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Dive-Bombin' Fighta-Bomba Pilot






 Niiai wrote:
This is not about the sky is falling. Or 'crying about drukahri losing to orks' gungo puts it. At leats not me.

If the orks need a nerf, and I am not saying they do, how do you fix it? Point increases to balance for cealings means that floors get really low.

Picture the following senario: Freeboters in speedwhaaag becomes the premiere way to play orks. GW responds by increasing points on all shooting units to the point where it becomes balanced for these lists. Would this not put the units out of reach for cassual players who are not running freeboters. Going from BS5 to 4 seems like such a huge gap. (Also, this works in melee as well, right? Hitting on 2's.)


this is rock paper scissors edition 40k, the ork player got some good matchups and i think the semi finals game you are talking about above is the same player. A lot of people basically copy pasted sean nayden 's list (not a bad way to go, he is awesome and i generally like watching him play and especially when he explains his thinking, smart lad). I think you are right in that there had Sean played more conservatively he would have been wiped turn 2. That said the ork list would have been tabled by custodes and had a real uphill battle against a beefy space marine list as it did not have the tools for that.

TLDR version. dark eldar are paper, this ork list was sissors, and the ork player is very fortunate that all the rock lists are out of favor currently since the dominate admech and dark eldar lists are such a counter to them.

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Bergen

Rock paper scissors have always been part of many game systems, warhammer included. Dark Eldars have always cheated a bit, at least when I played them in 5th edition. With range, mobilaty, low T on vehicles and many invonerable saves high powered shots (like lascannon, or short ranged multimeltas) are worse vs them them vs the meta in genreal. Orks pump out so many bad to mid level qualaty of shots, and that is exatly what is good vs dark eldar. So it is cernatly more of a rock paper scissor senario then anything else. (I know very littel about admech except that the archaeopter strataraptor comes out very well when compared to it's contemporaries.)

As I said I do not know if orks a justefied for a nerf. And the strong clear narative that comes out of this one incident does not provide the whole picture. For me it is more about the design of having on clan increase it's damage output by almost 50% witch makes it hard to balance. As somebody pointed out this was not a problem in the old codex, so there is that. The lack of counterlay to flyers (hard to hide from etc) certanly also is a good observation from this thread. It just rarly comes up as so few of the codexes have good flyers. I think orks, admech and tyranid haridan are the only once who show up with some frequency.

   
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I do agree there has always been a certain amount of paper rock scissors in the game. I just feel that it is more pronounced than it has ever been before. Well at least since I started playing in late 4th/ transition to 5th.

As for the adding 50% to hits that freebootas do its good, but I personally think blood axes are better for his list against anything that is not Drukari so even in that sense Logan got some really good matchups to get to the top (mind you Logan played very well and 100% deserves accolades for brilliant play, I don't think many people could have generated that ork list to that level)

There is also some truth to flyers in general especially tyranid, admech and (i would argue to a lesser extent) orks. The reason the dakkajet is so good for freebootas is getting in a position to shoot the weakest unit your opponent has to try and trigger the BS4+. For other lists it is good but not a must take.

Post this win though with people factoring anti buggie into their lists (not hard to do) this ls it. I foresee it being a gatekeeper list that shows up and people need to build in an answer to. Ironically this means they will be worse off vs admech making them even more powerful.

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Big Mek in Kustom Dragster with Soopa-Gun





Nebraska, USA

Orks have always been somewhat anti-meta far as i can remember. The only reason they werent total gak in the past is because the way they played was so alien to everyone else that it wasnt really hard countered, even though it was technically easy to hardcounter.

Now, for once, orks hard counter someone else. As whats been pointed out its such an obvious tailored list and the drukari player goofed/bad lunk its painful.

That being said i do think the Squigbuggy is a little undercosted, but thats the only one. Dakkajets are pretty average when not freeboota, ive been using them as badmoonz for instance and unless i either roll hot and get an unusually high number of hits or my opponent IGNORES the plane, it usually ends up making its points in damage-soaking, not damage-dealing.

Also Freeboota trait is not exactly as it was in the past when it wasnt an issue. Its now global, in the past it was a 24" bubble sort of 'inverted aura' type thing. Plus, Speedwaaagh is kinda silly good imo, which just dogpiles the issues into one giant heap of problems.

Ork shooting units in the past were just a moderate amount of shots at AP0/1, with really just rokkits/KMBs being the only AP2+ and more than 1 damage, both were difficult to spam without touching forgeworld (yes, tankbustas are a thing, theyre also extremely high on the threat meter and are tissue paper so not really an easy thing to use). Now we have quite a few of random guns all over the buggies that are AP2 and/or 2+ damage AND freeboota is global AND speedwaagh gives +1 dakka shot and +1AP (for 2 turns).
The squigbuggy fires at AP3 2D for 2 turns. It just shreds things during the Speedwaagh even when NOT freeboota giving the smaller squiglauncha 4+ to hit.
Speedwaagh is more the issue than freeboota, imo.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/10/28 13:24:38


An ork with an idea tends to end with a bang.

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 Blackie wrote:
 Afrodactyl wrote:
 Blackie wrote:
Freeboota trait is hard to "fix" as it's a bonus that needs to be triggered and it's actually a gamble. In fact in small games or in mixed klan lists there are solid odds that the bonus is not triggered, while full Freeboota lists or mostly Freeboota lists may lack some punch in combat. Against armies that don't have MSU the trait is hard to trigger as well.

Easiest fix is to raise the points costs of those few shooty units that once spammed makes a Freeboota list (possibly) very powerful. Scrapjet, Squigbuggy and Dakkajet can, and will, go up a few points. Wazbom at 200 points is not cheap, let alone undercosted.

And if anything there's a significant lot of Drukhari stuff that needs points hikes with higher priority than ork most spammable units.

The trait is fine.


I agree with rukkatrukks and dakkajets going up a little. Scrapjets I'm 50/50 on because of all the buggies, the rukkatrukk is actually the "problem" one. And I agree that Wazboms are certainly not undercosted.

The guy even took Dragstas and KBBs, which people don't run because they're somewhere on the scale of meh to alright.

This seems to be a very heavily skewed list, tailor made to chew through Drukhari, being played well and with very good rolling. And Orks have been basically designed around skew for as long as I can remember.

Unfortunately for the Drukhari player, they were outplayed in deployment and then crippled when their risky play to get back into it failed and then rolled very poorly.

If Drukhari and Ad Mech are tier one armies at the moment, then Orks are tier two with a favourable Drukhari matchup at best. These skew lists have been all over the place for the last three months with no concern, and people are only losing their minds because of an Ork player having a great game and a Drukhari one having a bad one. These things happen and are an inherent risk of a game based around randomness.

I remember games last edition where losing most of my army turn one and the game being decided at the beginning of turn two was a fairly common occurrence, and people didn't do anything about it then. They just doubled down and tried to get rid of the rest of my list.


Exactly. The solution should aim to address the chance of spamming stuff rather than nerfing units: one flyer per detachment (and maybe even 0 for vanguards, outriders, spearheads) could be something but I'd go even further by removing squadrons from units that are made by 100ish points models. Koptas or mek gunz make sense as squadrons, tanks or buggies on bases that are almost imperial knight sized not so. So no more than 3x for each buggy could really help here. OP lists that spam buggies would be nerfed but those who just bring 1-3 of a specific kind of buggy won't be affected and a player could still bring up to 15 buggies.

The problem is a Freebooters list with tons of planes, tons of scrapjets and tons of squigbuggies. None of the those, the klan trait or the specific aforementioned units are a problem in any other kind of lists. So they really shouldn't nerf the klan or go too hard on the units. The combo should be addressed.

The list that won didn’t squadron… every Mek gun and buggy was a single unit squadron.. which means it only had 3 of each buggy anyway… and used several of the least effective buggies…

The issue came down to Sean rolled a 1 and other low rolls to advance and failed to lock his units in combat. PLUS the ork player using his large flyer bases in front plus rows of buggies squeezed into terrain that prevented Sean from getting into assault range…. In other words it was an assault list that couldn’t assault cause
Flyer row- can’t assault
Buggy row 1- can’t get in assault range due to flyer in front and terrain on side
Buggy row 2- can’t get into assault range due to buggies in front and back
Buggy row 3- can’t get into assault range due to buggies in front and back either having no space to deploy or out of movement range

So the only option Sean had were 3 solo unit Mek guns on the left that were blocking the only other open path to the ork deployment zone. He needed to make a long advance roll to bubble wrap the units so they couldn’t fall back and not kill them in combat to keep himself locked in combat on the orks turn so his units don’t get shot to death. He failed advance and the Mek guns fell back and his entire army was in rapid fire/Dakka max shot range.

Only option to fix this type of skew list is remove the aircraft detachment, limit aircraft to 1 per patrol, battalion, brigade. And allow opposing units to ignore flyer bases for movement and assault.

If the flyer bases didn’t prevent assault then the incubi would have assault range on the buggies/warbikes in front. This game was lost during table setup and deployment.. abusing bad flyer rules against an army the melted vs a lot of low strength low ap shooting. You guys act like str5/6 ap1/2 bs4+ 1 dam shooting is overpowered! Since when did the heavy bolter become the most feared weapon in game!!!

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/10/28 13:59:21


 
   
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 Vineheart01 wrote:
Orks have always been somewhat anti-meta far as i can remember. The only reason they werent total gak in the past is because the way they played was so alien to everyone else that it wasnt really hard countered, even though it was technically easy to hardcounter.

Now, for once, orks hard counter someone else. As whats been pointed out its such an obvious tailored list and the drukari player goofed/bad lunk its painful.

That being said i do think the Squigbuggy is a little undercosted, but thats the only one. Dakkajets are pretty average when not freeboota, ive been using them as badmoonz for instance and unless i either roll hot and get an unusually high number of hits or my opponent IGNORES the plane, it usually ends up making its points in damage-soaking, not damage-dealing.

Also Freeboota trait is not exactly as it was in the past when it wasnt an issue. Its now global, in the past it was a 24" bubble sort of 'inverted aura' type thing. Plus, Speedwaaagh is kinda silly good imo, which just dogpiles the issues into one giant heap of problems.

Ork shooting units in the past were just a moderate amount of shots at AP0/1, with really just rokkits/KMBs being the only AP2+ and more than 1 damage, both were difficult to spam without touching forgeworld (yes, tankbustas are a thing, theyre also extremely high on the threat meter and are tissue paper so not really an easy thing to use). Now we have quite a few of random guns all over the buggies that are AP2 and/or 2+ damage AND freeboota is global AND speedwaagh gives +1 dakka shot and +1AP (for 2 turns).
The squigbuggy fires at AP3 2D for 2 turns. It just shreds things during the Speedwaagh even when NOT freeboota giving the smaller squiglauncha 4+ to hit.
Speedwaagh is more the issue than freeboota, imo.
Speedwaagh is indeed a big part of it aswell. Same way giving space marines a (near) blanket -1 AP with Doctrines was an issue, doing the same to an Ork army is also a problem.
   
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Speaking of doctrines that makes me realize they didnt put the "this bonus is not cumulative" clause for the speedwaaagh.
Granted, orks do not have very many ways to improve AP as it is, but still surprised that clause isnt there.

Its funny in a silly sort of way when my badmoonz Squigbuggy during Speedwaagh rolls a 6 to wound, which is AP4 lol

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Italy

gungo wrote:


The issue came down to Sean rolled a 1 and other low rolls to advance and failed to lock his units in combat. PLUS the ork player using his large flyer bases in front plus rows of buggies squeezed into terrain that prevented Sean from getting into assault range…. In other words it was an assault list that couldn’t assault cause


It was skew list vs skew list. Multiple planes (4 I believe in that list?) are an issue indeed. But don't forget that drukhari have higher WR than Freeboota orks. With better rolls the drukhari player could have won the game, even by a large margin.

The combination of Freeboota and Speedwaaagh on 3x3 different buggies isn't game breaking.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/10/29 06:53:54



 
   
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I don't think anyone's pretending DE don't need to be nerfed too.

Ultimately its a hard one to call and I'm not sure points alone will suffice.

Because okay, you put the Ork list up - say 10-15 points for buggies, 20 points for flyers. Average list is say 150-200ish points more expensive.

But I then go through DE and make them 150-200ish points more expensive.

Well... don't you end up essentially where you are now? Everything kills everything else far too quickly?

I feel 40k is sort of approaching a strange situation where its balanced because *everything* is overpowered* - but equally this is sort of dispiriting for the game as it will make these blowout results more and more common.

*Maybe not Necrons.
   
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The real answer to the problem is just for GW to make space marines the most overpowered faction.. because when space marines have a 60%+ win rate and dominate most army lists people freak out substantially less..

The situation is boiled down to this. 3+ months the ork codex has been out. People have been plying various forms of freebooter buggy spam in all tournaments since…. 1 recent tournament occurs where a single ork list makes it into the finals with a 5-1 win record and gets 3 drukari match ups in a row. The top 8 had 6 drukari or ad mech players He hard counters the drukari list and blows out the final opponent and everyone freaks out…

Orks are now considered broken… nerf all thier buggies and planes!!!!

Mind you for the last 3 months orks were LUCKY to get a single player into the top 10 bracket and had a well balanced 50% win rate.

My hope is GW would only really change flyer rules to limit flyers to only 1 per patrol, brigade, battalion and remove flyer detachment and allow opposing armies to both move and assault on/over flyer bases as if they are not there. Maybe a slight 10-15 point point hike on squigbuggies and dakkajets… but the reality is I now expect a massive nerf due to the meta crowd freaking out and yes a lot of those freaking out are extremely influential.

This message was edited 6 times. Last update was at 2021/10/29 12:56:57


 
   
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I don't necessarily think its necessary to limit flyersper detachment though it might be a bandaid. I think being able to moe over and charge over flying bases (as well as ending up within an inch of them but not on top of them) is a better place to start. If that doesn't do it then sure start restricting flyers per detachment. one attempt at a time and have play testers maybe try both options and see which makes flyers seem less overpowered. having played some with the house rules on flyer bases moving over, charging through and ending within an inch of them it helps a lot.

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Bamberg / Erlangen

I would change the Freebooter trait to the following:

After you destroy a unit with shooting attacks, the next Freeboter unit you shoot with gets +1BS. This can't occur more than X times per turn.

And then you tune X to a reasonable level. Can be anything between 1 and infinite.

You could attach a CP cost for a second activation per turn for example.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/10/29 13:12:52


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Not gonna lie, if you roll perfectly across the board any army is "too deadly" on turn 1. I don't know what this player rolled, but I'm betting it was damn near the unreal end of the luck range.
   
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I am also from the opinion that there is nothing to balance.

My reason is, this is a defeatable list, in addition our power rating cleary puts us at mid tier.

Taking this in consideration the fact a mid army counters one of the big top ones so hard is actually good. Please hear me out, i might be new but the meta for drukari will shift to account for orks and this will open up holes for other armies to exploit returning some semblance of balance to the scene.

I am from the belief this is actually healthy for the game.

If GW manages to make another mid tier army into a hard counter to ad mech, but not top army we will close the loop and come full circle.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/10/29 13:29:08


 
   
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Forceride wrote:
My reason is, this is a defeatable list, in addition our power rating cleary puts us at mid tier.


I'm not convinced this is true.

The issue is that Orks *as a codex* are about mid-tier. If you had to run a highlander of all the units you'd have a pile of great and a pile of rubbish.
But I equally think that if you take out players "trying to make Boyz work", or running fluffy Dreadwaaagh lists etc the win rate rises. (Hence why I think its gone up the last few months - rather than seeing the new codex explosion then plateau other factions experienced.)

In terms of games at bigger tournaments over the last month Ork win percentage is only behind DE, Ad Mech and (increasingly obnoxious and I hope get cast back into oblivion) GK.
Which probably represents the fact that said happy-go-lucky players are not turning up to those events to drag the average down.
   
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The whole balancing/nerf ork codex freak out is annoying. Even goon hammer is screaming nerf orks… https://www.goonhammer.com/competitive-innovations-in-9th-many-magnificent-majors/

the nonsense about the obvious bias is he lists all the top 10 finishes over the last week tournaments. In just the majors tournaments they are primarily won by drukari or ad mech. With ad mech and drukari also filling up most of the top 10 rankings (7x grey knights and 6x adeptus soritas placing too). There is 1 ork win, 1x 3rd place finish and like 2 other freebooter lists on the bottom 10 of those 5 major tournaments and the dude is posting nonsense like
"Beyond that, it floods the board with vehicles and takes the opponent off the table in double time. You know this stuff. I am starting the feel the angry spirit of JONK overtaking me, so let’s congratulate on the podium finish and move on."

47 players listed in 5 tournaments 1 ork win, 1x 3rd place finish and 2 other in bottom 10 and the dude is crying about Orks. There are 22 admech/drukari lists out of 47 players who placed... and he's crying about orks!!! It's a freak out about 1 ork list winning 1 tournament and that ork list even went 8-1 losing a game during that same tournament…

This message was edited 6 times. Last update was at 2021/10/29 15:42:30


 
   
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gungo wrote:
The whole balancing/nerf ork codex freak out is annoying. Even goon hammer is screaming nerf orks… https://www.goonhammer.com/competitive-innovations-in-9th-many-magnificent-majors/

the nonsense about the obvious bias is he lists all the top 10 finishes over the last week tournaments. In just the majors tournaments they are primarily won by drukari or ad mech. With ad mech and drukari also filling up most of the top 10 rankings (7x grey knights and x iron hands placing too). There is 1 ork win, 1x 3rd place finish and like 2 other freebooter lists on the bottom 10 of those 5 major tournaments and the dude is posting nonsense like
"Beyond that, it floods the board with vehicles and takes the opponent off the table in double time. You know this stuff. I am starting the feel the angry spirit of JONK overtaking me, so let’s congratulate on the podium finish and move on."

47 players listed in 5 tournaments 1 ork win, 1x 3rd place finish and 2 other in bottom 10 and the dude is crying about Orks. There are 22 admech/drukari lists out of 47 players who placed... and he's crying about orks!!! It's a freak out about orks winning that is all.


Yeah, it's bizarre that they go "This is Fine" while Admech and Drukhari are still ruling the roost with their dominance in the meta but god forbid some other xenos makes a go at the top three once in a while and all of a sudden they're shook and shocked. I guess part of it is that they're numb to the Admech/Drukhari wins now and it triggers them to see someone shake up that meta occassionally.
   
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Bamberg / Erlangen

If you are a regular reader of these articles, you would know that Goonhammer called out nerfs for Dhrukari pre and post nerf as well as for AdMech.

They call for a limit to flyers in general as well.

The article even ends on a note how stale/bleak the competitive environment is at the moment.

Freebooter Speedwaaagh lists need a nerf. That Dhrukari and AdMech (and maybe GK) do so, too, do not make that statement incorrect. And it does not need to be repeated everytime.

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Forceride wrote:
I am also from the opinion that there is nothing to balance.

My reason is, this is a defeatable list, in addition our power rating cleary puts us at mid tier.

Taking this in consideration the fact a mid army counters one of the big top ones so hard is actually good. Please hear me out, i might be new but the meta for drukari will shift to account for orks and this will open up holes for other armies to exploit returning some semblance of balance to the scene.

I am from the belief this is actually healthy for the game.

If GW manages to make another mid tier army into a hard counter to ad mech, but not top army we will close the loop and come full circle.


I am tempted to be of that opinion too. If Dark Eldars have to change their most powerful lists to avoid being crushed by Orkz, it might actually help some other armies like Space Marines who in turn can keep the Orkz from running wild and thus making the game more balanced. I would be very prudent with buffs and nerfs to Orkz (or any other army) since about half the factions of 40K are yet to have their 9th edition codex and thus alter the balance some more, especially when one consider that amongst those factions are the Eldar and the Tau who were at the top of the competition in 6th and 7th edition (and frankly a good chunk of eighth for the Eldars), Imperial Guards who are a popular army that could bring a vehicle heavy meta that would certainly make current ork builds sweat a lot. I would also be careful with flyer nerfs. Tyranid codex is also coming and they often rely a lot on their flying creatures and I have a feeling that we will see more flying creatures from them.
   
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It’s more aircraft not all flyers…
Reduce the flyer slot to 1 per patrol, brigade, battalion and remove the flyer detachment.
And most importantly allow movement and assault through and even on aircraft bases as if they are not there.
The whole idea of blocking assault with a aircraft base is very gamey and abusable. At that point this 1 game in 1 tournament would have played out significantly diffrent with the drukari player able to assault the first 3x buggies kill them in 1 turn and pile into 3x more buggies lock them in combat and since they don’t have fall back and shoot they are effectively removed next turn(which they can’t do anyway with the other buggies behind them). And as long as the drukari are in combat they can’t be shot… and considering his entire list was mostly assault based and the ork player had 21 models only it would have been a lopsided in the drukari players favor… but ya know people seem More okay with that.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/10/29 16:30:56


 
   
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A) It's already been reduced from 3 flyers in a Brigade to 2, and 2 in all others.
B) There is no aircraft detachment, that was already removed
C) Movement through an aircraft base is already legal, you just cant end your movement on them or in engagement range because both that causes issues when you need to move the aircraft and also you CAN melee an aircraft so how do you determine what is engaged and what isnt actually engaged if theyre sitting on the base?
D) Lot of bases for flyers are quite scenic, being on top of them would be difficult if not impossible

Aircrafts blocking melee is not that big a deal as it almost never happens EXCEPT against this specific drukari T1 cheese crap. Aircraft movement limitations rarely allow them to actually get in the way consistently. Only reason it blocks T1 stuff is because they havnt moved yet.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/10/29 16:30:53


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 Vineheart01 wrote:
A) It's already been reduced from 3 flyers in a Brigade to 2, and 2 in all others.
B) There is no aircraft detachment, that was already removed
C) Movement through an aircraft base is already legal, you just cant end your movement on them or in engagement range because both that causes issues when you need to move the aircraft and also you CAN melee an aircraft so how do you determine what is engaged and what isnt actually engaged if theyre sitting on the base?
D) Lot of bases for flyers are quite scenic, being on top of them would be difficult if not impossible

Aircrafts blocking melee is not that big a deal as it almost never happens EXCEPT against this specific drukari T1 cheese crap. Aircraft movement limitations rarely allow them to actually get in the way consistently. Only reason it blocks T1 stuff is because they havnt moved yet.

A) reduce them further it’s an obvious problem (2 in a brigade is probably okay)
B) ok (I obviously haven’t used it in a long while)
C) engagement range should only be considered if the other model also has flyer keyword. The base should be ignored for all other purposes. I would even allow models on the base as they can be placed again once the model has moved
D) they shouldn’t be scenic.. just a flat clear plastic base…. Again this is gamey nonsense especially since scenic bases are already ignored in the rules.

I mean the imaginary force field wall of flyers is gamey nonsense anyway you look at it. “Hey guys let’s move right under the airplane up there”… can’t touch this… ya that’s broken..

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2021/10/29 16:41:40


 
   
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flat discs? you do realize that literally EVERY "fully painted" qualification includes proper basing detail right?
If that was seriously a thing then all the GW painted minis would be on boring bases too.

Hell even on this very forum if you post something nicely painted in the Showcase thread with a stock disc base they'll punt it to the progress one for WIPs because its not done yet.

There are things you must deal with because its a game of toy soldiers moving around. Yes ideally they shouldnt get in the way, they do and always will unless the positioning of the aircraft is so pointless it might as well not even have a movement stat and just statically float around the board.

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gungo wrote:
 Vineheart01 wrote:
A) It's already been reduced from 3 flyers in a Brigade to 2, and 2 in all others.
B) There is no aircraft detachment, that was already removed
C) Movement through an aircraft base is already legal, you just cant end your movement on them or in engagement range because both that causes issues when you need to move the aircraft and also you CAN melee an aircraft so how do you determine what is engaged and what isnt actually engaged if theyre sitting on the base?
D) Lot of bases for flyers are quite scenic, being on top of them would be difficult if not impossible

Aircrafts blocking melee is not that big a deal as it almost never happens EXCEPT against this specific drukari T1 cheese crap. Aircraft movement limitations rarely allow them to actually get in the way consistently. Only reason it blocks T1 stuff is because they havnt moved yet.

A) reduce them further it’s an obvious problem (2 in a brigade is probably okay)
B) ok (I obviously haven’t used it in a long while)
C) engagement range should only be considered if the other model also has flyer keyword. The base should be ignored for all other purposes. I would even allow models on the base as they can be placed again once the model has moved
D) they shouldn’t be scenic.. just a flat clear plastic base…. Again this is gamey nonsense especially since scenic bases are already ignored in the rules.

I mean the imaginary force field wall of flyers is gamey nonsense anyway you look at it. “Hey guys let’s move right under the airplane up there”… can’t touch this… ya that’s broken..


I don't see why i shouldn't base my flyer to match the rest of my army. no reason to leave it black plastic with a clear stem coming out of it. blank bases look so boring. i would be against any rules allowing models to actually be on top of a flying base as that would complicate the movement phase moving models to move the flyer. i do however think it should be ok to end in engagement range of said flyer since in the abstract there is nothing on the ground but in the real world there is so a decent compromise.

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 Vineheart01 wrote:
flat discs? you do realize that literally EVERY "fully painted" qualification includes proper basing detail right?
If that was seriously a thing then all the GW painted minis would be on boring bases too.

Hell even on this very forum if you post something nicely painted in the Showcase thread with a stock disc base they'll punt it to the progress one for WIPs because its not done yet.

There are things you must deal with because its a game of toy soldiers moving around. Yes ideally they shouldnt get in the way, they do and always will unless the positioning of the aircraft is so pointless it might as well not even have a movement stat and just statically float around the board.

I mean I’m not talking about every base just aircraft bases which already come in flat clear plastic… and are NOT part of the fully painted rules guidelines.
Scenic bases are already ignored in the rules…
And while I agree third party resin decorated bases look cooler it’s obviously being abused. I mean in certain situations it will be slightly annoying to move a model so I can move my 1-2 aircraft in a game but I’m already doing that with models and scenery where appropriate. So why again should aircraft be allowed to make the game more abusable? Rule of cool?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/10/29 17:12:35


 
   
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No they dont.

You are thinking flyer bases, which are used by things like eldar tanks or jetbikes.

Aircrafts all use an oval base that other than the giant post you stick on it look exactly like normal bases.
There is a BIG difference between flyer and aircraft. No aircraft has a clear-circle base, in fact other than Deffkoptas (which now dont use them) i dont know of any flying model that the clear base wasnt way smaller than the model in the first place. And also didnt raise them high enough to allow you to go under them.

An ork with an idea tends to end with a bang.

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I’m sorry the big Giant T stand is clear the base is a flat oval black base..
Not the old fashion small plastic round w a clear stick which broke all the time.

Regardless my point still stands these bases should NOT block engagement range and restrict movement by preventing units from moving on them.
   
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You are no longer prevented from moving on them, you just can not end your turn on topp of it.

Having 4 flyers certanly makes that easier to block with then if you have 1 or 2.

   
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That’s what I said “ON THEM” they can’t End thier move ON them plus preventing engagement range by being placed in front or moving a unit behind them.

You know what I’m saying you’re just arguing semantical nonsense.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/10/29 18:39:54


 
   
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Just to kind of tie some threads together here, I think there are few things to state:

1. The Drukhari list in the Socal finals was absolutly a Skew list that in almost any cases would lose to Orks. The list is clearly designed to beat just about anything else, but would have almost no chance beating the buggie list
2. This does not mean that the Ork Buggie List is balanced. It's not, and it's pretty clear that Dakka Jets and Squig Buggies (Likely scrapjets) need to have points adjustments. The Freebootaz trait is complicating things
3. Orks have won several events, and won several more this weekend. There are certain aspects that need to be nerfed.
4. This does not mean that Ad Mech and Drukhari are okay. It's been pretty clear they need to be nerfed again as well.
5. GK will probably need to catch a small nerf as well, but nothing on the scale of Orks, Drukhari and Ad Mech.

It's pretty simple. Orks, Ad mech and Drukhari are all a serious issue right now, and dominating the Meta with GK. It's probably at the worst state it's been at in all of 9th, and I think is probably worse than the Casteallan and Iron hands nonsense at this point. These things need to be fixed.

As for Goonhammer, they have been very consently calling for more Ad Mech and Drukhari nerfs. Not sure if someone just cherry picked some articles to act like they don't think those two are a problem, a long with Orks.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/10/29 19:02:32


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