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I think I understand the rule of LOS meaning that if you can see the model, skimmer behind land raider, then you can shoot it. My question then is, do players using skimmers have to base their skimmers on flying bases? If it is up to them, as I have seen in tourneys, then can I, the skimmer player, take off the flying bases during the game if I want to hide behind a tank? Is this legal?

Darrian

...sigh... Yup, we're the ones taking things out of context again...


P1: You may not use the model's literal height for LOS - when your LOS crosses some terrain features or close combat - page 7

P2: Models have size levels. Monstrous creatures and Vehicles are size level 3

P3: Size levels are only relevant when LOS crosses Area Terrain or close combats. Page 7 and 20.

C1: The only height a vehicle can have is it's size level - but this is only relevant when LOS crosses area terrain or a close combat.



P1: Vehicles are size level 3

P2: Vehicles always block LOS

P3: Sizes only apply when LOS crosses area terrain or close combats

C1: Vehicles count as size level 3 when LOS to or from them crosses area terrain or a close combat, and will block at Size level 3 if involved in a close combat.



P1: You may shoot over vehicles if LOS can be drawn over or around them.

P2: You may only use the vehicles size level if LOS crosses area terrain or a close combat

P3: You have a clear LOS if the firer or the target are taller than the intervening models/terrain, when LOS crosses area terrain or a close combat.

C1: Snooggums needs to have another read of the LOS rules..


Darrian13
My question then is, do players using skimmers have to base their skimmers on flying bases?
Page 6 of the rulebook. If a model is supplied with a base, it must be mounted on a base at least as large as the one it is supplied with.


then can I, the skimmer player, take off the flying bases during the game if I want to hide behind a tank?
There is no rule allowing you to remove a model's base in the middle of a game.

Posted By happypants on 06/27/2006 2:49 PM
I find it amazing that everyone thinks that there is only one way to play this.

Snoogums: You are right.
Everyone else: You are right.

The problem with the 'anti-size' argument is that it makes a whole lot of other sticky situations. Including but not limited to:
1. A destroyed rhino becomes sz3 terrain and instead of just blocking LOS it blocks infinately high but only after it is destroyed.
2. Pulling stupid stunts like shooting through the legs of walkers.

 

Here here.  On a RAW basis I think the Everyone Else is "legally" correct.  However, from a playability perspective the Snoogums maneuver is easier and avoids mucking about with LOS arguments essentially saying "hah I can see you" "No you can't" "uh huh I can" blah blah.

Hey I brought butter for the popcorn. Anyone bring some M&M's?

Posted By insaniak on 06/27/2006 3:51 PM
...sigh... Yup, we're the ones taking things out of context again...


P1: You may not use the model's literal height for LOS - when your LOS crosses some terrain features or close combat - page 7

P2: Models have size levels. Monstrous creatures and Vehicles are size level 3

P3: Size levels are only relevant when LOS crosses Area Terrain or close combats. Page 7 and 20.

C1: The only height a vehicle can have is it's size level - but this is only relevant when LOS crosses area terrain or a close combat.

 

Again you are reading it backwards. They always have the size level property.  The mention of only mattering for close combat or cerrtain terrain is made after the statement that you cannot use the literal height. This means the literal height can never be used ever. Sure, in general use the size levels will only matter when shooting over close combat or area terrain. But later in the book pg 21 there is an exception for size level 3 vehicles which will always block LOS. So as an exception to only mattering in close combat, vehicles always block LOS.

All of your other blather is the same crap, you spout one line that mauleed hounds over and over instead of actually addressing the points. Vehicles have an exception to the only counting for close combat.

Posted By snooggums on 06/27/2006 4:02 PM

>Again you are reading it backwards. They always have the size level property. The mention of only mattering for close combat or cerrtain terrain is made after the statement that you cannot use the literal height. This means the literal height can never be used ever. Sure, in general use the size levels will only matter when shooting over close combat or area terrain. But later in the book pg 21 there is an exception for size level 3 vehicles which will always block LOS. So as an exception to only mattering in close combat, vehicles always block LOS.

All of your other blather is the same crap, you spout one line that mauleed hounds over and over instead of actually addressing the points. Vehicles have an exception to the only counting for close combat.

So, Snooggums, you are saying that the vehicles are always size 3, but that their size three only matters when they are in close combat? Specifically, what you have said in your post is that you cannot use the literal height of the model. Let's agree with you on that for the sake of this discussion, for right now. So what height is it? Well, as you said, in general use the size levels will only matter when shooting over close combat or area terrain. I do think you need to reread page 21, your conclusory statement does not seem to fully capture that page's rules.

In short, under your argument, you don't use the vehicles profile, but the size levels only apply in two circumstances, when shooting over close combat or area terrain. I will posit that vehicles are not area terrain, and therefore, unless the vehicle is in close combat, you don't use the vehicles actual profile, and you don't use its size characteristic. Therefore, you can freely shoot through vehicles, because they have no blocking characteristic. Under your argument, as much as I am following you.

Posted By Antonin on 06/27/2006 4:25 PM

Posted By snooggums on 06/27/2006 4:02 PM

Again you are reading it backwards. They always have the size level property. The mention of only mattering for close combat or cerrtain terrain is made after the statement that you cannot use the literal height. This means the literal height can never be used ever. Sure, in general use the size levels will only matter when shooting over close combat or area terrain. But later in the book pg 21 there is an exception for size level 3 vehicles which will always block LOS. So as an exception to only mattering in close combat, vehicles always block LOS.

All of your other blather is the same crap, you spout one line that mauleed hounds over and over instead of actually addressing the points. Vehicles have an exception to the only counting for close combat.

So, Snooggums, you are saying that the vehicles are always size 3, but that their size three only matters when they are in close combat? Specifically, what you have said in your post is that you cannot use the literal height of the model. Let's agree with you on that for the sake of this discussion, for right now. So what height is it? Well, as you said, in general use the size levels will only matter when shooting over close combat or area terrain. I do think you need to reread page 21, your conclusory statement does not seem to fully capture that page's rules.

In short, under your argument, you don't use the vehicles profile, but the size levels only apply in two circumstances, when shooting over close combat or area terrain. I will posit that vehicles are not area terrain, and therefore, unless the vehicle is in close combat, you don't use the vehicles actual profile, and you don't use its size characteristic. Therefore, you can freely shoot through vehicles, because they have no blocking characteristic. Under your argument, as much as I am following you.

Well if all vehicles are size 3, does that mean I can take my 3 warbuggies, put them bumper to bumper, and screen my looted Russ since they are ALL size 3? Really anything other then acutal size for the purposes of SHOOTING is plain stupid, use the real LOS and just play the darn game. If anyone tried to tell me that a rhino could block LOS to a land raider, I would be sorely tempted to demonstrate to them the effect of a "to scale" imperator titan making a stomp attack on their model.....

This just occurred to me that I may be totally cheating my opponents, if a Sz3 Skimmer is behind a Sz3 Tank is LOS blocked to it?

And you may find yourself living in a shotgun shack
And you may find yourself in another part of the world
And you may find yourself behind the wheel of a large automobile

Snoogums will no doubt pop in to entertain us once more with his made-up version of how he thinks the rules should be, but for those using the actual LOS rules as detailed on page 20 and 21 of the rulebook, sizes are only relevant when drawing a LOS into or through Area Terrain or close combats.

And you may find yourself in a beautiful house, with a beautiful wife
And you may ask yourself, well, how did I get here?

Both ways of playing are right and you have the choice of which way to go. So I will re-phrase the question.

Letting the days go by
Let the water hold me down
Letting the days go by
Water flowing underground
Into the blue again
After the moneys gone

The rules explicitly say that you can shoot over a vehicle if you can see over it.

Once in a lifetime
Water flowing underground

You cannot use the literal height when determining LOS per page 7. That is a tired argument.

And you may ask yourself, how do I work this?
And you may ask yourself, where is that large automobile?

As a note, the rulez boyz and gw head staff at the battle bunker (HQ) in Oakville also play with size levels and tournament play is accepted both ways.

And you may tell yourself, this is not my beautiful house
And you may tell yourself, this is not my beautiful wife

No. What's tired is the fact that you keep ignoring where the rules say that size classifications are only relevant when you want to see over Area Terrain or an ongoing close combat.

Letting the days go by
Let the water hold me down
Letting the days go by
Water flowing underground
Into the blue again
After the money's gone
Once in a lifetime
Water flowing underground.

Ack! Not this again! I guess I will join in this time.

Same as it ever was
Same as it ever was

Page seven also states that you cannot use the literal height of the model for LOS.

Same as it ever was
Same as it ever was

BRING ON THE MAGIC CYLINDER!!!!

Same as it ever was
Same as it ever was

Your point is ignored because it's irrelevant and proves nothing. Accept it, and move on.

Same as it ever was
Same as it ever was

Feel free to disprove.

Same as it ever was
Same as it ever was

The book specifically says you may shoot over vehicles. There's really not much more to it than that.

Water dissolving and water removing
There is water at the bottom of the ocean
Carry the water at the bottom of the ocean
Remove the water at the bottom of the ocean

The point of premises and conclusions is that the premises be true and lead to the conclusions you've listed.

Clearly this isn't the case with your posts.

Letting the days go by
Let the water hold me down
Letting the days go by
Water flowing underground
Into the blue again
After the money's gone

...sigh... Yup, we're the ones taking things out of context again...

Once in a lifetime
Water flowing underground.

I find it amazing that everyone thinks that there is only one way to play this.

And you may ask yourself, what is that beautiful house?
And you may ask yourself, where does that highway go?
And you may ask yourself, am I right or am I wrong?

So: No literal heights->Size levels given->Size level LOS ecxplained->Most models are size level 2->Model Size levels matter in close combat-> most models don't block LOS except in close combat->Vehicles block LOS always.

And you may tell yourself, my god, what have I done?

In short, under your argument, you don't use the vehicles profile, but the size levels only apply in two circumstances, when shooting over close combat or area terrain. I will posit that vehicles are not area terrain, and therefore, unless the vehicle is in close combat, you don't use the vehicles actual profile, and you don't use its size characteristic. Therefore, you can freely shoot through vehicles, because they have no blocking characteristic. Under your argument, as much as I am following you.

Letting the days go by
Let the water hold me down
Letting the days go by
Water flowing underground
Into the blue again
In the silent water
Under the rocks and stones
There is water underground.

Hey I brought butter for the popcorn. Anyone bring some M&M's?

Time is not holding us
Time is not after us

They always have the size level property. The mention of only mattering for close combat or cerrtain terrain is made after the statement that you cannot use the literal height. This means the literal height can never be used ever.

Selective reading from Mr Snooggums again.

Page 7 does NOT say that you can not EVER use the literal height. It merely points out that at some times the rules need to take into account the height of the model and the terrain.

Here's the actual quote:
"The rules will often have to take account of the height of the models and terrain features. This is necessary to determine whether troops can see over obstructions. This does not mean literally their actual height..."

Nowhere there, or in the passage that follows, does it claim that you NEVER use the model's actual height. It merely mentions that the rules 'often' don't use the actual height, and then outlines when this applies. ie: when drawing a LOS into or through close combats or 'certain terrain features.'

But later in the book pg 21 there is an exception for size level 3 vehicles which will always block LOS.

Yes, the vehicle blocks LOS. This has nothing to do with the Size of the vehicle, because page 7 tells us that the Size only becomes relevant when LOS is traced through 'certain terrain features' or a close combat, and page 20 further defines Sizes as only applying for Area Terrain and close combats.

Should you actually read the rules in order instead of pgs 20,21,6,7 then it becomes more clear. Pg 6 bases are explained. Pg 7 heights are given, and literal heights are not allowed for LOS.

Or rather, page 7, heights are given, and specifically defined as only applying in certain situations.

You're building your whole argument on a misreading of page 7. NOWHERE does it say you NEVER use the model's literal height.

Here's the actual quote:
"The rules will often have to take account of the height of the models and terrain features. This is necessary to determine whether troops can see over obstructions. This does not mean literally their actual height..."

Nowhere there, or in the passage that follows, does it claim that you NEVER use the model's actual height. It merely mentions that the rules 'often' don't use the actual height, and then outlines when this applies. ie: when drawing a LOS into or through close combats or 'certain terrain features.'

Wait, lets see that again:

"The rules will often have to take account of the height of the models and terrain features. This is necessary to determine whether troops can see over obstructions. This does not mean literally their actual height..."

So when determining if a model can see over obstructions I use their height but not their physical height. Yes I see how that means I use their physical height. Since I'm not trying to shoot over an obstruction, just a vehicle that is obstructing my LOS then I can use the model's physical height like it just said. Oh wait it DID say I couldn't use their height to see over an obstruction like a vehicle.

Oh it only matters in close combat! That's right since vehicles always block LOS they magically become literal height when they are obstructing a view out of combat because the rules say to lean over and see if something is between the model and the target. Sure the vehicle is between me and the target and when looking over obstructions and always blocks LOS so I can't use the literal height that obviously means I can now use the literal height. Genius! No wait, slowed!

I dub the "Magical Silhouette" for using literal size of the model when the rules say you don't.

This arguement will not end. The right side knows their right and wont ever convince the other side. The other side will never admit they are wrong, or they truthfully believe they are right. I advocate ending this before it becomes a 7 page mess of quotes, insults, and copius amounts of poo.

Btw Hellfury, the game One looks very fun and challenging, one question though. Does the D1 block LOS or can the gold guy see past it.

So when determining if a model can see over obstructions I use their height but not their physical height. Yes I see how that means I use their physical height. Since I'm not trying to shoot over an obstruction, just a vehicle that is obstructing my LOS then I can use the model's physical height like it just said. Oh wait it DID say I couldn't use their height to see over an obstruction like a vehicle.

It's amazing how often you manage to completely ignore entire sections of the rules, despite claiming that we're the ones taking rules out of context.

The section quoted states that you will often need to compare the height of models and terrain features using something other than their actual height.

It then goes on to explain when you need to do this: when drawing a LOS through 'some terrain features' and close combats.


It's really that simple. Yes, a vehicle is technically an 'obstacle' if it is in the way. Page 7 doesn't care. It's talking about terrain and close combats. That's why it refers specifically to terrain and close combats. The rules for drawing a LOS over or past vehicles are given on page 20... the same page that for the second time in the book mentions that Size categories only apply when LOS crosses area terrain or close combats.


Stop picking and choosing which parts of the rules you want to read and it all starts making a lot more sense.

Here's a question, snoogie-bear: if your way is correct, and it's so obvious by the rules, then why do so many people disagree and continue to disagree? How does this so radically change the game that so many people would oppose the difference to save their "advantage"?

If you had any bit of reason on your side, this wouldn't have gone so long.

I think the pertinent points of this argument have been covered yet again.