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Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




 emanuelb wrote:


But is the barrier of entry worse than in 40k? Getting into Warhammer is tough - a 2000 points army costs a lot, and every unit has a ton of rules, keywords and exceptions to the rules. The models themselves are expensive (duh). The same problems exist for most big wargames - AoS, Kings of War, Conquests - it's the nature of the beast, you need lots of models.


Regarding the barrier of entry, Price wise it depends. I'm wary about selling pp on the 'but it's cheaper!' ticket but some of thr pp stuff is obscene. Infernals for example. Or Legion chosen cavalry. Hundred quid for 5 models. I got some woefully casted long gunners for the best part of fifty quid recently.


Secondly 40k isn't '2000pts or go home'..gw present a lot of paths of entry and at a variety of scales and approaches. Even down to kill team. Wmh up until recently was very much '75pt steamroller or gtfo'. Compound this by # of players.

Now in regard to the 'knowledge burden', there is an overwhelming amount of information to take in and be aware of with wmh to the point where 40k and aos are the equivalent of homeopathic wmh. Wmh requires you to know and to be aware of a staggering amount of information. Combine this with the sheer bloat of the game and the barrier, whilst not unreachable, just isn't rewarding to a lot of people. Compounding this is the nature of the game where to 'git good' and 'stay good' you had to invest a lot of time playing and studying the game. For me for example getting into mk2 at the start was really rewarding. The game has doubled in size then and even coming from a place where I 'knew' the game, mk3 sadly just seemed more trouble than it was worth to get back into. I can only imagine someone new seeing that and just 'noping' right out. Again, this also combined with the community size and other amounts like the dismissal of the hobby component by a lot of players (I'd need to drive 1-2 hours each way to get a game in). For me I loved that 'intense' game, once upon a time. I got older. I'm less interested in investing into that. I want simple, intuitive and elegant. Games like warcry, kill team and bare bones necromunda are what I'm.after.


 emanuelb wrote:


I think the only thing that bothers me regarding Warmachine is the fact that you need 2 armies in competitions. But even that can be partially mitigated by having mostly the same models, plus I have to say it adds to the strategy (it's like sideboard in mtg).


I always liked 2 lists (I think warcasters approach to list building is very interesting) . Sure, swap a caster is a thing. But with the combo-nature and list-chicken that's out there uts not a very effective approach. And if we are talking about minimising the investment with 'same army, new caster' to make the point its cheaper can I not also point to alternative ways of playing within the gw ecosystem?

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2022/01/25 10:38:22


greatest band in the universe: machine supremacy

"Punch your fist in the air and hold your Gameboy aloft like the warrior you are" 
   
Made in pl
Regular Dakkanaut




Exactly what Deadnight its saying.

Also, I'd rather not support the "game needs fewer models so they can be much more expensive" fallacy. Points cost and game size are artificially and arbitrarily imposed by the game's designers, they shouldn't be the basis for the price of physical products. Such approach leads to designers just upping the abstract points costs of models to increase their cost in very real money.

At the end of the day you pay for the toys you get and what you do with them is up to you. And you get more toys to paint and play with for the same price from GW. I have a lot of GW models as alternatives in my Warmachine armies simply because they were MUCH cheaper (like half the price or less in some cases) and as good or better than PP originals.

Examples:
https://lormahordes.freeforums.net/thread/9637/idoneth-reavers-warmachine

https://lormahordes.freeforums.net/thread/1801/bane-riders-less-half-price

https://lormahordes.freeforums.net/thread/1484/vessel-judgement-half-price

https://lormahordes.freeforums.net/thread/2031/circle-after-break?page=2

https://lormahordes.freeforums.net/thread/7292/flamebringers
   
Made in gb
Executing Exarch





@ Cyel, where is that Gallows Grove proxy from please ? I have some PP one but not having the branchs fall off all the time might be nice

Cheers

"AND YET YOU ACT AS IF THERE IS SOME IDEAL ORDER IN THE WORLD, AS IF THERE IS SOME...SOME RIGHTNESS IN THE UNIVERSE BY WHICH IT MAY BE JUDGED." 
   
Made in us
Mad Gyrocopter Pilot





washington state USA

Stock and shipping issues aside WM/H is going well at our FLGS.

If you have been following my 50-point battles topic we have added several new players* and got the players who have been procrastinating back into the game.

As it is now we have active players with the following armies

.trenchers themed army (cygnar)
.crucible guard
.circle orbos/cygnar
.legion of everblight
.grimkin*
.retribution*
.skorne/trolls/khador*
.minions
.khador

That is 9 regulars helping support the community.

You are also right that players are fed up with GW and are looking to jump ship to other games.

We recently got an 8th/9th ed player to join us for our retro 5th ed 40K games (brings us up to about 10 regulars with a few more interested), he also has moved heavily to infinity, another has switched over to FOW, several have joined us for classic battletech and WM/H.

The fact people are seeing us play these games every weekend helps promote interest, motivating players to get into the games. the fact many of these games have a low buy in cost to start a working army also helps. A zero point or even 25-point list for WM/H for example will not cost you an arm and a leg to get a basic game in unlike a small force from GW.



GAMES-DUST1947/infinity/B5 wars/epic 40K/5th ed 40K/victory at sea/warmachine/battle tactics/monpoc/battletech/battlefleet gothic/castles in the sky,/heavy gear 
   
Made in pl
Regular Dakkanaut




 Turnip Jedi wrote:
@ Cyel, where is that Gallows Grove proxy from please ? I have some PP one but not having the branchs fall off all the time might be nice

Cheers


It's just a couple of branches from a plastic forest by GW (you actually still have the entire forest to use after cutting those off) + superglue-soaked sponge + some bits.


Last weekend we've had the biggest local tournament in a few years! Yeah, it's been a few years since we had more than 10 players at a local Warmachine tournament despite living in a 2-million population European capital city...

The mixed format of "theoretically we play Brawlmachine in relaxed 2-hour rounds but if both players agree they can play a 75pts battle in this time" is proving to be a success.

Spoiler:


   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Cyel wrote:

Last weekend we've had the biggest local tournament in a few years! Yeah, it's been a few years since we had more than 10 players at a local Warmachine tournament despite living in a 2-million population European capital city...


Out of interest Cyel, do you tend to play at stores/clubs where you are or is it more home set ups?

One thing I often wondered about WM/H is the fact that we only measure our success by tournament numbers.

But I played the game for years in a group of 4-5 people at our houses and never once ventured out into the wider London/SE meta (when I used to live there). One thing the community could do if place less emphasis on tournament play and focus more on "you can play this game with your mates". Which I the success of GW games and things like Malifaux.

But on positive news I understand that the Welsh Master is trying to make this years a 64 player / 7 rounds event. Sherwood is about 26 players. So the tournaments here in the UK are kicking into life, but it all seems like the same players.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




Sunno wrote:


Out of interest Cyel, do you tend to play at stores/clubs where you are or is it more home set ups?

One thing I often wondered about WM/H is the fact that we only measure our success by tournament numbers.

But I played the game for years in a group of 4-5 people at our houses and never once ventured out into the wider London/SE meta (when I used to live there). One thing the community could do if place less emphasis on tournament play and focus more on "you can play this game with your mates". Which I the success of GW games and things like Malifaux.


This is very much a thing. Long ago in uni I played 40k with a uni gaming society (4th ed). It was all gw all the time. I was rhe weirdo wanting to push this other game. And as far as anyone knew, no one played wmh. And then through a friend of a friend I came across an 'imvisible' group that had been playing wmh since the black and white mk1 rulebook. Our communities never crossed hence how we never knew the other existed.

I do think there are more 'invisible' gw hubs than wmh ones though!

A few years ago a few friends and I got into the 'play wmh at a friend's house' thing. For me I xouldnt keep going there due to travel it it is very much a legitimate thing. Worth a try. And at least 'it's my house my rules; curb the ridiculous tourney builds' can theoretically stand.

Sunno wrote:


But on positive news I understand that the Welsh Master is trying to make this years a 64 player / 7 rounds event. Sherwood is about 26 players. So the tournaments here in the UK are kicking into life, but it all seems like the same players.


Its my experience here too. The tournaments and events are the same dozen people with the same armies from ten years ago. That said let's be optimistic - maybe it'll kick-start something.

greatest band in the universe: machine supremacy

"Punch your fist in the air and hold your Gameboy aloft like the warrior you are" 
   
Made in pl
Regular Dakkanaut




Sunno wrote:
Cyel wrote:

Last weekend we've had the biggest local tournament in a few years! Yeah, it's been a few years since we had more than 10 players at a local Warmachine tournament despite living in a 2-million population European capital city...


Out of interest Cyel, do you tend to play at stores/clubs where you are or is it more home set ups?

One thing I often wondered about WM/H is the fact that we only measure our success by tournament numbers.


I mostly play at the club, where we organise tournaments as well. I also have 2-3 people (with some rotation over time) with whom I play at home and never at tournies.

The thing is, though, that at the end of mk2 / beginning of mk3 I had a 10+ strong group of friends I played with at home (so I didn't really feel much need to go to play with random people outside this group/at tournies, unless I fancied it). This group dissolved at about the same time the local "club-tournie" community did soon after mk3 launch, mostly for the same reasons - the game was too much pain to keep up with rules- and $$$-wise.

I was left with no choice but to play with the local leftovers at the club, if I wanted to play at all. I still see my playing at home as my golden age of WM&H gaming.


Ah, and we don't play in stores, as no store in Poland sells WM&H

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/01/28 10:32:31


 
   
Made in us
Gun Mage




Late to the party, but MK3 also coincided roughly with the end of the Press Ganger program as well as the end of their forum. My LGS had a pretty solid amount of WM/H players, but the week after the Press Ganger program ended he had the majority of that group playing Guildball, and then guided them through several other games. Haven't really been in to game in a while due to you know what, but from what I've seen on social media it looks like they've settled into a mix of Star Wars, Marvel Crisis Protocol, and 40K (especially Kill Team).

Shortly after the group switched, all the WM/H in the LGS was discounted, with the remainder getting sold on their Ebay storefront a few weeks later.

I do think there were other contributing factors. know of new players who came in tended to run into the "oh, you didn't know my army could do this?" surprise far too often, and personally I got tired of trying to chase the new "best" themes that came out of CID (Flames was the breaking point for me).


Monsterpocalypse and Warcaster both hold some interest for me, but I can honestly say I've never seen anybody play them in person, and discussion on either tends to be exceptionally rare.
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





nobody wrote:

Monsterpocalypse and Warcaster both hold some interest for me, but I can honestly say I've never seen anybody play them in person, and discussion on either tends to be exceptionally rare.


Both are pretty heavily centered around Discord I've noticed. A lot of the WMH community migrated there in general, particularly now that a lot of the game is played on Wartable for obvious reasons. Not my favorite platform, but I suppose its better than Facebook. Happy to chat up either though.

FWIW, MonPoc is probably my favorite system of all time. I think most people mentally have it in hibernation again until the Kickstarter delivers but its really just an exceptional game and the new edition has put the emphasis back on the monsters that was my one big disappointment with the orgiinal.

Warcaster I think is a system with a ton of potential. The core mechanics are really dynamic and fun and flip the standard ideas of attrition based gameplay on their head. The big downside currently is there's just not a lot of variety to be had. Most factions only have enough to fill out a skirmish army (which, honestly I think is a better point size than the full game anyway) so it doesn't take very long to figure out what's good. The upcoming kickstarter looks to breathe a bunch of new life into the game, but I think it'll probably take one more wave of releases to where it feels like there's some real variety in each army. It's a very solid game to have a little force for the Skirmish level. I think that might always be where it shines as kind of the anti-Warmachine. Small table with a lot of terrain, quick back and forth gameplay with model death being far less important than where you put them to die. I think its totally worth a try, particularly with the new wave of releases coming in the next few months.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




I do think pp are quietly lining up warcaster as their next big hitter, maybe with monsterpocalypse and just keeping wmh on the back-burner for the long-term. I see warcaster as a game with fresh space (literally) they can innovate with, cover new ground etc, apply 20 years of wmh's 'lessons learned' and do all that without any historic baggage or bloat.

Give me that and I'm happy to watch wmh saunter off into the sunset and the history books.

greatest band in the universe: machine supremacy

"Punch your fist in the air and hold your Gameboy aloft like the warrior you are" 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





I'm not sure how much it is about making it their big hitter or just something to lean on to give WMH a break. I think with all of the issues they've had adapting to the new world of distribution a lot of it is just about experimenting with different SKU packages to find something that works.
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba




New Jersey, State of Perfection

Deadnight wrote:
For me it just felt mk3 was a rushed cash grab full of changes rather than improvements.

More importantly to me pp used to be the 'different' approach company. With mk3 they did everything they claimed gw did and they'd never do.

They had to redesign skorne from the ground up straight out of the gate. I didn't like themes and I didnt like how bloated the game was becoming, both on the tabletop and in the rosters. As a khador player I saw nothing that excited me for years. The design space was just cluttered and loads if the new ideas were just soulless. They run out of ideas. While I love the models, trencher long gunners was one example. What's next? Winter guard pikemen? Iron fang kommandos?

Add to that pp made a lot of anti-retailer decisions at that time which turned retail against them and killed their forums which alienated a lot of fans (I was glad the forum was killed; to me it was a toxic salt mine poisoned by group think and zero creativity) but still... no quarter was canned which crushed me. There was no new fiction from skull Island. Hell there was no new fiction. It was just a great reset right hack to where it all started. Mk2 had better plot lines like caine/magnus/julius. Mk3 fekt like 'the great reset'. Toruk assaulted the mainland directly. And then went back home. No change. Khador gave back point Bourne. With the start of mk2 there were seismic shifts. Mk3 didn't give me that.

Where I am in the UK the player base was struggling though the end of mk2. It was dropping off. Mk3 just didn't get people involved enough.

Add to that was the gw renaissance at this time. Like it or not gw turned a corner and were doing gangbusters on so many fronts. Combine pp's misteps with gw
stepping up their game and that's only going one way.

Spot on, sums up my feelings perfectly (especially as a fellow Khadoran). In all honesty, I would say that balance issues notwithstanding and some shortcomings in some of the smaller/newer factions, much of Warmachine/Hordes is a "complete game". The design space for a lot of the core/original factions is very full and there isn't much room left to expand it meaningfully other than repackaging the same gak over and over again in different wrappers (ala "Winter Guard Pikemen"). Unlike 40k which seems to be a potentially infinitely open-ended system, Warmachine seemed like it was designed from the getgo as a more finite and constrained system in every conceivable sense, and as a result - whether intentional or not - I think its run its course and gone about as far as it can go barring a major reset and shakeup.

Like others, I forsee a transition to promoting Warcaster as they sunset Warmachine/Hordes. I think they'll keep WMHDs around for a while rather than a more direct End Times and Age of Sigmaring, but they will give the games lip service levels of support for a number of years while they try to grow Warcaster/MonPoc to cover their bills, and once they have a sustainable alternative product I think thats when they reboot WMHDs by advancing the timeline and shaking up the setting a bit, not necessarily as dramatic a shift as WHFB to AoS was, but enough for it to be a risky move. They already laid the groundwork for it with the Infernals release and Hengehold Scroll, etc. and the forthcoming Orgoth release, but i suspect COVID through a wrench into things and that Warcaster wasn't as big of a hit right out the gate as they wanted, so it might take them longer to get there than they would like it to.


This ain't no pansy GW Armor, son - Digital Sculpting Plog, Now with Heavy Weapon Platforms!
Sympathy for the Devil, or: The Project Log from Hell

Ma55ter_fett wrote:It reads like the ramblings of a Nigerian lobotomized Shakespeare typed into a cellphone with a very aggressive autocomplete function.
 
   
Made in gb
Worthiest of Warlock Engineers






preston

Not to mention the atrocious handling of mini distribution, AKA PP's decision to cut the middle man and sell everything in-house. Which is great until your not in America and have to pay the obscene USPS cost (literally more to get a padded envelope to the UK from the US than it is to get a parcel of gunpla from Japan), a move that basically killed the supply of minis in most countries.

Free from GW's tyranny and the hobby is looking better for it
DR:90-S++G+++M++B++I+Pww205++D++A+++/sWD146R++T(T)D+
 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




Didn't the UK supply used to be cast by a third party called cerberus down in Liverpool?

Another thing I've noticed is the last few metals I've gotten (trenchers, trencher long gunners and iron fangs) have been woefully cast. Gw would be staked out for their fans for that (finecast??)

greatest band in the universe: machine supremacy

"Punch your fist in the air and hold your Gameboy aloft like the warrior you are" 
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba




New Jersey, State of Perfection

 master of ordinance wrote:
Not to mention the atrocious handling of mini distribution, AKA PP's decision to cut the middle man and sell everything in-house. Which is great until your not in America and have to pay the obscene USPS cost (literally more to get a padded envelope to the UK from the US than it is to get a parcel of gunpla from Japan), a move that basically killed the supply of minis in most countries.


That wasn't really a "decision" they made, as that implies they had a choice. A number of distributors got burned by their products during the Mk3 sales collapse and don't want to carry their range anymore. The remaining few who would deal with their products aren't interested in doing restocks, they would only commit to distributing new releases and once they sold out they wouldn't restock those products and would only accept further new releases (thats essentially the state of the industry right now as a whole and not just for Privateer Press. Aside from games and products that have very high demand levels, distributors won't restock your products, everything is in one direction and out the other one and done. This is why CMoN now distributes through Asmodee and why Asmodee self-distributes so that they can ensure their products can stay on store shelves. This had a role in GW bringing everything in house a few years ago as well, though they were ahead of the curve in terms of recognizing the trends and the harm it would cause to their business). In essence, the choice was:

A - Bring distribution in-house so we can ensure steady flow of supply and restocks to retailers for our complete product range.
B - Outsource distribution but retailers would only ever be able to order new products and couldn't restock our back catalog.

There was no option C for a hybrid model, because distribution operates best "at scale" and new item releases make up the largest and most profitable share of hobby retail distribution (hence why distributors only want to do new releases and not restocks - higher overhead/lower margins and smaller volume makes it very inefficient to do them). If PP let distributors do the new releases and they only did restocks in house then PP wouldn't be able to operate its in-house distribution operation sustainably - it would also still create issues because retailers would bitch and moan that they aren't able to restock from their distributor and have to have a separate trade account with PP for it and they would blame PP for it all instead of rightfully blaming their distribution partners, etc. etc. etc. and it would still be a big shitshow.

This ain't no pansy GW Armor, son - Digital Sculpting Plog, Now with Heavy Weapon Platforms!
Sympathy for the Devil, or: The Project Log from Hell

Ma55ter_fett wrote:It reads like the ramblings of a Nigerian lobotomized Shakespeare typed into a cellphone with a very aggressive autocomplete function.
 
   
Made in gb
Focused Dark Angels Land Raider Pilot



Wrexham, North Wales

Deadnight wrote:
Didn't the UK supply used to be cast by a third party called cerberus down in Liverpool?

Another thing I've noticed is the last few metals I've gotten (trenchers, trencher long gunners and iron fangs) have been woefully cast. Gw would be staked out for their fans for that (finecast??)


As PP switched more and more to non-metal, Cerebus found themselves more becoming a importer and distributor of PP product. At the end of last year they decided to terminate that relationship. PP imports have been taken up by Wayland Games and distributed through their trade arm: Warcradle. Whether that is good or bad (or neither) is for you to decide.
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut





Edgewood, Washington state

 Valander wrote:
NinthMusketeer wrote:Oh yay, this thread turning into add space for a podcast again.


Kanluwen wrote:
 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Oh yay, this thread turning into add space for a podcast again.

Rather than snark about it, click the triangle of friendship.

But yeah. Big reason I didn't bother keeping up with the previous thread.

I think that, in itself, does actually describe the state of Warmachine/Hordes: there's like one, small community that still is active, but it's otherwise mostly reminiscing about "when it was good," or wishing PP would do something more to actually promote their game. Unless PP takes some major action otherwise, I think the game is going to have the slow, painful, lingering decline until it's not much more than a cult favorite but practically unsupported.


My experience of the fan base in WA, mainly Tacoma and Olympia have not been good. It's probably the only reason why I have not bothered committing 100%, though my Legion of Everblight starter box is fully painted and based. I would like to give Warmachine/Hordes another try.
   
Made in us
Mad Gyrocopter Pilot





washington state USA

I suppose it is where you play. our group is more of a social friendly group, back before the lockdowns started there was a hardcore group that played on Friday nights at our FLGS, i am usually working those hours so i only managed to hop in on a rare day off, turns out they were not very welcoming of new players, so i went back to playing with my normal group.



GAMES-DUST1947/infinity/B5 wars/epic 40K/5th ed 40K/victory at sea/warmachine/battle tactics/monpoc/battletech/battlefleet gothic/castles in the sky,/heavy gear 
   
Made in us
Guard Heavy Weapon Crewman




Arizona

 Grensche wrote:


My experience of the fan base in WA, mainly Tacoma and Olympia have not been good. It's probably the only reason why I have not bothered committing 100%, though my Legion of Everblight starter box is fully painted and based. I would like to give Warmachine/Hordes another try.


If you're near Oly you’re not far from me. PNW has a fairly large amount of people out there. The caveat is that Discord is the main form of communicating. If you’re not already in the group let me know and I will toss you a link.


 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut





Edgewood, Washington state

medikant wrote:
 Grensche wrote:


My experience of the fan base in WA, mainly Tacoma and Olympia have not been good. It's probably the only reason why I have not bothered committing 100%, though my Legion of Everblight starter box is fully painted and based. I would like to give Warmachine/Hordes another try.


If you're near Oly you’re not far from me. PNW has a fairly large amount of people out there. The caveat is that Discord is the main form of communicating. If you’re not already in the group let me know and I will toss you a link.


I'm moving out to Edgewood so I'm not near Olympia. But if you have people in the Tacoma area I'll be glad to join the discord server.
   
Made in ca
Regular Dakkanaut




chaos0xomega wrote:
 master of ordinance wrote:
Not to mention the atrocious handling of mini distribution, AKA PP's decision to cut the middle man and sell everything in-house. Which is great until your not in America and have to pay the obscene USPS cost (literally more to get a padded envelope to the UK from the US than it is to get a parcel of gunpla from Japan), a move that basically killed the supply of minis in most countries.


That wasn't really a "decision" they made, as that implies they had a choice.


I can't comment on a lot of what chaos0xomega said in the rest of that post, but I can comment on PP's utter incompetence at both international distribution and shipping in general - because their lack of choice stemmed 100% from their own decisions.

I attempted to set up a bespoke distribution agreement with PP in 2013, as I had a business plan, and a way of penetrating a market that was mostly untapped and at zero risk to PP - all the risk would have been shouldered by me. PP was utterly inflexible in their distribution agreement - which among other things mandated taking on 40 copies of each new rulebook for sale to a non-English-speaking audience, and they also had absolutely no idea how much any of their products weighed or how large they were. This is a direct quote from my communication with them:


Unfortunately, I do not have any idea how much the order would cost to ship because it all depends on the weight and size of the order and the location it is shipping to. We could only let you know that information once we had an order packed and ready to ship.


While PP would have sent product to a freight forwarder in the US for free, it would have been extremely difficult to optimize shipping of such product, because PP couldn't give you an idea of how much volume or how much weight any given order would be until it was actually strapped to a shipping pallet. I'm not sure how any distributor is supposed to handle that sort of uncertainty.

   
Made in us
Widowmaker





Sunno wrote:
I really feel like its one step forward, one step back for WM/H as a game. The huge update by Faye has a great thing, really made lots of models viable and opened up list building within the constrains of theme forces and made me excited to list build again. However despite all that, 1) Nobody apart from the current player base really knows about it. There is still 0 advertising or publicity to the wider wargaming community. 2) What’s the point if large portions of the world struggle get stock other than from ebay. Its not an issue that other game systems have. Malifaux, Infinity etc have no issue getting their product into stores in the UK and Europe.

PP also seems unable to keep hold of their talented staff members and seem to be spread so thin these days. I actually think it would be best for them to focus on their other games and just put WM/H into a maintenance mode, releasing the odd patch or campaign update rather than adding yet more factions to a system they have only just managed to balance, years after Mk3.

I have seen a lot of people looking for “another game” with all the things happening with 40K. Iv seen quite a few higher profile 40K players/youtubers/social media people look at Malifaux (which I play) and I have also seen Wyrd reach out to painters to get their products to them for showcases etc. Nothing from PP. What a great opportunity this could be. Pandemic hopefully coming to an end, people looking for new social hobbies, they could bring in a new generation of players. Instead, again, they are missing out on what should be basic steps.

Its telling that the single thing that seems to be responsible for ANY growth in the game is a fan made initiative. Brawlmachine is wonderful and Id like to buy the LOS guys a beer if I ever meet them. I know they love it and do it for the good of the game. But the fact that it was required at all and its probably the only thing bringing new blood to the game is damning, quite frankly.

I think the game itself is in a great spot. As ever the issues with WM/H is not what happens on the table. It’s the company and elements of the community.

That said. I am looking forward to getting out there and seeing what my new local WM/H community is like (iv just moved house) and im keen to paint my backlog. But WM/H is probably going to remain as my secondary game and im not going to buy anything else until im happy with the direction the company is moving. I will be playing Malifaux mostly I think.

I always seem to write longer post on WM/H but its because i want it to better than it is and its a real disappointment to me that its been so poorly managed


Pretty much, game and community are awesome. Leadership needs to be changed. Hoping one day Matt Wilson sells the company off or merges it with another company that knows how to handle the business end.

 
   
Made in us
Widowmaker





Deadnight wrote:
 emanuelb wrote:


But is the barrier of entry worse than in 40k? Getting into Warhammer is tough - a 2000 points army costs a lot, and every unit has a ton of rules, keywords and exceptions to the rules. The models themselves are expensive (duh). The same problems exist for most big wargames - AoS, Kings of War, Conquests - it's the nature of the beast, you need lots of models.


Regarding the barrier of entry, Price wise it depends. I'm wary about selling pp on the 'but it's cheaper!' ticket but some of thr pp stuff is obscene. Infernals for example. Or Legion chosen cavalry. Hundred quid for 5 models. I got some woefully casted long gunners for the best part of fifty quid recently.


Secondly 40k isn't '2000pts or go home'..gw present a lot of paths of entry and at a variety of scales and approaches. Even down to kill team. Wmh up until recently was very much '75pt steamroller or gtfo'. Compound this by # of players.

Now in regard to the 'knowledge burden', there is an overwhelming amount of information to take in and be aware of with wmh to the point where 40k and aos are the equivalent of homeopathic wmh. Wmh requires you to know and to be aware of a staggering amount of information. Combine this with the sheer bloat of the game and the barrier, whilst not unreachable, just isn't rewarding to a lot of people. Compounding this is the nature of the game where to 'git good' and 'stay good' you had to invest a lot of time playing and studying the game. For me for example getting into mk2 at the start was really rewarding. The game has doubled in size then and even coming from a place where I 'knew' the game, mk3 sadly just seemed more trouble than it was worth to get back into. I can only imagine someone new seeing that and just 'noping' right out. Again, this also combined with the community size and other amounts like the dismissal of the hobby component by a lot of players (I'd need to drive 1-2 hours each way to get a game in). For me I loved that 'intense' game, once upon a time. I got older. I'm less interested in investing into that. I want simple, intuitive and elegant. Games like warcry, kill team and bare bones necromunda are what I'm.after.


 emanuelb wrote:


I think the only thing that bothers me regarding Warmachine is the fact that you need 2 armies in competitions. But even that can be partially mitigated by having mostly the same models, plus I have to say it adds to the strategy (it's like sideboard in mtg).


I always liked 2 lists (I think warcasters approach to list building is very interesting) . Sure, swap a caster is a thing. But with the combo-nature and list-chicken that's out there uts not a very effective approach. And if we are talking about minimising the investment with 'same army, new caster' to make the point its cheaper can I not also point to alternative ways of playing within the gw ecosystem?


Maybe man, but GW rules suck sooo bad and the whole community has a cultish feel to it that company has created. I tried to get back in the but rules are so boring I would rather just bow out the scene completely and load up my seXbox. Price point still sucks based on the amount of models you need to play to "really play", and even low model count armies worth a gak, still super expensive unless you putting your 3D print on bbbrrr mode. And the list of factions within factions that are actually worth a gak still is something GW can't figure out.

And you get that wierd sex cult feel where it seems like everyone in GW customer base is tied to each other by a dark secret. If you say "hey man, that game was cool, can we play this (non-GW game X) game?" they get all skeezy and freaked out. Like you asked a scientologist to go to your church, mosque, or synogogue.

And you can see it too most people who play any other non-GW game will also play a GW game. But the reverse so a unicorn. It is like GW has functionally found out how to tap into a consumer base that is all those kids in high school who where stunningly average. Not smart but wish they were, not athletic but fantasize about it, has social adjustment issues due to problems at home (mommies 5th boyfriend gets wierd when I call him dad). These the kids that even drank and drugged like dog gak.

Somehow along the way, these kids convinced their friends to play the only system where you have to buy your way to win in a limited faction within a faction and people started to follow him (after all these are this strawman's friends. If this guy is a perfectly average loser imagine the one's who call him leader?!).

Wyrd games, Infinity, Conquest, Privateer Press games, AMG Star Wars or Marvel, Battletech. But GW, sorry dude if I wanted to go broke trying to keep up with losers, I would just drink, smoke, and gamble my life way at the slots.

https://odysee.com/@RazorFist:1/it's-time-to-gatekeep-the-gatekeepers:b

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/02/15 18:45:24


 
   
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I don't believe you've ever actually interacted with a 40k player before

Overwhelming majority of players I've encountered in my 20 years in the hobby basically go "man, these rules/this game sucks, but I really like the minis and lore and nobody plays those other games so I guess I'm stuck with this" (the irony of course being that if everyone who ever said that would just buy into other games the statement would no longer be true).

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marxlives wrote:


Maybe man, but GW rules suck sooo bad and the whole community has a cultish feel to it that company has created.


What, and you don't think pp have their wilson worshipping cultists united by the mantra of 'anything but gw/being hypercritical of every decision/product they make' and who always give pp a free pass?

Or any other game for that matter.

I mean 'gw-hating' might as well also be a Cult.

And yes, generally gw rules are pretty terrible, at least for the 'big' games.
That said, lotr is still a brilliant wee game and I'm actuslly expanding my lotr armies at the moment. Warcry, kill team, shadespire and newcromunda are great games and AT has a very strong reputation.

marxlives wrote:


I tried to get back in the but rules are so boring I would rather just bow out the scene completely and load up my seXbox. Price point still sucks based on the amount of models you need to play to "really play", and even low model count armies worth a gak, still super expensive unless you putting your 3D print on bbbrrr mode. And the list of factions within factions that are actually worth a gak still is something GW can't figure out.


'How you play' matters. Price point can be terrible, but that's true for any game- have you priced a 2-list 75pt infernals list? My 50pt xharge of the hotselords list was something like 3-400 quid. My butcher 3 double black dragon list had zero overlap and that was something similar. And it depends on what you play. Kill team. One box of dudes and you're good to go.

And it Depends on the game, imo. I've had more fun with gw games these last 4 years than qny other company's. And I was a player who refused to play gw games for nigh on ten years.

It's obvious its not gelling for you though so your probably doing the right thing by stepping away.

marxlives wrote:


And you get that wierd sex cult feel where it seems like everyone in GW customer base is tied to each other by a dark secret. If you say "hey man, that game was cool, can we play this (non-GW game X) game?" they get all skeezy and freaked out. Like you asked a scientologist to go to your church, mosque, or synogogue.



Not in my world.

marxlives wrote:


And you can see it too most people who play any other non-GW game will also play a GW game. But the reverse so a unicorn.



I dunno. There's a lot of anecdotal evidence that one of the big downfalls of pp in the mk3 era is the community refusing to step away from 75pt steamroller.

For what it's worth though, more people play gw games by an order of magnitude than other games. It makes sense theyd also be played.

marxlives wrote:


. It is like GW has functionally found out how to tap into a consumer base that is all those kids in high school who where stunningly average. Not smart but wish they were, not athletic but fantasize about it, has social adjustment issues due to problems at home (mommies 5th boyfriend gets wierd when I call him dad). These the kids that even drank and drugged like dog gak.

Somehow along the way, these kids convinced their friends to play the only system where you have to buy your way to win in a limited faction within a faction and people started to follow him (after all these are this strawman's friends. If this guy is a perfectly average loser imagine the one's who call him leader?!).



You don't need to chase the meta.

And I don't think that very toxic description of gw players is fair or accurate.

marxlives wrote:


Wyrd games, Infinity, Conquest, Privateer Press games, AMG Star Wars or Marvel, Battletech. But GW, sorry dude if I wanted to go broke trying to keep up with losers, I would just drink, smoke, and gamble my life way at the slots.

https://odysee.com/@RazorFist:1/it's-time-to-gatekeep-the-gatekeepers:b



Play with better people. And be cleverer about how you play. And I sincerely hope you are not referring to 'other gw players' as losers here...

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/02/15 21:16:20


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Well, criticising GW games isn't necessarily hating. They are quite objectively just bad, outdated designs. Minimal player agency eclipsed by unmitigatable randomness, tiny decision space, bloated upkeep which takes most of the playing time. Elegant design means achieving interesting, complex gamestates with simple rules, GW achieves simple gamestates with complicated, baroque rules.

I have recently tried out Blood Bowl and boy, is it a totall mess of a game (which is not surprising, considering how ancient the base design is)!
   
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Cyel wrote:
Well, criticising GW games isn't necessarily hating. They are quite objectively just bad, outdated designs.



Indeed, which is why I quite specifically stated gw-hating. And lets be honest, there are a lot of extremely entitled, toxic individuals amongst the wargaming community whose hobby is apparently hating on the hobby.

I've seen people weaponise the idea that sormcast helmets had a halo in their design as proof gw are incompetent and out of touch because kids are atheist these days, apparently. Just so they can get a dig in against gw.ive seen gw ridiculed and attacked for everything from reiver calves to boxy tanks. Whatever decision they make (or don't make) is attacked, whatever they do is twisted into a 'badwrongthing', the best they get is 'its not good enough'. Look at the community response to the guys who did the astartes videos. Pretty sure One of them was literally run out of the hobby. Pretty sure i remember hearing matt ward got death threats as well. Look at the response when they said 'nazis aren't welcome here'. Amongst many many other examples of gw hating.

People rage on gw, regardless of what they do. No positivity or good experiences can be attributed to gw games or allowed for, no compliments or positive reactions allowed or you're a 'shill'. This also often extendz to people who enjoy playing gw games. I've been told I am the reason everything is terrible because I home brew and houserule and accomodate. Yes, gw deserve plenty criticism but for too many, it has been twisted into something very nasty and yes, cult-ish. This kind of relentless anger is not healthy.

Anyway this is ot - We're on the pp boards.

Cyel wrote:
Minimal player agency eclipsed by unmitigatable randomness, tiny decision space, bloated upkeep which takes most of the playing time.


I don't think this is entirely accurate.

It's probably a lot more true for 40k or aos but they've long since stopped being gw's only offerings. And I'll defend randomness. Sometimes random elements and reduced agency/having some of the game state out of your hands and put of your control makes for very interesting games bolt action and test of honor for example would like a word.

Also the last time I played infinity and warmachine they definitely drifted into bloated upkeep for me. Spent more time rifling through the rulebook than playing the game.


Cyel wrote:
. Elegant design means achieving interesting, complex gamestates with simple rules, GW achieves simple gamestates with complicated, baroque rules.

I have recently tried out Blood Bowl and boy, is it a totall mess of a game (which is not surprising, considering how ancient the base design is)!


To be fair to gw; this is more true for their older games/re-releases like 40k, Bloodbowl and newcromunda. Some of theor games are a lot clunkier than others. Its less true for other games in their stables. their Adeptus titanicus game is meant to be all kinds of simple yet elegant and deep. I've not played it but it is very well regarded. And I am enjoying kill team and warcry immensely. Simple elegant and intuitive rules. Snd very interesting games. There us also the gem that is the old lotr sbg game. Still more or less the same after twenty years and it is one of their most underappreciated games - very much simple elegant and clever.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2022/02/16 10:17:41


greatest band in the universe: machine supremacy

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I definitely can't blame them for producing what sells for them ! I admire an efficient business even if their product is not for me.

And WM&H suffers from many of these problems, it's also quite old now. When they were advertising streamlining in mk3 I was hoping it would be the design policy from then on, but we all know what we ended up with

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/02/16 10:41:52


 
   
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Cyel wrote:
I definitely can't blame them for producing what sells for them ! I admire an efficient business even if their product is not for me.

And WM&H suffers from many of these problems, it's also quite old now. When they were advertising streamlining in mk3 I was hoping it would be the design policy from then on, but we all know what we ended up with


Totally fair!

Honestly, in my opinion pp's future is in warcaster nk, not warmachine/hordes. If you can find some fellows to buy into it with you, i think you'll get some decent gaming out of it.

Warmachine/hordes is just waiting for its end times.

greatest band in the universe: machine supremacy

"Punch your fist in the air and hold your Gameboy aloft like the warrior you are" 
   
 
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