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mrFickle wrote:
I think longer would be the next best choice after fulgrim.

The word bearers are chaos undivided, it’s almost a shame that they didn’t become the “big” chaos legion for 40K instead of black legion. However their relentless religion would be a useful tool in taking control of the dark imperium and an interesting way of showing the hypocrisy of the imperium.

Also they started all this it’s about time they got involved.

Same, I don't understand why they didn't become the leaders of the traitors instead we got the BL (Sons of Horus again). The WB were my intro to Chaos in DoW Dark Crusade.

Nobody likes the WB and Lorgar because they're inconsistently written, I get why people don't like them.

I'd say Lorgar is pretty consistent actually. When assured of his place in the universe he is confident and bold to the point of hubris. He leads from the front and is zealous in his prosecution of the foe.
Yet when he falters in his assurance he becomes weak and influenceable. When his plans start to unravel or things don't go his way he panics. We see it when the Emperor humbles him, when he is nearly killed by Corax on Isstvan V, and when he feels Horus should be removed and replaced by himself. Indeed those who influence him in this weakened state often bear the brunt of his rage and hubris when he is revitalised, Erebus and Kor Phaeron being the chief culprits. And as with all Primarchs, there are many amongst the Traitor Legions who blame them for the failure of the Heresy, for choosing petty vendettas and personal glory over tactics and strategy. When they ascended to Daemonhood, the Primarchs also largely abandoned their Legions to play the Great Game. The Astartes were left to fend for themselves and that ended up causing the Legion Wars.

As for the Word Bearers themselves, they are widely regarded as religious nutbags. If you don't worship the Pantheon then you aren't worth their time and they will kill you for it. They have mountains of charisma but aren't well-liked by their fellow Legions, even during the Crusade and Heresy. When they get corrupted by Chaos and become the first true Traitor Legion, they gain a massive superiority complex which in turn endears them even less among their Legion peers.

The biggest reason that the mortal forces of Chaos flock to Abaddon's banner is because allegiance to him casts off the shame of the past. Donning the black isn't just a style choice but a statement to the other Legions that the past is dead and those that led the Legions in the past are not worth being loyal to. Abaddon was a gamble on a new future, one where he leads the Legions to victory against the Imperium, one that many Astartes were willing to take. Better to serve a master who hasn't led you to failure yet than one who already has.

It's going to be Fulgrim next, that is almost assured. I even bet the models for the EC release are all done just waiting for a release slot with rules in 10th.


If they were to bring Lorgar back, I feel like they'd need to do some retconning and introduce a lot new lore and events to make him worthwhile. Like a lot of folks said, Abbadon sort of already fills that role, but Lorgar would really need something that embodies all 4 Chaos Gods in Daemon form to really make it worth it. Maybe making Him as their new pure undivided Champion with all the power to go with it, to somehow humble Abbadon.

Perturabo could be interesting if they make him an agent of Vashtorr instead of the Chaos Gods. I think that could open up a lot of cool doors and uniqueness.

I mean even if Lorgar was to be the Daemon equivalent of Abaddon, that still partially exists with Belakor. He is the most powerful Undivided Daemon and the only real difference between him and Lorgar would be that the former is rebellious whereas the latter is subservient.

 Gert wrote:
He is the most powerful Undivided Daemon

Doubt.

I kind of hope they never bring back Perturabo, because making him another Daemon Primarch is boring and doesn't really do the character justice. He should be the sole Primarch on the side of Chaos to remain "mortal", if such a word can be used to describe one of the Emperor's sons.

 F.E.A.R. wrote:

 Gert wrote:

Why does he need to be Warmaster? There already is a Warmaster and he's actually done something with his 10k years instead of sitting meditating and getting beaten up by Corax. Lorgar doesn't have the favour Abaddon does, nor does he have the loyalty of his troops in the same way Abaddon does.
Erebus is very much not dead, he leads the Dark Council. Kor Phaeron is also not dead and also sort of leads the Dark Council. Both have defacto command of the Word Bearers and worried Lorgar's return would remove their hold on the Legion.
Post-turning to Chaos Lorgar thinks that he is more important than everyone else, and gets constantly reminded that the Gods use him as a pawn and he isn't actually their chosen instrument. To top it all off, all of the Traitor Primarchs submitted to Abaddon before the 13th Black Crusade and while they might have their own plans, Abaddon is still the head honcho of Chaos.

Many are displeased with Abaddon's character, even Hansou would be a better Warmaster than Abaddon. But that's beside the point. The point is, the Imperium now has a Primarch leading it, Gman, it would make sense for a traitor Primarch to take Abaddon's position as Warmaster.

I didn't said that Kor Phaeron is dead, I only thought about Erebus since nobody likes the guy and I completely forgot about him.

 Gert wrote:
I'm not sure what exactly you're meaning. The Emperor's Children are an active Legion, they raid and conquer just like all the other Legions and were the most powerful Legion during the Legion Wars in the Eye of Terror. They also have a secret council that leads the Legion from the shadows.

They don't have their Primarch, we very well know that they, like the WE (almost all traitor legions) are scattered in warbands, but now with the Return of Angron, the WE will be united again. Morty leads his whole legion under his command, same as Magnus, that's the whole point. They're a much bigger threat when they're lead by their Primarchs instead of commanders and high officials. They may be an active legion and may have been the most powerful legion in the Eye of Terror, but there hasn't been any reveals through the decades about them, we only have the concept of how the Noise Marines look, how do the Phoenix Guard and Palatines Blade look like now? We never had a glimpse of their full arsenal post-heresy, unlike the other traitor legions. Without the leadership of Fulgrim, revealing their full arsenal and uniting under the banner, I wouldn't call them an "active" legion like the DG under Morty.

Not to yuck your yum, but I personally wouldn't like to see things go in the direction you're describing. Love or hate Abaddon, at least he's a product of the 41st millenium and is treading slightly newer ground by not being enamored with his primarch. Plus there's a pleasant asymmetry to putting an angry astartes and his band of angry rebels up against a full on primarch known for absurd degrees of order that I like. Making Lorgar the face of chaos just for the sake of symmetry/love of primarchs/his history with Guilliman feels a bit too obvious and a bit too much like something out of 30k. Plus, as others have mentioned, Lorgar isn't exactly a broadly popular figure. Sure, he has supernatural charisma (mind control?), but that's sort of cheating and probably not a great method of control when you need to send people to the opposite end of the galaxy to accomplish something. He certainly doesn't feel like a good fit for the less worshippy factions like the Night Lords and Alpha Legion.

I'm also not sure what you've got against the Emperor's Children. Like many of the other traitor legions, they're shattered and mostly follow the whims of their local warlords, but that's pretty inkeeping with both chaos marines in general and Slaaneshi factions specifically. Part of the appeal of EC is that they can be pursuing whatever gaudy, frivolous, personal goals your particular warband happens to be obsessed with. It gives them variety and an excuse to pop up all over the galactic map. Even if Fulgrim were to return (and he almost certainly will be next in line after Angron), the BL novels seem to hint that a lot of the ECs stopped being terribly interested in working with/for him a while ago. Like Mortarion, he'd probably be able to reliably call upon some of his legions' splinters, but not all (or even most?) of them.


But yeah. Fulgrim is almost certainly the next traitor primarch to return, and possibly the only remaining one that I'm actually interested in seeing return. (And even then, mostly because the Morathi model is cool and I want to see what snakey Sephiroth looks like.)
Horus - Dead, and undoing that would give me comic book style "death is a revolving door" cringe.
Alpharius/Omegon - As big a fan as I am of the twins, and as much as I'd love for both/either of their lame "canon" deaths to be proved false, I definitely don't want to see them on the tabletop. If either of them are still alive, they're far more interesting as an unanswered question, and they're also more interesting as masterminds than as tabletop force multipliers/beatsticks.
Perturabo - Tbf, I haven't read his HH novels, but on paper he seems like the most boring of all the primarchs even if he is the workhorse of the Heresy. What would he even look like on the table? Just a big ol' slab of guns and muscle? Kinda dull. Probably at risk of being OP or underwhelming. Actually, that last part applies to all primarchs in general really.
Kurze - Is more fun dead. See above about the revolving door cringe. Say he comes back. What does he add other than one more over the top spooky, edgy monster in a setting that's already full of them?
Angron - Is coming or here or whatever. I get that some people like the tragedy of his HH story, but I don't see him making the story or the game more interesting. As with Kurze, what does he add other than another big, red, angry guy? This is even more of an issue for Khorne whose units are already really monotonous. Oh boy. Another beatstick. Just what Khorne armies needed.
Lorgar - Could potentially be used in an interesting way. The problem is that his elevator pitch is that he's just really big on all the standard chaos worshipping stuff, but moreso and unexpectedly shiny. What does he theoretically add to the story? Your Word Bearers go from being zealous chaos worshippers to... zealous chaos worshippers. Oh, and he's totally about to conquer some system you've never heard of unless... *rolls the dice and consults a table* Prince Yriel of Iyanden can stop him. Mechanically, he, like any daemon primarch, is probably just going to be some overpowered mess upon release only to get quickly nerfed into the ground and then occassionally rebroken. But by virtue of trying to be a Big Deal, he will have a high points cost that makes him extremely hard to balance as he'll either die turn one or win the game single-handedly.

So I guess I want Fulgrim to return for the model and for his *lack* of an impact on the plot, and everyone else can remain as they are.

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 Gert wrote:
He is the most powerful Undivided Daemon

Doubt.

I kind of hope they never bring back Perturabo, because making him another Daemon Primarch is boring and doesn't really do the character justice. He should be the sole Primarch on the side of Chaos to remain "mortal", if such a word can be used to describe one of the Emperor's sons.

Perturabo fairly famously ascended to daemonhood during the Scouring off the back of the Iron Cage incident where he led the Imperial Fists into a semi ritualised mass slaughter.

 Wyldhunt wrote:


So I guess I want Fulgrim to return for the model and for his *lack* of an impact on the plot, and everyone else can remain as they are.

I guess that if they return all the Primarchs eventually, they'll do something they think is interesting or include plot twists for some of the less popular ones; probably something like killing one, having one fall to chaos and maybe even having a traitor repent and become anti-chaos, if not outright imperial. For example, Alpharius/Omegon could become ambiguously killed again, the Khan could fall and Perti could rebel against 'mainstream' chaos in the eye or sth. - it's the sort of 'I can't believe it's not plot advancement' comic book turn they're in love with right now.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Doubt.

I mean, I'm not sure how it's a doubt. He was the first Daemon Prince elevated by the Dark Gods, and while he isn't as powerful as he was in his earliest days he still commands great power as well as legions of Daemon and mortal forces. He also happens to be one of Abaddon's inner circle.

I kind of hope they never bring back Perturabo, because making him another Daemon Primarch is boring and doesn't really do the character justice. He should be the sole Primarch on the side of Chaos to remain "mortal", if such a word can be used to describe one of the Emperor's sons.

You're a couple of decades behind the times there buddy. Perturabo has been a Daemon Primarch since like 2003.

 Sasori wrote:
It's going to be Fulgrim next, that is almost assured. I even bet the models for the EC release are all done just waiting for a release slot with rules in 10th.


If they were to bring Lorgar back, I feel like they'd need to do some retconning and introduce a lot new lore and events to make him worthwhile. Like a lot of folks said, Abbadon sort of already fills that role, but Lorgar would really need something that embodies all 4 Chaos Gods in Daemon form to really make it worth it. Maybe making Him as their new pure undivided Champion with all the power to go with it, to somehow humble Abbadon.

Perturabo could be interesting if they make him an agent of Vashtorr instead of the Chaos Gods. I think that could open up a lot of cool doors and uniqueness.

The word bearers are the ultramarines main nemesis amongst the traitor legions, I think that’s all that GW would need considering ultramarines are the GW poster boys for 40K.

Except that's not how GW does "Main Factions" for an army. They take the "generic" all-rounder faction as the representative (with some exceptions on model releases).
Plus, having the reason for the main Chaos faction being the main Chaos faction entirely down to another faction is rubbish.

There's one problem with Perturabo, while many people want him to return, they want him to return normal and not a Daemon prince of Chaos.

All of the Primarchs falls to Chaos are forced even though they have been setup as traitors before they got their backstory. They have no reason to turn to Chaos, and the biggest reason they turn traitors is because of the Emps without denying is a prick.

Perturabo's story is written that he despises Chaos, just like Mortarion, but he is forced to become a Daemon Prince because of his injury by Fulgrim. This is a problem with bad writing, you have Primarchs set up to be traitors and Daemon Princes only to put in the story "but they didn't want to, they were forced to, also because their father was a prick".

I'd have each traitor Primarch return (except Horus he's dead) as long as they have their backstory retconned and given a much better reason for their turn to Chaos.

Tsagualsa wrote:
the Khan could fall and Perti could rebel against 'mainstream' chaos in the eye or sth. - it's the sort of 'I can't believe it's not plot advancement' comic book turn they're in love with right now.

Don't believe so, the Khan cannot fall because he wasn't set up to fall neither Perty can rebel against Chaos, that would ultimately doom his soul. If we retconn the swapping of Fulgrim and the Khan (by Cegorach), then we would have the Khan traitor just as The Emperor expected and Fulgrim loyal, because the one who lands on Chemos is destined to be a servant of Slaanesh while the other who lands on Chogoris stays loyal and also becomes a servant of Cegorach. Fulgrim was supposed to be Cegorach Phoenix, rising from the ashes to deny Slaanesh.

 F.E.A.R. wrote:
T

Tsagualsa wrote:
the Khan could fall and Perti could rebel against 'mainstream' chaos in the eye or sth. - it's the sort of 'I can't believe it's not plot advancement' comic book turn they're in love with right now.

Don't believe so, the Khan cannot fall because he wasn't set up to fall neither Perty can rebel against Chaos, that would ultimately doom his soul. If we retconn the swapping of Fulgrim and the Khan (by Cegorach), then we would have the Khan traitor just as The Emperor expected and Fulgrim loyal, because the one who lands on Chemos is destined to be a servant of Slaanesh while the other who lands on Chogoris stays loyal and also becomes a servant of Cegorach. Fulgrim was supposed to be Cegorach Phoenix, rising from the ashes to deny Slaanesh.

As i said, i think that shaking the roster up by pointless falls and repentances is something they'd probably do with the 'superfluous' primarchs - it's not something that's on the schedule for the next decade or so, but i think it's inevitable, as is killing of at least one returned primarch at least temporarily.

On the question of Perturabo, the novels are littered with hints that his demonhood is a special case, that he somehow retained more of his original soul and more indepence than the other ascended Primarchs, and stuff like that. It need not amount to anything in the future of course, but that's one of these plot-seeds they strew here and there to keep the option for redemption arcs and whatever at least in the back pocket.

Tsagualsa wrote:

 F.E.A.R. wrote:
T

Tsagualsa wrote:
the Khan could fall and Perti could rebel against 'mainstream' chaos in the eye or sth. - it's the sort of 'I can't believe it's not plot advancement' comic book turn they're in love with right now.

Don't believe so, the Khan cannot fall because he wasn't set up to fall neither Perty can rebel against Chaos, that would ultimately doom his soul. If we retconn the swapping of Fulgrim and the Khan (by Cegorach), then we would have the Khan traitor just as The Emperor expected and Fulgrim loyal, because the one who lands on Chemos is destined to be a servant of Slaanesh while the other who lands on Chogoris stays loyal and also becomes a servant of Cegorach. Fulgrim was supposed to be Cegorach Phoenix, rising from the ashes to deny Slaanesh.

As i said, i think that shaking the roster up by pointless falls and repentances is something they'd probably do with the 'superfluous' primarchs - it's not something that's on the schedule for the next decade or so, but i think it's inevitable, as is killing of at least one returned primarch at least temporarily.

On the question of Perturabo, the novels are littered with hints that his demonhood is a special case, that he somehow retained more of his original soul and more indepence than the other ascended Primarchs, and stuff like that. It need not amount to anything in the future of course, but that's one of these plot-seeds they strew here and there to keep the option for redemption arcs and whatever at least in the back pocket.

The implication of the Iron Cage event seems to be that part of his motivation was sticking one to Dorn by ascending to daemonhood off the back of the mass slaughter of the latter’s sons.

The more modern HH seems to added a thread of ‘if you can’t change them, join them’ as well, particularly in Angel Exterminatus and the Siege of Terra book where he goes off in a huff at the end.

 F.E.A.R. wrote:
There's one problem with Perturabo, while many people want him to return, they want him to return normal and not a Daemon prince of Chaos.

All of the Primarchs falls to Chaos are forced even though they have been setup as traitors before they got their backstory. They have no reason to turn to Chaos, and the biggest reason they turn traitors is because of the Emps without denying is a prick.

Perturabo's story is written that he despises Chaos, just like Mortarion, but he is forced to become a Daemon Prince because of his injury by Fulgrim. This is a problem with bad writing, you have Primarchs set up to be traitors and Daemon Princes only to put in the story "but they didn't want to, they were forced to, also because their father was a prick".

I'd have each traitor Primarch return (except Horus he's dead) as long as they have their backstory retconned and given a much better reason for their turn to Chaos.

Tsagualsa wrote:
the Khan could fall and Perti could rebel against 'mainstream' chaos in the eye or sth. - it's the sort of 'I can't believe it's not plot advancement' comic book turn they're in love with right now.

Don't believe so, the Khan cannot fall because he wasn't set up to fall neither Perty can rebel against Chaos, that would ultimately doom his soul. If we retconn the swapping of Fulgrim and the Khan (by Cegorach), then we would have the Khan traitor just as The Emperor expected and Fulgrim loyal, because the one who lands on Chemos is destined to be a servant of Slaanesh while the other who lands on Chogoris stays loyal and also becomes a servant of Cegorach. Fulgrim was supposed to be Cegorach Phoenix, rising from the ashes to deny Slaanesh.

This is why I really like the idea of Perturabo being elevated by Vashtorr, instead of Chaos. He becomes a Daemon Primarch, but since it's a not a part of Chaos, he would still have more independence than the other Primarchs and fit with his whole spiel of rebelling against Chaos. I think his character would also fit a lot more with Vashtorr than any of the Chaos gods too.

 Gert wrote:

I mean, I'm not sure how it's a doubt. He was the first Daemon Prince elevated by the Dark Gods, and while he isn't as powerful as he was in his earliest days he still commands great power as well as legions of Daemon and mortal forces. He also happens to be one of Abaddon's inner circle.

Because Be'lakor is a loser who gets trivially bamboozled in less plot relevant short stories by Ahriman, among others. It wouldn't surprise me if there was some canon statement he is the greatest of the Undivided princes but he is not really treated nearly as respectfully as the Daemon Primarchs most of the time. Which is saying something, because they're treated like gak.

You're a couple of decades behind the times there buddy. Perturabo has been a Daemon Primarch since like 2003.

Yes I'm aware which is why I hope he never gets brought back. It's a boring direction to take the character and GW don't have the balls to retcon it.

I wonder if there is a more interesting way Lorgar or Perturabo could reenter the narrative? If not with models and stats, then at least pushing the story somehow?

Lorgar, being the great betrayer, would be perfect for some twist of some kind. Perhaps Lorgar will reveal that the Great Rift was his design, like the first ruinstorm. Perhaps all these raids and attacks by the Word Bearers for the last ten millennia were laying the groundwork. Maybe all some of Abbadon's acolytes had been whispering Lorgar's plans in his ear. Then we could have Lorgar try and snatch power from Abaddon, because of course he would.

Purturabo could be a little more strait forward and he simply sees the dark imperium as an opportunity to expand his territory. You'll never see him on the battlefield because he's simply become obsessed with fortifying and conquering more land so he then build and fortify even more fortresses. Like the worst case of OCD ever seen. But could lead to some interesting power dynamics. Some more tensions amongst the forces of chaos and an imperium stuck in the middle of it.

I don't need stats for my favorite primarchs but it could be fun to see them pop up in the stories from time to time.

 Mr Nobody wrote:
I wonder if there is a more interesting way Lorgar or Perturabo could reenter the narrative? If not with models and stats, then at least pushing the story somehow?

The stuff they're quite heavy-handedly introducing in the HH novels, namely around the concept of primarch 'shards', points to the possibility of commercializing them even further. You can do all sorts of gimmicks with that: different versions of the same primarch, like a 'Odin' Russ that's more of a old, wise man, at the same time as a bestial 'Wulfen' Russ. Loyal Shards of traitor Primarchs. Fallen Shards of loyal Primarchs. Characters that turn out to be Primarch shards with amnesia. 'Dead' Primarchs that have actually only been sharded, with one or more of the shards returning...

Tsagualsa wrote:

 Mr Nobody wrote:
I wonder if there is a more interesting way Lorgar or Perturabo could reenter the narrative? If not with models and stats, then at least pushing the story somehow?

The stuff they're quite heavy-handedly introducing in the HH novels, namely around the concept of primarch 'shards', points to the possibility of commercializing them even further. You can do all sorts of gimmicks with that: different versions of the same primarch, like a 'Odin' Russ that's more of a old, wise man, at the same time as a bestial 'Wulfen' Russ. Loyal Shards of traitor Primarchs. Fallen Shards of loyal Primarchs. Characters that turn out to be Primarch shards with amnesia. 'Dead' Primarchs that have actually only been sharded, with one or more of the shards returning...

Can you expand on this insanity, Tsagualsa?

Pretty sure it's just Magnus that had that because he's a Wizard.
There is a psychic echo of Sanguinius on the Vengeful Spirit (because it was an intense psychic trauma) and Ferrus' soul was summoned by the Emperor during the Webway War but only Magnus had shards of his soul made.

 Gert wrote:
Pretty sure it's just Magnus that had that because he's a Wizard.
There is a psychic echo of Sanguinius on the Vengeful Spirit (because it was an intense psychic trauma) and Ferrus' soul was summoned by the Emperor during the Webway War but only Magnus had shards of his soul made.

There's also the sanguinor for blood angels. No idea what it is though.

Still, there's something to be said for some warp shenanigans if you didn't want to have a full-on primarch on the table.

The Sanguinor is not a shard of Sanguinius but rather something different.
It is a sort of Daemon bound to the fate of the Blood Angels lineage, one that brings hope and victory for those of The Blood. It is likely that the form was taken when the Legionary known as The Herald sacrificed himself to allow the 9th Legion passage through the Ruinstorm to Terra, where he threw himself and the Daemon Madail into a Warp portal where he transformed into an angelic being as he was consumed by the Warp.
There are those who believe the Sanguinor is Sanguinius' noble spirit reincarnated in a new form, and the Sanguinary Guard believes it is the founder of their order, Azkaellon, who has been preserved by the power of the Emperor. Some believe it is the soul of a brother seeking redemption and others who believe it is a myth, nothing but the imagination of those who fall to the Black Rage.
All anyone knows for sure is that the Sanguinor only appears during times of great sorrow and hardship for the linage of Sanguinius and the battles it appears at very rarely have survivors left to tell the tale.

 Mr Nobody wrote:

 Gert wrote:
Pretty sure it's just Magnus that had that because he's a Wizard.
There is a psychic echo of Sanguinius on the Vengeful Spirit (because it was an intense psychic trauma) and Ferrus' soul was summoned by the Emperor during the Webway War but only Magnus had shards of his soul made.

There's also the sanguinor for blood angels. No idea what it is though.

Still, there's something to be said for some warp shenanigans if you didn't want to have a full-on primarch on the table.

Not only that, but also the Black Angel of Baal; at this point there are at least two demigod-level Warp Entities running around that are directly linked to Baal and the Blood Angels: the Golden Angel and the Black Angel of Baal. The Black Angel is currently possessing Mephiston or rather Mephiston is voluntarily acting as a prison for it, while the case of the Golden Angel is not entirely clear - it may be that it is another possible origin for the Sanguinor, but both angels are also no longer restrained by causality and linear flow of time, so it's probably not as simple as that.