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Great video, and I'm glad they are are making adjustments before folks are able to buy the models. Be interesting to see how the army with all these changes shakes out in a few months once folks have had a chance to build armies and bring them to events.

Drong wrote:
Funny video, but what does he say at around 1:51 "And Molly is supposed to be alive at christmas anyway"?

"I'm only supposed to be alive at Christmas anyway"

Is nobody else upset at the gall it takes to laugh in their consumers faces after all this?

 Azreal13 wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

Games Workshop wrote:We've got a devoted rules team, and an amazing group of playtesters, but even after a rigorous testing period, sometimes we miss things that a passionate world-wide community of hundreds of thousands will quickly spot.

I don't believe you.

I don't believe that a group who has been doing this one thing for this long can be so bad at this at such a consistent level.

Yeaahhh......how many decades of practice do they need? The company has been doing 40k rules for 35 years now, and wargame rules in general for longer. You'd think that they'd have some sort of system by now. I find it hard to believe that they don't know just how strong things like auto-wounding mechanics are at this point.

Balance isn't the objective, the objective is constant flux. The only thing here that's not working as intended is they've pushed the limit a little too far that they've decided the push back may impact sales and walked it back.

Well, yes. That's what myself and (I think) H.B.M.C are saying: They did this on purpose, and knew exactly what they were doing. They've just realized that they went too far, and are walking it back. Sorry for not being more clear.

Yeah, I thought you thought they are actually trying to balance the game, rather than operating an already near-perfected miniatures selling vehicle.

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
They did this on purpose, and knew exactly what they were doing.

Hanlon's Razor. I just don't think they care if they create unbalanced things, unless it potentially impacts sales in a negative manner.

They were fine when people were buying 9 Voidweavers because it never reached the point where people were about to wholesale ban Harlis on a massive scale. Here they have a new army to sell, and it being banned before it even comes out? Can't have that!

 Fergie0044 wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Good show for acknowledging, apologising and doing something about it.

They're doing something because places are banning their new army they want people to buy.

People keep bringing this up, but isn't this standard practice in the Germany Tournament scene? No new codex until the FAQ is out.

Worth noting that the daemons codex is currently "banned" in the same events for this reason too. Not as many clickbaity community articles & yootoobers talking about that though.

I find it interesting that this is still an assumed ban, there haven't been any events they'd otherwise have been permitted to attend yet that banned them yes? The bulk of the army isn't available for purchase, none of the units are stand alone.

There can't have been any negative impact to the sales of the army yet as you can't buy them. Even failing that, most gamers are garage hammer or small club players where it need not apply. The biggest US events are now at least in partnership with GW and/or GW events so wouldn't be banning them.

As a result I don't think it's a fear of lack of sales forcing the change.

I know it's about sending a message with the bans, but I don't think the impact if they'd called people's bluff would have been as detrimental as people think.

 NAVARRO wrote:
One rule errata fair enough but so many points updates? What the hell is going on!

They released most busted codex ever but when tournaments started to ban them which would affect sales as try-hards won't buy army they can't use so had to tone down.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
They did this on purpose, and knew exactly what they were doing.

Hanlon's Razor. I just don't think they care if they create unbalanced things, unless it potentially impacts sales in a negative manner.

They were fine when people were buying 9 Voidweavers because it never reached the point where people were about to wholesale ban Harlis on a massive scale. Here they have a new army to sell, and it being banned before it even comes out? Can't have that!

Whether they care, or not, isn't the question. It's whether or not they know what they're doing when they create the unbalance. At this point, they have to know when they do it. It doesn't matter if they're fine with it, or not, or why they do it. The point is it isn't a mistake. They know what they're doing.

The pts-adjustments are waaay to harsh. The fact that even Thunderkyn (a unit no one has complained about because they where so meh) got hit with a 5ppm increase shows that they have no clue what they're doing and is simply acting in a panic before more events bann LoV. "Nerf everything, quickly!"

The change to autowounds counting as 6s is something I support, BUT with the added change that all the weapons with triggers on 6s to wound instead trigger on 6s to hit. With the new change, these triggers will more or less never procc on units with 3 JTs, which makes no sense from neither a fluff/logical PoV nor a rules PoV.
"We've built up a real grudge against that unit, now our weapons are less powerful!?"

These changes are half-assed, overdone and rushed. I predict that LoV will be a low-tier army untill some of them get reverted.

So my group are doing a Crusade starting Oct 1st. What about Power Level? Surely some of these points increases warrant a PL change too?

 xttz wrote:

 Fergie0044 wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Good show for acknowledging, apologising and doing something about it.

They're doing something because places are banning their new army they want people to buy.

People keep bringing this up, but isn't this standard practice in the Germany Tournament scene? No new codex until the FAQ is out.

Worth noting that the daemons codex is currently "banned" in the same events for this reason too. Not as many clickbaity community articles & yootoobers talking about that though.

Are daemons banned entirely or do they just have to use their old rules?
Squats don't have a compatible old ruleset to fall back on for tournaments, so that might make a difference.

No One Important wrote:

Are daemons banned entirely or do they just have to use their old rules?
Squats don't have a compatible old ruleset to fall back on for tournaments, so that might make a difference.

Yeah I believe they have to use their old book.

As I understand the German WTC also enforces a rule about not using units until the official model is released, which is the other driving factor of the 'ban'.

GW recognizes their mistake, apologize and offer a solution.
Love it.

Now this surely does not mean i am absolutely happy with the way 40k is treated/designed recently.
But it is without a doubt a step into the right direction!

Drong wrote:
Funny video, but what does he say at around 1:51 "And Molly is supposed to be alive at christmas anyway"?

I think he says "I'm only supposed to be alive at Christmas time anyway."

I wonder it this was done for next edition and they forgot to tone it down for current edition, that also would explain the gear on models that is not covered on the rules.

Either way this is not cool.

It's not just Germany.

The Legion of Voltron is banned in Egypt as well.

Y'know, for all 3 of us who play.

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Whether they care, or not, isn't the question. It's whether or not they know what they're doing when they create the unbalance. At this point, they have to know when they do it. It doesn't matter if they're fine with it, or not, or why they do it. The point is it isn't a mistake. They know what they're doing.

I don't think so.

We know that the 40k the studio plays is very different from what the actual rules are, so I don't think they know about the imbalances they create because they never see them, and, on top of that, I don't think they care enough to try and find them and play the game like everyone else does.

 MinscS2 wrote:
These changes are half-assed, overdone and rushed.

But how can that be, with their devoted rules team and amazing group of playtesters that put rules through rigorous testing periods? You must be mistaken.

 bullyboy wrote:
So my group are doing a Crusade starting Oct 1st. What about Power Level? Surely some of these points increases warrant a PL change too?

I can think of two answers to the power level question.

The first one is that because of the inherent limitations of the system, power level doesn't accurately reflect the value of units. Changing the old numbers that don't accurately reflect the value of units to new numbers that don't accurately reflect the value of units is considered unnecessary work by the designers because it doesn't change anything.

The second one is that the tournament crowd is in an uproar, and damage control is directed towards them. Hence point changes. Whereas GW operates under the belief that the narrative crowd doesn't object, and no action is required on that end.

Until people who use power level can threaten GW's bottom line, there's a good chance that the evaluation of GW's devoted rules team and amazing group of playtesters that put the power level values through rigorous testing periods to determine that those are the most balanced numbers they could achieve stands.

I'm glad that "release now, patch later" mindset has made it to the physical games market as well!

From WarCom...

How Did This Happen?
Warhammer 40,000 is a big, complex game with lots of factors to account for, and codexes are usually written and sent off for printing a good few months ahead of publication. In practice, this means it’s not always clear what kind of competitive environment a new book will drop into. In this instance, the army was tested against other recent books like Aeldari and Tyranids – many of which have seen their own increases in points and rules adjustments since their release to align with the wider game.

LMFAO!!!

Seriously?!?! GW just admitted their "play testing" isn't play testing at all.

Oh wow, first 40k codex I've bought in more than ten years (with some pretty models) and it's already mulch? Bought it for lore and art for the most part but my mates are going to have a good chuckle at my expense with this. We all believe that GW rule books are an absolute waste of perfectly good natural resources and incidents such as this just reinforce that.

 oni wrote:
From WarCom...

How Did This Happen?
Warhammer 40,000 is a big, complex game with lots of factors to account for, and codexes are usually written and sent off for printing a good few months ahead of publication. In practice, this means it’s not always clear what kind of competitive environment a new book will drop into. In this instance, the army was tested against other recent books like Aeldari and Tyranids – many of which have seen their own increases in points and rules adjustments since their release to align with the wider game.

LMFAO!!!

Seriously?!?! GW just admitted their "play testing" isn't play testing at all.

There isn't enough info to make that conclusion in full but yes in essence their playtesting is basically functional testing against other books of the same cycle if you will. This means that Eldar, Nids & Votann were likely written at the same time and tested against each other at the minimum and locked in sometime last year as a guess.

What we can't conclude in totality is whether they test against other books, whether they were staggered in any way, when they were tested and I think importantly which mission packs.

Dudeface wrote:

 oni wrote:
From WarCom...

How Did This Happen?
Warhammer 40,000 is a big, complex game with lots of factors to account for, and codexes are usually written and sent off for printing a good few months ahead of publication. In practice, this means it’s not always clear what kind of competitive environment a new book will drop into. In this instance, the army was tested against other recent books like Aeldari and Tyranids – many of which have seen their own increases in points and rules adjustments since their release to align with the wider game.

LMFAO!!!

Seriously?!?! GW just admitted their "play testing" isn't play testing at all.

There isn't enough info to make that conclusion in full but yes in essence their playtesting is basically functional testing against other books of the same cycle if you will. This means that Eldar, Nids & Votann were likely written at the same time and tested against each other at the minimum and locked in sometime last year as a guess.

What we can't conclude in totality is whether they test against other books, whether they were staggered in any way, when they were tested and I think importantly which mission packs.

I think it's crystal clear.

WarCom wrote:In this instance, the army was tested against other recent books

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Whether they care, or not, isn't the question. It's whether or not they know what they're doing when they create the unbalance. At this point, they have to know when they do it. It doesn't matter if they're fine with it, or not, or why they do it. The point is it isn't a mistake. They know what they're doing.

I don't think so.

We know that the 40k the studio plays is very different from what the actual rules are, so I don't think they know about the imbalances they create because they never see them, and, on top of that, I don't think they care enough to try and find them and play the game like everyone else does.

Anecdotal story, but a local guy I know apparently playtested during one of the phases of 30k 2.0. According to him, GW was getting frustrated with sending playtest documents to "the Americans" because the Americans kept pointing out problematic/unclear wording and/or stuff that was too weak/too strong.

Take with a grain of salt, because, you know, "I know a guy who knows a guy", but if that's how they operate it's especially funny.

That's a hefty points increase, I'm curious how players will adjust their armies with this.

Some players are definitely trying to melt their 3D prints back down after seeing those prices lol.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Whether they care, or not, isn't the question. It's whether or not they know what they're doing when they create the unbalance. At this point, they have to know when they do it. It doesn't matter if they're fine with it, or not, or why they do it. The point is it isn't a mistake. They know what they're doing.

I don't think so.

We know that the 40k the studio plays is very different from what the actual rules are, so I don't think they know about the imbalances they create because they never see them, and, on top of that, I don't think they care enough to try and find them and play the game like everyone else does.

So differently that they don't understand how strong having a widely available ability that skips a step in the long standing: hit-wound-save system for damage resolution is? I mean, they do have at least some rules writers that understand that stuff, they just work on other games. Maybe they should, I don't know, talk?

Rozenfire wrote:
Is nobody else upset at the gall it takes to laugh in their consumers faces after all this?

I agree. I found the video to be in good humor until the very last line "Well, I don't feel bad anymore." My impression immediately shifted to GW playing politics. They don't fething care. This is a hollow response to banning LoV because it could hurt sales.


This gives credence to a post I made a little while ago.

Oni wrote:Another case of GW's sales strategy on display. Make the initial release OP AF, sell the pulp out of it, then do one of two things...
1. Dial it back in an FAQ or address it in the worst thing GW has ever conceived, the Balance Dataslate (the thinly veiled attempt to assuage the competitive cancer slowly killing the whole organism). -OR-
2. Leave it be because they intended it to further devolve the edition as they plan to blow it all up and sell us a whole new "greatest edition ever".

When GW puts its sales strategy on blatant display like this, it also makes it obvious why the player-base distrusts the rules writers / design team.

This practice is what Kirby always alluded to when he would state that GW is a "model company" and not a game company. One has to read between the lines so to speak. The only thing that's changed within GW from Kirby to Roundtree is that Roundtree seems to be motivated to perfect the deceit and its concealment.

But in this case, the banning will hurt sales, so GW's hand was forced.

Now let's continue the ban/boycott to prove a point. Nobody buys their rhetoric of "oh we totally tested against other codices" garbage.