Switch Theme:

All Terminators should HAVE RELENTLESS!  [RSS] Share on facebook Share on Twitter Submit to Reddit
»
Author Message
Advert


Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
  • No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
  • Times and dates in your local timezone.
  • Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
  • Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
  • Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.




Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut





What are we even doing here?
   
Made in au
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

Well of course they should, but simple rules that you can apply across a broad spectrum of similar units aren't something GW does anymore.

Everything's gotta be 'bespoke'.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/11/10 10:13:20


Industrial Insanity - My Terrain Blog
"GW really needs to understand 'Less is more' when it comes to AoS." - Wha-Mu-077

 
   
Made in dk
Loyal Necron Lychguard






 _SeeD_ wrote:
All Terminators should HAVE RELENTLESS!

Why?
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






 vict0988 wrote:
 _SeeD_ wrote:
All Terminators should HAVE RELENTLESS!

Why?


Yeah, it doesn't seem like theyre that much stronger than regular power armor, given that models with regular power armor can also wield storm shields, thunder hammers, storm bolters, power fists, etc.

Terminators not getting to move and fire heavy without penalty is very far from the list of things that make the least sense about 40k for me atm. It just seems like "its a space mawine, so it should be stwoooong!" complaint #5,421,198, right next to 'no human model should EVER be allowed to kill a space marine model in close combat!!!"

"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
Made in us
Paramount Plague Censer Bearer





I could be wrong, but the fact that Grey Knight Terminators can wear not only storm bolters, but Psicannons and Psilencers on their wrists shows how strong Terminator armor is, as those are heavy weapons their power armored brothers need to use two hands for.

‘What Lorgar’s fanatics have not seen is that these gods are nothing compared to the power and the majesty of the Machine-God. Already, members of our growing cult are using the grace of the Omnissiah – the true Omnissiah, not Terra’s false prophet – to harness the might of the warp. Geller fields, warp missiles, void shields, all these things you are familiar with. But their underlying principles can be turned to so much more. Through novel exploitations of these technologies we will gain mastery first over the energies of the empyrean, then over the lesser entities, until finally the very gods themselves will bend the knee and recognise the supremacy of the Machine-God"
- Heretek Ardim Protos in Titandeath by Guy Haley 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





Biloxi, MS USA

 the_scotsman wrote:
 vict0988 wrote:
 _SeeD_ wrote:
All Terminators should HAVE RELENTLESS!

Why?


Yeah, it doesn't seem like theyre that much stronger than regular power armor, given that models with regular power armor can also wield storm shields, thunder hammers, storm bolters, power fists, etc.

Terminators not getting to move and fire heavy without penalty is very far from the list of things that make the least sense about 40k for me atm. It just seems like "its a space mawine, so it should be stwoooong!" complaint #5,421,198, right next to 'no human model should EVER be allowed to kill a space marine model in close combat!!!"


They probably think that because Terminators have been able to do it for more editions than they couldn't.

You know you're really doing something when you can make strangers hate you over the Internet. - Mauleed
Just remember folks. Panic. Panic all the time. It's the only way to survive, other than just being mindful, of course-but geez, that's so friggin' boring. - Aegis Grimm
Hallowed is the All Pie
The Before Times: A Place That Celebrates The World That Was 
   
Made in ca
Dour Wolf Priest with Iron Wolf Amulet






Canada

 TheBestBucketHead wrote:
I could be wrong, but the fact that Grey Knight Terminators can wear not only storm bolters, but Psicannons and Psilencers on their wrists shows how strong Terminator armor is, as those are heavy weapons their power armored brothers need to use two hands for.

Termies can also get assault cannons and shoulder-mounted missile launchers so it wouldn't be out of the question.

   
Made in de
Ork Admiral Kroozin Da Kosmos on Da Hulk






 TheBestBucketHead wrote:
I could be wrong, but the fact that Grey Knight Terminators can wear not only storm bolters, but Psicannons and Psilencers on their wrists shows how strong Terminator armor is, as those are heavy weapons their power armored brothers need to use two hands for.


Orks nobz can fire rokkits with one hand and still get penalties for shooting them after moving. It's not about holding the weapon, it's about aiming on the move.

7 Ork facts people always get wrong:
Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other.
A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot.
Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests.
Orks do not think that purple makes them harder to see. They do think that camouflage does however, without knowing why.
Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor.
Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers.
Orks do not have the power of believe. 
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare






 the_scotsman wrote:
 vict0988 wrote:
 _SeeD_ wrote:
All Terminators should HAVE RELENTLESS!

Why?


Yeah, it doesn't seem like theyre that much stronger than regular power armor . . .

Being stronger and a more stable firing platform has been a thing with Terminators since their inception all the way up through 7th edition, where they still had Relentless. For 20+ years of the game, Terminators were able to freely move and fire Heavy Weapons when basically everybody else flat-couldn't, or only was able to Snap Fire fishing for 6s. 8th+ has totally eroded that difference.

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





They can go ham with their bolters, which I think is distinction enough.
   
Made in gb
Lord of the Fleet






London

They've had Relentless for as long as I can remember, and I started in 4th. I don't get where everyone's getting this idea that they've never had it and it's just OP trying to make super-duper 1000% Marines.
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare






 Daedalus81 wrote:
They can go ham with their bolters, which I think is distinction enough.
That's certainly nice, but still not "the Terminator way". In fact it's rather incongruous that they count as standing still with their Storm Bolters but not their Heavy. Really, a +1 to hit with the Heavy is gonna kill you?

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
Made in us
Stabbin' Skarboy





 Jidmah wrote:
 TheBestBucketHead wrote:
I could be wrong, but the fact that Grey Knight Terminators can wear not only storm bolters, but Psicannons and Psilencers on their wrists shows how strong Terminator armor is, as those are heavy weapons their power armored brothers need to use two hands for.


Orks nobz can fire rokkits with one hand and still get penalties for shooting them after moving. It's not about holding the weapon, it's about aiming on the move.


To be fair, Rokkits shouldn’t be heavy lol, idk why they did that.

"Us Blood Axes hav lernt' a lot from da humies. How best ta kill 'em, fer example."
— Korporal Snagbrat of the Dreadblade Kommandos 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





 Insectum7 wrote:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
They can go ham with their bolters, which I think is distinction enough.
That's certainly nice, but still not "the Terminator way". In fact it's rather incongruous that they count as standing still with their Storm Bolters but not their Heavy. Really, a +1 to hit with the Heavy is gonna kill you?


No, but then you'd have people complaining that gravis doesn't have relentless.
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare






 Daedalus81 wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
They can go ham with their bolters, which I think is distinction enough.
That's certainly nice, but still not "the Terminator way". In fact it's rather incongruous that they count as standing still with their Storm Bolters but not their Heavy. Really, a +1 to hit with the Heavy is gonna kill you?


No, but then you'd have people complaining that gravis doesn't have relentless.
TUBAD!

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
Made in us
Warp-Screaming Noise Marine




Gravis is completely new to the game. We can cross that bridge when we get there. I just love the way a reaper autocannon looks on my termis and anything to make that thing suck less is a-ok in my book

Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before. -Kurt Vonnegut 
   
Made in dk
Loyal Necron Lychguard






macluvin wrote:
Gravis is completely new to the game. We can cross that bridge when we get there. I just love the way a reaper autocannon looks on my termis and anything to make that thing suck less is a-ok in my book

Like reducing pts costs?
   
Made in us
Warp-Screaming Noise Marine




The thing costs 5 points. Actually in its current form it probably could conceivably be free and it would still not quite be an autoinclude... paying 5 points for a combiplasma because of the terminators move and shoot penalty for the reaper makes it objectively worse than the combiplasma.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
If the shots were d2 then I would argue it’s worth at least 10 points. Easily. And bring it in line with the heavy bolter and autocannon...

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/11/10 17:07:05


Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before. -Kurt Vonnegut 
   
Made in au
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

 Jidmah wrote:
Orks nobz can fire rokkits with one hand and still get penalties for shooting them after moving. It's not about holding the weapon, it's about aiming on the move.
A Nob firing a Rokkit is a damn-sight different to a Terminator firing a cyclone. And, on top of that, up until a few months ago, a Nob could make a normal move and fire that same Rokkit with zero penalty.

GW changed the Rokkit to heavy due to a fundamental misunderstanding of how Orks are meant to function, much like how they don't understand how Guard are meant to be structured.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/11/11 01:40:39


Industrial Insanity - My Terrain Blog
"GW really needs to understand 'Less is more' when it comes to AoS." - Wha-Mu-077

 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





 H.B.M.C. wrote:
GW changed the Rokkit to heavy due to a fundamental misunderstanding of how Orks are meant to function, much like how they don't understand how Guard are meant to be structured.



Eh. Before a Nob hit with a rokkit 33% of the time. Now they hit with a rokkit 16 to 50% of the time - the average, of course, being 33%.
   
Made in au
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Eh. Before a Nob hit with a rokkit 33% of the time. Now they hit with a rokkit 16 to 50% of the time - the average, of course, being 33%.
I know you think that posting a bunch of maths solves everything, but in doing so you so often miss the points being made. This isn't about average damage or hit rates or percentages or anything else you always seem to cling to.

It is, as I stated already, about a fundamental misunderstanding of the Orks as a race, and how the Ork race is represented via rules. Orks are a mobile army, they race into combat with wild abandon. As such the majority of their weaponry, especially the ones carried by big mobs of Boyz swarming forward, should reflect that kind of combat doctrine (as much as Orks have 'doctrine', that is). Having Rokkits as assault weapons fit that paradigm. Having Rokkits as heavy weapons goes against that on a conceptual level, as the idea of the Orks stopping to more carefully shoot their sticks with missiles attached seems incongruous to their attitude towards combat.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/11/11 02:49:48


Industrial Insanity - My Terrain Blog
"GW really needs to understand 'Less is more' when it comes to AoS." - Wha-Mu-077

 
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare






^+1

It's the same reason why Tyranid "Heavy" weapons actually being classified as Assault makes sense.


And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





 H.B.M.C. wrote:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
Eh. Before a Nob hit with a rokkit 33% of the time. Now they hit with a rokkit 16 to 50% of the time - the average, of course, being 33%.
I know you think that posting a bunch of maths solves everything, but in doing so you so often miss the points being made. This isn't about average damage or hit rates or percentages or anything else you always seem to cling to.

It is, as I stated already, about a fundamental misunderstanding of the Orks as a race, and how to represent them via rules. Orks are a mobile army, they race into combat with wild abandon. As such the majority of their weaponry, especially the ones carried by big mobs of Boyz swarming forward, should reflect that kind of combat doctrine (as much as Orks have 'doctrine', that is). Having Rokkits as assault weapons fit that paradigm. Having Rokkits as heavy weapons goes against that on a conceptual level, as the idea of the Orks stopping to more carefully shoot their sticks with missiles attached seems incongruous to their attitude towards combat.


Sure, but that shouldn't be an absolute obstacle to how rules get written. The effect is virtually no different for this particular scenario so it winds up feeling like splitting hairs for no real reason.
   
Made in au
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Sure, but that shouldn't be an absolute obstacle to how rules get written.
Who said it was an obstacle? Why make the change at all?

 Daedalus81 wrote:
The effect is virtually no different for this particular scenario so it winds up feeling like splitting hairs for no real reason.
The difference it makes on a purely mathematical perspective is irrelevant. I just covered that, and yet you bring it up again either because you didn't understand me or because you refuse to let go of your death-grip on precious numbers!

It's about the methodology of marrying the background material to the practical in-game material. Not so much fluff vs crunch, but more how the two can be one and the same.

Industrial Insanity - My Terrain Blog
"GW really needs to understand 'Less is more' when it comes to AoS." - Wha-Mu-077

 
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare






 Daedalus81 wrote:
 H.B.M.C. wrote:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
Eh. Before a Nob hit with a rokkit 33% of the time. Now they hit with a rokkit 16 to 50% of the time - the average, of course, being 33%.
I know you think that posting a bunch of maths solves everything, but in doing so you so often miss the points being made. This isn't about average damage or hit rates or percentages or anything else you always seem to cling to.

It is, as I stated already, about a fundamental misunderstanding of the Orks as a race, and how to represent them via rules. Orks are a mobile army, they race into combat with wild abandon. As such the majority of their weaponry, especially the ones carried by big mobs of Boyz swarming forward, should reflect that kind of combat doctrine (as much as Orks have 'doctrine', that is). Having Rokkits as assault weapons fit that paradigm. Having Rokkits as heavy weapons goes against that on a conceptual level, as the idea of the Orks stopping to more carefully shoot their sticks with missiles attached seems incongruous to their attitude towards combat.


Sure, but that shouldn't be an absolute obstacle to how rules get written. The effect is virtually no different for this particular scenario so it winds up feeling like splitting hairs for no real reason.
Incentives towards unit behavior aren't meaningless, since unit behavior is fundamental to the character/role of a model.

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
Made in us
Master Engineer with a Brace of Pistols





washington state USA

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Well of course they should, but simple rules that you can apply across a broad spectrum of similar units aren't something GW does anymore.

Everything's gotta be 'bespoke'.


sshhh

You know USRs are forbidden now.....and my terminators do have relentless, so do my bikes, and my dreadnoughts....because i still play 5th edition, our grimdark archeotech is better than yours.






GAMES-DUST1947/infinity/B5 wars/epic 40K/5th ed 40K/victory at sea/warmachine/battle tactics/monpoc/battletech/battlefleet gothic/castles in the sky,/heavy gear 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





 H.B.M.C. wrote:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
Sure, but that shouldn't be an absolute obstacle to how rules get written.
Who said it was an obstacle? Why make the change at all?

 Daedalus81 wrote:
The effect is virtually no different for this particular scenario so it winds up feeling like splitting hairs for no real reason.
The difference it makes on a purely mathematical perspective is irrelevant. I just covered that, and yet you bring it up again either because you didn't understand me or because you refuse to let go of your death-grip on precious numbers!

It's about the methodology of marrying the background material to the practical in-game material. Not so much fluff vs crunch, but more how the two can be one and the same.


No, I understand you. I just don't agree with the principal. You don't see a Stompa's weapons being all assault just because it's an Ork unit that would love to get into melee.

Certainly Bad Moons don't fit the statement "they race into combat with wild abandon".

Just because you want to enforce one archetype on an entire race just so certain weapons fit that archetype doesn't feel right to me at all.
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare






Correct me if I'm wrong, but the Loota guns have historically been Heavy. The big guns in the Boys units (aka the units that close with the enemy) were Assault.

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





Biloxi, MS USA

 Insectum7 wrote:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but the Loota guns have historically been Heavy.


Since they've gotten models, yes. Once upon a time, though, they literally just stole another unit's weapon options.

You know you're really doing something when you can make strangers hate you over the Internet. - Mauleed
Just remember folks. Panic. Panic all the time. It's the only way to survive, other than just being mindful, of course-but geez, that's so friggin' boring. - Aegis Grimm
Hallowed is the All Pie
The Before Times: A Place That Celebrates The World That Was 
   
Made in au
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
No, I understand you. I just don't agree with the principal. You don't see a Stompa's weapons being all assault just because it's an Ork unit that would love to get into melee.
Nor Mek Gunz, or Lootas. Doesn't change the fundamental aspects of the army. If anything, the exceptions prove the rule.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Certainly Bad Moons don't fit the statement "they race into combat with wild abandon".
At the end of the day, Orks are Orks. The majority of their Kulture or unit eccentricities come to the fore with the more unique units than they do with the hordes of Slugga or Choppa boyz.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Just because you want to enforce one archetype on an entire race just so certain weapons fit that archetype doesn't feel right to me at all.
That 'certain weapon' has fit within that archetype of quite some time. This is a recent change that breaks that. Someone already brought up Tyranid 'heavy' weapons, and the same would apply to them if the Heavy Venom Cannon suddenly became a Heavy weapon.

 Insectum7 wrote:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but the Loota guns have historically been Heavy. The big guns in the Boys units (aka the units that close with the enemy) were Assault.
And Lootas are looked on as kinda weird by the rest of the Orks that fight along side them. And another stationary gun unit, Mek Gunz, are crewed by Gretchin because the Orks see such tasks as beneath them.

This is why assault weapons for Ork mobs made sense. It fit with who they are.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/11/11 22:00:56


Industrial Insanity - My Terrain Blog
"GW really needs to understand 'Less is more' when it comes to AoS." - Wha-Mu-077

 
   
 
Forum Index » 40K General Discussion
Go to: