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So in other words you refuse to answer the question?

I am not going to cause this post to run to multiple pages with us going back and forth.

I think that you are wrong and obviously you think I am wrong, so we will just have to agree to disagree on this and save much angst and argument.

Niiai, I would suggest that you discuss with your opponent before starting a game. My position is quite obvious here.

Cheers

Andrew

 AndrewC wrote:
So in other words you refuse to answer the question?

I am not going to cause this post to run to multiple pages with us going back and forth.

I think that you are wrong and obviously you think I am wrong, so we will just have to agree to disagree on this and save much angst and argument.

Niiai, I would suggest that you discuss with your opponent before starting a game. My position is quite obvious here.

Cheers

Andrew

I answered your question, you just didn't like the answer. You refused to answer mine.

Andrew each weapon counts as a seperate attack for eligibility purposes. A rail gun is a seperate attack to a smart missile system

The closest model then varies according to a number of criteria.

For example minimum/maximum ranges, being able to to see non LOS models, obscuring terrain and Look out sir/ some versions of body guard rules can all modify which models are eligible targets.

It is perfectly possible for different guns and even the same guns on different models to have different models eligible

Therefore the closest eligible model may vary on a model/gun basis.

The motka wording simplified functions as

Each time a model shoots a weapon at the closest eligible target within the distance specified on the range table improve the AP by 1 and reroll a wound of 1

The only complexity is that eligibility for montka is checked when it "makes the attacks" which is at the number of attacks step not the select targets step.

Core rules
"NUMBER OF ATTACKS
When a model shoots a ranged weapon, it will make a number of attacks. You make one hit roll for each attack being made (see Making Attacks, page 18).
The number of attacks that a model makes with a ranged weapon is equal to the number written on that weapon’s profile after its type."

Montka clearly refers to "Each time a model in this unit makes a ranged attack" and you only make a ranged attack at the number of attacks step.

This has the practical implication that you could expect montka to apply when you target the weapons but it doesn't apply when the weapon resolves because models have been removed and it is no longer the nearest eligible target.

So in other words you lock in your targets then check eligibility for montka as you resolve each weapon for each weapon.


DHughman

With that interpretation in another senario I can target something close and visible and something far away and visible and get the benefit of Mont'ka on both of them providing the first target dies?

Update: This confuses me a lot. If the closest unit is a multi model unit, is it enough to qualify for nont'ka if only the visible models are killed, but the unit has not died? (Probably better to remove the units that outside of line of sight, no.)

 Niiai wrote:
With that interpretation in another senario I can target something close and visible and something far away and visible and get the benefit of Mont'ka on both of them providing the first target dies?

Update: This confuses me a lot. If the closest unit is a multi model unit, is it enough to qualify for nont'ka if only the visible models are killed, but the unit has not died? (Probably better to remove the units that outside of line of sight, no.)

No, because eligibility is checked at the start of the shooting sequence. So at that point the first unit is the closest for all weapons.

However, eligibility is checked independently for each weapon at that point. Therefor I agree with Malus - the closest eligible target can be different for different weapons.

Yes but there always the risk it doesn't die and you wouldn't get montka on the second target

As to your update

The question is it still the closest eligible unit so that would depend on the gun

Best explained with a worked example

E.g. I have 2 los guns and one non-los

I target the 1st los at the nearest unit hoping I kill it and the second two guns at the next nearest

First gun makes attacks checks eligibility fires with montka and kills enough models to put it out of los but not kill it

2nd gun requires los of sight when it makes its attacks eligibility is checked it hits the next closest eligible unit with montka

3rd gun does not require los when it makes its attacks eligibility is checked the original target is closer and so attacks are made without montka


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 kirotheavenger wrote:

 Niiai wrote:
With that interpretation in another senario I can target something close and visible and something far away and visible and get the benefit of Mont'ka on both of them providing the first target dies?

Update: This confuses me a lot. If the closest unit is a multi model unit, is it enough to qualify for nont'ka if only the visible models are killed, but the unit has not died? (Probably better to remove the units that outside of line of sight, no.)

No, because eligibility is checked at the start of the shooting sequence. So at that point the first unit is the closest for all weapons.

However, eligibility is checked independently for each weapon at that point. Therefor I agree with Malus - the closest eligible target can be different for different weapons.

No eligibility at the time of targeting your weapons has no bearing on montka

Montka explicitly checks eligibility when you make the attacks not when you target (it still checks when you target as normal)

Just because one rule checks eligibility doesn't mean another rule can't

"Each time a model in this unit makes a ranged attack"

Which as demonstrated is at a later step than targeting and so on an individual weapon basis

"that targets the closest eligible enemy unit within the range shown in the table below"

So eligibility is rechecked otherwise you have no way of knowing if its eligible at this point given your after targeting and the board could have changed

I will just not mention this conversation when I play vs my Tau opponent I think.

 AndrewC wrote:
I am not going to cause this post to run to multiple pages with us going back and forth.

Irony!

This thread reminds me of the question that someone asked, if im engaged in melee in shooting round and i kill them all with pistols, can i then still shoot remainnig weapons now they are not engaged.
The answer is no, the shooting had to be delcared first and there is also a rule for shooting only pistol or regular weapons.
(there is a grey area with a shoot twice strat 'rapid fire').

If that was the case then, now all of the shooting should be declared for a unit before it takes place.
Closest elegible unit would also depend on the weapon and LOS requirements (for it to be eliglble).

Straight form core rules shooting phase:
"When you select a unit to shoot with, you select targets and resolve attacks with any or all ranged weapons that models in that unit are equipped with"

"Select Targets
When a unit shoots, you must select the target unit(s) for all of the ranged weapons its models are making attacks with before any attacks are resolved."

"when you select a target unit you must declare which weapons will target that unit before any attacks are resolved. If any of these weapons has more than one profile that you must choose between, you must also declare which profile is being used."

And pasting in the rest as it seems to have come up in this thread:
"Only enemy units can be chosen as the target for an attack. In order to target an enemy unit, at least one model in that unit must be within range (i.e. within the distance of the Range characteristic) of the weapon being used and be visible to the shooting model. If unsure, get a look from behind the firing model to see if any part of the target is visible. For the purposes of determining visibility, a model can see through other models in its unit. If there are no eligible targets for a weapon then that weapon cannot shoot. If this is the case for all of a unit’s ranged weapons, then that unit is not eligible to shoot with.

If you have selected more than one target for your unit to shoot at, you must resolve all the attacks against one target before moving on to the next target. If your unit is shooting more than one ranged weapon at a target, and those weapons have different characteristics profiles, then after you have resolved attacks with one of those weapons you must, if any other weapons with the same characteristics profile are also being shot at that unit, resolve those attacks before resolving any attacks against the target unit with a weapon that has a different characteristics profile.

Note that so long as at least one model in the target unit was visible to the shooting model and in range of its weapon when that unit was selected as the target, that weapon’s attacks are always made against the target unit, even if no models in the target unit remain visible to or in range of it when you come to resolve them (this can happen because of models being destroyed and removed from the battlefield as the result of resolving the shots with other weapons in the shooting model’s unit first)."

The problem with your answer is that the select targets step has exactly zero to do with the montka rule and therefore the montka rule has nothing to do with your pistols tangent. yes the select targets step determines what you can target in the first place but what you can target in the first place has no impact on whether montka applies



Montka
"Each time a model in this unit makes a ranged attack that targets the closest eligible enemy unit within the range shown in the table below"



The montka rule checks eligibility when "a unit makes a ranged attack".

This occurs in the "making attacks" step

(Making attacks is a specific point in the core rules not an overarching term from target selection onwards which i think is what confuses people, that and just because eligibility is normally checked in the select targets step, doesn't mean it cant also be checked outside of that step, if you are told to do so).

The making attacks step is significantly after target selection and at that point you are resolving specific weapons




So for montka the process is normal up to the making attacks step then

When you get to making attacks step check if the attack being made targets the closest eligible unit and apply montka if it is.

I'd also point out that Battlesuits have an explicit exemption the shooting in combat rules.

Battlesuits can shoot at units engaged with them in combat with any non-blast weapons. They can also split fire between engaged units and non-engaged units but if they are still engaged after resolving the shooting against the units engaging them, they cannot make the shots against units not engaged with them.

So, if your crisis squad equipped with 2 flamers and an AFP (a blast weapon) is engaged, it can target its flamers at the engaged units and the AFP at another enemy unit in range. If the flamers cause enough casualties that the crisis are no longer engaged after resolving those attacks, the AFP can fire. If not, the AFP cannot fire.

And for mont'ka purposes, the unit engaged with the crisis team are not the closest eligible target for the AFP attacks, since the crisis team cannot fire blast weapons at units in engagement range, but they are for the flamers.

Of course, this also means that if your squad of crisis suits is engaged by two enemy units, both of those units could be the closest eligible target for mont'ka for weapons which can shoot in combat (which for crisis suits is every weapon but the AFP).

In relation yo your last paragraph thats wrong

they won't because montka as quoted

Montka
"Each time a model in this unit makes a ranged attack that targets the closest eligible enemy unit within the range shown in the table below"

Resolves on a model per model basis during the making attacks step. so if you fire all your flamers at one of the two engaged unit.

Some of your models will have that unit as the closest model and some will have the other unit as the closest model.

Only those models that have the target as the closest eligible unit will benefit from montka

Also if the afp can fire because the unit that was engaged is wiped then it could potentially benefit from motka because this is checked when it makes attacks not selects targets

True, changed "will" for "could".

If you have a crisis model with two enemy units with a model in base contact with it, then both units are the closest eligible target for guns which can shoot in melee is what I was trying to put across.

Yes on a model can be equidistant a

A Town Called Malus wrote:True, changed "will" for "could".

If you have a crisis model with two enemy units with a model in base contact with it, then both units are the closest eligible target for guns which can shoot in melee is what I was trying to put across.

U02dah4 wrote:Yes on a model can be equidistant a

No

Measuring Distances P199 of the BRB;

If a rule refers to the closest unit or model, and two or more are equidistant, then the player who is controlling the unit that is using the rule in question selects which unit is the closest for the purposes of resolving that rule.

Or are you saying that montka also ignores that rule?

I'm saying a unit can be equidistant its controller would then chose

I read the posts as you could claim Montka against each unit. If thats a reading comprehension fail on my behalf I apologise.

U02dah4 wrote:
I'm saying a unit can be equidistant its controller would then chose

Its impossible for two or more units to be equidistant.

 p5freak wrote:

U02dah4 wrote:
I'm saying a unit can be equidistant its controller would then chose

Its impossible for two or more units to be equidistant.

Two enemy units are in base to base contact with your unit, which is closer?

Measuring Distances P199 of the BRB;

"If a rule refers to the closest unit or model, and two or more are equidistant, then the player who is controlling the unit that is using the rule in question selects which unit is the closest"

The rules literally say otherwise

Unless you mean at the atomic level but noone can measure that

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 p5freak wrote:

U02dah4 wrote:
I'm saying a unit can be equidistant its controller would then chose

Its impossible for two or more units to be equidistant.

Two enemy units are in base to base contact with your unit, which is closer?

As per the rules, you chose one

 AndrewC wrote:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 p5freak wrote:

U02dah4 wrote:
I'm saying a unit can be equidistant its controller would then chose

Its impossible for two or more units to be equidistant.

Two enemy units are in base to base contact with your unit, which is closer?

As per the rules, you chose one

Right, but you are only allowed to do that when two units are both equally close, which p5freak claimed was impossible.

Removed - kindly cease this unproductive nonsense already.

He's a troll ignore him