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Made in gb
Leader of the Sept







Coming at it from another perspective, making it heavy makes it harder to hit when moving. This seems reasonable when trying to hit something over open sights with a slow firing weapon while running about. By comparison one could opine that ork movement makes little difference to rapid fire weapons like heavy shootas as they just create a largely unaimed wall of lead whether they are moving or not.

Now, how that interacts with how ork armies are chosen and how units move and fire in the tabletop is a different matter, but In isolation, I think making single shot weapons less effective on the move seems reasonable.

Please excuse any spelling errors. I use a tablet frequently and software keyboards are a pain!

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Terminators, in the lore, were good Heavy Weapons platforms and had Relentless up until 7th edition.
I can't really speak for many chapters, but the GK got slightly improved heavy weapons and they are still bad because of the -1.
   
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Gone-to-ground in the craters of Coventry

If Centurions get a special rule like Relentless, Terminators should.
Terminator armour is more integrated than a Centurion's armoured frame.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/11/12 12:29:38


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 vict0988 wrote:
 _SeeD_ wrote:
All Terminators should HAVE RELENTLESS!

Why?


If you read the "Terminator Armour" entry in the Space Marine Codex it specifically states that Terminator armor is much heavier then normal power armor to provide a stable platform for firing heavy weapons.

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St. George, UT

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
No, I understand you. I just don't agree with the principal. You don't see a Stompa's weapons being all assault just because it's an Ork unit that would love to get into melee.
Nor Mek Gunz, or Lootas. Doesn't change the fundamental aspects of the army. If anything, the exceptions prove the rule.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Certainly Bad Moons don't fit the statement "they race into combat with wild abandon".
At the end of the day, Orks are Orks. The majority of their Kulture or unit eccentricities come to the fore with the more unique units than they do with the hordes of Slugga or Choppa boyz.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Just because you want to enforce one archetype on an entire race just so certain weapons fit that archetype doesn't feel right to me at all.
That 'certain weapon' has fit within that archetype of quite some time. This is a recent change that breaks that. Someone already brought up Tyranid 'heavy' weapons, and the same would apply to them if the Heavy Venom Cannon suddenly became a Heavy weapon.

 Insectum7 wrote:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but the Loota guns have historically been Heavy. The big guns in the Boys units (aka the units that close with the enemy) were Assault.
And Lootas are looked on as kinda weird by the rest of the Orks that fight along side them. And another stationary gun unit, Mek Gunz, are crewed by Gretchin because the Orks see such tasks as beneath them.

This is why assault weapons for Ork mobs made sense. It fit with who they are.


I'm not going to say your wrong, but this is old hat for GW. One edition givith, another takith away. For no real reason other than to sell a different model. To use your Ork analogy and the love of all things assault. The switch from 3rd codex to 4th edition codex saw the removal of probably the most iconic assault weapon ever. The basic burna or combi scorcha in any basic squad. If there ever was an assault weapon those are them. Add to it the removal of easy to get KKFs, and you remove most of the built in protection needed to get your boys into assault. No wonder bikes, lootas, and Mek guns were popular. One had built in protection, and the others shoot from long range, even if not super great.

GW had new models to move, thus things changed to make it happen. Do not be surprised if in the up coming months a new model comes out that greatly takes advantage of relentless/not relentless issues of the OP.

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Made in de
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There are/were two design philosophies considering heavy weapons in 40K:

A: Every faction apart from Tyranids & Necrons use mostly the same weapons (melee/ranged) with all of their advantages and disadvantages. However factions also had access to a few unique wargear items to differentiate armies (e.g: Shokk Attack Gun, Monofilament Webber, etc.). This was how stuff worked during 2nd.

B: Every faction has their own interpretation of basic Imperial weaponry (melee/ranged) which can be carried by an infantry grunt model (e.g: Shoota, Slugga, etc,). Some people may think it is great for fleshing out a faction´s culture/fluff but by doing this it just created an unnecessary bloat in the weapons list of 40K. That´s the way the cookie crumbles since 3rd.


In addition to that Orks were also overhauled from the transition of 2nd to 3rd. Gone were the warlike "Paul Bonner" Orks which were replaced by aggressive gorilla-shaped greenskins. The former were equally happy blasting at the enemy with bolters in cover thanks to BS3 as well as closing range with bolt pistol & chainsword. Stuff was simple and it worked. However the latter Orks can no longer apply a formidable gunline like the Orks from 2nd due to BS2 and the change of turning ALL their ranged wargear into crappy weaponry with poor overall stats. You can no longer sit comfortably in cover and use a missile launcher because you are forced to use a rokkit launcher instead which has VERY poor range. Modern Orks are therefore cursed to forever close the distance to the enemy to be most effective whereas in the past they had a choice.

GW realized that design mistake very late by introducing the Dakka rule forcing Ork players to waste time with rerolling ranged attacks. So instead of giving Orks BS3 back they just piled on additional bloat to make the game even more unattractive. And one last thing: Forcing a gorilla-Ork to use a crappy rokkit launcher which he no longer is able to use while moving is borderline stupid because it mixes both design philosophies creating an undesirable outcome.



This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/11/17 15:46:24


 
   
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How about we stop giving stuff to Space Marines, as a general rule?
   
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 Insectum7 wrote:
 the_scotsman wrote:
 vict0988 wrote:
 _SeeD_ wrote:
All Terminators should HAVE RELENTLESS!

Why?


Yeah, it doesn't seem like theyre that much stronger than regular power armor . . .

Being stronger and a more stable firing platform has been a thing with Terminators since their inception all the way up through 7th edition, where they still had Relentless. For 20+ years of the game, Terminators were able to freely move and fire Heavy Weapons when basically everybody else flat-couldn't, or only was able to Snap Fire fishing for 6s. 8th+ has totally eroded that difference.


I agree, but they'll probably regain that at some point and people will say " GW listens ! "
   
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Hankovitch wrote:
How about we stop giving stuff to Space Marines, as a general rule?


right, because they are just tearing up the competitive scene!!
Now, if you meant models...sure, I can go with that, but rules require little overall effort.

Personally, I'd prefer to see all terminators get perma transhuman like the Deathwing (coming from a Dark Angel player). No reason DW should exclusively have it, and it actually makes terminators feel like terminators for the first time in many editions.
   
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 bullyboy wrote:
Hankovitch wrote:
How about we stop giving stuff to Space Marines, as a general rule?


right, because they are just tearing up the competitive scene!!
Now, if you meant models...sure, I can go with that, but rules require little overall effort.

Considerably more effort than Genestealer Cults, Tau, Craftworld Eldar, and Imperial Guard have gotten for the last two years.

I don't really know or care whether the OP's thesis is justified; taken in a vacuum, it probably is. But at this point... I want the Space Marines to go sit in the cheap seats for a long, long time. I cannot muster any enthusiasm for the argument that "here's one Space Marine unit that isn't getting enough new shiny things," being shouted from a hilltop of shoveled-out content. feth 'em. GSC don't have a single good datasheet in their entire book.

This has been my rant. You may now resume your regularly scheduled fan enthusiasm.
   
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Except GSC are getting a new book next year (as well as Tau), and Eldar are expecting a massive overhaul in 2022 (which has me excited).
Marines not getting models is fine, but seeing terminators on the table again (mostly Deathwing) is a sight that hasn't been seen in 40k for quite a while. Can't help marine players being nostalgic about classic models.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/11/30 03:05:53


 
   
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Space Marine armies don't use terminators much.
   
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 _SeeD_ wrote:
Space Marine armies don't use terminators much.

Dark Angels do, and others would if had similar rules. Can be annoying for opponent at times though.
   
Made in us
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Somerdale, NJ, USA

PREACH! ALL TERMINATORS SHOULD HAVE RELENTLESS!

As I've said before, it specifically states it in their fluff blurb in the codex, something like: 'stable platform for firing heavy weapons' !!!!!1!11!!!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 _SeeD_ wrote:
Space Marine armies don't use terminators much.



Grey Knights would disagree also.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/12/01 13:40:38


"The only problem with your genepool is that there wasn't a lifeguard on duty to prevent you from swimming."

"You either die a Morty, or you live long enough to see yourself become a Rick."

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... and Death Guard.

Turns out that durable terminators with decent weaponry actually is a concept that can work.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/12/01 16:40:12


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 TheBestBucketHead wrote:
I could be wrong, but the fact that Grey Knight Terminators can wear not only storm bolters, but Psicannons and Psilencers on their wrists shows how strong Terminator armor is, as those are heavy weapons their power armored brothers need to use two hands for.


random fluff bunny (me) lore insert here (as an aside i do think termies should have relentless) but GK weaponry and armor can't be compared to anything a normal astartes chapter uses. Their baseline power armor and what goes into the quality to it would make any captain / chapter master in relic armor jealous. Their terminator armor has enough sacred ungents/oils and more importantly specialized servos and motors that in terminator armor a GK (again fluffwise) is able to move as freely as they can in power armor while benefiting from strength increases beyond normal terminator plate. authors really like hammering that point in all the time but its really rarely put in rules on the tabletop.

All that is to say Gk should probably have even better stats than baseline space marines, but that is another discussion altogether.

That said it is wierd that GW took away relentless from normal terminators, the only thing i can think of is that was in the early days of "maybe we can squat normal marines to sell more primaris" before "oh our community would hate us lets not do that" and nobody bothered to give them the rule back as an oversight.

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 Lord Clinto wrote:


Grey Knights would disagree also.


As a grey knight specialist, no. The meta here is DKs and Interceptors. Terminators are considered anathematic for their cost and even though I've gone to painful lengths to make a Terminator unit work competitively, it's just all storm bolters.
Psycannons and Psilencers are very bad because of the -1.

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2021/12/06 06:44:17


 
   
 
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