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Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba




The Great State of New Jersey

Thing about rulesets is that once you move past a certain point in edits and changes, the game ceases to be the game anymore. Warcaster is an entirely different game engine. Theres a few concepts that they can port over to WMHDs and integrate into the WMHDs engine, but taking the Warcaster rules and making it the basis for Mk4 means that Mk4 isn't really Warmachine anymore, instead its Warcaster: Iron Kingdoms but with a different name.


CoALabaer wrote:
Wargamers hate two things: the state of the game and change.
 
   
Made in ca
Dipping With Wood Stain






Deadnight wrote:
When p3 paint gets rare, that'll be my sad moment.

Need more greatcoat grey, pig iron and traitor green. :p


Oh but it is. Due to distribution issues, my LGS no longer carry’s the line.
Nor do they carry any PP product outside of what they pledge on KS.
I’m having to switch my main paint line I use because of this, and the PP paint rack has been relegated to the clearance section of the store, with a paltry few pots of colours no one uses.
I will not order directly from PP because weather concerns and freezing paint. And their shipping to Canada is ludicrous, not including getting hosed on the exchange rate.

My LGS has a slogan due to their size - ‘If it’s in print, we will try and stock it.’
It says a lot when they can’t or won’t stock anything from PP.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Ghool wrote:
Deadnight wrote:
When p3 paint gets rare, that'll be my sad moment.

Need more greatcoat grey, pig iron and traitor green. :p


Oh but it is. Due to distribution issues, my LGS no longer carry’s the line.
Nor do they carry any PP product outside of what they pledge on KS.
I’m having to switch my main paint line I use because of this, and the PP paint rack has been relegated to the clearance section of the store, with a paltry few pots of colours no one uses.
I will not order directly from PP because weather concerns and freezing paint. And their shipping to Canada is ludicrous, not including getting hosed on the exchange rate.

My LGS has a slogan due to their size - ‘If it’s in print, we will try and stock it.’
It says a lot when they can’t or won’t stock anything from PP.


True. I usually but online from element games or wayland games when it comes to p3 - no local indie stocks them and its a shame since their paints are excellent.

greatest band in the universe: machine supremacy

"Punch your fist in the air and hold your Gameboy aloft like the warrior you are" 
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba




The Great State of New Jersey

just saw PP post on facebook that an upcoming Primecast will have "big news". Maybe mk4?

CoALabaer wrote:
Wargamers hate two things: the state of the game and change.
 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





That’s the rumor. July 26th
   
Made in us
Omnipotent Lord of Change





Albany, NY

Seeing counter-chatter that it'll be official Orgoth GenCon* release plans, but I'll add my voice to the hopefuls wishing for an MK4 announcement and/or cleaning up bloat.

*Which opens 9 days after this Primecast!

KOW BATREPS: BLOODFIRE
INSTAGRAM: @boss_salvage 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





It's hard not to feel like the new stuff has a fresh start nature to it. 3 new Warcasters for Cygnar alone has a heavy reboot vibe.
   
Made in us
Charing Cold One Knight





Sticksville, Texas

I would just love if they made Company Of Iron feel less like crap to play and gave it a new box set, an absolutely easy and low effort way to get people playing and introduce them to the Iron Kingdoms, and a decent way to learn the core concepts of the rules without having to worry about feats, Warcaster/Warlock rules and Focus/Fury, or having to watch your entire army be removed in a single round due to poor placement.

Brawlmachine looks fun, but I haven't been willing to drag up the interest locally to relearn the rules again, since it seems like so much has changed since we all stopped playing during Mk. III, and we all just shelved all our projects for the game.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




 NH Gunsmith wrote:
I would just love if they made Company Of Iron feel less like crap to play and gave it a new box set, an absolutely easy and low effort way to get people playing and introduce them to the Iron Kingdoms, and a decent way to learn the core concepts of the rules without having to worry about feats, Warcaster/Warlock rules and Focus/Fury, or having to watch your entire army be removed in a single round due to poor placement.


Hard disagree.respectfully of course!

To be fair, that isn't warmachine or hordes. And 'core concepts' minus feats warnouns, focus/fury idnt really 'core concepts' any more. You've just chopped out the heart of the game.The central 'core' of both games has alwsys been a duel between wizard characters and their toys and supporting troops. Company Of Iron wasn't great and imo while a skirmish game with a solo, 6 Iron fangs and a greyhound ternion would be awesome, imo it needs an entirely new rules set completely separate from the wmh 2d6+stat minus arm system.

Outside of that what's left imo is not very engaging. Sure, easy to learn but it's like trying to sell a car on the colour of the seat belt or pattern on the seat rather than its actual performance.

I'm all for tweaking and refocusing (pun intended) the wizard 'duel' aspect though - always felt, after having played other games (games like bushido, even the venerable lotr sbg or the flawed but very immersive fighting system in kill team) that 'taking turns to hit each other over the head' didn't feel as dynamic and interactive as it could be, as other duels in other systems could be, and imo that's worth looking at.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2022/07/14 12:46:45


greatest band in the universe: machine supremacy

"Punch your fist in the air and hold your Gameboy aloft like the warrior you are" 
   
Made in us
Omnipotent Lord of Change





Albany, NY

 LunarSol wrote:
It's hard not to feel like the new stuff has a fresh start nature to it. 3 new Warcasters for Cygnar alone has a heavy reboot vibe.
I know I've made enough Warcaster cracks about the new Cygnar designs ....... But if you told me that the new Cygnar, Khador and Orgoth were part of a WM mk4 I'd 100% believe it, and honestly it would help me vibe with the aesthetics more.

KOW BATREPS: BLOODFIRE
INSTAGRAM: @boss_salvage 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Boss Salvage wrote:
 LunarSol wrote:
It's hard not to feel like the new stuff has a fresh start nature to it. 3 new Warcasters for Cygnar alone has a heavy reboot vibe.
I know I've made enough Warcaster cracks about the new Cygnar designs ....... But if you told me that the new Cygnar, Khador and Orgoth were part of a WM mk4 I'd 100% believe it, and honestly it would help me vibe with the aesthetics more.


New khador stuff? I've not seen any links to this komrade can you assist?

greatest band in the universe: machine supremacy

"Punch your fist in the air and hold your Gameboy aloft like the warrior you are" 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





Deadnight wrote:
 NH Gunsmith wrote:
I would just love if they made Company Of Iron feel less like crap to play and gave it a new box set, an absolutely easy and low effort way to get people playing and introduce them to the Iron Kingdoms, and a decent way to learn the core concepts of the rules without having to worry about feats, Warcaster/Warlock rules and Focus/Fury, or having to watch your entire army be removed in a single round due to poor placement.


Hard disagree.respectfully of course!

To be fair, that isn't warmachine or hordes. And 'core concepts' minus feats warnouns, focus/fury idnt really 'core concepts' any more. You've just chopped out the heart of the game.The central 'core' of both games has alwsys been a duel between wizard characters and their toys and supporting troops. Company Of Iron wasn't great and imo while a skirmish game with a solo, 6 Iron fangs and a greyhound ternion would be awesome, imo it needs an entirely new rules set completely separate from the wmh 2d6+stat minus arm system.

Outside of that what's left imo is not very engaging. Sure, easy to learn but it's like trying to sell a car on the colour of the seat belt or pattern on the seat rather than its actual performance.

I'm all for tweaking and refocusing (pun intended) the wizard 'duel' aspect though - always felt, after having played other games (games like bushido, even the venerable lotr sbg or the flawed but very immersive fighting system in kill team) that 'taking turns to hit each other over the head' didn't feel as dynamic and interactive as it could be, as other duels in other systems could be, and imo that's worth looking at.


Yeah, Company of Iron just had no soul for me. If anything it highlights how unremarkable the combat in the game is without the resource mechanics to decide where to shift the bell curve. The cards provide some of it, but still just kind of leave you with a bland game of combat resolution. FWIW, that's also why reducing the scale of the game seems to enliven it again I feel. You get more emphasis on the battlegroup and all of the soul of the game really shines.
   
Made in us
Omnipotent Lord of Change





Albany, NY

Deadnight wrote:
New khador stuff? I've not seen any links to this komrade can you assist?
I've not been able to find any screen caps from the Primecasts that spoiled them, so I tore them out myself just now: https://imgur.com/gallery/16jPgYo

KOW BATREPS: BLOODFIRE
INSTAGRAM: @boss_salvage 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





Deadnight wrote:

New khador stuff? I've not seen any links to this komrade can you assist?


Sure thing!

Widowmaker Caster:

Spoiler:


80 mm Winter Guard Tank (Bison?)

Spoiler:


Dire Wolf Warjack

Spoiler:



Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Boss Salvage wrote:
Deadnight wrote:
New khador stuff? I've not seen any links to this komrade can you assist?
I've not been able to find any screen caps from the Primecasts that spoiled them, so I tore them out myself just now: https://imgur.com/gallery/16jPgYo


Bah, beat me to it! >.<

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/07/14 14:47:03


 
   
Made in ie
Regular Dakkanaut



Dublin, Ireland

One of PP's biggest issues is their refusal to move away from metal and resin miniatures into (usable) plastics across the range.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




Boss Salvage wrote:

Pics



LunarSol wrote:

Pics




Thanks konrades - well, they are certainly interesting at the very least. Khador seems to have leapt forward a bit in tech. Absolutely see the warcaster style there. Has the plot moved forward some years or something? I'll.accept mk4 chat on this quite easily. Reboot, maybe?


grahamdbailey wrote:One of PP's biggest issues is their refusal to move away from metal and resin miniatures into (usable) plastics across the range.


I'll.agree on the resin but metal is great. I'm putting together some bloodtrackers and metal iron fangs right now and man, they're still great models after 15 years.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/07/14 15:00:47


greatest band in the universe: machine supremacy

"Punch your fist in the air and hold your Gameboy aloft like the warrior you are" 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





Deadnight wrote:

Thanks konrades - well, they are certainly interesting at the very least. Khador seems to have leapt forward a bit in tech. Absolutely see the warcaster style there. Has the plot moved forward some years or something? I'll.accept mk4 chat on this quite easily. Reboot, maybe?


Yes, quite a bit has happened. Long story short they finally pulled the trigger on the "where magic comes from mystery" and unleashed the apocalypse on the world. A ton of existing characters died; those who didn't fled to the stars to build the Warcaster world, and pretty much every faction was left in shambles. The latest RPG books take place 15 years later after each nation has worked to rebuild itself.
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba




The Great State of New Jersey

Deadnight wrote:
Thanks konrades - well, they are certainly interesting at the very least. Khador seems to have leapt forward a bit in tech. Absolutely see the warcaster style there. Has the plot moved forward some years or something? I'll.accept mk4 chat on this quite easily. Reboot, maybe?


The "state of the game" is being advanced about 5 years post-Infernal invasion/Oblivion to the Orgoth invasion (or was it 5 years after the Orgoth re-appeared? I forget).

The irony about Khador is that according to one of the new Primecasts, Khador is suppsoed to be technologically behind all the other factions in the Iron Kingdoms at that point in the timeline as a result of getting pounded hard by the Infernals and Orgoth (who make landfall in Khador), as well as bein gin the midst of some sort of internal unrest or civil war.


CoALabaer wrote:
Wargamers hate two things: the state of the game and change.
 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





Deadnight wrote:
[
grahamdbailey wrote:One of PP's biggest issues is their refusal to move away from metal and resin miniatures into (usable) plastics across the range.


I'll.agree on the resin but metal is great. I'm putting together some bloodtrackers and metal iron fangs right now and man, they're still great models after 15 years.


The resins are really fantastic as well; just far too pricey for the scale of the game. The detail on them is really outstanding and they use metal in really smart ways to get around the issues with resin's brittle nature.

In terms of plastics; assuming we only accept sprues, they just don't have an affordable means of production. There's a reason that mostly comes down to GW and Asmodee (and Wyrd, through some soul selling ritual I'd wager). Their style also just does not conform well to the limitations of sprues. A lot of the big, chunky aesthetic and detailed fur linings and stuff demands too many undercuts to pull off. I'm hoping all this new stuff is going to be in Siocast, but given how bad of an experience they had with overseas production, I can definitely see why they might be hesitant to move their line over to a proprietary technology.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




LunarSol wrote:

Yes, quite a bit has happened. Long story short they finally pulled the trigger on the "where magic comes from mystery" and unleashed the apocalypse on the world. A ton of existing characters died; those who didn't fled to the stars to build the Warcaster world, and pretty much every faction was left in shambles. The latest RPG books take place 15 years later after each nation has worked to rebuild itself.


I was aware of the warcaster nk back-door pilot and the deaths (rip vlad) and that the orgoth had returned; wasn't aware there was a 15 year gap - thanks for that. That certainly gives time and space for a reboot or a reset. And considering how bloated the game is; it might be necessary now. Buy that's just speculating
.

LunarSol wrote:

The resins are really fantastic as well; just far too pricey for the scale of the game. The detail on them is really outstanding and they use metal in really smart ways to get around the issues with resin's brittle nature.


The plastics/resins were at best, mixed. The behemoth and grolar hips plastics were fantastic. The cheap restic crap they used for most of the infantry kits can go take a running jump as far as I am concerned - mold lines everywhere.

More of the former and less of the latter? That's me sold. But I doubt pp are in a place where they can use plastic production.

I say screw it, go back to mk1's 'eavy metal' approach and just metal all the time. ;p

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/07/14 15:35:55


greatest band in the universe: machine supremacy

"Punch your fist in the air and hold your Gameboy aloft like the warrior you are" 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





The PVC stuff is awful, no doubt, but that's completely different from their in house resin. That stuff is fantastic.

The few sprue kits they produced are very solid. The rivets are a little goofy, but overall well designed. It's just attempts to use that stuff on organic creatures that did no work at all.
   
Made in us
Omnipotent Lord of Change





Albany, NY

Metal is, sadly, becoming very, very expensive just for the raw materials. Plastic's expense rests more in tooling time and having a big enough market to justify the volume produced. Resin, preferably poured in-house, is likely the solution, as other mini companies have found.

For me this is fine, I really like PP's resin on the whole. I'd prefer if they just went all resin rather than resin-metal hybrids, tho I get the logic of casting small, sharp bits in metal.

KOW BATREPS: BLOODFIRE
INSTAGRAM: @boss_salvage 
   
Made in ca
Dipping With Wood Stain






 Boss Salvage wrote:
Deadnight wrote:
New khador stuff? I've not seen any links to this komrade can you assist?
I've not been able to find any screen caps from the Primecasts that spoiled them, so I tore them out myself just now: https://imgur.com/gallery/16jPgYo


And this is the main problem with their marketing - if you are not already a fan, and watching their proprietary podcast every week, you wouldn’t know about this stuff.
Where’s the hype? Where’s the photo bombs?
Why is this forum the first place I find out about anything new?
And that’s after a hardcore fan has to go and clip the new model shots themselves.
If they don’t do something about their marketing MK4 might struggle.

It’s crazy that there really isn’t any exposure or hype for anything new they’re putting out.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/07/14 16:40:18


 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





Their homepage has a ton of content these days, but its really not very well coded and very easy to miss updates. I have no idea who thought scrolling to the bottom to find an auto scrolling newsfeed was a good idea. It scrolls past the latest content before you get down to it.

I also get that IT is not their wheelhouse and they bought the site from some marketing company. It just needs updates.... badly. Outside of that I think the Primecast stuff is honestly pretty in line with what most companies are doing. They just need way more content on the channel than a monthly video to get traction on YouTube.
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut




 Ghool wrote:
 Boss Salvage wrote:
Deadnight wrote:
New khador stuff? I've not seen any links to this komrade can you assist?
I've not been able to find any screen caps from the Primecasts that spoiled them, so I tore them out myself just now: https://imgur.com/gallery/16jPgYo


And this is the main problem with their marketing - if you are not already a fan, and watching their proprietary podcast every week, you wouldn’t know about this stuff.
Where’s the hype? Where’s the photo bombs?
Why is this forum the first place I find out about anything new?
And that’s after a hardcore fan has to go and clip the new model shots themselves.
If they don’t do something about their marketing MK4 might struggle.

It’s crazy that there really isn’t any exposure or hype for anything new they’re putting out.


This ^^^

This really annoys the hell out of me. Its like, this is billed as the most major thing PP has done in ages, possibly a Mk4/reset/revamp in a age where the competition is fierce and its know that, for all the good points about the game, PP NEEDS to re-establish its presence or alt least a bit more market share. And what do we get. A single FB post. No promotion anywhere else. No other engagement with wargaming/hobby channels.

There is a great small game called Moonstone that you may of heard of. Its all over the wargaming socials because the producers (who are like 2 guys here in the UK) get on social media and promote the hell out of their stuff, engage content producers, send out promos and free models to painters and generally raise awareness. I dont play thier game but i know a hell of a lot about it and its models from this.

PP? Not a sausage. And im an active player enjoying the game in my local community. I love WM/H. But I think PP are Dog Poo at everything outside of what happens on the tabletop.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/07/14 18:38:03


 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran




Seattle, WA USA

Sunno wrote:


There is a great small game called Moonstone that you may of heard of. Its all over the wargaming socials because the producers (who are like 2 guys here in the UK) get on social media and promote the hell out of their stuff, engage content producers, send out promos and free models to painters and generally raise awareness. I dont play thier game but i know a hell of a lot about it and its models from this.

Kinda OT, but you really should try it out. It's a fantastic little game and you can download the basic rules, cards, and all the crap you need including standees to try it out. It's definitely in my top games right now.

More OT, 100% agree. If a small shop like Goblin King (the Moonstone guys, mostly Tom) can figure out how to generate buzz, then why in the feth can't a "more established" company like PP do so? I know Tom doesn't have a big budget, certainly not what we'd hope PP would have, but the guy breaks his back to get the word out. PP seems to just have this attitude of "well, the cool kids know about us, so that's enough." And in a way, they've always been like that.

As for whatever this big announcement is, I'd actually be surprised if it actually is as big as they are even making it out to be in their limited efforts to even talk about it. They may think it's "big news," but I would not be surprised if the overall market reaction is a big "meh."
   
Made in us
Rebel_Princess





PP never figured out marketing, nor where it was coming from when they had a windfall of success. The Press Gangers did the heavy lifting in this regard, and it seems many of them didn't realize the real value they were bringing to the company. One former PG I knew even said that PP had to cut the PG program because it was operating at a loss. Just because they couldn't directly quantify the value the PG program brought, I wouldn't be surprised to see a marked--if delayed--decline in retail sales across the board after the program was axed. I do think that axing the PG program was the beginning of the end, though. The PG program insulated the company from the consequences of not modernizing. As a marketer myself, it's pretty hard to really get an idea of how your company is truly perceived when you're in the fishbowl.

For what it's worth, talking to the original group of players I got into Warmachine with, who now play AoS and Infinity, they have clear interest in Warmachine ONLY if it's a full reboot and abandonment of the old models. They, like myself, have literally hundreds of Warmahordes models already, and we're ready to retire them. I'm getting kind of excited myself at the prospect--I really hope PP doesn't just keep MK3 going, hanging onto the promise of never invalidating old models just to appease a vanishing audience that hasn't bought anything new in 3 years anyway.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2022/07/14 20:57:36


 
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut




 Valander wrote:

Kinda OT, but you really should try it out. It's a fantastic little game and you can download the basic rules, cards, and all the crap you need including standees to try it out. It's definitely in my top games right now.


I had a few demo games of it and i agree its a really cool little game. Models are fantastic and fun. Everyone should have a look at it.

It just wasn't for me due to time restrictions. I play WM/H and I also play Malifaux which is in the same wheelhouse. Moonstone was great but not enough for me to drop Malifaux for.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Bloviator wrote:


For what it's worth, talking to the original group of players I got into Warmachine with, who now play AoS and Infinity, they have clear interest in Warmachine ONLY if it's a full reboot and abandonment of the old models. They, like myself, have literally hundreds of Warmahordes models already, and we're ready to retire them. I'm getting kind of excited myself at the prospect--I really hope PP doesn't just keep MK3 going, hanging onto the promise of never invalidating old models just to appease a vanishing audience that hasn't bought anything new in 3 years anyway.


I've kept most of my khador (cleared out a lot of stuff that wasnt doing anything - uhlan and chopped up conversion projects of the past) and over lockdown bought some odds and ends for modelling projects - retribution houseguard, steelhead cav and riflemen and am currently 'renovating' some old models that were stripped and boxed years ago - have some bloodtrackers, iron fangs to go and have just repainted a dozen doom reavers (used to have 48 of them for 'mad dogs of war'). I'm keeping the models because theyre still great and I'll use them - maybe not for wmh but I'll use them. However, I dont actually mind if I never field them in a game of wmh ever again.


When it comes to wmh I think I'd need to be in the same boat as you and your friends. It needs a shift- both to deal with the bloat in the rules/range and to catch up with more modern game design since wmh is very 90s. A 'soft' reboot or re-imagining would go a long way for me as well since I loved the game back when I played and I still greatly like the ip as a while.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/07/15 10:05:48


greatest band in the universe: machine supremacy

"Punch your fist in the air and hold your Gameboy aloft like the warrior you are" 
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba




The Great State of New Jersey

 Bloviator wrote:


For what it's worth, talking to the original group of players I got into Warmachine with, who now play AoS and Infinity, they have clear interest in Warmachine ONLY if it's a full reboot and abandonment of the old models. They, like myself, have literally hundreds of Warmahordes models already, and we're ready to retire them. I'm getting kind of excited myself at the prospect--I really hope PP doesn't just keep MK3 going, hanging onto the promise of never invalidating old models just to appease a vanishing audience that hasn't bought anything new in 3 years anyway.


Myself and the other guys in my small rump WMHDs community would 100% quit and walk away from PP if they did this. In my case, I have very large armies for Khador, Cygnar, Crucible Guard, Mercs, Convergence of Cyriss, Trollbloods, Legion of Everblight, Skorne, Grymkin, Blindwater Congregation, and Thornfall Alliance. The other guys are similarly in 3-6 factions each. We have thousands of dollars invested into the game and would continue to invest thousands more - unless PP basically says "yeah nah sorry all your stuff is worthless now".

CoALabaer wrote:
Wargamers hate two things: the state of the game and change.
 
   
 
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