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Made in ca
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Random, barely on-topic question: how do people pronounce "Eversor"?

The teenage me who first encountered the word in 3rd edition chose the path of least resistance and assumed it was "ever sore"

But given the Latin affectations of the setting/writing, it actually seems more legitimate to pronounce it like "Ee Versur" (almost a rhyme for "reverser"). Kind of a tricky one, that dawns on you gradually (like how the Executor in Star Wars would properly be pronounced the same as the executor (of a will) rather than like Execute Ur).
   
Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka







 Grey Templar wrote:
Sure, there is the Eversor assassin, but aside from that the assassins aren't meant for brute force assaults. They're meant to sneak in, have a one v one, and then leave. So a one v one is mostly what they have trained for. Not an honorable duel of course, they're never meant to have a "fair fight" as it were. They're not going to attack a dude who is currently surrounded by bodyguards unless they are an Eversor(because that is their purpose) or a Vindicare(cheating with a sniper rifle).

Or a Callidus, who eliminated one of the bodyguards a month ago and has been posing as him since, using a distraction to allow them to take out the person the "bodyguard" is meant to be protecting.

Or the Culexus, should the target be a psyker, whose enhanced Pariah field means the bodyguards can't even perceive him/her before the eye of their helm allows them to eliminate the target.

Or the Venenum, who knew the route the target was taking, and has rigged up some form of poison gas dispenser, so the target and bodyguards go down - or, if they were feeling really sneaky, has the gas be one part of a binary toxin, with the other part in something the target is going to eat/drink hours later.

Or the Vanus, who has set things up in such a Rube Goldberg fashion that the target wasn't expecting the Munitorum Armoured Container that has slipped out of the grips of a transport Valkyrie above them, and is due to impact in 3, 2, 1...

2021 Plog - Here we go again... - my fifth attempt at a Dakka PLOG

My [url=https://pileofpotential.com/dysartes]Pile of Potential[/url - updates ongoing...

Gamgee on Tau Players wrote:we all kill cats and sell our own families to the devil and eat live puppies.


 Kanluwen wrote:
This is, emphatically, why I will continue suggesting nuking Guard and starting over again. It's a legacy army that needs to be rebooted with a new focal point.

Confirmation of why no-one should listen to Kanluwen when it comes to the IG - he doesn't want the IG, he want's Kan's New Model Army... 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





o one said anything about fighting fair this is 40k. in a cage match i'd still expect an assassin to have a load of trick up their sleeve rather than resort to a kick boxing fight. I'd always thought that if you ended up in a 1v1 with most assassins they probably spend most of the fight behind you as they are super quick and nimble


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Altruizine wrote:
Random, barely on-topic question: how do people pronounce "Eversor"?

The teenage me who first encountered the word in 3rd edition chose the path of least resistance and assumed it was "ever sore"

But given the Latin affectations of the setting/writing, it actually seems more legitimate to pronounce it like "Ee Versur" (almost a rhyme for "reverser"). Kind of a tricky one, that dawns on you gradually (like how the Executor in Star Wars would properly be pronounced the same as the executor (of a will) rather than like Execute Ur).


well you just helped me realise I'm reading it wrong, I have been saying ev-ess-or in my head haha

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/08/16 07:58:30


 
   
Made in us
Stern Iron Priest with Thrall Bodyguard





 Dysartes wrote:
Or the Vanus, who has set things up in such a Rube Goldberg fashion that the target wasn't expecting the Munitorum Armoured Container that has slipped out of the grips of a transport Valkyrie above them, and is due to impact in 3, 2, 1...

If they are going to do any rube-goldberging it will be the last statue of the Emperor Deified that the target was going to ceremonially destroy to symbolise total victory, and they would be killed by the statue’s sword piercing their heart, or decapitating them. Depends on the angles and the platform, really. But yeah the point is to make the death a public spectacle to show the Emperor’s power.
That and the article in the next episode of rebellion weekly about how the former governor was actually hoarding half the tithes and they never really had to send that much to the Imperium in the first place.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/08/16 11:44:52


"Three months? I'm going to go crazy …and I'm taking you with me!"
— Vala Mal Doran
 
   
Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka







The Vanus is definitely the Temple I'd like to hear more about, in terms of how it operates - I can picture the Venenum approach fairly clearly, but an Assassin who operates via information is a bit harder to picture.

2021 Plog - Here we go again... - my fifth attempt at a Dakka PLOG

My [url=https://pileofpotential.com/dysartes]Pile of Potential[/url - updates ongoing...

Gamgee on Tau Players wrote:we all kill cats and sell our own families to the devil and eat live puppies.


 Kanluwen wrote:
This is, emphatically, why I will continue suggesting nuking Guard and starting over again. It's a legacy army that needs to be rebooted with a new focal point.

Confirmation of why no-one should listen to Kanluwen when it comes to the IG - he doesn't want the IG, he want's Kan's New Model Army... 
   
Made in us
Morally-Flexible Malleus Hearing Whispers




I thought one of the big rules of Background is that we don't bring table top into fluff discussions. As such, all in game rules and stats are pointless. They don't indicate what a unit is truly able to do, or not do. A Calladius CAN kill Dante, or Jain Zar and Asurmen, Drazhar, and even Trajaan Valoris. Is anyone here really going to argue that Trajaan and Drazhar are not as good at fighting as one of them?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/08/16 14:50:14


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





 Dysartes wrote:
The Vanus is definitely the Temple I'd like to hear more about, in terms of how it operates - I can picture the Venenum approach fairly clearly, but an Assassin who operates via information is a bit harder to picture.

Check out Kingslayer (Kingmaker?) if you haven't already. A vanus features prominently. I get the impression that they're a lot less bothered about the equipment they use to do the actual killing than the other temples. A common stubgun is preferable to a custom-made needle pistol if the former can be more reliably slipped through security to give the vanus an opening. They also seem to be kind of mechanicus-y? I was a bit unclear about that.


ATTENTION
. Psychic tests are unfluffy. Your longing for AV is understandable but misguided. Your chapter doesn't need a separate codex. Doctrines should go away. Being a "troop" means nothing. This has been a cranky service announcement. You may now resume your regularly scheduled arguing.
 
   
Made in us
Stern Iron Priest with Thrall Bodyguard





 Dysartes wrote:
The Vanus is definitely the Temple I'd like to hear more about, in terms of how it operates - I can picture the Venenum approach fairly clearly, but an Assassin who operates via information is a bit harder to picture.

I think of how they killed those passenger jets in Die Hard 2 - so many safety and control systems rely on accurate information about the real world…
Imagine if the governor’s personal elevator suddenly thought that 50rpm on the main ascent cable drum was the safe and ideal speed instead of, say, five? Or that operating the brakes at full clamp instantly was appropriate?
But maybe they don’t have to kill them; discrediting them enough that their minions do it for you is also fine; oops that deepfaked video of the Governor ranting about how they were going to have to kill all their advisors and start over found it’s way onto the personal terminals of all the advisors? However did that happen?

Venus are basically a one-person Mission Impossible team.

"Three months? I'm going to go crazy …and I'm taking you with me!"
— Vala Mal Doran
 
   
Made in gb
Leader of the Sept







In some cases a quiet one on one hit my be the way to go. In others, the term “extreme prejudice” may be part of the mission briefing, and there is no such thing as a) overkill and b) excessive collateral damage. Enabling an abject lesson in “look what happened not just to the bad guy but everyone in the same building, slowly and with malice aforethought” can be useful in quelling future malfeasance.

Please excuse any spelling errors. I use a tablet frequently and software keyboards are a pain!

Terranwing - w3;d1;l1
51st Dunedinw2;d0;l0
Cadre Coronal Afterglow w1;d0;l0 
   
Made in us
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See, all this talk of the “mysterious” two Temples got me thinking; do the Venenum know the secrets of the Life-Eater? Or some of them, anyway…

Because the impact of seeing your demagogue literally dissolve into a puddle of goo in front of the crowds cannot be underestimated…

"Three months? I'm going to go crazy …and I'm taking you with me!"
— Vala Mal Doran
 
   
Made in us
Morally-Flexible Malleus Hearing Whispers




Assassins always struck me as odd though. What good is the use of an Imperial assassin to root out a specific target when there are space Wizards in existence? For instance, all that is needed is a sufficiently powerful psyker to walk into a room (or within sight line) of a target, and they can literally crush the person with their mind. (Lydia Zane for instance, would be a good example of this). If Assassins are so rediculously rare and special that only a certain number can exist at one time, and they all have to be strictly guarded and ordered about, why not just have an inquisitor go to the planet where traitor governor is, and poison/mind kill him? Surely a hotshot headshot from a mile out, from a single Scion level human is JUST as effective as a Vindicaire's Exitus Rifle from the same distance?

This raises the question, who would win, Larkin or a Vindicaire in a shooting contest? Neither, because it's all made up.
   
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Because Psykers are notoriously difficult to control. Even trained Imperial Psykers are intense risks to those they serve alongside.
As for the other options, Inquisitors have more important concerns than just assassinations and Scions are soldiers, not assassins.
   
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FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:Assassins always struck me as odd though. What good is the use of an Imperial assassin to root out a specific target when there are space Wizards in existence? For instance, all that is needed is a sufficiently powerful psyker to walk into a room (or within sight line) of a target, and they can literally crush the person with their mind. (Lydia Zane for instance, would be a good example of this). If Assassins are so rediculously rare and special that only a certain number can exist at one time, and they all have to be strictly guarded and ordered about, why not just have an inquisitor go to the planet where traitor governor is, and poison/mind kill him? Surely a hotshot headshot from a mile out, from a single Scion level human is JUST as effective as a Vindicaire's Exitus Rifle from the same distance?

This raises the question, who would win, Larkin or a Vindicaire in a shooting contest? Neither, because it's all made up.


Gert wrote:Because Psykers are notoriously difficult to control. Even trained Imperial Psykers are intense risks to those they serve alongside.
As for the other options, Inquisitors have more important concerns than just assassinations and Scions are soldiers, not assassins.

What Gert said. Plus, sanctioned imperial psykers usually aren't in great shape once they've been "trained". Sure, a sanctioned psyker might be able to make the target's head explode if you get them in a room together, but how are you getting the psyker into the room? A culexus or vindicaire will parkour their way through a continent's worth of hive sprawl so they can shimmy their way up a spire and go for the kill. A sanctioned psyker more or less has to be dropped off in the room by others. I'm sure inquisitors do make extensive use of non-Officio Assassinorum assassins. When a scion with a sniper rifle is sufficient to get the job done, I'm sure an inquisitor would march rather use said scion; it's probably a lot faster and less paperwork to requisition. But the officio assassinorum is for those over-the-top extreme missions where a guy with a grav chute and a hotshot won't be enough.

Also, sometimes you don't want to swing your inquisitorial papers around. An inquisitor can theoretically get in the room with pretty much anyone provided he flashes his rosarius. But maybe doing that causes the target to go to ground or self-destruct before they can be interrogated or give the signal to start the cult uprising or whatever. If you, as an inquisitor, aren't particularly stealthy and don't have henchmen that are particularly stealthy, then you might be better off requisitioning an assassin. Also, sometimes you just don't want the inquisition's name on a mission. Ex: Part of the premise of Kingmaker (Kingslayer?) is that the planet sees itself as an ally of the imperium rather than a vassal, and it's starting to toy with the notion of secession. Having an inquisitor show up, stick a psyker next to your king, and then brainsplode said king would be more likely to encourage revolt/secession than to quail it.


ATTENTION
. Psychic tests are unfluffy. Your longing for AV is understandable but misguided. Your chapter doesn't need a separate codex. Doctrines should go away. Being a "troop" means nothing. This has been a cranky service announcement. You may now resume your regularly scheduled arguing.
 
   
Made in us
Morally-Flexible Malleus Hearing Whispers




 Wyldhunt wrote:
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:Assassins always struck me as odd though. What good is the use of an Imperial assassin to root out a specific target when there are space Wizards in existence? For instance, all that is needed is a sufficiently powerful psyker to walk into a room (or within sight line) of a target, and they can literally crush the person with their mind. (Lydia Zane for instance, would be a good example of this). If Assassins are so rediculously rare and special that only a certain number can exist at one time, and they all have to be strictly guarded and ordered about, why not just have an inquisitor go to the planet where traitor governor is, and poison/mind kill him? Surely a hotshot headshot from a mile out, from a single Scion level human is JUST as effective as a Vindicaire's Exitus Rifle from the same distance?

This raises the question, who would win, Larkin or a Vindicaire in a shooting contest? Neither, because it's all made up.


Gert wrote:Because Psykers are notoriously difficult to control. Even trained Imperial Psykers are intense risks to those they serve alongside.
As for the other options, Inquisitors have more important concerns than just assassinations and Scions are soldiers, not assassins.

What Gert said. Plus, sanctioned imperial psykers usually aren't in great shape once they've been "trained". Sure, a sanctioned psyker might be able to make the target's head explode if you get them in a room together, but how are you getting the psyker into the room? A culexus or vindicaire will parkour their way through a continent's worth of hive sprawl so they can shimmy their way up a spire and go for the kill. A sanctioned psyker more or less has to be dropped off in the room by others. I'm sure inquisitors do make extensive use of non-Officio Assassinorum assassins. When a scion with a sniper rifle is sufficient to get the job done, I'm sure an inquisitor would march rather use said scion; it's probably a lot faster and less paperwork to requisition. But the officio assassinorum is for those over-the-top extreme missions where a guy with a grav chute and a hotshot won't be enough.

Also, sometimes you don't want to swing your inquisitorial papers around. An inquisitor can theoretically get in the room with pretty much anyone provided he flashes his rosarius. But maybe doing that causes the target to go to ground or self-destruct before they can be interrogated or give the signal to start the cult uprising or whatever. If you, as an inquisitor, aren't particularly stealthy and don't have henchmen that are particularly stealthy, then you might be better off requisitioning an assassin. Also, sometimes you just don't want the inquisition's name on a mission. Ex: Part of the premise of Kingmaker (Kingslayer?) is that the planet sees itself as an ally of the imperium rather than a vassal, and it's starting to toy with the notion of secession. Having an inquisitor show up, stick a psyker next to your king, and then brainsplode said king would be more likely to encourage revolt/secession than to quail it.


Remarkable Headcannon, but alas, untrue. A good enough psyker doesn't even need line of sight, and I dare someone to stop a member of the planetary Navigator houses entry to see the potentate of whatever world they are on. Or a member of the Ordos sufficiently skilled in Psycraft. Leave all the Jon Wick nonsense behind. In a world where you can literally summon demons, and kill people with strong thoughts, Leon is irrelevant. Besides, forget all the subterfuge. If there was a world that had declared active rebellion against the Imperium, (Only really significant threat enough to warrant the Officio Assasinorum getting involved, then there is hardly anything stopping an Inquisitor from literally teleporting into the bedroom of the governor, and shooting him with a pistol. Or in a worst case scenario, a Single squad of regular gen 1 Astartes is sufficient to drop pod in, and kill everyone. Again, if Assassins are Such a powerful asset, then a planetary strike from an orbiting naval cruiser on the palace would be more efficient than an assassin. What is the point of subtlety in a universe like 40k? It's a completely pointless concept.

Getting back to the main thread point, if the book is about assassins, by a writer that favors them, they win. If the book is written by the guy who writes mostly chaos stuff, the Chaos Champion wins. There is no better than. It's all whos writing the fluff at the time.

Keep in mind, the Assassins fluff is the most anime fan crap in all the 40k fandom. It's the Bronies of 40k.
   
Made in us
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FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:

Remarkable Headcannon, but alas, untrue. A good enough psyker doesn't even need line of sight,

I mean, Ahriman doesn't seem to solve his problems by brainsploding people from the other side of the planet, so it seems like there's a practical upper limit. And if Ahriman and Eldrad aren't using long-distance mind crushes as a regular tactic, the number of humans capable of pulling it off are probably few enough for them to be incapable of fulfilling the assassinorum's work load. I do like the idea of a psychic assassin though. Seems like that ought to be a thing. Maybe the idea freaks the imperials out too much.

and I dare someone to stop a member of the planetary Navigator houses entry to see the potentate of whatever world they are on. Or a member of the Ordos sufficiently skilled in Psycraft.

Not sure a warboss, chaos lord, farseer, or GSC magus would be feel the need to accept a navigator's meeting invite. The planetary governor might not either if he's a daemon wearing human skin or a GSCultist. Or a rogue assassin that doesn't realize he's been possessed by a daemon for months now. Plenty of reasons for knocking politely on the front door to not be a viable means of killing someone.

Besides, forget all the subterfuge. If there was a world that had declared active rebellion against the Imperium, (Only really significant threat enough to warrant the Officio Assasinorum getting involved, then there is hardly anything stopping an Inquisitor from literally teleporting into the bedroom of the governor, and shooting him with a pistol. Or in a worst case scenario, a Single squad of regular gen 1 Astartes is sufficient to drop pod in, and kill everyone. Again, if Assassins are Such a powerful asset, then a planetary strike from an orbiting naval cruiser on the palace would be more efficient than an assassin. What is the point of subtlety in a universe like 40k? It's a completely pointless concept.

Well, in the case of Assassinorum: Kingmaker...
Spoiler:
The planet in question was a knight world. It wasn't in active revolt against the imperium, but it was getting dangerously close to seceding. Civil war between factions on the planet or between the planet and the imperium would result in the loss of a bunch of imperial knights, which were considered too valuable to squander like that. The goal of the execution force in the book is to get rid of the current problematic king and replace him with someone sympathetic to the imperium in a way that won't spark a civil war.

So kicking down the front door would be counter-productive in that scenario.



ATTENTION
. Psychic tests are unfluffy. Your longing for AV is understandable but misguided. Your chapter doesn't need a separate codex. Doctrines should go away. Being a "troop" means nothing. This has been a cranky service announcement. You may now resume your regularly scheduled arguing.
 
   
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Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios

 Mr_Rose wrote:
See, all this talk of the “mysterious” two Temples got me thinking; do the Venenum know the secrets of the Life-Eater? Or some of them, anyway…

Because the impact of seeing your demagogue literally dissolve into a puddle of goo in front of the crowds cannot be underestimated…


Life Eater virus is quite effective, but the issue is that after that demagogue dissolves into a goo pile the crowd that watched it will be turning into goo themselves very soon. It kinda spreads unless it is contained with fire very quickly.

While I'm sure any of the assassin temples could be permitted to access Life Eater virus, it would definitely not be the preferred method due to it's very very messy nature.

Its the sort of thing where "ooops, I dropped it, there goes the whole planet!" is very much in the cards. Only difference between a small vial and a bunch of virus bombs is how long it will take to destroy all life on the planet. Months and weeks vs hours.

Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines

Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.

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Navigators are barely tolerated (even if they are fundamental to the imperium) mutants at the best of times. If they start wandering around and deliberately assassinating important people I think it would go badly for them.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/08/17 12:30:51


Please excuse any spelling errors. I use a tablet frequently and software keyboards are a pain!

Terranwing - w3;d1;l1
51st Dunedinw2;d0;l0
Cadre Coronal Afterglow w1;d0;l0 
   
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So an inquisitor then. Point is, super John Wick's in Kink outfits with guns are completely pointless in a universe where magic exists. And you're right, Arhiman can't do that. But he's not the upper limit. Mephiston, the Emperor, and Malcador are the upper limit. But they aren't getting tasked with killing 1 governor in a random planet any time soon. Lydia Zane kills a chaos cultist psyker in her delirious haze, without seeing him. She finds him with her mind and kills him. So it doesn't take a master psyker to do it, it's just easier to do it face to face.

Again, if space magic exists, rules on what is normal do not exist. Therefor, you can't say what is normal or even possible. Because I have this magic mcguffin over here that allows me to break any rule. See my point?

Point is, what good is all the subtlety of a master assassin when you can literally just use magic?

Are we really to believe that the Imperium of man is incapable of removing a single human obstacle from it's path without spending the cost that is involved in deploying an assassin? Surely paying the cost to send an inquisitor would be easier. Lets take the Vervunhive Campaign in Gaunt's series as an example. An entire two hives on a single planet go basically rogue, and end up making the world useless to the entire crusade. Would an assassin have stopped this? No, Would the naval fleet lancing the Chaos infested first hive have stopped it? Most likely yes.
   
Made in gb
Never Forget Isstvan!






FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
A good enough psyker doesn't even need line of sight, and I dare someone to stop a member of the planetary Navigator houses entry to see the potentate of whatever world they are on. Or a member of the Ordos sufficiently skilled in Psycraft.

So you're just going to ignore the part about Psykers being incredibly unreliable and dangerous? There's a reason the Imperium doesn't let Psykers just wander about and when Psykers are used they are 9/10 times accompanied by teams of handlers or executioners ready to kill them at the slightest hint of a loss of control. There are no half measures when it comes to Psykers for the Imperium.
As for Navigators, they don't leave their ships. They are also one of the most valuable resources the Imperium has more than Space Marines, the Custodes, or even the Primarchs. Without Navigators the Imperium doesn't function. Wasting them on assassination attempts is beyond idiotic.
Inquisitors can do murders and sometimes get away with it but going about flashing a Rosette tends to drum up attention when often that attention isn't needed. Heck, most times an Inquisitor might not even take to the field instead using operatives like assassins.

Leave all the Jon Wick nonsense behind. In a world where you can literally summon demons, and kill people with strong thoughts, Leon is irrelevant.

Yes, Daemon summoning. A thing the Imperium very much endorses and encourages. /s

Besides, forget all the subterfuge. If there was a world that had declared active rebellion against the Imperium, (Only really significant threat enough to warrant the Officio Assasinorum getting involved, then there is hardly anything stopping an Inquisitor from literally teleporting into the bedroom of the governor, and shooting him with a pistol. Or in a worst case scenario, a Single squad of regular gen 1 Astartes is sufficient to drop pod in, and kill everyone. Again, if Assassins are Such a powerful asset, then a planetary strike from an orbiting naval cruiser on the palace would be more efficient than an assassin. What is the point of subtlety in a universe like 40k? It's a completely pointless concept.

Astartes aren't going to show up for one random world having a bit of rebellion. Heck, most Inquisitors aren't going to show up for a planet having a bit of a rebellion. They also drum up a lot of noise that can result in the instigators of said rebellion scattering and hiding, therefore ensuring the continuation of said rebellion. Assassins are used specifically to avoid those things and subtlety is very important when it comes to politics especially. A show of force only gets you so far before people start getting bolder but a hidden agent who could be anywhere at any time ready to kill those who fall out of line? That keeps the people in check.
Assassins also aren't just used for rebelling Imperial worlds so your examples aren't going to work for every single situation. The lance strike one especially is completely idiotic.
   
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Why have armies then, when you can just use magic? Why fleets? Magic!

On the other topic: What makes you think deploying a fleet to boil the governor’s palace from orbit is somehow cheaper than an Assassin? Especially when the fleet has fleet-scale jobs to be done elsewhere.
The whole point of the Officio Assassinorum is to be the surgical scalpel in the Imperium’s armoury vs. the sundry swords, hammers, axes, pliers etc. which make up the rest of it.

"Three months? I'm going to go crazy …and I'm taking you with me!"
— Vala Mal Doran
 
   
Made in us
Morally-Flexible Malleus Hearing Whispers




 Gert wrote:
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
A good enough psyker doesn't even need line of sight, and I dare someone to stop a member of the planetary Navigator houses entry to see the potentate of whatever world they are on. Or a member of the Ordos sufficiently skilled in Psycraft.

So you're just going to ignore the part about Psykers being incredibly unreliable and dangerous? There's a reason the Imperium doesn't let Psykers just wander about and when Psykers are used they are 9/10 times accompanied by teams of handlers or executioners ready to kill them at the slightest hint of a loss of control. There are no half measures when it comes to Psykers for the Imperium.
As for Navigators, they don't leave their ships. They are also one of the most valuable resources the Imperium has more than Space Marines, the Custodes, or even the Primarchs. Without Navigators the Imperium doesn't function. Wasting them on assassination attempts is beyond idiotic.
Inquisitors can do murders and sometimes get away with it but going about flashing a Rosette tends to drum up attention when often that attention isn't needed. Heck, most times an Inquisitor might not even take to the field instead using operatives like assassins.

Leave all the Jon Wick nonsense behind. In a world where you can literally summon demons, and kill people with strong thoughts, Leon is irrelevant.

Yes, Daemon summoning. A thing the Imperium very much endorses and encourages. /s

Besides, forget all the subterfuge. If there was a world that had declared active rebellion against the Imperium, (Only really significant threat enough to warrant the Officio Assasinorum getting involved, then there is hardly anything stopping an Inquisitor from literally teleporting into the bedroom of the governor, and shooting him with a pistol. Or in a worst case scenario, a Single squad of regular gen 1 Astartes is sufficient to drop pod in, and kill everyone. Again, if Assassins are Such a powerful asset, then a planetary strike from an orbiting naval cruiser on the palace would be more efficient than an assassin. What is the point of subtlety in a universe like 40k? It's a completely pointless concept.

Astartes aren't going to show up for one random world having a bit of rebellion. Heck, most Inquisitors aren't going to show up for a planet having a bit of a rebellion. They also drum up a lot of noise that can result in the instigators of said rebellion scattering and hiding, therefore ensuring the continuation of said rebellion. Assassins are used specifically to avoid those things and subtlety is very important when it comes to politics especially. A show of force only gets you so far before people start getting bolder but a hidden agent who could be anywhere at any time ready to kill those who fall out of line? That keeps the people in check.
Assassins also aren't just used for rebelling Imperial worlds so your examples aren't going to work for every single situation. The lance strike one especially is completely idiotic.


Incredibly dangerous is negated by their constant use, necessity in almost everything, and frequent integration into field use. Most if not all guard units have some form of psyker, whether it's a navigator, or just the person who sends messages back and forth, or defensive screening, they are baked into their plans. Also, the Astartes use them efficiently without major issue. The only ones who don't are the BT, and they are an extreme outlier in all things. I'm really not understanding how this is so difficult for you.

Let me ask it another way: How many stakes do you need to kill a level 50 vampire? Zero, because Vampires don't exist. So arguing about the laws and rules regarding their non-existence is pointless.

What good are Assassins in a conceptual universe with no defining rules, and the ones that do exist are made up to suit the author's narrative?

If we had a book that said Assassins are used as exceptionally good Chambermaids, does that mean all Assassins receive training like that? No, it was just something the author put in to suit the narrative.

Assassins are the Tom Bombadil or 40k. They are both capable of defeating the greatest evil in existence, and incapable of doing so, simultaneously. Yes, an assassin could take down an Astartes in a book centered around them. Or they get punched into paste if the writer is pro-SM.
   
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FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Incredibly dangerous is negated by their constant use, necessity in almost everything, and frequent integration into field use. Most if not all guard units have some form of psyker, whether it's a navigator, or just the person who sends messages back and forth, or defensive screening, they are baked into their plans. Also, the Astartes use them efficiently without major issue. The only ones who don't are the BT, and they are an extreme outlier in all things. I'm really not understanding how this is so difficult for you.

1 - "Constant" in terms of the immense military power of the Imperium is still incredibly rare. Most humans will never meet a Psyker and even most Guardsmen will never meet a Psyker.
2 - Most Guard units do not use Psykers and when they do they are kept under heavy guard with at least one Commisar nearby ready to blow their brains out at the slightest hint of possession which is very common for human Psykers. The overall theatre command might have an Astropath to send messages but most do not because of the general hatred of witches in the Imperium.
3 - Librarians are miles above and beyond the training of a regular human Psyker. They have extra equipment, more specialised facilities to train in and their training is much more intense. Even then, they still suffer the same scrutiny and revulsion from their fellow Astartes. One of the primary duties of Chaplains is to watch for corruption in their charges and in Librarians especially.

What good are Assassins in a conceptual universe with no defining rules, and the ones that do exist are made up to suit the author's narrative?

If we had a book that said Assassins are used as exceptionally good Chambermaids, does that mean all Assassins receive training like that? No, it was just something the author put in to suit the narrative.

Assassins are the Tom Bombadil or 40k. They are both capable of defeating the greatest evil in existence, and incapable of doing so, simultaneously. Yes, an assassin could take down an Astartes in a book centered around them. Or they get punched into paste if the writer is pro-SM.

If you can't get over that you need to stop joining discussions in the forum because you aren't actually adding anything to them apart from being a prat.
   
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FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
So an inquisitor then. Point is, super John Wick's in Kink outfits with guns are completely pointless in a universe where magic exists. And you're right, Arhiman can't do that. But he's not the upper limit. Mephiston,

I'm sorry but in what world is Mephiston the upper limit?
   
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@Fezzik - I’m not sure what you are trying to argue here. Assassins exist in 40k because they exist in 40k. They have a defined role that is quite well set out ever since Rogue Trader. Your point on the he winner of any given combat in a book will depend on who is writing is entirely correct.

However then pointing to psykers as the solution to everything rather goes off piste. You can’t put specific rules on fictional magic, but equally the fluff is pretty clear that psykers aren’t used to solve every problem. So we are back to what gets used is whatever the writer wants to write about.

Regarding Vervunhive, Dan Abnett wanted to write about a civil war and conflict using Guard regiments. Another author could have used the same kind of setup, but much earlier where the application of an assassin could have prevented the civil war.

Please excuse any spelling errors. I use a tablet frequently and software keyboards are a pain!

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FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Again, if space magic exists, rules on what is normal do not exist. Therefor, you can't say what is normal or even possible. Because I have this magic mcguffin over here that allows me to break any rule. See my point?

Point is, what good is all the subtlety of a master assassin when you can literally just use magic?

This is literally as stupid take as claiming existence of Gandalf and Saruman in LotR means battles of Helms deep, Pelennor fields and black gate are pointless because Gandalf can just nuke Witch King with fireball. Or teleport into Mount Doom making Frodo pointless. Or Aragorn has no place in story because Gandalf is older, wiser, and can just cast mind control to make sure no one will ever do bad things again. Magic!

Would the naval fleet lancing the Chaos infested first hive have stopped it? Most likely yes.

Imagine USA nuking Detroit after first riot inside. No, it would most likely cause every single other hive to rebel at once. You don't realize how comical what you said sounds? Especially seeing Hives often have irreplaceable stuff from Dark Age sitting inside so this 'solution' is even dumber than it would be in RL?
   
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EviscerationPlague wrote:
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
So an inquisitor then. Point is, super John Wick's in Kink outfits with guns are completely pointless in a universe where magic exists. And you're right, Arhiman can't do that. But he's not the upper limit. Mephiston,

I'm sorry but in what world is Mephiston the upper limit?

In modern 40k, especially if your examples are Imperial-aligned?

Based on every description I've seen, the Lord of Death would definitely be in the top tier of psykers. Maybe not the (Blood) Angel atop the Christmas Tree, but certainly up there.

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 Kanluwen wrote:
This is, emphatically, why I will continue suggesting nuking Guard and starting over again. It's a legacy army that needs to be rebooted with a new focal point.

Confirmation of why no-one should listen to Kanluwen when it comes to the IG - he doesn't want the IG, he want's Kan's New Model Army... 
   
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EviscerationPlague wrote:
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
So an inquisitor then. Point is, super John Wick's in Kink outfits with guns are completely pointless in a universe where magic exists. And you're right, Arhiman can't do that. But he's not the upper limit. Mephiston,

I'm sorry but in what world is Mephiston the upper limit?


I mean, he's the only living psker to contest the hive mind correct? Not only that, but he literally stops the DP Karbander from escaping his prison, he withstands psychic tests that literally cause all the other librarians' heads to explode, most chapters regard him as the most powerful librarian in the Astartes, he's spoken with the dead spirit of a Primarch, I mean, his list of psychic feats is almost as great as Dante's list of martial feats.

Yeah, he's top 10 among humans.

But he's still not as strong as some others....

Eisenhorne, Ravenor, Voke, Heldane, Malcador, any GK (not sure where they rank), etc.

Not sure where or how to rank Psykers but I know Mephy is up there near the top of humanity.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Irbis wrote:
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Again, if space magic exists, rules on what is normal do not exist. Therefor, you can't say what is normal or even possible. Because I have this magic mcguffin over here that allows me to break any rule. See my point?

Point is, what good is all the subtlety of a master assassin when you can literally just use magic?

This is literally as stupid take as claiming existence of Gandalf and Saruman in LotR means battles of Helms deep, Pelennor fields and black gate are pointless because Gandalf can just nuke Witch King with fireball. Or teleport into Mount Doom making Frodo pointless. Or Aragorn has no place in story because Gandalf is older, wiser, and can just cast mind control to make sure no one will ever do bad things again. Magic!

Would the naval fleet lancing the Chaos infested first hive have stopped it? Most likely yes.

Imagine USA nuking Detroit after first riot inside. No, it would most likely cause every single other hive to rebel at once. You don't realize how comical what you said sounds? Especially seeing Hives often have irreplaceable stuff from Dark Age sitting inside so this 'solution' is even dumber than it would be in RL?


If Detroit was the cause of the entire planet turning into daemons or 6 armed mutants, or slaneshi slaves, then yes, nuking Detroit makes sense. Think about the scale here. Detroit is a small cost for saving the entire planet, especially when the specific planet in question is the only place that a super specific and vital weapon is made. I don't think most Imperial leaders would bat an eye at the death of millions to save billions.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2022/08/17 21:26:57


 
   
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Dakka Veteran




Dont Nuke Detroit!! ... Cant we just settled on nuking a more hideous city like, I dont know... Vegas or Orlando?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
EviscerationPlague wrote:
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
So an inquisitor then. Point is, super John Wick's in Kink outfits with guns are completely pointless in a universe where magic exists. And you're right, Arhiman can't do that. But he's not the upper limit. Mephiston,

I'm sorry but in what world is Mephiston the upper limit?


I mean, he's the only living psker to contest the hive mind correct? Not only that, but he literally stops the DP Karbander from escaping his prison, he withstands psychic tests that literally cause all the other librarians' heads to explode, most chapters regard him as the most powerful librarian in the Astartes, he's spoken with the dead spirit of a Primarch, I mean, his list of psychic feats is almost as great as Dante's list of martial feats.

Yeah, he's top 10 among humans.

But he's still not as strong as some others....

Eisenhorne, Ravenor, Voke, Heldane, Malcador, any GK (not sure where they rank), etc.

Not sure where or how to rank Psykers but I know Mephy is up there near the top of humanity.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Irbis wrote:
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Again, if space magic exists, rules on what is normal do not exist. Therefor, you can't say what is normal or even possible. Because I have this magic mcguffin over here that allows me to break any rule. See my point?

Point is, what good is all the subtlety of a master assassin when you can literally just use magic?

This is literally as stupid take as claiming existence of Gandalf and Saruman in LotR means battles of Helms deep, Pelennor fields and black gate are pointless because Gandalf can just nuke Witch King with fireball. Or teleport into Mount Doom making Frodo pointless. Or Aragorn has no place in story because Gandalf is older, wiser, and can just cast mind control to make sure no one will ever do bad things again. Magic!

Would the naval fleet lancing the Chaos infested first hive have stopped it? Most likely yes.

Imagine USA nuking Detroit after first riot inside. No, it would most likely cause every single other hive to rebel at once. You don't realize how comical what you said sounds? Especially seeing Hives often have irreplaceable stuff from Dark Age sitting inside so this 'solution' is even dumber than it would be in RL?


If Detroit was the cause of the entire planet turning into daemons or 6 armed mutants, or slaneshi slaves, then yes, nuking Detroit makes sense. Think about the scale here. Detroit is a small cost for saving the entire planet, especially when the specific planet in question is the only place that a super specific and vital weapon is made. I don't think most Imperial leaders would bat an eye at the death of millions to save billions.


I hope that people with your POV never, ever, have a saying on the use of nukes or other WMD... Or else humanity might finally trespass the singularity it has been attempting in the las decades to achive... BUT INTO OBLIVION!!!

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2022/08/17 22:40:58


 
   
Made in us
Morally-Flexible Malleus Hearing Whispers




Vatsetis wrote:
Dont Nuke Detroit!! ... Cant we just settled on nuking a more hideous city like, I dont know... Vegas or Orlando?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
EviscerationPlague wrote:
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
So an inquisitor then. Point is, super John Wick's in Kink outfits with guns are completely pointless in a universe where magic exists. And you're right, Arhiman can't do that. But he's not the upper limit. Mephiston,

I'm sorry but in what world is Mephiston the upper limit?


I mean, he's the only living psker to contest the hive mind correct? Not only that, but he literally stops the DP Karbander from escaping his prison, he withstands psychic tests that literally cause all the other librarians' heads to explode, most chapters regard him as the most powerful librarian in the Astartes, he's spoken with the dead spirit of a Primarch, I mean, his list of psychic feats is almost as great as Dante's list of martial feats.

Yeah, he's top 10 among humans.

But he's still not as strong as some others....

Eisenhorne, Ravenor, Voke, Heldane, Malcador, any GK (not sure where they rank), etc.

Not sure where or how to rank Psykers but I know Mephy is up there near the top of humanity.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Irbis wrote:
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Again, if space magic exists, rules on what is normal do not exist. Therefor, you can't say what is normal or even possible. Because I have this magic mcguffin over here that allows me to break any rule. See my point?

Point is, what good is all the subtlety of a master assassin when you can literally just use magic?

This is literally as stupid take as claiming existence of Gandalf and Saruman in LotR means battles of Helms deep, Pelennor fields and black gate are pointless because Gandalf can just nuke Witch King with fireball. Or teleport into Mount Doom making Frodo pointless. Or Aragorn has no place in story because Gandalf is older, wiser, and can just cast mind control to make sure no one will ever do bad things again. Magic!

Would the naval fleet lancing the Chaos infested first hive have stopped it? Most likely yes.

Imagine USA nuking Detroit after first riot inside. No, it would most likely cause every single other hive to rebel at once. You don't realize how comical what you said sounds? Especially seeing Hives often have irreplaceable stuff from Dark Age sitting inside so this 'solution' is even dumber than it would be in RL?


If Detroit was the cause of the entire planet turning into daemons or 6 armed mutants, or slaneshi slaves, then yes, nuking Detroit makes sense. Think about the scale here. Detroit is a small cost for saving the entire planet, especially when the specific planet in question is the only place that a super specific and vital weapon is made. I don't think most Imperial leaders would bat an eye at the death of millions to save billions.


I hope that people with your POV never, ever, have a saying on the use of nukes or other WMD... Or else humanity might finally trespass the singularity it has been attempting in the las decades to achive... BUT INTO OBLIVION!!!


I agree, my Led Tasso came out on that last post. I apologize.
   
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Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
EviscerationPlague wrote:
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
So an inquisitor then. Point is, super John Wick's in Kink outfits with guns are completely pointless in a universe where magic exists. And you're right, Arhiman can't do that. But he's not the upper limit. Mephiston,

I'm sorry but in what world is Mephiston the upper limit?


I mean, he's the only living psker to contest the hive mind correct?


You're mistaking him with Tigurius, Chief Librarian of the Ultramarines. He is believed to currently be the most powerful Psyker in the Imperium. Mephy is certainly top 10, but he's not the strongest.

https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Varro_Tigurius


Automatically Appended Next Post:
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:


If Detroit was the cause of the entire planet turning into daemons or 6 armed mutants, or slaneshi slaves, then yes, nuking Detroit makes sense. Think about the scale here. Detroit is a small cost for saving the entire planet, especially when the specific planet in question is the only place that a super specific and vital weapon is made. I don't think most Imperial leaders would bat an eye at the death of millions to save billions.


Such action is of course never taken lightly even by the Imperium.

It is a simple weight of a million deaths to save billions, you save the billions by killing millions.

The Imperium of course will weigh other factors too. If a planet, or specific hive, had something of particular value, like a factory that is the only one that can make X valuable thing, they might decide against exterminatus even if the situation otherwise would call for it.

You weigh the option of taking it back by force. Throwing millions of guardsmen at a problem, which the Imperium has in abundance, vs the chance of those guardsmen spreading corruption once exposed to it when you do get your planet/hive back. How special is that hive/planet? Do you really really NEED that special valuable thing that can only be made there? Is it worth the chance of corruption possibly spreading via the masses of guardsmen who will be exposed through the process of you taking it back?

Maybe it is worth it? You can purge the surviving guardsmen, but some always slip through the cracks... Sometimes it is worth the trouble, sometimes its not and you gotta just Nuke Detroit.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/08/18 05:59:18


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