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I might be splitting hairs here. But stay with me a moment:

A Tau Stormsuge is armed with so many weapons (far to many IMHO), including the indirect fire smart missle system. Near it lurks some genstealers behind line of sight blocking terrain. Further away, out in the open is a juicy group of 9 tyranid warriors. Asuming they both are within the range of Mont'ka what benefits from Mont'ka? Is closest eligible unit measured on a weapon to weapon basis, attack basis or unit to unit basis? Would the smart missile systems beeing able to target the genstealers prevent the Mont'ka bonus on the warriors?

Mont'ka:

"In battle rounds 1-3:

Each time this unit makes a Normal Move or Advances in your Movement phase, until the end of your Shooting phase, it counts as having Remained Stationary.

Each time a model in this unit makes a ranged attack that targets the closest eligible enemy unit within the range shown in the table below, improve the Armour Penetration characteristic of that attack by 1 and re-roll a wound roll of 1."

Smart missile system:

"This weapon can target units that are not visible to the bearer. Each time an attack is made with this weapon, the target does not receive the benefits of Light Cover against that attack."

The stormsurge is making multiple ranged attacks, once with each of its weapons. Mont'ka triggers on making a ranged attack, at which point you determine if that attack is targeting the closest eligible target and said target is within the range for Mont'ka.
The closest eligible unit for the weapons which cannot shoot out of line of sight is the closest target that is in line of sight. So when making a ranged attack with those weapons, the warriors are the closest eligible target and so gain the benefit of Mont'ka.

Cool cool.

With the SMS the genestealers are the closest eligible unit.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:
The stormsurge is making multiple ranged attacks, once with each of its weapons. Mont'ka triggers on making a ranged attack, at which point you determine if that attack is targeting the closest eligible target and said target is within the range for Mont'ka.
The closest eligible unit for the weapons which cannot shoot out of line of sight is the closest target that is in line of sight. So when making a ranged attack with those weapons, the warriors are the closest eligible target and so gain the benefit of Mont'ka.

No.

You determine closest eligible target when you declare all weapons, even if you resolve them one by one.

Which is also the reason you cannot pull models out of LoS, or range, or get around the attacker getting blast, even if multiple weapons from, say, a Knight are resolved sequentially.

Sunny Side Up wrote:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:
The stormsurge is making multiple ranged attacks, once with each of its weapons. Mont'ka triggers on making a ranged attack, at which point you determine if that attack is targeting the closest eligible target and said target is within the range for Mont'ka.
The closest eligible unit for the weapons which cannot shoot out of line of sight is the closest target that is in line of sight. So when making a ranged attack with those weapons, the warriors are the closest eligible target and so gain the benefit of Mont'ka.

No.

You determine closest eligible target when you declare all weapons, even if you resolve them one by one.

Which is also the reason you cannot pull models out of LoS, or range, or get around the attacker getting blast, even if multiple weapons from, say, a Knight are resolved sequentially.

Closest eligible target for a weapon which cannot shoot out of line of sight is the closest target in line of sight.

You make one ranged attack with each weapon you are equipped with. Each ranged attack determines the closest eligible target, as per the rules for mont'ka.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

Sunny Side Up wrote:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:
The stormsurge is making multiple ranged attacks, once with each of its weapons. Mont'ka triggers on making a ranged attack, at which point you determine if that attack is targeting the closest eligible target and said target is within the range for Mont'ka.
The closest eligible unit for the weapons which cannot shoot out of line of sight is the closest target that is in line of sight. So when making a ranged attack with those weapons, the warriors are the closest eligible target and so gain the benefit of Mont'ka.

No.

You determine closest eligible target when you declare all weapons, even if you resolve them one by one.

Which is also the reason you cannot pull models out of LoS, or range, or get around the attacker getting blast, even if multiple weapons from, say, a Knight are resolved sequentially.

Closest eligible target for a weapon which cannot shoot out of line of sight is the closest target in line of sight.

You make one ranged attack with each weapon you are equipped with. Each ranged attack determines the closest eligible target, as per the rules for mont'ka.

Yes. But range and eligibility is checked when you declare weapons, even if you slow dice the shooting. It is not "re-checked" after the first couple of weapons have shot.

You shoot a Knight's Gatling and Meltagun at a unit of Guardsmen. Only one Guardsmen is in LoS and within 12". The rest are strung further back and behind a wall.

Knight player shoots the gatling first and kills 9 Guardsmen, the Guard player pulls the front 9 leaving one Guardsmen maybe 20" away and out of LoS. The meltagun still gets to shoot, because range, LoS and eligibility is not "re-checked". The guardsmen-unit was eligible when the weapons were declared, irrespective of slow-dicing it.

Same for Mon'tka. You check range, eligibility, etc.. for all weapons as you declare them. If your Crisis unit's Airburst kill the first "Mont'ka unit", you don't get to "re-check" if Mont'ka now applies to a different unit for your Plasma, for example.

Each ranged attack, as you put it, is completely irrelevant to the situation. Look at Monkta, the rule activates when the model, not the weapon, targets the closest eligible unit. If you have weapons that can target out of Los units then the rest of the equipped weapons lose the bonus, even if its the closest visible unit.

 AndrewC wrote:
Each ranged attack, as you put it, is completely irrelevant to the situation. Look at Monkta, the rule activates when the model, not the weapon, targets the closest eligible unit. If you have weapons that can target out of Los units then the rest of the equipped weapons lose the bonus, even if its the closest visible unit.

Each time a model makes a ranged attack. You make one ranged attack per weapon, that is RAW. So for each attack you make, you determine if it is targeting the closest eligible target. The only way to determine closest eligible target is by using the rules of the weapon in question.

No. Look at basic rules, a model targets a unit, not the weapon. The weapon rules only come into it to check the validity of the target. All targets are declared at the same time. So that means there can only be one closest target. Then go to Montka.

Each time a model in this unit makes a ranged attack that targets the closest eligible unit..

So Montka applies to the model, not a weapon.

So using a Railside with SMS. There is a unit of grots behind a wall out of Los and further away a battle wagon in plain sight. Montka asks what is the closest eligible unit for the Rside and thats the grots because the model has a weapon that can target them. That's all the rule asks for, what is the closest unit that a model can fire at. Now if the Rside didn't have SMS then yes the further away model is now the closest because the grots are no longer an eligible target for the model.

Mont'ka applies to ranged attacks. It is impossible for a model/unit to be the closest eligible target for a ranged attack if that ranged attack cannot target that unit, as per the weapon rules for that attack.
Whether a ranged attack is targeting the closest eligible target depends on the weapon used. By your interpretation, even if the railside did not shoot its SMS, the grots would still be classed as the closest eligible target for the railgun attack even though the grots are not an eligible target for the ranged attack using the railgun.

Target eligibility is determined for each ranged attack, therefore the closest eligible target is also determined for each ranged attack.

Again, go back to the rule, it specifies a model targeting the closest unit, not a weapon targeting the closest unit.

I hate doing this, but by definition there can only be one closest unit to the model.

 AndrewC wrote:
Again, go back to the rule, it specifies a model targeting the closest unit, not a weapon targeting the closest unit.

I hate doing this, but by definition there can only be one closest unit to the model.

Good thing it isn't just closest then. It is closest eligible. That extra criteria allows for there to be multiple units that fulfil that criteria, dependent on the rules for the weapon being used which determine the eligibility of a unit to be a target of a ranged attack.

And to determine eligibility of a unit to be a target of a ranged attack, we need to use the rules for the weapon which is making the attack (weapon range, can it shoot out of LOS, can it shoot into combat etc.). Therefore, since eligibility of a ranged attack is done on a per attack basis, according to the rules of the weapon making the attack, at the time that attacks are declared, each ranged attack determines what is the closest eligible target.

Again, the rules state the bonus applies to the closest eligible target for the model, not weapon. What is the closest target for that model, in the example its the grots because the Rside can target them, at that point it doesn't matter if it has any other weapons, because the closest eligible target for that model has been established.

 AndrewC wrote:
Again, the rules state the bonus applies to the closest eligible target for the model, not weapon. What is the closest target for that model, in the example its the grots because the Rside can target them, at that point it doesn't matter if it has any other weapons, because the closest eligible target for that model has been established.

Each time a model in this unit makes a ranged attack that targets the closest eligible enemy unit within the range shown in the table below

The grots are not the closest eligible target of the ranged attack made using the railgun.

Unless you can show a rule that says how you determine target eligibility for a ranged attack that does not reference the weapon being used for the attack?

A model makes a ranged attack with a weapon, and the weapon determines what units are eligible to be targets of that attack (weapon range, LOS, shoot in engagement range etc.). If a unit is not an eligible target of a ranged attack (because the ranged attack is being made using a weapon which cannot shoot out of LOS and said unit is out of LOS) it cannot be the closest eligible target of that ranged attack within the mont'ka range restrictions.

I am sorry I asked this. Sorry. (Although I would like the awnser.)

You are completely missing the point here Malus, so lets try from a different direction.

Using the example of the Rside with SMS. We have two enemy units, a unit of grots 5" away behind LoS terrain and a battlewagon 10" away out in the open.

The SMSs' closest eligible unit is the grots yes/no?

The railguns' closest eligible unit is the battlewagon yes/no?

Now look at the Montka rule;

Each time a model in this unit makes a ranged attack that targets the closest eligible enemy unit..

The rule refers to the model targeting the closest eligible unit. What is the closest eligible target for the Rside to attack?

No, it refers to the ranged attack targeting the closest eligible unit. You're reading it wrong.

Models make a ranged attack and select a weapon to make that attack with, the ranged attack then targets an enemy unit.

 Niiai wrote:
I am sorry I asked this. Sorry. (Although I would like the awnser.)

While you're waiting this makes an interesting read,

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/803658.page

Something similar

Andrew


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:
No, it refers to the ranged attack targeting the closest eligible unit. You're reading it wrong.

Models make a ranged attack and select a weapon to make that attack with, ranged attack then targets an enemy unit.

How?

Its a simple question what is the closest eligible target that the Rside can shoot at?

The Railside is making two ranged attacks, one with each weapon. Target eligibility and range is determined per ranged attack, according to the rules of the weapon being used for that ranged attack.

The closest eligible target of the ranged attack with the SMS is the out of sight grots.

The closest eligible target of the ranged attack using the railgun is the battlewagon.

Mont'ka comes into play when two criteria are met:

1) The enemy unit which is being targeted is the closest eligible unit for that attack

AND

2) It is within the range shown in the Mont'ka table

Again, show me a rule for determining an eligible target of a ranged attack which does not refer to the profile of the weapon being used.

It makes no difference for the point of the Montka rule though.

The rule doesn't ask for the weapon to be targeting the closest eligible target, it asks for the model to be targeting the closest eligible target. In the example the Rside can target two different units, both are valid targets for the model. Regardless of the number of weapons it can or may fire, only one of those targets can be closest.

So in this case the closest eligible target that it, the Rside, can target is the Grots. Whether it uses the SMS or not, the Grots are the closest eligible target for the Rside. Even though the railgun cant target them the Rside can, and thats what determines the closest target for the model. Not the weapon, the model.

Nope. Once again you are cutting out a part of the rule.

Each time a model in this unit makes a ranged attack that targets the closest eligible enemy unit within the range shown in the table below

Each time it makes a ranged attack that targets the closest eligible target.

Ranged attack.

Ranged attacks are made with weapons, and the weapons profile and rules determine what are eligible targets of that attack.

Are the grots the closest eligible target for attacks made using the railgun? Yes or no?

Again you're missing the point,

Can the railgun hit the grots, no it cant.

Can the Rside target the grots using the SMS? Yes it can.

What is the closest eligible target that the Rside can shoot at?

As long as the Rside has a weapon that can target a unit, that unit becomes the closest eligible target for that model for the purposes of Montka.

 AndrewC wrote:
Again you're missing the point,

Can the railgun hit the grots, no it cant.

Can the Rside target the grots? Yes it can.

What is the closest eligible target that the Rside can shoot at?

As long as the Rside has a weapon that can target a unit, that unit becomes the closest eligible target for that model for the purposes of Montka.

No, you are failing to parse the rules.

Target eligibility is determined on a per weapon basis, we know this because it uses the range of the weapon and special rules like shoot out of LOS to determine what units can be the target of an attack.

Therefore closest eligible target is determined on a per weapon basis. This is a basic logical extension.

Show me how the grots are the closest eligible target for ranged attacks with the railgun. Because that is what the rule says, "ranged attacks which target the closest eligible unit" Attacks are made using weapons, weapons determine what are eligible targets via special rules and their range.

The out of LOS unit is only the closest eligible target for attacks made using a weapon which can shoot out of LOS. For other weapons, the closest eligible unit is something else (or nothing if no other unit is in range and LOS).

But rule refers to the model, not the weapon.

What is the closest target that the Railside can target/shoot at using the weapons at its disposal?

 AndrewC wrote:
But rule refers to the model, not the weapon.

What is the closest target that the Railside can target/shoot at using the weapons at its disposal?

The rule refers to ranged attacks (which you keep cutting out in your citation of the rule, even in that other thread you linked), which are made using weapons.

The closest eligible target of attacks using the railgun is the battlewagon.

The closest eligible target of attacks using the SMS is the grots.

Both are the closest eligible target of their relevant attacks.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:


Show me how the grots are the closest eligible target for ranged attacks with the railgun. Because that is what the rule says, "ranged attacks which target the closest eligible unit" Attacks are made using weapons, weapons determine what are eligible targets via special rules and their range.

I don't have to show that the grot are the closest eligible target for the railgun, I just have to show that the grots are the closest eligible target for the Rside. Because, in this respect, the model is what is important not the weapon.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

The closest eligible target of attacks using the railgun is the battlewagon.

The closest eligible target of attacks using the SMS is the grots.

Both are the closest eligible target of their relevant attacks.

Answer the question which one is the closest eligible target of the Railside?

 AndrewC wrote:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:


Show me how the grots are the closest eligible target for ranged attacks with the railgun. Because that is what the rule says, "ranged attacks which target the closest eligible unit" Attacks are made using weapons, weapons determine what are eligible targets via special rules and their range.

I don't have to show that the grot are the closest eligible target for the railgun, I just have to show that the grots are the closest eligible target for the Rside. Because, in this respect, the model is what is important not the weapon.

No. The ranged attack is what is important as that is what closest eligible is referring to. And that ranged attack is using the railgun.

Answer the question posed earlier, which target is the closest eligible target for the Railside?

 AndrewC wrote:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

The closest eligible target of attacks using the railgun is the battlewagon.

The closest eligible target of attacks using the SMS is the grots.

Both are the closest eligible target of their relevant attacks.

Answer the question which one is the closest eligible target of the Raiside?

No target is the closest eligible unit of the railside because the railside model doesn't have a range and so no enemy unit is within range.

The weapons that the railside makes attacks with have ranges and rules which determine the closest eligible unit for the attacks made using those weapons.

So, once again before you go on the block list, provide me a rule which says how to determine what is an eligible target for a ranged attack which does not refer to the weapon being used to make that specific attack, such as being in range or LOS.