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This just occurred to me that I may be totally cheating my opponents, if a Sz3 Skimmer is behind a Sz3 Tank is LOS blocked to it?

Only if LOS is blocked.

If you can see the skimmer, you can shoot it.


Snoogums will no doubt pop in to entertain us once more with his made-up version of how he thinks the rules should be, but for those using the actual LOS rules as detailed on page 20 and 21 of the rulebook, sizes are only relevant when drawing a LOS into or through Area Terrain or close combats.

At all other times you use true LOS, so if you can see it, you can shoot it.

You know, they didn't put in the size classification thing for vehicles for entertainment value. Both ways of playing are right and you have the choice of which way to go. So I will re-phrase the question.

If you are using size levels for your vehicles and a skimmer is behind a tank, can it be seen?

You know, they didn't put in the size classification thing for vehicles for entertainment value

Of course they didn't. They put it in so that if your LOS crosses Area Terrain or a close combat, you can determine whether or not you can see the vehicle, or the vehicle can see you.

Both ways of playing are right and you have the choice of which way to go.

Which ways? The way explained in the rules, and the one that some people choose to use instead?

Of course you have the right to play with whatever house rules you want. You didn't ask about house rules, though. You asked what the rules said.

If you are using size levels for your vehicles and a skimmer is behind a tank, can it be seen?

For a LOS to exist when the Size categories are relevant, the target or the shooter needs to be larger than the obstacle. Since there is no Size 4, a Size 3 target behind a Size 3 obstacle can not be seen.

The rules explicitly say that you can shoot over a vehicle if you can see over it. So yes, you can shoot it.

 

Posted By insaniak on 06/26/2006 8:18 PM

Snoogums will no doubt pop in to entertain us once more with his made-up version of how he thinks the rules should be

You can kiss my buttocks if you pay me 5 bucks. You'll still have to spell my name right or you will forfeit the five bucks.

happypants: Although size levels "only apply to close combat" vehicles "always block LOS" in the same section. It also says you can shoot over vehicles. Look at the diagrams in the book and make your own decision or play how your local group plays.

Although size levels "only apply to close combat" vehicles "always block LOS" in the same section

You say that as if it is in some way a contradiction...

Posted by snooggums on 06/26/2006 11:04 PM
happypants: Although size levels "only apply to close combat" vehicles "always block LOS" in the same section.

Yes, vehicles block line of sight. The empty air above them does not.

So basically you are saying Tau skimmers should just have landing gear modelled and not be on the stupid stand so we can hid behind vehicles.

Heck all skimmers can always use a shortest peg and so be hidden by terrain easily.

(This is why my gaming group just goes with the area terrain use for everything. It makes it so that some tanks don't get an unfair advantage.)

@midnight, it also helps because GW stuff is not all to the same scale, and while a dreadnought is pretty much to proper scale, a rhino is about half the size it should be.

As a note, the rulez boyz and gw head staff at the battle bunker (HQ) in Oakville also play with size levels and tournament play is accepted both ways.

For those who are positive that there is only one way to play it 'by the rules'

I
I
I
V

Posted By Ghaz on 06/26/2006 11:11 PM

Posted by snooggums on 06/26/2006 11:04 PM
happypants: Although size levels "only apply to close combat" vehicles "always block LOS" in the same section.

Yes, vehicles block line of sight. The empty air above them does not.

You cannot use the literal height when determining LOS per page 7. That is a tired argument.

Hey Snooggums, you and I agree on something! Woot!

Posted by snooggums on 06/27/2006 10:03 AM
You cannot use the literal height when determining LOS per page 7. That is a tired argument

No. What's tired is the fact that you keep ignoring where the rules say that size classifications are only relevant when you want to see over Area Terrain or an ongoing close combat.

Posted By Ghaz on 06/27/2006 9:56 AM

Posted by snooggums on 06/27/2006 10:03 AM
You cannot use the literal height when determining LOS per page 7. That is a tired argument

No. What's tired is the fact that you keep ignoring where the rules say that size classifications are only relevant when you want to see over Area Terrain or an ongoing close combat.

Well, you can't use size levels except in close combat normally, however the size level 3 models (vehicles and monstrous creatures) always block LOS as an exception to close combat only so therefore would block LOS. If you use the literal height of the blocking model and the model you are shooting at then you are a dirty cheater. You sure sound like a dirty cheater.

I will however use the line "If the shooting model or the target are larger than the intervening models then you have a clear LOS" to shoot, thanks.

Posted by snooggums on 06/27/2006 11:32 AM
however the size level 3 models (vehicles and monstrous creatures) always block LOS as an exception to close combat only so therefore would block LOS.

Mind quoting this imaginary rule. The vehicle and the monstrous creature block line of sight. Empty air does not block line of sight. That is how you can draw a line of sight over those models as explained on page 20 of the Warhammer 40,000 4th edition rulebook where they actually discuss the line of sight rules and not on page 7.

Ack! Not this again! I guess I will join in this time.

Pg 20 and 21 are very clear that you use true LOS. I don't even understand how any other conclusion can be drawn from the book (that was not an invitation to explain it, I've heard the counter arguement to true LOS before).

This will most likely be a 3-5 page thread.

BRING ON THE MAGIC CYLINDER!!!!

Posted By Ghaz on 06/27/2006 10:37 AM

Posted by snooggums on 06/27/2006 11:32 AM
however the size level 3 models (vehicles and monstrous creatures) always block LOS as an exception to close combat only so therefore would block LOS.

Mind quoting this imaginary rule. The vehicle and the monstrous creature block line of sight. Empty air does not block line of sight. That is how you can draw a line of sight over those models as explained on page 20 of the Warhammer 40,000 4th edition rulebook where they actually discuss the line of sight rules and not on page 7.

They DO discuss LOS on page seven. Page seven also states that you cannot use the literal height of the model for LOS. I've pointed this out a freakin zillion times and you ignore it everytime. If the firer or the target are larger than the interveining models then you have a clear LOS per page seven. Models won't normally block LOS, but monstrous creatures and vehicles will always block LOS per page 20, we agree on this. Howeveryou are using the literal height to determine were the "air over the model" starts. That makes you a cheater. I will simply use the size levels and know that the size levels won't block LOS unless they are in close combat OR are a monstrous creature that always blocks LOS.

Seriously, how clear does "you cannot use a model's literal height" need to be?

The book specifically says you may shoot over vehicles. There's really not much more to it than that.

It says you can, but doesn't give you the opportunity to. If you use what's his name's level 4 terrain feature from White Dwarf you would be able to.

Your point is ignored because it's irrelevant and proves nothing. Accept it, and move on.

Posted By lord_sutekh on 06/27/2006 1:26 PM
Your point is ignored because it's irrelevant and proves nothing. Accept it, and move on.

How is it irrelevant? I'll put in the premise and conclusion form, take into account that "Vehicles" is clearly not including bikes per page 20:

P1: You may not use the model's literal height for LOS - page 7

P2: Models have size levels. Monstrous creatures and Vehicles are size level 3

C1: The only height a vehicle can have is it's size level

 

P1: Vehicles are size level 3

P2: Vehicles always block LOS

C1: Vehicles block at size level 3

 

P1: You may shoot over vehicles if LOS can be drawn over or around them.

P2: You may only use the vehicles size level

P3: You have a clear LOS if the firer or the target are taller than the intervening models/terrain.

C1 While you are allowed to fire over vehicles, nothing in the game is tall enough to do so with the provided LOS rules. 

The point of premises and conclusions is that the premises be true and lead to the conclusions you've listed.

Clearly this isn't the case with your posts.

/popcorn

Posted By mauleed on 06/27/2006 1:52 PM

The point of premises and conclusions is that the premises be true and lead to the conclusions you've listed.

Clearly this isn't the case with your posts.

Feel free to disprove.

Posted By DarkTemplars on 06/27/2006 1:53 PM
/popcorn

Make it a large, I'll grab the suds.

I find it amazing that everyone thinks that there is only one way to play this.

Snoogums: You are right.
Everyone else: You are right.

The problem with the 'anti-size' argument is that it makes a whole lot of other sticky situations. Including but not limited to:
1. A destroyed rhino becomes sz3 terrain and instead of just blocking LOS it blocks infinately high but only after it is destroyed.
2. Pulling stupid stunts like shooting through the legs of walkers.

I think I found a game for snoogums.

Posted By Hellfury on 06/27/2006 2:50 PM
I think I found a game for snoogums.

 

Thank you for discussing the question as opposed to simply flinging personal insults about things you dont actually understand. I for one play the way that I support on a weekly basis with other literate game players in my area.

Posters here will not do anything other than pull quotes out of context and say "The rules say I can even though I can't find a situation where it is possible" or throw personal attacks and flaunt other people's work from other websites instead of refuting a logical claim. It took me a while to undertand that people here ignore the first part of the book, you know, the one that gives rules for models, and instead start their game on page 20 and go backwards if there is terrain or close combat. Somehow they cannot see that "Only in close combat" and "always blocks" are overlapping conditions. They even think that things like Vehicles can be used literally while ignoring a rule at the beginning of the book that says they can't, then proceed to ignore anyone that points this out. While you may think I am playing some game by myself I am not, and wether or not I ever have any support on an internet board I would still point out the errors of others in a discussion section because that is the point of the section.

If you'd rather have some circle jerk where everyone just acts like some high school popularity contest controls the rules instead of thinking for yourself, have at it. Anyone with an open mind can see that you are just trolling for acceptance.

Posted By happypants on 06/27/2006 2:49 PM
I find it amazing that everyone thinks that there is only one way to play this.

Snoogums: You are right.
Everyone else: You are right.

The problem with the 'anti-size' argument is that it makes a whole lot of other sticky situations. Including but not limited to:
1. A destroyed rhino becomes sz3 terrain and instead of just blocking LOS it blocks infinately high but only after it is destroyed.
2. Pulling stupid stunts like shooting through the legs of walkers.

Um, you haven't read many threads here have you? Please don't say you are on my side and instead just come up with silly stuff on your own, thanks.