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For all intents and purposes the Dark Angels second founding chapters are technically independent, but will gladly return to the Rock and follow orders.

While I never was a big fan of the Lion and the DA (pre-heresy color scheme is sick though, now they just look like cucumbers), he's needed for the victories he can bring for the crumbling Imperium. While the DA are not what they once were during the Great Crusade, being the most powerful legion, under the Lion they can restore their reputation and fix the problem with the Fallen.

But the thing is, the Lion himself is a problem, and this is why I never liked him, upon his return I'm certain without a doubt that he will cause a ruckus as to why Gman is lord commander of the Imperium and not him. The Lion himself is not a great politician, he doesn't care for civilians like Gman and Vulkan (and pre-heresy Horus and Fulgrim), he will do anything to annihilate his target or threat, even at the cost of a whole human civilization. It's better if the enemy did the damage than one of your own, there's no justification for the Lion's action, and if I remember correctly Gman got angry when the Lion did bat gak stuff in the realm of Ultramar during the Heresy.

For the Lion's return it'd be better if he and his legion are sent off to fight the worst nightmares in the galaxy that already eat the Imperium away from every corner. The Lion isn't needed to bring more casualties to the Imperium than it already has.

The only reason why Horus was chosen Warmaster after the likes of Sanguinius and the Lion, is because Horus was the best politician and commander out of all the Primarchs, second comes Gman and this is why Gman is the Lord of the Imperium. None of the loyalist Primarchs have the skills and sets to lead the Imperium as Gman in the current setting.

The one loyalist Primarch I don't like and not a fan of the modern lore for Dark Angels so hopefully not

The Lion does make a good anti-hero I suppose - as FEar outlinned. He will cause more issues than help - although he might boot the DA out of their currently god level stupidity and self absorbtion.

Johnson is definitely a "My way or you're dead" kinda dude. When it comes to strategy he doesn't even let other Primarchs stand in his way, as shown with Leman Russ. He's pretty pragmatic that way.

I don't think he'll willingly play second fiddle to GMan. At best I think Johnson will see the political aspect of GMan's position as a waste of time, and let him pretend to be the puppet master of the Imperium while the Dark Angels get to the dirty work on their own terms. When they want, how they want, where they want. If that just-so-happens to be in line with GMan's wishes then it's just a happy coincidence.

I wonder what Johnson will think of the Church or would he care at all.

He seems to the type to consider going to war with them

Maybe he could take the mantle of ruler of the Dark Imperium from Dante, which the 'just let me die' Dante would most assuredly agree to. I'm thinking a Primarch would be better at handling that area than a mere Chapter Master.

 cuda1179 wrote:
Johnson is definitely a "My way or you're dead" kinda dude. When it comes to strategy he doesn't even let other Primarchs stand in his way, as shown with Leman Russ. He's pretty pragmatic that way.

I don't think he'll willingly play second fiddle to GMan. At best I think Johnson will see the political aspect of GMan's position as a waste of time, and let him pretend to be the puppet master of the Imperium while the Dark Angels get to the dirty work on their own terms. When they want, how they want, where they want. If that just-so-happens to be in line with GMan's wishes then it's just a happy coincidence.

That's the whole problem with the Lion, people bash Primarchs such as Horus, Fulgrim and Magnus for having big egos, pride, but the Lion is on a whole another level. The Lion never socialized, never cared to collaborate, never cared for civilians, only as long as it's done his own way, this is why he could never be Warmaster, and he can never be lord and commander of the Imperium like Gman. He is too stubborn and prideful, the only way I see the Lion collaborating with Gman is if he has a change of heart when he sees the crumbling Imperium, what has become of it. Like I said the Lion and the DA are needed to fight off the worst nightmares that eat away the Imperium, their ruthlessness will bring fear to into the hearts of the enemy, the only ones alike the DA and the Lion are Perturabo and the IW, but they turned traitors so I wonder what their encounter will be like.

 Mr Morden wrote:
I wonder what Johnson will think of the Church or would he care at all.

He seems to the type to consider going to war with them

That's one thing I'd like to see. The Lion would burn down the whole worship of the Emperor thing.

 ArcaneHorror wrote:
Maybe he could take the mantle of ruler of the Dark Imperium from Dante, which the 'just let me die' Dante would most assuredly agree to. I'm thinking a Primarch would be better at handling that area than a mere Chapter Master.

A Primarch can handle anything what a SM cannot.

I think there’s a good chance that Johnson would see himself as the defacto leader of the imperium except for one new addition to his character; shame.

He will curse and criticise Guillimans leadership whilst off trying to hunt down Luther and the fallen believing that he can’t take his rightful place until he has restored his honour.

He will also take command of all the unforgiven chapters making it look like he’s amassing an army, like Horus did.

And Bobby will see his desire to take over some day and will send him off to the corners of the galaxy, like Horus did, thus fuelling the resentment as history looks like it’s repeating itself

It’s a good story

Tsagualsa wrote:

Voss wrote:
If you say so.

The old, old stuff, sure. Just lore snippets. But if you think they weren't gearing up for Magnus and Roboute and more primarchs to follow in the _better part_ of the last 10 years (magnus was released in 2016), you missed a lot.

The Lion is the most obvious pick, especially with stories about things happening in dark depths of the Rock during Magnus' release which, again, was six years ago. People have been expecting the Lion for at least that long. So yeah, 'late' is the right word.

Dorn has a big-ish fanbase, but is kinda hindered by his comic book style off-screen dead.

Dorn went into the eye after losing his hand is all.
So we can have him back as easy as the rest of the “went off into warp places” Primarchs.

 F.E.A.R. wrote:
He is too stubborn and prideful, the only way I see the Lion collaborating with Gman is if he has a change of heart when he sees the crumbling Imperium, what has become of it

Did last 4 or 5 dudes here even read HH? Not only Lion and Rob did have a change of heart at the end of push to Terra, they agreed to fully cooperate in the future. If Lion returned, Rob would gladly let him play pretend warmaster as he then would finally have time to finally do something about Imperium's economy and politics. If anything, the conflict with Lion returned would be him pissed at the whole unforgiven nonsense and personally beheading a few of the DA commanders for treason (attacking other loyal forces and conspiring against the division of power). If there is anything Mr "Loyalty is its own reward" despises it's the scheming and disloyalty DA were sinking in during the last 10 millennia. Hell, it would be funny if they now had to hide it from him after he made clear what he thinks of backstabbers before they had the chance to come clean

Danny76 wrote:
Dorn went into the eye after losing his hand is all.
So we can have him back as easy as the rest of the “went off into warp places” Primarchs.

Except he was supposed to be torn apart by attacking CSM so retconning it would be really stupid now.

Also, why he would go into the Eye when his shame was he failed to protect Terra and the Emperor? That would be literally desertion of post he welded himself into post HH...

 Irbis wrote:

 F.E.A.R. wrote:
He is too stubborn and prideful, the only way I see the Lion collaborating with Gman is if he has a change of heart when he sees the crumbling Imperium, what has become of it

Did last 4 or 5 dudes here even read HH? Not only Lion and Rob did have a change of heart at the end of push to Terra, they agreed to fully cooperate in the future. If Lion returned, Rob would gladly let him play pretend warmaster as he then would finally have time to finally do something about Imperium's economy and politics. If anything, the conflict with Lion returned would be him pissed at the whole unforgiven nonsense and personally beheading a few of the DA commanders for treason (attacking other loyal forces and conspiring against the division of power). If there is anything Mr "Loyalty is its own reward" despises it's the scheming and disloyalty DA were sinking in during the last 10 millennia. Hell, it would be funny if they now had to hide it from him after he made clear what he thinks of backstabbers before they had the chance to come clean

Danny76 wrote:
Dorn went into the eye after losing his hand is all.
So we can have him back as easy as the rest of the “went off into warp places” Primarchs.

Except he was supposed to be torn apart by attacking CSM so retconning it would be really stupid now.

Also, why he would go into the Eye when his shame was he failed to protect Terra and the Emperor? That would be literally desertion of post he welded himself into post HH...

It has already been retconned ages ago - at first, the Imperial Fists found his mutilated body, later on that was changed to them just finding his severed hand with the rest of the body being missing. Imho that was always meant to shift the story from him being unquestionably and 'on-screen' dead to being more in line with the other Primarch's mysterious dissappearances.

Indeed.
All that was found was the hand. And they use that to jot their names on.
He disappeared. Presumably into a warp related battle etc

Let Lion take a bunch of the First Born Marines (to keep them relevant), and begin his own Crusade against Chaos. Blow open the secret of the Fallen, and just go ham, killing every traitor they find. Make DA the premire Anti-Chaos faction, with their own unique DAOT weapons.


Everyone expects Lion to go after Guilliman, but I think when he wakes up from his coma, he's gonna be PISSED that his homeworld betrayed him. He won't be paranoid about Guilliman. He will be paranoid about his own Legion.

I think it would be appropriate to have The Lion as defacto First Born Commander, while Guilliman pushes his Primaris as superior. Not at much a rival between Brothers, but from the troops themselves.

I had similar thought a while ago cos I didn’t like primaris, or the way they introduced them. But it doesn’t fit the character of the lion, primaris are a superior model and more effective in combat, he won’t be nostalgic about old marines, in fact he could take a fresh batch of primaris and wipe out all the Utrecht dark angles so they take their shameful secrets to the grave. That’s a bit over the top.

Also I think Azreal told Guilliman about Luther etc.

As they have just made azreal a primaris I think they are due to feature heavy in the arks of omen and I’m hoping that the fallen get an updated army list and a role to play in the narrative. Most likely the lion will just go after Luther but for the sake of narrative play Luther will be hiding out with this new Vashtorr chap so they will have to fight the arks of omen to get to him

mrFickle wrote:
I had similar thought a while ago cos I didn’t like primaris, or the way they introduced them. But it doesn’t fit the character of the lion, primaris are a superior model and more effective in combat, he won’t be nostalgic about old marines, in fact he could take a fresh batch of primaris and wipe out all the Utrecht dark angles so they take their shameful secrets to the grave. That’s a bit over the top.

Also I think Azreal told Guilliman about Luther etc.

As they have just made azreal a primaris I think they are due to feature heavy in the arks of omen and I’m hoping that the fallen get an updated army list and a role to play in the narrative. Most likely the lion will just go after Luther but for the sake of narrative play Luther will be hiding out with this new Vashtorr chap so they will have to fight the arks of omen to get to him

One of the themes of the Dark Angels is history repeating itself, and covering up shame leading to more shame down the road. The new Primaris could lead to a 'repeat' in that the Firstborn true marines are now in the same situation the original uplifted knights of Caliban were in the heresy: despite their battles and their sacrifices, they're relegated to second rank, given the bad jobs, replaced by newer, stronger, better models. On top of that, the Primaris are free of the central shame and secret of the chapter, not having existed being kind of a good excuse for having no part in the whole affair with the Fallen and Luther. That alone should provide enough potential conflict to give good-ish writers stories for decades.

Always enjoyed the interactions between Roboute and the Lion in the HH books. The two remind me of Clark Kent and Bruce Wayne: