

My point is similar drukari lists are literally winning most tournaments, besting similar ork lists along the way and achieving absurd 70%+winrates. There are going to be blowouts when someone plays poor, rolls poorly even if they are playing the current fotm net list especially When they face a bad matchup. Sounds to me like someone simply got outplayed because even with this 1 fringe case I can list about a dozen other tournaments where drukari are winning vs similar freebooter lists. It’s not even close drukari are literally tearing up the meta right now with 70%+ win rates…, not orks… and this type of freebooter ork list has been out for 3 months and played in nearly every major tournament since and you know what faction has been winning most of those tournaments? Drukari….



I mean drukhari are a strong army. But they’re winning events by avoiding Orks. Or playing bad ork lists. They aren’t tearing up ork lists. Also they’re win percentage has dropped in the high 50’s low 60’s the last few months. Admech are the king of win percentage right now and largely one of the few armies that can use their regular build to beat Orks.

Anyway. People can argue I made a mistake. Or I left myself out there. Really I don’t care. But the ork player had already turn one or turn 2 crushed two other drukhari players who both had more guns and higher toughness vehicles than I. So I could have run out and hoped to pass an overwhelming number of saves and then make some charges and still get tabled by the way. Or I could hide and still get tabled. Or really do whatever and still get tabled. One of those choices would be over the fastest while presenting the highest chance of victory. So I took it.

Also if you think my list was built for turn one assaults you’re wrong. My list doesn’t do real turn one damage. It’s a counter play charge list built in incubi combat. Which by the way does nothing to ork vehicles.

It was a bad matchup. Likely the most lopsided game of 40K I’ve ever been involved in. And sadly speaks to a style of 40K I don’t particularly enjoy. Because the counter measures for me involve playing lists that are boring. But it is what it is.

 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




You were in a no win situation. I mean the biggest issue I can see is the flyer wall… that just shouldn’t be a way to block out the units behind them like that. I’m sorry bro and skew lists like that aren’t fun.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/10/28 04:42:13


 
   
Made in it
Longtime Dakkanaut





Let's face it, this was an issue with the game, not with the players.

Now, I don't think that you can really fix situations like this. We saw a glass army trying a risky move which left it in the open against an alpha strike list. Alpha strike list vs glass army fully exposed will always end like that.
You can say that lethality is too high, but even if he did remove a couple units less, the game was set. You don't win after losing 1800 points, but you don't win even if you lose half that.

The real underlying issue here, is why the glass army player was forced into that rush as his only choice.
The problem was that the opponent list was based on no-LoS and planes. Those are threaths with which you can't interact.

That is the real problem.
Lethality can be fine when the other player has a say in it.
Drukhari are ultra lethal, but apart from them being a little too cheap, they are perfectly fine to play with and against. They make for fun games, and if they had some points less, they would also make for great games.

Plane Admech or Speedwaaghs instead just telegraph you what is going to happen and there is nothing you can do to stop them short of killing them first.
There is no terrain play, maneuver, objective play, nothing at all that will matter.

This is what is ruining the competitive scenario right now. Those lists not only are highly effective, but they also make for very binary games. It is pushing the meta in a terrible direction.

If something has to change, it has to fix that point.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/10/28 06:59:06


 
   
Made in it
Gargantuan Gargant




Italy

 the_scotsman wrote:


Should a 2,000 point list built in the strategy layer of the game to counter another particular faction be capable of removing 90% of a list of that faction in a single turn?

Let's say orks are powerful and dominant, just all the units in the ork codex. Should it be possible for me to decide 'I'm going to make my list to destroy orks' and if you show up with an ork list, I get to kill 90% of your army in one turn?


If this happens on regular basis yeah it's terrible game deisgn. If it happens once, and it does considering how many times very similar lists fight each other at tournaments, who cares, it's a dice game.

Lethality is certainly too high in current 40k, but it's hard to kill more than 500-600 points of enemy stuff in one turn typically. 1800 is once every thousand games.

Take a football analogy, recently Manchester United vs Liverpool ended up 0-5. A game involving two of the most important teams should be as close as possible in order to provide the best possible amount of entertaining to the average watcher. If this happened frequently then Premier League would lose appeal, if that happens once it even increases the appeal as that game was a lot of fun to watch if perceived as something extraordinary. Same with that 40k game, as a one off it can even be a positive thing, if it becomes the norm it would kill the game.


 
   
Made in de
Longtime Dakkanaut



Bamberg / Erlangen

I don't think that even under perfect conditions, one army should be able to wipe out 90% of another army.

Like Spoletta, I see the bigger issue here being the lack of available counterplay, with the high lethality taking the second place.

Both should be looked at, but the former is the more pressing issue.

What do you guys think? Would it help if flyers could not start the game on the board?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/10/28 08:04:20


Imperial Guard Space Marines
 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




Glad to see the Speedwaaagh isn't being held back by overpowered forests...

Really it would be interesting (although difficult without a programme) to crunch the probability to work out if this is a "freak" outcome - or just something you'd expect around 25%+ of the time if the Ork list can deliver its firepower. Because I don't think its anything like a 1 in 1000 response. Reducing 40k down to pure luck is perhaps too reductive for some, but with these sort of lists I think its basically correct - because good players will maneuver optimally, so it is largely down to dice.

But yeah - I think damage in 40k is out of whack, its hard to reach any other obvious conclusion. Its no different when a DE list annihilates someone at the top of turn 2.

Everything is just tuned far too aggressively. Saying "you should keep your entire army out of LOS" just turns the game into a sort of whackamole - the first to leave their bunker is probably dead unless your opponent skews to the "bad" 25% of outcomes.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/10/28 08:40:39


 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




a_typical_hero wrote:
What do you guys think? Would it help if flyers could not start the game on the board?


I think flyers have been an issue ever since they were introduced. There have frequently been broken lists that revolve around flyers and GW has had to change the rules for them multiple times in the last two editions. First we had the SM flyer spam with Bobby G that forced the Boots on the Ground change, then we had Eldar flyer walls that directly led to the (pretty useless) rules change that allowed units to move across the bases of flyers. That list archetype was also at least partly responsible for the 9th edition change to stacking modifiers. Now we have a problem where AdMech and Orks have flyers that are just too good and they can spam them.

You could fix the current problem with point adjustments. I think flyers are just an issue in general, though, because they have ridiculous mobility and board presence while being among the least interactive things in the game. If GW fixes these two armies we'll probably see the same problem in a slightly different guise at some point in the future. So I'd prefer to see flyers limited to 1 per Battalion or Brigade, which I believe is one of the solutions put forward by Goonhammer.

While I'm on this soapbox I'd also like to see more army building restrictions in general. The 6 Elites and 3 characters in a Battalion seems a little too generous at this point. One of the problems in 40k is you can just pick out and spam the overpowered stuff then worry about fitting it into the army structure. It also exacerbates the problem when some armies have a lot of their good units in Elites because for some reason you can take as many Elite units as you can Troops. I'm not sure GW understand the definition of that word.
   
Made in nl
Longtime Dakkanaut





a_typical_hero wrote:
I don't think that even under perfect conditions, one army should be able to wipe out 90% of another army.

Like Spoletta, I see the bigger issue here being the lack of available counterplay, with the high lethality taking the second place.

Both should be looked at, but the former is the more pressing issue.

What do you guys think? Would it help if flyers could not start the game on the board?
Starting off the board means you hide turn 1 and then do the same thing turn 2 anyway.
1 Flyer slot in a battalion, none in the specialized detachments (vanguard, outrider, spearhead) and simply remove the pure flyer detachment (does it still exist in 9th? donno don't play flyers).

Flyers, like Super Heavy's, don't really belong in the scale of 40k.
   
Made in it
Longtime Dakkanaut





As I said, lethality in itself isn't an issue.
DE lists are lethal by design without being a problem, because it is a kind of lethality which must be set up. It has play and counterplay.

The problem is when lethality is delivered by default.
Admechs solar flaring infantry blocks, planes, no-Los shooting and so on.

The worst moments of 40K history have usually been caused by lists where the lethality was guaranteed. CWE flyer spam of 8th, scatbikes of 7th, IH thunderfire of late 8th, IG basilisk spam of early 8th, invincible death stars of 7th...

These are the kind of things that harm the game.
Until situations like that happen, in the end a good player always finds a way to win, and the meta is hard fought. When non interactive lists start becoming meta, the game becomes just a math formula.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




Spoletta wrote:
As I said, lethality in itself isn't an issue.
DE lists are lethal by design without being a problem, because it is a kind of lethality which must be set up. It has play and counterplay.

The problem is when lethality is delivered by default.
Admechs solar flaring infantry blocks, planes, no-Los shooting and so on.

The worst moments of 40K history have usually been caused by lists where the lethality was guaranteed. CWE flyer spam of 8th, scatbikes of 7th, IH thunderfire of late 8th, IG basilisk spam of early 8th, invincible death stars of 7th...

These are the kind of things that harm the game.
Until situations like that happen, in the end a good player always finds a way to win, and the meta is hard fought. When non interactive lists start becoming meta, the game becomes just a math formula.


I agree - but feel you are being a bit generous on the level of counterplay DE let you have. The turn 2 death avalanche feels equally reasonably guaranteed - arguably it must be or they wouldn't be getting that 60%~ win rate. By degree this may be a problem more at the mid/low tables than the very top (because massed shooty lists going first are odds on to tear it apart) - but from a player perspective its the same problem. You can have bad luck - but average dice get transported Incubi/wyches etc 40" over 2 turns. You can't really hide.

You suggest points would tame them - but that would apply just as much to planes and no-LOS shooting.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut



London

Buuuutttt... it is perfectly possible in the real world to have match ups where one side is going to die after achieving very little. For 40k the question is can you build a list that has a fair chance against all comers? If that race can't and all they can do is design lists that crush some armies but fall to others, that is an issue as their design space is very constrained.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
For flyers in the real world they deliver their paylord very quickly then have to go get more. 40k fliers are just more amazing tanks.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/10/28 11:32:25


 
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






Slipspace wrote:
 Some_Call_Me_Tim wrote:


To answer the OP's question, I'd prefer to see something along the lines of 500-700 points destroyed in a favourable match-up where the opponent makes some minor errors in positioning. On planet bowling ball you could probably push that as high as 1000 points but that's a pretty artificial scenario. Something around 33% offensive efficiency is the generally accepted balance point for most games. I can see unfavourable scenarios and poor play from one player maybe pushing that up to 50% in extreme cases but no more than that.


33% efficiency in other games typically means an opponent completely out in the open and at extremely close range. Unfortunately 40k has not heard of range mods and cover mods absolutely worst case max out at 33% damage reduction if you have perfect perfect positioning both in cover, as infantry, and behind Dense.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Spoletta wrote:
As I said, lethality in itself isn't an issue.
DE lists are lethal by design without being a problem, because it is a kind of lethality which must be set up. It has play and counterplay.

The problem is when lethality is delivered by default.
Admechs solar flaring infantry blocks, planes, no-Los shooting and so on.

The worst moments of 40K history have usually been caused by lists where the lethality was guaranteed. CWE flyer spam of 8th, scatbikes of 7th, IH thunderfire of late 8th, IG basilisk spam of early 8th, invincible death stars of 7th...

These are the kind of things that harm the game.
Until situations like that happen, in the end a good player always finds a way to win, and the meta is hard fought. When non interactive lists start becoming meta, the game becomes just a math formula.


I would argue that the level of lethality that is army-wide average 90% points return is a problem regardless. Even if you set up two armies out in the open 2" away from one another and let one army COMPLETELY attack the other with zero obstacles I feel like that should max out at about 50-60% points return. and this wasnt even that - presumably there was cover somewhere on the battlefield that coul dhave been taken advantage of.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/10/28 11:42:12


"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
Made in us
Agile Revenant Titan





Florida

OrdoSean wrote:
gungo wrote:
Should a glass army just stand in optimal range of a gunline army loaded with rapid fire/Dakka weapons and say come shoot me bro?

The drukari list was built around first turn assault got first turn and failed to assault and left themselves vulnerable in the open with no protection. Then rolled poorly on saves from str 5/6 range weapons with bs4+ shooting and ap1/2 weapons. And then got folllowed up with a bunch of easy charge rolls….I mean this list has been around for 3 months and it’s not exactly tearing up the tournament scene.

My point is similar drukari lists are literally winning most tournaments, besting similar ork lists along the way and achieving absurd 70%+winrates. There are going to be blowouts when someone plays poor, rolls poorly even if they are playing the current fotm net list especially When they face a bad matchup. Sounds to me like someone simply got outplayed because even with this 1 fringe case I can list about a dozen other tournaments where drukari are winning vs similar freebooter lists. It’s not even close drukari are literally tearing up the meta right now with 70%+ win rates…, not orks… and this type of freebooter ork list has been out for 3 months and played in nearly every major tournament since and you know what faction has been winning most of those tournaments? Drukari….



I mean drukhari are a strong army. But they’re winning events by avoiding Orks. Or playing bad ork lists. They aren’t tearing up ork lists. Also they’re win percentage has dropped in the high 50’s low 60’s the last few months. Admech are the king of win percentage right now and largely one of the few armies that can use their regular build to beat Orks.

Anyway. People can argue I made a mistake. Or I left myself out there. Really I don’t care. But the ork player had already turn one or turn 2 crushed two other drukhari players who both had more guns and higher toughness vehicles than I. So I could have run out and hoped to pass an overwhelming number of saves and then make some charges and still get tabled by the way. Or I could hide and still get tabled. Or really do whatever and still get tabled. One of those choices would be over the fastest while presenting the highest chance of victory. So I took it.

Also if you think my list was built for turn one assaults you’re wrong. My list doesn’t do real turn one damage. It’s a counter play charge list built in incubi combat. Which by the way does nothing to ork vehicles.

It was a bad matchup. Likely the most lopsided game of 40K I’ve ever been involved in. And sadly speaks to a style of 40K I don’t particularly enjoy. Because the counter measures for me involve playing lists that are boring. But it is what it is.


I appreciate you taking the time to provide further insight to the game.

No earth shattering, thought provoking quote. I'm just someone who was introduced to 40K in the late 80's and it's become a lifelong hobby. 
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






a_typical_hero wrote:
I don't think that even under perfect conditions, one army should be able to wipe out 90% of another army.

Like Spoletta, I see the bigger issue here being the lack of available counterplay, with the high lethality taking the second place.

Both should be looked at, but the former is the more pressing issue.

What do you guys think? Would it help if flyers could not start the game on the board?


My personal opinion on flyers is that they should basically be a form of nearly-unassailable but unreliable fire support.

Make them flimsier in terms of wounds, tough and save, but give them back the old 'hit me on 6s unless youre a dedicated anti-air or another plane' rule, and instead of starting on the board they have to roll to see if they come on each turn, and then they just appear, anywhere on the battlefield they want to be.

then your opponent gets 1 turn to respond to them if they want to, and then theyre back in reserves rolling to see if they come on again, because theyre not actually moving around on the game board, theyre shooting by making strafing runs.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
OrdoSean wrote:
gungo wrote:
Should a glass army just stand in optimal range of a gunline army loaded with rapid fire/Dakka weapons and say come shoot me bro?

The drukari list was built around first turn assault got first turn and failed to assault and left themselves vulnerable in the open with no protection. Then rolled poorly on saves from str 5/6 range weapons with bs4+ shooting and ap1/2 weapons. And then got folllowed up with a bunch of easy charge rolls….I mean this list has been around for 3 months and it’s not exactly tearing up the tournament scene.

My point is similar drukari lists are literally winning most tournaments, besting similar ork lists along the way and achieving absurd 70%+winrates. There are going to be blowouts when someone plays poor, rolls poorly even if they are playing the current fotm net list especially When they face a bad matchup. Sounds to me like someone simply got outplayed because even with this 1 fringe case I can list about a dozen other tournaments where drukari are winning vs similar freebooter lists. It’s not even close drukari are literally tearing up the meta right now with 70%+ win rates…, not orks… and this type of freebooter ork list has been out for 3 months and played in nearly every major tournament since and you know what faction has been winning most of those tournaments? Drukari….



I mean drukhari are a strong army. But they’re winning events by avoiding Orks. Or playing bad ork lists. They aren’t tearing up ork lists. Also they’re win percentage has dropped in the high 50’s low 60’s the last few months. Admech are the king of win percentage right now and largely one of the few armies that can use their regular build to beat Orks.

Anyway. People can argue I made a mistake. Or I left myself out there. Really I don’t care. But the ork player had already turn one or turn 2 crushed two other drukhari players who both had more guns and higher toughness vehicles than I. So I could have run out and hoped to pass an overwhelming number of saves and then make some charges and still get tabled by the way. Or I could hide and still get tabled. Or really do whatever and still get tabled. One of those choices would be over the fastest while presenting the highest chance of victory. So I took it.

Also if you think my list was built for turn one assaults you’re wrong. My list doesn’t do real turn one damage. It’s a counter play charge list built in incubi combat. Which by the way does nothing to ork vehicles.

It was a bad matchup. Likely the most lopsided game of 40K I’ve ever been involved in. And sadly speaks to a style of 40K I don’t particularly enjoy. Because the counter measures for me involve playing lists that are boring. But it is what it is.


That is largely not the point of the thread. The general argument here is that when lethality in the game has reached the level where a one-turn table is possible, youve shifted such a huge percentage of the game's skill expression to the list building/strategy side that it almost doesnt matter what decisions you make on the tabletop in a lot of matchups.

If the way you position your models on the table in a wargame can take their points return from ~5-10% to ~30-40% depending on range, cover, movement, maybe even rotation, then a player's skill is expressed by how they make those good situations happen.

If the way you position your models on the table is only ever 0% points return (out of range/cant see) or 50-60% if they can see+range at all, then everything basically just comes down to list building.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/10/28 12:00:42


"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
Made in no
Focused Fire Warrior






tneva82 wrote:
If it takes less than 3x points to delete unit game is too lethal as a rule of thumb.


Agreed. And this is a weakness with the 2000 pts format. Since HQ often are somewhere between 200 and 400 points, the real effect of going from 1500 to 2000 pts is increasing army size with about 40%. With the way warhammer works with cummulative shooting, not enough terrain to hide a larger army behind, more specialized units like lascannon spam, and exponetially increases the strenght and effect of buffs (since more units are receiving), it makes it easier to delete the opponents army.

Truth is, 40k is a shallow game, where re-rolls and rock-paper-scissors style armies are substitutes for real strategy.

I think a start would be for tournaments to play 1500 points armies, and a single batallion detatchment. The way multiple detatchment works in most tournaments we are pretty much at "grab whatever you'd like". Giving similar build - structure for armies, i.e. 2-3 hqs, 3-6 troops, and 0-3 HS, elites, and fast attacks, and 0-1 flier would remove some of the rock-paper-scissor effects we see today.

Just saying.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/10/28 12:36:11


Let the galaxy burn. 
   
Made in us
Daring Dark Eldar Raider Rider



CT

Normally I would agree that movement and tactics on the table are the number one pieces of victory. As long as your list is competent and you pick reasonable secondaries.

However in this matchup with the Orks. There were no correct choices for me to make. I was going to be tabled with nearly no interaction at all.

And that said my list had beaten 3+ flyer admech 3 rounds in a row at this event. Had beaten drukhari.

Tha shooting and durability of the ork list is on a very different level.

 
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






OrdoSean wrote:
Normally I would agree that movement and tactics on the table are the number one pieces of victory. As long as your list is competent and you pick reasonable secondaries.

However in this matchup with the Orks. There were no correct choices for me to make. I was going to be tabled with nearly no interaction at all.

And that said my list had beaten 3+ flyer admech 3 rounds in a row at this event. Had beaten drukhari.

Tha shooting and durability of the ork list is on a very different level.


Do you really think a competitive drukhari or admech list could not also remove nearly 2000pts of an enemy army in a single turn if they were given free and open access to that player's army to attack it? Because I play Drukhari and I feel REALLY confident I could basically entirely table an opposing army if you set me up 24" away on an empty board.

And that's not even to mention the less competitive army setups that are already just not present in the game at higher levels. Your average admech flyer list could quite easily put an opponent relying on such silly and outdated concepts as 'defending your units with high toughness and Sv rather than Invulns and to-hit mods' in the exact same situation the ork list put you in, just by taking a decent number of stratoraptors and laschickens. I'd hazard a guess that on a board without Obscuring terrain on it an admech list could probably take out 2500-3000pts of Astra Militarum vehicles.

"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
Made in it
Longtime Dakkanaut





I would be really curios about the results of a 1500 point tournament. I think that 2000 isn't really a good army size for 40K. Too slow and too much fat allowed.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut



London

Try and get the tourney scene to change though. GW would have to change first in their events. Tried to get people to do a tourney with less locally, but no its either 1000pt doubles or 2000 regular...
   
Made in us
Ancient Venerable Dark Angels Dreadnought





Forgetting the ability of planes for the moment, I personally think the Freebooter trait is completely out of whack. You kill a sacrificial unit and all of a sudden your entire army becomes 50% more effective in hitting their targets. Buggies, planes etc are pretty damn cheap for what firepower they deliver (and durability with ramshackle), but that is offset by mostly being BS5. Now the entire army hits on 4s? Yeah, we're going to see results like this.
My buddy picked up on this with the Ork Codex immediately and I played against it the week after the codex hit with my Dark Angels. My Ravenwing units were basically all eliminated Turn 1 with exception of Talon Master and Apothecary who had protection from nearby Deathwing units (I went second) and the only reason I was able to continue the game (but was always playing uphill in a losing battle) was because I had several Deathwing units that could tank a lot of the hits (much harder for him to get Freebooter trait working Turn 2+, but it didn't matter at that point).
My first thought on the matter was that the trait needed changing, it's just too good. maybe it should be an aura only...units within 6" of the one that killed an enemy unit get +1 to hit.
   
Made in us
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 bullyboy wrote:
Forgetting the ability of planes for the moment, I personally think the Freebooter trait is completely out of whack. You kill a sacrificial unit and all of a sudden your entire army becomes 50% more effective in hitting their targets. Buggies, planes etc are pretty damn cheap for what firepower they deliver (and durability with ramshackle), but that is offset by mostly being BS5. Now the entire army hits on 4s? Yeah, we're going to see results like this.
My buddy picked up on this with the Ork Codex immediately and I played against it the week after the codex hit with my Dark Angels. My Ravenwing units were basically all eliminated Turn 1 with exception of Talon Master and Apothecary who had protection from nearby Deathwing units (I went second) and the only reason I was able to continue the game (but was always playing uphill in a losing battle) was because I had several Deathwing units that could tank a lot of the hits (much harder for him to get Freebooter trait working Turn 2+, but it didn't matter at that point).
My first thought on the matter was that the trait needed changing, it's just too good. maybe it should be an aura only...units within 6" of the one that killed an enemy unit get +1 to hit.


Freebootas has literally existed very much close to current form since the 8th ed ork dex came out...I've been using it this entire time and it's never been an issue before. previously it was *technically* a 24-inch range aura around the unit that killed an enemy unit but 99% of the time just a tiny bit of tactical decision making and it was board-wide.

The overtuning of the vehicles people are taking it with is obviously the problem. squigbuggies basically doubled their damage and stayed at the same points cost.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/10/28 14:08:22


"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
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 the_scotsman wrote:
OrdoSean wrote:
Normally I would agree that movement and tactics on the table are the number one pieces of victory. As long as your list is competent and you pick reasonable secondaries.

However in this matchup with the Orks. There were no correct choices for me to make. I was going to be tabled with nearly no interaction at all.

And that said my list had beaten 3+ flyer admech 3 rounds in a row at this event. Had beaten drukhari.

Tha shooting and durability of the ork list is on a very different level.


Do you really think a competitive drukhari or admech list could not also remove nearly 2000pts of an enemy army in a single turn if they were given free and open access to that player's army to attack it? Because I play Drukhari and I feel REALLY confident I could basically entirely table an opposing army if you set me up 24" away on an empty board.

And that's not even to mention the less competitive army setups that are already just not present in the game at higher levels. Your average admech flyer list could quite easily put an opponent relying on such silly and outdated concepts as 'defending your units with high toughness and Sv rather than Invulns and to-hit mods' in the exact same situation the ork list put you in, just by taking a decent number of stratoraptors and laschickens. I'd hazard a guess that on a board without Obscuring terrain on it an admech list could probably take out 2500-3000pts of Astra Militarum vehicles.


Well seeing as I played this kind of scenario out in two games no. I played the dark angels death wing terminator list twice. And legitimately took my whole army minus maybe 200 points to kill 10 terminators. Which were 1/3 roughly of his army. Maybe 1/4. He had 30 terminators 6 blade guard and a few characters. So yeah most of my killing power killed 1/4 of his army. That seems like a reasonable rate of return.

Similarly in admech matches I ran my army up and he killed 4-5 venoms and maybe 1/3 of the contents. That seems a reasonable rate of loss for me as well.

 
   
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Take a Dakkajet.
8th edition:
18 shots, S6 AP-1. +1 to hit if they all target the same thing.

Today, first Speedwaagh turn, its 42 shots, S6, AP-2. Second turn its a more modest 36 shots (...) but still S6 AP-2.

Shooting say Intercessors with the Freebooter buff on both and you are doing 2.3 times as much damage in 9th as you were in 8th. You can say the Dakkajet wasn't exactly good before - but this is an absurd buff.

And comparable increases occur all through the 9th edition books, hence why almost every army is composed of glass.
   
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So lethality in 40K has gotten ridiculous, and it's questionable how suited the game is for competitive play.




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I mean we are still talking about a list of mainly bs4+ str 5/6 ap1/2 dam 1 with mostly 18-24in range rapid fire/Dakka weapons… this type of “bolter spam” isn’t exactly a problem for a lot of armies. Not to mention these types of freebooter lists have been around for 3 months already without much of a problem until today.

The reason Sean couldn’t engage was deployment and setup and bad flyer rules…
He took an assault list that couldn’t assault.
He was faced with
Row 1- flyers (can’t assault)
Row 2- buggies with flyers in front and a buggy row behind
Row 3- more buggies
All of which sandwiched between terrain and the board edges or out of movement range

His only real path was trying to squeeze around 3 Mek guns blocking the path to the left…

4 flyers with big bases you can’t normally assault is alot. This is part of the problem… the other being flyer bases blocking assault range. If I had to nerf something it would be to limit flyers to 1 per patrol, brigade, battalion detachment and remove the flyer detachment… and allow units to ignore flyer bases for movement and assault range. I mean the bases really shouldn’t prevent you from moving onto them.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/10/28 14:29:47


 
   
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gungo wrote:
I mean we are still talking about a list of mainly bs4+ str 5/6 ap1/2 dam 1 with mostly 18-24in range rapid fire/Dakka weapons… this type of “bolter spam” isn’t exactly a problem for a lot of armies. Not to mention these types of freebooter lists have been around for 3 months already without much of a problem until today.

The reason Sean couldn’t engage was deployment and setup and bad flyer rules…
He took an assault list that couldn’t assault.
He was faced with
Row 1- flyers (can’t assault)
Row 2- buggies with flyers in front and a buggy row behind
Row 3- more buggies
All of which sandwiched between terrain and the board edges or out of movement range

His only real path was trying to squeeze around 3 Mek guns blocking the path to the left…

4 flyers with big bases you can’t normally assault is alot. This is part of the problem… the other being flyer bases blocking assault range.


The new ramshackle rule is also amazing considering the most popular weapon profile is damage 2 to deal with marines and similar types.

Honestly the ork player could have put his 3 indirect buggies in the front. Told me he wouldn’t shoot me turn one and let me assault him kill those three buggies and pile into his army…. And still tabled me. Maybe by turn 3 in that case but still.

 
   
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He couldn’t fall back and shoot with the buggies as freebooter and this list only had 9 buggies. If you killed 3 and piled into 3 more you would have removed most of the buggies from combat. (Which they are fairly poor in melee anyway).

Fortunately a lot of weapons with dam 2 or higher is str 8 or higher to ignore ramshackle… but I agree it’s a nice ability on a bunch of low toughness 6 vehicles.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/10/28 14:40:54


 
   
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OrdoSean wrote:
 the_scotsman wrote:
OrdoSean wrote:
Normally I would agree that movement and tactics on the table are the number one pieces of victory. As long as your list is competent and you pick reasonable secondaries.

However in this matchup with the Orks. There were no correct choices for me to make. I was going to be tabled with nearly no interaction at all.

And that said my list had beaten 3+ flyer admech 3 rounds in a row at this event. Had beaten drukhari.

Tha shooting and durability of the ork list is on a very different level.


Do you really think a competitive drukhari or admech list could not also remove nearly 2000pts of an enemy army in a single turn if they were given free and open access to that player's army to attack it? Because I play Drukhari and I feel REALLY confident I could basically entirely table an opposing army if you set me up 24" away on an empty board.

And that's not even to mention the less competitive army setups that are already just not present in the game at higher levels. Your average admech flyer list could quite easily put an opponent relying on such silly and outdated concepts as 'defending your units with high toughness and Sv rather than Invulns and to-hit mods' in the exact same situation the ork list put you in, just by taking a decent number of stratoraptors and laschickens. I'd hazard a guess that on a board without Obscuring terrain on it an admech list could probably take out 2500-3000pts of Astra Militarum vehicles.


Well seeing as I played this kind of scenario out in two games no. I played the dark angels death wing terminator list twice. And legitimately took my whole army minus maybe 200 points to kill 10 terminators. Which were 1/3 roughly of his army. Maybe 1/4. He had 30 terminators 6 blade guard and a few characters. So yeah most of my killing power killed 1/4 of his army. That seems like a reasonable rate of return.

Similarly in admech matches I ran my army up and he killed 4-5 venoms and maybe 1/3 of the contents. That seems a reasonable rate of loss for me as well.


I think it's pretty safe to say that MOST armies do not have access to...what is it, T4 W3 sv2+ 5++ models that can only be wounded on 4+ for 38pts per model.

While killing 25% of an opposing army per turn might be acceptable for that ONE extreme durability-skew list its pretty disingenuous to suggest that that is a normal setup.

....and also its pretty funny that you bring up that extreme durability skew list and then note that you still got a 25% points return in what's supposed to be a 5-turn game

Is it the goal that every game should end in a tabling before the final turn? Is that good, healthy game design right there?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Tyel wrote:
Take a Dakkajet.
8th edition:
18 shots, S6 AP-1. +1 to hit if they all target the same thing.

Today, first Speedwaagh turn, its 42 shots, S6, AP-2. Second turn its a more modest 36 shots (...) but still S6 AP-2.

Shooting say Intercessors with the Freebooter buff on both and you are doing 2.3 times as much damage in 9th as you were in 8th. You can say the Dakkajet wasn't exactly good before - but this is an absurd buff.

And comparable increases occur all through the 9th edition books, hence why almost every army is composed of glass.


yeah man its almost like the increasing shots from 18 to 42 might be the problem here and not the freebootas trait.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/10/28 14:55:27


"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
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the_scotsman wrote:
a_typical_hero wrote:
I don't think that even under perfect conditions, one army should be able to wipe out 90% of another army.

Like Spoletta, I see the bigger issue here being the lack of available counterplay, with the high lethality taking the second place.

Both should be looked at, but the former is the more pressing issue.

What do you guys think? Would it help if flyers could not start the game on the board?


My personal opinion on flyers is that they should basically be a form of nearly-unassailable but unreliable fire support.

Make them flimsier in terms of wounds, tough and save, but give them back the old 'hit me on 6s unless youre a dedicated anti-air or another plane' rule, and instead of starting on the board they have to roll to see if they come on each turn, and then they just appear, anywhere on the battlefield they want to be.

then your opponent gets 1 turn to respond to them if they want to, and then theyre back in reserves rolling to see if they come on again, because theyre not actually moving around on the game board, theyre shooting by making strafing runs.

Huh, sounds exactly like the 4th edition flyer rules; weird, that.

Anyways,

This is an expression of bad game design, through and through, and this isn't the first time this has happened, either.

It's not once in a thousand games, it's twice in two major tournament Grand Finals (out of what, 24?). An opponent conceded in the other opponent's Turn 1 Shooting Phase because of ridiculous damage output that crippled their army beyond the ability to compete.

Yes, yes, there's lots to quibble about ("the first guy only lost the most critical 800 points of his army, had he not been tired he could've played on" / "it was the fault of the terrain/players/dogs/lunch caterers/TO, not game design!" / "GW is perfect in every way, so something ELSE must be the cause of this!" etc.) but, fundamentally, 9th edition isn't functioning that well.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/10/28 14:57:08


 
   
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 the_scotsman wrote:
OrdoSean wrote:
 the_scotsman wrote:
OrdoSean wrote:
Normally I would agree that movement and tactics on the table are the number one pieces of victory. As long as your list is competent and you pick reasonable secondaries.

However in this matchup with the Orks. There were no correct choices for me to make. I was going to be tabled with nearly no interaction at all.

And that said my list had beaten 3+ flyer admech 3 rounds in a row at this event. Had beaten drukhari.

Tha shooting and durability of the ork list is on a very different level.


Do you really think a competitive drukhari or admech list could not also remove nearly 2000pts of an enemy army in a single turn if they were given free and open access to that player's army to attack it? Because I play Drukhari and I feel REALLY confident I could basically entirely table an opposing army if you set me up 24" away on an empty board.

And that's not even to mention the less competitive army setups that are already just not present in the game at higher levels. Your average admech flyer list could quite easily put an opponent relying on such silly and outdated concepts as 'defending your units with high toughness and Sv rather than Invulns and to-hit mods' in the exact same situation the ork list put you in, just by taking a decent number of stratoraptors and laschickens. I'd hazard a guess that on a board without Obscuring terrain on it an admech list could probably take out 2500-3000pts of Astra Militarum vehicles.


Well seeing as I played this kind of scenario out in two games no. I played the dark angels death wing terminator list twice. And legitimately took my whole army minus maybe 200 points to kill 10 terminators. Which were 1/3 roughly of his army. Maybe 1/4. He had 30 terminators 6 blade guard and a few characters. So yeah most of my killing power killed 1/4 of his army. That seems like a reasonable rate of return.

Similarly in admech matches I ran my army up and he killed 4-5 venoms and maybe 1/3 of the contents. That seems a reasonable rate of loss for me as well.


I think it's pretty safe to say that MOST armies do not have access to...what is it, T4 W3 sv2+ 5++ models that can only be wounded on 4+ for 38pts per model.

While killing 25% of an opposing army per turn might be acceptable for that ONE extreme durability-skew list its pretty disingenuous to suggest that that is a normal setup.

....and also its pretty funny that you bring up that extreme durability skew list and then note that you still got a 25% points return in what's supposed to be a 5-turn game

Is it the goal that every game should end in a tabling before the final turn? Is that good, healthy game design right there?


Well in that army example I can’t kill anything turn one. Then I kill 1/4 on turn 2. Then he kills stuff then I kill 1/4 again then he kills stuff. Then I don’t kill 1/4. Then he kills stuff so by game end we both have sub 1/4 or 1/8 of our armies left yeah I’d say that’s pretty much how the game should go.

 
   
 
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