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With Chaos and the traitors always being way more interesting than the loyalists, which traitor Primarch do you like to return next?

I personally like Lorgar to return next and declare himself Warmaster leading the traitors under the banner of Chaos Undivided. Lorgar is the perfect traitor Primarch to return and lead the forces of Chaos as a whole, while I do like the others to return first like Fulgrim and Perturabo, Lorgar makes the most sense. One thing that I want to come out as a plot twist would be Lorgar returning in human form, perfectly looking like he was 10,000 years ago, except he has the markings of Chaos, proving that Chaos and humans CAN coexist. Able to change from human form to daemon form at will.

I am not a big fan of post-heresy EC and Fulgrim, him returning would make for an interesting setting. Would like to know how does the rest of EC look like now, the Phoenix Guard, and how powerful would they be with their sonic weaponry.
Many argue that Fulgrim and the EC would quickly get bored and leave the battlefield, just like at the Siege of Terra, but I digress, the only way for Fulgrim and the EC to be active is if Slaanesh orders them to do so, because they’re bound to Slaanesh’s will, bored or not they will have to carry out tasks and join under Lorgar’s banner. One interesting thing to make Fulgrim and the EC angry and fight you to the last breath is to humiliate them like Raylanor did.

Perturabo would also be interesting just like Lorgar, him teaming up with the Dark Mechanicum would bring a lot of positive stuff for the forces of Chaos. This will give Perturabo the opportunity to build stuff and unleash sick weaponry in the galaxy.

Morty has been active and I like him and the Death Guard, but I never liked Nurgle, it’s just yuck.

Magnus and the TS are cool. Would like to see more Warp magic stuff and flying saucers.

Angron is one dimensional.

Curze is dead IDK if he can be revived by Lorgar, and Horus got a DBZ move by the Emperor and he’s never coming back.

Not sure why Lorgar would suddenly be Warmaster. He couldn't do it in the Heresy and his Legion is smaller than the Black Legion, which doesn't account for the many Warbands, Companies, Renegade Chapters, Titan Legions, Dark Mechanicum sects, and human Cults that are aligned to Abaddon.
His top Legion commanders, Erebus and Kor Phaeron aren't even loyal to him.

The only real choice is Fulgrim to finish off the God Marked quartet.

 Gert wrote:
Not sure why Lorgar would suddenly be Warmaster. He couldn't do it in the Heresy and his Legion is smaller than the Black Legion, which doesn't account for the many Warbands, Companies, Renegade Chapters, Titan Legions, Dark Mechanicum sects, and human Cults that are aligned to Abaddon.
His top Legion commanders, Erebus and Kor Phaeron aren't even loyal to him.

The only real choice is Fulgrim to finish off the God Marked quartet.

I think he'd be the most suitable of the traitor Primarchs to be a Warmaster of Chaos? Sure he wasn't great during the Heresy but meditating for 10,000 years and gaining the favor of the Gods surely would make for something positive? GW have been writing themselves in corners and plot hole throughout the years so making Lorgar charismatic and a great politician of Chaos (thanks to the blessings of the Gods) out of nowhere would be more of a benefit instead of a negative. As for Erebus, he wasn't loyal from the start and I thought he was dead after he got his face flayed by Horus, and IDK about Kor Phaeron.

Fulgrim would make a great return but at what cost? People underestimate Fulgrim's power, I mean he's the one who killed Ferrus, almost killed Gman and did damage to Perturabo taking a fracture of his soul for him to achieve daemonhood. Fulgrim and the EC came out victorious over Ferrus and the IH, the Kakophoni did serious damage during Isvaan III. But when they reached the Siege of Terra, because of their corruption of Slaanesh, they got bored and did nasty stuff on civilians. This is the problem with Fulgrim and EC, unless forced by Slaanesh, they will not be an active legion, otherwise the same thing would repeat, boredom.

 F.E.A.R. wrote:
I think he'd be the most suitable of the traitor Primarchs to be a Warmaster of Chaos? Sure he wasn't great during the Heresy but meditating for 10,000 years and gaining the favor of the Gods surely would make for something positive? GW have been writing themselves in corners and plot hole throughout the years so making Lorgar charismatic and a great politician of Chaos (thanks to the blessings of the Gods) out of nowhere would be more of a benefit instead of a negative. As for Erebus, he wasn't loyal from the start and I thought he was dead after he got his face flayed by Horus, and IDK about Kor Phaeron.

Why does he need to be Warmaster? There already is a Warmaster and he's actually done something with his 10k years instead of sitting meditating and getting beaten up by Corax. Lorgar doesn't have the favour Abaddon does, nor does he have the loyalty of his troops in the same way Abaddon does.
Erebus is very much not dead, he leads the Dark Council. Kor Phaeron is also not dead and also sort of leads the Dark Council. Both have defacto command of the Word Bearers and worried Lorgar's return would remove their hold on the Legion.
Post-turning to Chaos Lorgar thinks that he is more important than everyone else, and gets constantly reminded that the Gods use him as a pawn and he isn't actually their chosen instrument. To top it all off, all of the Traitor Primarchs submitted to Abaddon before the 13th Black Crusade and while they might have their own plans, Abaddon is still the head honcho of Chaos.

Fulgrim would make a great return but at what cost? People underestimate Fulgrim's power, I mean he's the one who killed Ferrus, almost killed Gman and did damage to Perturabo taking a fracture of his soul for him to achieve daemonhood. Fulgrim and the EC came out victorious over Ferrus and the IH, the Kakophoni did serious damage during Isvaan III. But when they reached the Siege of Terra, because of their corruption of Slaanesh, they got bored and did nasty stuff on civilians. This is the problem with Fulgrim and EC, unless forced by Slaanesh, they will not be an active legion, otherwise the same thing would repeat, boredom.

I'm not sure what exactly you're meaning. The Emperor's Children are an active Legion, they raid and conquer just like all the other Legions and were the most powerful Legion during the Legion Wars in the Eye of Terror. They also have a secret council that leads the Legion from the shadows.

 Gert wrote:

Why does he need to be Warmaster? There already is a Warmaster and he's actually done something with his 10k years instead of sitting meditating and getting beaten up by Corax. Lorgar doesn't have the favour Abaddon does, nor does he have the loyalty of his troops in the same way Abaddon does.
Erebus is very much not dead, he leads the Dark Council. Kor Phaeron is also not dead and also sort of leads the Dark Council. Both have defacto command of the Word Bearers and worried Lorgar's return would remove their hold on the Legion.
Post-turning to Chaos Lorgar thinks that he is more important than everyone else, and gets constantly reminded that the Gods use him as a pawn and he isn't actually their chosen instrument. To top it all off, all of the Traitor Primarchs submitted to Abaddon before the 13th Black Crusade and while they might have their own plans, Abaddon is still the head honcho of Chaos.

Many are displeased with Abaddon's character, even Hansou would be a better Warmaster than Abaddon. But that's beside the point. The point is, the Imperium now has a Primarch leading it, Gman, it would make sense for a traitor Primarch to take Abaddon's position as Warmaster.

I didn't said that Kor Phaeron is dead, I only thought about Erebus since nobody likes the guy and I completely forgot about him.

 Gert wrote:
I'm not sure what exactly you're meaning. The Emperor's Children are an active Legion, they raid and conquer just like all the other Legions and were the most powerful Legion during the Legion Wars in the Eye of Terror. They also have a secret council that leads the Legion from the shadows.

They don't have their Primarch, we very well know that they, like the WE (almost all traitor legions) are scattered in warbands, but now with the Return of Angron, the WE will be united again. Morty leads his whole legion under his command, same as Magnus, that's the whole point. They're a much bigger threat when they're lead by their Primarchs instead of commanders and high officials. They may be an active legion and may have been the most powerful legion in the Eye of Terror, but there hasn't been any reveals through the decades about them, we only have the concept of how the Noise Marines look, how do the Phoenix Guard and Palatines Blade look like now? We never had a glimpse of their full arsenal post-heresy, unlike the other traitor legions. Without the leadership of Fulgrim, revealing their full arsenal and uniting under the banner, I wouldn't call them an "active" legion like the DG under Morty.

 F.E.A.R. wrote:
Many are displeased with Abaddon's character, even Hansou would be a better Warmaster than Abaddon. But that's beside the point. The point is, the Imperium now has a Primarch leading it, Gman, it would make sense for a traitor Primarch to take Abaddon's position as Warmaster.

I didn't said that Kor Phaeron is dead, I only thought about Erebus since nobody likes the guy and I completely forgot about him.

Many in universe or many IRL? Because in-universe that isn't true. Abaddon has unrivaled support from those outside of his Legion, a Legion that also happens to be the largest Chaos Legion. Lorgar has just the Word Bearers. The large fleet belonging to the Black Legion also contains at least three Glorianna class vessels alongside many Space Hulks and the Planet Killer. The Word Bearers don't have their Glorianna and it's not clear what happened to the remaining Abyss class vessels. Abaddon is also an extremely good tactician both in ground and naval warfare. Lorgar is charismatic but his tactics were never particularly inspired nor was he ever a combat powerhouse. His Daemon aspect may lend him some power but Abaddon still wields the Talon and Drachnyen.
Abaddon is the Chosen of the Pantheon, Lorgar is not.

They don't have their Primarch, we very well know that they, like the WE (almost all traitor legions) are scattered in warbands, but now with the Return of Angron, the WE will be united again. Morty leads his whole legion under his command, same as Magnus, that's the whole point. They're a much bigger threat when they're lead by their Primarchs instead of commanders and high officials. They may be an active legion and may have been the most powerful legion in the Eye of Terror, but there hasn't been any reveals through the decades about them, we only have the concept of how the Noise Marines look, how do the Phoenix Guard and Palatines Blade look like now? We never had a glimpse of their full arsenal post-heresy, unlike the other traitor legions. Without the leadership of Fulgrim, revealing their full arsenal and uniting under the banner, I wouldn't call them an "active" legion like the DG under Morty.

Angron didn't unite the Legion in any of his campaigns after the Heresy. Even on Armageddon Angron largely commanded Daemonic troops rather than Astartes because unlike Magnus or Mortarion, he doesn't really stick around with his Legion. They might follow his trail of slaughter but they are not by any means a united Legion. Mortarion doesn't command his whole Legion, there are portions (including that of his First Captain, Typhus) who work alongside their father when commanded by Nurgle but they do not fight for Mortartion. Magnus has a hold on his Legion but has portions that do not follow his command, especially the large contingent who follow Ahriman. He might have forgiven the sins to prosecute the Fenris campaign but he does not command his Legion with the surety that Abaddon does his.
The Emperor's Children do have a semi-formal command structure that controls at least a large portion of the Legion. As for Legion elements that existed during the Heresy, many of those elite formations are long gone. Former Phoenix Guard and Palantine Blades often become leaders of Warbands, and the martial honour of the IIIrd is gone. As for Fulgrim, he both is and is not kicking about. In the same way that Magnus, Mortarion and Angron have been given more prominent roles with their armies in 40k, Fulgrim would receive the same treatment.

I think Fulgrim, just so the Big Four all have a primarch.

I do think Logar could add some depth to chaos. He’s got some history with Guiliman, and I’d like to see him butt heads with Abadon for what chaos should be doing.

It will be fulgrim. GW wants to round up the four gods.

I’d claim that in the Horus heresy chaos is more interesting then loyalists story wise but in 40k it’s the reverse. Chaos in 40k is sadly not that interesting IMO and the same goes for the traitor primarchs. So honestly I’m kind of indifferent to it. I find them more appealing as a opposing measurement. Like for instance we know Kaldor Draigo is impressive because he beat down mortarion in single combat.

 Gert wrote:

Many in universe or many IRL? Because in-universe that isn't true. Abaddon has unrivaled support from those outside of his Legion, a Legion that also happens to be the largest Chaos Legion. Lorgar has just the Word Bearers. The large fleet belonging to the Black Legion also contains at least three Glorianna class vessels alongside many Space Hulks and the Planet Killer. The Word Bearers don't have their Glorianna and it's not clear what happened to the remaining Abyss class vessels. Abaddon is also an extremely good tactician both in ground and naval warfare. Lorgar is charismatic but his tactics were never particularly inspired nor was he ever a combat powerhouse. His Daemon aspect may lend him some power but Abaddon still wields the Talon and Drachnyen.
Abaddon is the Chosen of the Pantheon, Lorgar is not.

I meant in IRL not in fiction. I know that the BL is the largest and has welcomed troops to join from other legions as well. I don't wanna search up now, but I'm just gonna say from memory that Abaddon failed a lot, his fight against Sigismund should've been his death and not DBZ teleporting away (the Gods saved him). There are better traitors that suit the title Warmaster than Abaddon, such as Huron Blackheart, Warsmith Honsou, Decimus that are still alive. Two dead traitors that would fit the title Warmaster if they were alive are Argel Tal and Sevetar. All of these would be way better than Abaddon as Warmaster.

Abaddon may wield the Talon of Horus and Drach'nyen and has the favor of the Pantheon, but he is still not a Primarch. When Abaddon and his BL witnessed Gman they all trembled in fear before Gman, even though Gman is not the most powerful combatant of all the Primarchs he can still play tennis with an ordinary CSM.

I was never a fan of Lorgar, but the WB always had sick color scheme and their symbolism. I would have Lorgar change of character (rectonn) just for him to be Warmaster of Chaos, it suits him well, since he's the Primarch that searched for a God to worship, and he found Chaos, the Primordial Truth. Also Lorgar is fitting for 40K Liber Malefic equivalent of WHFB, in sense of describing the Realm of Chaos, that would be dope.

 Gert wrote:
Angron didn't unite the Legion in any of his campaigns after the Heresy. Even on Armageddon Angron largely commanded Daemonic troops rather than Astartes because unlike Magnus or Mortarion, he doesn't really stick around with his Legion. They might follow his trail of slaughter but they are not by any means a united Legion. Mortarion doesn't command his whole Legion, there are portions (including that of his First Captain, Typhus) who work alongside their father when commanded by Nurgle but they do not fight for Mortartion. Magnus has a hold on his Legion but has portions that do not follow his command, especially the large contingent who follow Ahriman. He might have forgiven the sins to prosecute the Fenris campaign but he does not command his Legion with the surety that Abaddon does his.
The Emperor's Children do have a semi-formal command structure that controls at least a large portion of the Legion. As for Legion elements that existed during the Heresy, many of those elite formations are long gone. Former Phoenix Guard and Palantine Blades often become leaders of Warbands, and the martial honour of the IIIrd is gone. As for Fulgrim, he both is and is not kicking about. In the same way that Magnus, Mortarion and Angron have been given more prominent roles with their armies in 40k, Fulgrim would receive the same treatment.

I didn't meant on Armageddon, I meant now, on his second return, it's possible. I very well know that the likes of Typhus and Ahriman do not follow their Primarchs. Typhus and his followers of DG never liked Morty and the other CSM, they are OG worshipers of Nurgle. And Ahriman as far as I know was banished by Magnus. The EC are the least we know about, except Lucius, that prick, but like I said, we never got a reveal of their full arsenal post-heresy except for the Noise Marines, while Phoenix Guard and Palatine Blade memebrs became warband leaders, they can still form again as elite traitor marines under Fulgrim. The traitors still have elite units (high ranking). I doubt they we can even call them Phoenix and Palatine Blades anymore, more like Sonic Guard and Pleasure Blades.

Out of all the 4 dedicated legions, the EC for me remained the most mysterious and the most interesting even though I never liked them post-heresy and Slaanesh.

 Nevelon wrote:
I think Fulgrim, just so the Big Four all have a primarch.

I do think Logar could add some depth to chaos. He’s got some history with Guiliman, and I’d like to see him butt heads with Abadon for what chaos should be doing.

Fulgrim and the EC are very interesting post-heresy, I'd like to see their full reveal and the devastation they will bring.

Lorgar can add a lot of stuff to Chaos if het gets a good write and a retconn.

It would be cool if Lorgar can return human, just like he was 10,000 years ago, but now bearing the markings of Chaos and in his hands the book he wrote about Chaos (I forgot what was it called). Him describing the Realm of Chaos like Liber Malefic would be so cool. Turning from human to daemon form and back at will would also be sick. This would be way cool than something Argel Tal achieved. Argel Tal bonded with a daemon, this was a huge plus, that made him go toe to toe with a Primarch, if Lorgar can make successful teachings on how to bond with a daemon, that would be epic. Because possessed CSM are insane.

 Nerak wrote:
It will be fulgrim. GW wants to round up the four gods.

I’d claim that in the Horus heresy chaos is more interesting then loyalists story wise but in 40k it’s the reverse. Chaos in 40k is sadly not that interesting IMO and the same goes for the traitor primarchs. So honestly I’m kind of indifferent to it. I find them more appealing as a opposing measurement. Like for instance we know Kaldor Draigo is impressive because he beat down mortarion in single combat.

There is a problem with Chaos as a whole on how it's written. The problem is and I will note it, things are taken too literal, just like imposing realism in games taking the fun out of it, I'm not against it, but too much and has taken fun out of games. The same problem is with Chaos in the 40K setting. The legions are too insane to function, with only the TS being normal.

The 30K traitors are more interesting because they weren't corrupted as much as they are 10,000 years later. I remember and I am fully aware that the traitors marines got rectonned not being more powerful than the loyalist.

1d4chan always explained it so well and simple

Naturally, they fight just like Space Marines except on average they are stronger, more experienced, and older, given that the majority stood with their Primarchs during the Great Crusade only worse because Mary Sues need punching bags. They keep using gak they were equipped with prior to the Horus Heresy such as bolters and the ever useful Space Marine plot armor, which would explain why they didn't fistfuck each other to death before reaching the Eye of Terror, or why they would follow the lead of a particular Saturday morning cartoon villain.

Omegon because I love the alpha legion

Fulgrim because I love the EC and they got to be next in line for a codex

Not sure there's anything to support the assertion that the BL is an unpopular Legion among Chaos players. At best you have the "Failbaddon the Armless" memes which weren't funny to begin with and have been dragged out beyond death at this point.
In this case your memory is wrong. Abaddon couldn't have become Warmaster and received the blessings of all four Chaos Gods if he was a failure. The Black Crusades each had specific goals for Abaddon, as well as the wider goal of causing wider chaos within the Imperium, with the one exception being the 10th where they invade Medusa for some reason. He also very much beat Sigismund during the 1st Black Crusade, although it pained him to fight one he considered a brother and didn't actually want Sigismund to die. Abaddon also nearly ate it in that fight but he still won. The only time he ran away was when his gambit at the Siege of Terra failed but then it was always designed to do so and Perturabo planned for it to be a distraction rather than a speartip killing stroke.

As for "better" traitors, Honsou failed to lead an invasion of Ultramar, Huron Blackheart is a recent Lord of Chaos and doesn't have the support base necessary to rival Abaddon, Decimus is a one-off character from ADB's Night Lords series, hasn't actually ever done anything of note and doesn't command any force near the size of Abaddon. As for the dead, they're dead.
Abaddon knows Guilliman is a threat but has never actually fought him. Not being a Primarch doesn't really matter when you have more troops, ships, and a far more loyal following. In fact, Abaddon not being a Primarch is the very reason so many of his troops follow him. He isn't marred by the failure of the Heresy and isn't blamed for leading the Legions into the Eye of Terror to scratch out a living fighting each other for what scraps can be found. Abaddon ended the Legion Wars and gave the Legions a chance to break from the failures of the past and chart a new path of vengeance.

And as for Lorgar, you're forgetting that one of the important parts of his character is that despite being the first to find Chaos and embrace it, he was never destined to rule. He was the cut that allowed the poison into the Traitor Legions and the true Champion of the Gods, Horus. When he tried to kill Horus and take over he had to force Fulgrim into submission using sorcery, then was betrayed by portions of his own Legion and Banished by Horus.


You started off by claiming the Emperor's Children wouldn't be a good choice because they aren't an active Legion and don't actually fight battles or campaigns like other Legions. I'm now genuinely confused at what point you are trying to make.

Abaddon ripped the galaxy and the Imperium in half, that's more than even Horus achieved so far. He also worked hard for that while others merely grumbled in the Eye for 10K years. Abaddon is the one figure that united Chaos for the Attack on Cadia, he's like Ghazgkull for the Orks. There's noone close, especially not half Daemons that can't even reign over their own body.

I'd like to see both Larger and Perturabo in Daemon Primarch form, even if it is just Forgeworld doing their bits so we can just see what they officially look like more than anything. Fulgrim will get his day at some point,

 endlesswaltz123 wrote:
I'd like to see both Larger and Perturabo in Daemon Primarch form, even if it is just Forgeworld doing their bits so we can just see what they officially look like more than anything. Fulgrim will get his day at some point,

God I would love a demon larger right now. Perhaps a Khornenbourg 1664

Perturabo would be interesting in that you really could justify him being different to the other guys. All daemon princes are melee beatsticks, but some way more than others.

With Perturabo I'd like to see a non-winged daemon prince. Something that looks like a giant, heavily mutated terminator. Something twice the sized of the plastic Obliterators. Before daemonhood Perturabo had a massive machinegun like thing mounted to his armor. I'd like to see it remain, but in a chaos mutated and enlarged way. Make him "The shooty Primarch".

 Gert wrote:

Not sure there's anything to support the assertion that the BL is an unpopular Legion among Chaos players. At best you have the "Failbaddon the Armless" memes which weren't funny to begin with and have been dragged out beyond death at this point.
In this case your memory is wrong. Abaddon couldn't have become Warmaster and received the blessings of all four Chaos Gods if he was a failure. The Black Crusades each had specific goals for Abaddon, as well as the wider goal of causing wider chaos within the Imperium, with the one exception being the 10th where they invade Medusa for some reason. He also very much beat Sigismund during the 1st Black Crusade, although it pained him to fight one he considered a brother and didn't actually want Sigismund to die. Abaddon also nearly ate it in that fight but he still won. The only time he ran away was when his gambit at the Siege of Terra failed but then it was always designed to do so and Perturabo planned for it to be a distraction rather than a speartip killing stroke.

As for "better" traitors, Honsou failed to lead an invasion of Ultramar, Huron Blackheart is a recent Lord of Chaos and doesn't have the support base necessary to rival Abaddon, Decimus is a one-off character from ADB's Night Lords series, hasn't actually ever done anything of note and doesn't command any force near the size of Abaddon. As for the dead, they're dead.
Abaddon knows Guilliman is a threat but has never actually fought him. Not being a Primarch doesn't really matter when you have more troops, ships, and a far more loyal following. In fact, Abaddon not being a Primarch is the very reason so many of his troops follow him. He isn't marred by the failure of the Heresy and isn't blamed for leading the Legions into the Eye of Terror to scratch out a living fighting each other for what scraps can be found. Abaddon ended the Legion Wars and gave the Legions a chance to break from the failures of the past and chart a new path of vengeance.

It has nothing to do with Failbaddon memes, as far as I know they came out from DoW2 because someone at Relic decided Abaddon to be without arms.

I like Abaddon and I don't like him, unlike Angron. Abaddon and the BL have the best color scheme out of the traitor legions, at least for me, his design is cool and him wielding the Talon of Horus and Drach'nyen is bad ass. He's done a lot of good things for the traitors, he united them, the traitor Primarchs submitted to Abaddon before the 13th BC, while they do shady stuff and have their own plans, Abaddon is still the head of the Forces of Chaos and favored by the Pantheon. He has led many BC's against the Imperium and destroying Cadia, throwing a Black Stone fortress.

But the problem is Abbadon is actually as strong as GW tries to make him out to be but Tzeentch finds the concept of him constantly getting his ass kicked hilarious so he alters reality to have him constantly lose. Abaddon failed to kill Loken, failed to kill Sigismund because his emotions got the better of him. Abaddon isn't a failure, he sets goals to further his plans, while Horus did more in 7 years than Abaddon could do in 10,000 years ago. Horus fought the Imperium at it's peak, while Abaddon fights a crumbling, decaying Imperium. He even got his story rectonned because he was so badly written. GW realized that making Abaddon fail 13 BC's made him look incompetent, they retconned his story so that each BC had a specific goal which would further his plans. 1st BC found Drach'nyen, 2nd BC he betrayed one of his allies and killed him for some reason and in another crusade he tried to capture 6 Black Stone fortresses but ended up with 2. He ended up his ass getting kicked during the 7th BC by Thalastian Jorus and his BA death company. Abaddon and the BL outnumbered the BA death company a 1000 to 1 and still got their asses kicked. Abaddon fought Eldrad in a melee fight, I mean he fought an old magician, not a swordsman, not a Phoenix lord, when Eldrad Leroy Jenkins Abaddon with a spear, you think that Abaddon would just slice Eldrad into half, but no, he gets his throat pierced by Eldrad and he gets teleported by the Pantheon away. Legend has it that Abaddon lost a melee fight against a Tau, and he was Water Caste.

Abaddon wanted to be Darth Vader, Sauron but instead he became Starscream.

You can argue that Abaddon getting his ass kicked regularly is deliberate, as it shows him to be a mortal man and a relatable character he isn't a god like Primarch and he isn't invincible, but the standards of opponents that slap him is pretty low. It should take a squadron of named SM's to fight him back or maybe someone like Gman, a low tier Primarch when it comes to combat to match him but with the lore we've gotten the big Gman would end Abby in one punch. Abaddon can't be both a demi god Warmaster of Chaos their greatest warrior ever and also being useless at the same time. It's jarring to be told how great a character is only to see them get clapped time and time again.

 Gert wrote:
And as for Lorgar, you're forgetting that one of the important parts of his character is that despite being the first to find Chaos and embrace it, he was never destined to rule. He was the cut that allowed the poison into the Traitor Legions and the true Champion of the Gods, Horus. When he tried to kill Horus and take over he had to force Fulgrim into submission using sorcery, then was betrayed by portions of his own Legion and Banished by Horus.

OK you're right about that.

 Gert wrote:
You started off by claiming the Emperor's Children wouldn't be a good choice because they aren't an active Legion and don't actually fight battles or campaigns like other Legions. I'm now genuinely confused at what point you are trying to make.

No I just said they aren't an active legions and they remained "mysterious" because GW forgot about them. Because their Primarch jerks off in the Palace of Slaanesh, only a small number of warbands are active, Lucius and Noise Marines and that's it. I wouldn't mind if the EC's and Fulgrim are next, they're still more interesting than one dimensional raging daemons.

 F.E.A.R. wrote:
It has nothing to do with Failbaddon memes, as far as I know they came out from DoW2 because someone at Relic decided Abaddon to be without arms.

The thing is you've just decided that Abaddon and the BL aren't popular. There's no actual evidence to suggest that outside of an exceptionally bad meme.


Abaddon failing to kill Loken has nothing to do with Tzeentch, he wasn't even a devotee of Chaos at that point, and Abaddon did kill Sigismund during the 1st Black Crusade.
Speaking of the Black Crusades, how do you define "failure"? Because GW didn't actually retcon much of anything to do with the 13 Black Crusades, rather they were expanded upon to have more detail. Let's actually break them down because you don't actually seem to know what you're on about.

So even before the 13th BC had its ending changed from the global campaign result, most of the Crusades were still very much victories.

You can argue that Abaddon getting his ass kicked regularly is deliberate, as it shows him to be a mortal man and a relatable character he isn't a god like Primarch and he isn't invincible, but the standards of opponents that slap him is pretty low. It should take a squadron of named SM's to fight him back or maybe someone like Gman, a low tier Primarch when it comes to combat to match him but with the lore we've gotten the big Gman would end Abby in one punch. Abaddon can't be both a demi god Warmaster of Chaos their greatest warrior ever and also being useless at the same time. It's jarring to be told how great a character is only to see them get clapped time and time again.

Cool but he doesn't get slapped about all the time. He wins, consistently. What you have is the condensed meme version of Abaddon.

I suggest you actually read some of the background instead of just making assumptions.

Well, we’ve seen three of the Big Four. Therefore, Fulgrim at the least.

The other, erm…..is it five? Given they’ve largely sat out the past 10,000 years? There’ll need to be good narrative reason for them to actually stick around on the galactic stage.

 Gert wrote:

 F.E.A.R. wrote:
It has nothing to do with Failbaddon memes, as far as I know they came out from DoW2 because someone at Relic decided Abaddon to be without arms.

The thing is you've just decided that Abaddon and the BL aren't popular. There's no actual evidence to suggest that outside of an exceptionally bad meme.

Spoiler:

But the problem is Abbadon is actually as strong as GW tries to make him out to be but Tzeentch finds the concept of him constantly getting his ass kicked hilarious so he alters reality to have him constantly lose. Abaddon failed to kill Loken, failed to kill Sigismund because his emotions got the better of him. Abaddon isn't a failure, he sets goals to further his plans, while Horus did more in 7 years than Abaddon could do in 10,000 years ago. Horus fought the Imperium at it's peak, while Abaddon fights a crumbling, decaying Imperium. He even got his story rectonned because he was so badly written. GW realized that making Abaddon fail 13 BC's made him look incompetent, they retconned his story so that each BC had a specific goal which would further his plans. 1st BC found Drach'nyen, 2nd BC he betrayed one of his allies and killed him for some reason and in another crusade he tried to capture 6 Black Stone fortresses but ended up with 2. He ended up his ass getting kicked during the 7th BC by Thalastian Jorus and his BA death company. Abaddon and the BL outnumbered the BA death company a 1000 to 1 and still got their asses kicked. Abaddon fought Eldrad in a melee fight, I mean he fought an old magician, not a swordsman, not a Phoenix lord, when Eldrad Leroy Jenkins Abaddon with a spear, you think that Abaddon would just slice Eldrad into half, but no, he gets his throat pierced by Eldrad and he gets teleported by the Pantheon away. Legend has it that Abaddon lost a melee fight against a Tau, and he was Water Caste.

Abaddon failing to kill Loken has nothing to do with Tzeentch, he wasn't even a devotee of Chaos at that point, and Abaddon did kill Sigismund during the 1st Black Crusade.
Speaking of the Black Crusades, how do you define "failure"? Because GW didn't actually retcon much of anything to do with the 13 Black Crusades, rather they were expanded upon to have more detail. Let's actually break them down because you don't actually seem to know what you're on about.

Spoiler:

1st - Secures Drach'nyen, kills Sigismund, kills his main rival for the title of Warmaster, and drags his Legion out of the gutter.
2nd - Abaddon places a curse on the Belis Corona shipyards that unleashes a mutagenic plague that cripples Imperial Navy squadrons around the Eye. He also frees Daemons bound by the Inquisition into his service.
3rd - Prevented the fulfillment of a prophecy where an Imperial Saint would rise to defeat him by destroying the Saint's remains.
4th - Abaddon destroys the fortress of Kromarch and the forces of Chaos run rampant in the Cadian sector. He shatters the gates of the Citadel with one blow from Drach'nyen.
5th - Abaddon wipes out two Space Marine Chapters and secures the allegiance of one of the most powerful Daemon Princes, Doombreed. The damage caused by his forces also weakens the veil between reality and the Warp in the Elysia sector, causing rampant psychic mutation.
6th - Abaddon kills a rival and takes his troops for the Black Legion. He also destroys a Forge World. The Warmaster cannot suffer rivals to his claim as the heir to Horus, which Drecarth was.
7th - Almost wipes out the Blood Angels and uses the gene-seed to secure an alliance with Fabius Bile, who in turn can create more Astartes for the Black Legion. Not sure how this isn't a win.
8th - The Black Legion enacts a complex and confusing scheme to gain the favour of Tzeentch, massacring entire cities while leaving others untouched. The scheme covers Abaddons plans to destroy pylons hidden across Segmentum Obscurus.
9th - Abaddon massacres the population of Antecanis, leading to the vital Cancephalus shipyards losing their workforce. Without the yards to repair and rearm them, the sector's Naval squadrons are ravaged by Abaddon's forces and Antecanis is reduced to ashes. Another two Space Marine Chapters are destroyed and the Lamenters come close to exctinction.
10th - Dumb. All of it. Dumb. Not at all redeemable and I won't even attempt to defend this one.
11th - Abaddon gets lost in space, finds a planet teeming with Orks, and decides to do some Mad Science. He uses the Ork's strange psychic abilities to create a new weapon capable of tearing open the fabric of reality.
12th - Abaddon gets two Blackstone Fortresses, kills billions of Imperial citizens and soldiers, blows up the remaining Fortresses to prevent their use by the Imperium.
13th - Splits the galaxy in two.

So even before the 13th BC had its ending changed from the global campaign result, most of the Crusades were still very much victories.

You can argue that Abaddon getting his ass kicked regularly is deliberate, as it shows him to be a mortal man and a relatable character he isn't a god like Primarch and he isn't invincible, but the standards of opponents that slap him is pretty low. It should take a squadron of named SM's to fight him back or maybe someone like Gman, a low tier Primarch when it comes to combat to match him but with the lore we've gotten the big Gman would end Abby in one punch. Abaddon can't be both a demi god Warmaster of Chaos their greatest warrior ever and also being useless at the same time. It's jarring to be told how great a character is only to see them get clapped time and time again.

Cool but he doesn't get slapped about all the time. He wins, consistently. What you have is the condensed meme version of Abaddon.

I suggest you actually read some of the background instead of just making assumptions.

Another thing to note is that wrt the Eldrad thing:
1) that was based on a WD battle report and Eldrad just happened to roll really well (passing all his 3++ re-rollables vs Drachnyn and wounding with his staff) and Abaddon rolled badly (fluffing his talon attacks and failing too many 4++ saves vs Eldrad’s staff). They had to make up the ‘oh but the Chaos Gods teleported him away’ because they didn’t expect Eldrad to win.
2) it was from the EoT timeline which has been retconned away.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Well, we’ve seen three of the Big Four. Therefore, Fulgrim at the least.

The other, erm…..is it five? Given they’ve largely sat out the past 10,000 years? There’ll need to be good narrative reason for them to actually stick around on the galactic stage.

Two to three I think?

Horus is dead, Konrad is dead, at least one of the twins is dead. Leaves Perty, Lorgar and maybe the other twin. Only the first two are daemons.

Fulgrim is the most likely let’s be honest, as EC will probably get a book at some point.

But I think Perturabo would be the most interesting as he’s the most likely to have a unique spin on it.

Abaddon was certainly given a huge glow-up in the fluff in relatively recent years and to deny otherwise is delusional even if nothing technically was retconned. ADB in particular has overcompensated and is trying to make him a boring invincible villain sue ala Archaon from Warhammer Fantasy and in particular AoS, though thankfully not every writer is as poor as ADB.

Not sure what 'return' means in this context since fluff-wise they've always been around and model-wise they're only getting models recently.

But yeah, Fugrim. I always liked his funky Epic snakeman model and would love to see an update.

Assuming GW can restrain themselves and not go all Urotsukidoji with him.

Lord Zarkov wrote:


Two to three I think?

Horus is dead, Konrad is dead, at least one of the twins is dead. Leaves Perty, Lorgar and maybe the other twin. Only the first two are daemons.

Fulgrim is the most likely let’s be honest, as EC will probably get a book at some point.

But I think Perturabo would be the most interesting as he’s the most likely to have a unique spin on it.

I forgot that one of the twins isn't a daemon prince. That actually opens up A LOT of possibilities. With how sneaky he is, I could see him being a "discount" Primarch (300ish points) That will allow up to D3 units in your army to redeploy after everything is on the board and also have himself redeploy in the same style as Sly Marbo. He wouldn't be the biggest beatstick in the game, but the pure unpredictability of him is what you fear. A sub- GMan statline that can bounce around the battlefield is something an enemy has to plan for. Unsupported units all become easy prey for a Primarch that strikes from the shadows.

Lord Zarkov wrote:


Horus is dead, Konrad is dead, at least one of the twins is dead. Leaves Perty, Lorgar and maybe the other twin. Only the first two are daemons.

Fulgrim is the most likely let’s be honest, as EC will probably get a book at some point.

But I think Perturabo would be the most interesting as he’s the most likely to have a unique spin on it.

I think the most logical way to go forward is of course Fulgrim + his gang next to have a demon Primarch for each god, and then Lorgar because Chaos Undivided needs a centerpiece as well. Belakor could fit that function, but they are increasingly trying to make him a distinct subfaction in concurrence with generic-brand undivided, so there's that. Perturabo is interesting model-wise and story-wise, but also much harder to integrate than ''hurr durr for the glory of chaos!'' preacherboy big L. Depending on where they go with that Vashtor demigod dude, the Dark Mechanicus and the Forge of Souls, Perti may find a place as one halft of a schismatic divide in the DarkMech, have the demon faction around the Soulforge be one side and the mortal-oriented side be the other, with Vashtor and Perti as figureheads...

All in all, i think they'll have all the existing, confirmed not-dead or dubiously dead Primarchs return eventually, they are just to popular, and thus profitable, to keep them missing forever. On the imperial side the next ones will probably be the Lion, the Wolf and probably Dorn, as they all somehow integrate into existing and well-supported model lines, with the Khan, Corax and possibly Vulkan coming much, much later. At their current release pace of one Primarch every couple years, all that will unfold over decades and multiple editions anyway.

I agree that Chaos undivided could use a Big Guy, but I'd say ascending Abaddon to Daemonhood would make more sense than brining in Lorgar.

He's much more established and a change for Abby would be a lot more interesting than trying to turn a supporting player into a major character.

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
I agree that Chaos undivided could use a Big Guy, but I'd say ascending Abaddon to Daemonhood would make more sense than brining in Lorgar.

He's much more established and a change for Abby would be a lot more interesting than trying to turn a supporting player into a major character.

Iirc resisting demonhood is one of Abaddons core beliefs: in his opinion Horus made a big mistake when he accepted the boon from all four powers, because in the end it made him just another pawn for the big game. Of course that would be an interesting step nonetheless, a reluctant demon prince is something we don't really have at the moment.

Also worth noting that Abaddon himself isn’t particularly into worship. The gods are tools, a means to an end, rather than his masters.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
I agree that Chaos undivided could use a Big Guy, but I'd say ascending Abaddon to Daemonhood would make more sense than brining in Lorgar.

He's much more established and a change for Abby would be a lot more interesting than trying to turn a supporting player into a major character.

That’s….that’s Be’lakor? That’s his role. The Demi-God Daemon Prince the Gods cannot control.

Tsagualsa wrote:

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
I agree that Chaos undivided could use a Big Guy, but I'd say ascending Abaddon to Daemonhood would make more sense than brining in Lorgar.

He's much more established and a change for Abby would be a lot more interesting than trying to turn a supporting player into a major character.

Iirc resisting demonhood is one of Abaddons core beliefs: in his opinion Horus made a big mistake when he accepted the boon from all four powers, because in the end it made him just another pawn for the big game. Of course that would be an interesting step nonetheless, a reluctant demon prince is something we don't really have at the moment.

Exactly!

A friend of mine was talking about doing a Daemon Prince Abby with 1/4 of him mutated by each god and him just floating in the air screaming as his body is twisted 4 different ways. I don't know if he ever did it but it sound awesome.

And would make for a neat tragic fate for old Topknot.

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:

Tsagualsa wrote:

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
I agree that Chaos undivided could use a Big Guy, but I'd say ascending Abaddon to Daemonhood would make more sense than brining in Lorgar.

He's much more established and a change for Abby would be a lot more interesting than trying to turn a supporting player into a major character.

Iirc resisting demonhood is one of Abaddons core beliefs: in his opinion Horus made a big mistake when he accepted the boon from all four powers, because in the end it made him just another pawn for the big game. Of course that would be an interesting step nonetheless, a reluctant demon prince is something we don't really have at the moment.

Exactly!

A friend of mine was talking about doing a Daemon Prince Abby with 1/4 of him mutated by each god and him just floating in the air screaming as his body is twisted 4 different ways. I don't know if he ever did it but it sound awesome.

And would make for a neat tragic fate for old Topknot.

The current turn in the story suggests that they go another road with Abby: he seems to seek more power by making pacts with minor and unaligned demons and elements, which in my opinion is a good way to expand on the nature of chaos without endlessly rehashing the central clichées of the big 4, and offers a lot of room for the old warlock/sorcerer tropes of infernal pacts, cheating on the devil and so on. The more independent actors and factions are inherently more interesting and have more freedom to move the narrative in unexpected directions, and i'm all here for it

Fulgrim is obviously up next, as they'll want to finish separating out the god locked Legions. But after him I'd like to see Perturabo return. He did some serious heavy lifting for the Traitor Legions during the Heresy. I'd like to see what he could get done in the current timeline.

I think longer would be the next best choice after fulgrim.

The word bearers are chaos undivided, it’s almost a shame that they didn’t become the “big” chaos legion for 40K instead of black legion. However their relentless religion would be a useful tool in taking control of the dark imperium and an interesting way of showing the hypocrisy of the imperium.

Also they started all this it’s about time they got involved.