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The xenos ships thing is in one of the black books, I believe extermination. And while yes, the pale spear and venom spheres are rumored to be xenos tech, everything with alpha legion is secrets and lies, and it’s very obvious that those things are of xeno origin (see drukhari splinter weapons and necron tech in general).

 Some_Call_Me_Tim wrote:
The xenos ships thing is in one of the black books, I believe extermination.

Once again the quote regarding Xenos ships and technology is "suspected" and it's noted said suspicion was impossible to prove.

And while yes, the pale spear and venom spheres are rumored to be xenos tech, everything with alpha legion is secrets and lies, and it’s very obvious that those things are of xeno origin (see drukhari splinter weapons and necron tech in general).

How is it obvious? Venom Spheres model is just a ball and it's not like a grenade loaded with toxic shrapnel is outside of the capability of the Imperium.
As for the Pale Spear it looks like this:

And Necron weapons look like this:


They aren't the same.

I'm not trying to be a gakhead here but you need to understand that passing off deliberately ambiguous background as fact to drive your headcanon is just dumb.

I say splinter weapons in terms of the use of crystal shards saturated with poison.

 Flipsiders wrote:

Having the Alpha Legion be following some secret plan set out by their Primarch (who was really alive the entire time) is, frankly, a lot less interesting than establishing that the legion known for having everything under control has in fact spent thousands of years desperately scrabbling for a coherent game plan.

I would far prefer them to be alive, but to have lost control over the legion, and be battling against the consequences of their own schemes as much as anything else. I imagine they built things to continue and be resilient, assuming they would always be in control. So lose control for a moment and how do you possibly regain control of the system you yourself designed so well to be independent and self perpetuating. Throw in 10,000 years of Chinese whispers, massive problems with pride, the legion starting to splinter pre heresy with elements generating their own objectives independent of central control (as they were designed to). Having their minds start to fracture after 10,000 years of plots and counter ploys, now opposed by their own legion behaving as intended but without the assumed control, add in extreme paranoia about what happens to non-demon Primarchs and a desire to work through others, at least in body, and you could have any number of great story hooks.

I could well imagine roving independent recruitment operations separated by a series of firewalls from warbands who get fresh recruits, each developing their own problems and idiosyncrasies, topped off with legionnaires being kept int he dark about operations as a matter of course and they are the most disparate legion ultimately. Even the night lords wouldn't be hiding from each other.

If alpha legion were just part of the background I’d agree that it’s more interesting that they are a network of independent cells working towards a master plan implemented by dead leaders 10k years ago. They were secretive that the legion didn’t know that their leaders had died and many that were told didn’t believe it thinking it to be a double bluff. Basically they have evolved into a pseudo cult working to a grand resolution that can never be.

But as a playable legion I don’t think that’s a good role to step into as the alpha legion general. I’d want to be playing with a schemes within schemes personality to the army but with some purpose behind it, even if I’m the only one that knows it. Fluff wise it doesn’t have to be the twins setting the winding path of the alpha legion, but someone(s) should be at the head of the hydra

Honestly with the massive evolution of fluff since rogue trader type stuff, I don’t feel like alphas fit terribly well within the chaos book for most warbands. Honestly, the deathwatch book* + maybe a few chaos units would work so much better.

*8th edition deathwatch, not the gak 9th brought.

 Some_Call_Me_Tim wrote:
Honestly with the massive evolution of fluff since rogue trader type stuff, I don’t feel like alphas fit terribly well within the chaos book for most warbands. Honestly, the deathwatch book* + maybe a few chaos units would work so much better.

*8th edition deathwatch, not the gak 9th brought.

Would you mind elaborating a bit?
The Alpha Legion often operates in smaller groups using mortal agents to start uprisings and Cults. The CSM book lets you do that, now more than ever with the addition of the new Cultist units, and for the Legionnaires themselves, you simply need to use Chosen which get a much greater variety of wargear options than generic Marines. If you want a less Chaosy-looking Alpha Legion force then use non-Chaos Marines and things like Cadians and Ogryns to represent the mortals.
For the really small units, like the ones in Shroud of Night, you're better off with Kill Team.

mrFickle wrote:
If alpha legion were just part of the background I’d agree that it’s more interesting that they are a network of independent cells working towards a master plan implemented by dead leaders 10k years ago. They were secretive that the legion didn’t know that their leaders had died and many that were told didn’t believe it thinking it to be a double bluff. Basically they have evolved into a pseudo cult working to a grand resolution that can never be.

But as a playable legion I don’t think that’s a good role to step into as the alpha legion general. I’d want to be playing with a schemes within schemes personality to the army but with some purpose behind it, even if I’m the only one that knows it. Fluff wise it doesn’t have to be the twins setting the winding path of the alpha legion, but someone(s) should be at the head of the hydra

But the whole point is that the Hydra's different heads all have their own purposes and they may be at odds with each other. Your Alpha Legion leader and their army/warband is basically one of those heads and you can set the goals for it. Is it a truly fallen to Chaos or truly anti-Imperium group? Then your objectives are bringing about the downfall of the Imperium. Are you one that secretly is a loyalist (or deludes themselves into thinking that way)? Then your army is like the Istvaanian inquisitor faction. They attack the Imperium to test it, and believe that conflict weeds out the weak and makes the strong demonstrate their strength, ultimately strengthening the Imperium, or so they believe.

I think both Alpharius and Omegon are dead because it's really funny. Because of Alpharius' secrecy, nobody knows that he's dead. We're waiting for him to pop out of a bush, and there's just a corpse back there.

 Some_Call_Me_Tim wrote:
Honestly with the massive evolution of fluff since rogue trader type stuff, I don’t feel like alphas fit terribly well within the chaos book for most warbands. Honestly, the deathwatch book* + maybe a few chaos units would work so much better.

*8th edition deathwatch, not the gak 9th brought.

To be fair most legionnaires (as opposed to the newer recruits) should have a deathwatch style set up.

Cutting and pasting from an old thread...
Back to the core choices I would love the building blocks of my warband to be a cheapish renegades/legionnaires squad (your basic tactical CSM in a squad of 10-20 with a few weapon options - essentially your recent turncoats, new astartes or those still fighting in the old styles) and your more expensive chaotic/Veteran squad in a deathwatch style. So X strong Veteran unit with a variety of load out options, to which you can add terminators, bikers, possessed, raptors, Havocs and cult marines (if the squad worships that particular god, option for god specific boon unlocking the addition of appropriate cult marines.).

 Gert wrote:

The Alpha Legion often operates in smaller groups using mortal agents to start uprisings and Cults. The CSM book lets you do that, now more than ever with the addition of the new Cultist units, and for the Legionnaires themselves, you simply need to use Chosen which get a much greater variety of wargear options than generic Marines. If you want a less Chaosy-looking Alpha Legion force then use non-Chaos Marines and things like Cadians and Ogryns to represent the mortals.

An inquisitor codex would be the ideal proxy - deathwatch (alphas), then militia, guard and scions for the mortals.

For all that I would love an alpha legion codex that presented at least 3 different armies, all with contradictory fluff, all presented at the truth. Fun armies and winding up the one source of the truth lore fanatics!

 Gert wrote:

 Some_Call_Me_Tim wrote:
Honestly with the massive evolution of fluff since rogue trader type stuff, I don’t feel like alphas fit terribly well within the chaos book for most warbands. Honestly, the deathwatch book* + maybe a few chaos units would work so much better.

*8th edition deathwatch, not the gak 9th brought.

Would you mind elaborating a bit?
The Alpha Legion often operates in smaller groups using mortal agents to start uprisings and Cults. The CSM book lets you do that, now more than ever with the addition of the new Cultist units, and for the Legionnaires themselves, you simply need to use Chosen which get a much greater variety of wargear options than generic Marines. If you want a less Chaosy-looking Alpha Legion force then use non-Chaos Marines and things like Cadians and Ogryns to represent the mortals.
For the really small units, like the ones in Shroud of Night, you're better off with Kill Team.

If I’m going to use loyalist models I might as well go loyalist rules and do deathwatch. Alphas do little integrated strike teams with tons of wargear and they sort of pioneered special bolter ammo as a thing.

IMO Alpha Legion would make for a great Army of Renown that cuts out chunks of the codex entirely in exchange for some bespoke stuff.

I also now want to read a story where a disguised Alpha Legion cell executes a plot against another CSM Warband, only to discover that it was also Alpha Legion working in disguise, and the whole thing being a ploy by a third warband of Alpha Legion so they could determine if either/both of the first two were Alpha Legion or not.

Army of renown giving up all the chaosy units for some deatchwatch vets and eliminators would be the dream.