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 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Probably not the best to check JNAPRODUCTIONS on numbers.

They got 20/126 from JNA's own thread so yeah, not half.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Probably not the best to check JNAPRODUCTIONS on numbers.

Heh. I appreciate the vote of confidence, but while my math skills are on point, that doesn't do jack diddly if I don't have the actual numbers to work with.

And that's the link, DrBored! Thank you.

Edit: For those curious, new thread about releases.

I appreciate the work gone into this and it really does show that they're not the release chur ing beas they used to be. I feel there's a couple missing maybe? Are the SW/DA/BA lieutenants/mephiston from this edition? Either way, they're nowhere near half the releases even.

Breton wrote:
Didn't I JUST point out the Deathwing Terminators look like the same ones from the Dark Vengeance Starter set from what 4 editions ago?

They're not the Dark Vengeance Terminators - they're the ones from this kit, but showing the heavy flamer build rather than the plasma cannon build.

Dark Vengeance terminator squad had an assault cannon, no CC guys, and one chainfist dude.

 JNAProductions wrote:

No other faction does. That's the difference.

No the faction getting a major refresh or roll out does. Sisters had a pretty hefty role in the model release schedule when they were reintroduced. But they were not Marines so the bias didn't kick in. Necrons and CWE also had some significant roll outs recently. How many of these new "Loyalist Marines" are firstborn? Even the "new" rumors about Space Marines put a demarcation line between Firstborn and Primaris on the theory that Primaris were supposed to completely replace Firstborn. The latest one is that they'll be split into their own codices. I don't buy that one, but I do believe the Primaris was done to get long time Marine players into buying models again. So how many kits did Loyalist Marines get that weren't Primaris?

Breton wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

No other faction does. That's the difference.

No the faction getting a major refresh or roll out does. Sisters had a pretty hefty role in the model release schedule when they were reintroduced. But they were not Marines so the bias didn't kick in. Necrons and CWE also had some significant roll outs recently. How many of these new "Loyalist Marines" are firstborn? Even the "new" rumors about Space Marines put a demarcation line between Firstborn and Primaris on the theory that Primaris were supposed to completely replace Firstborn. The latest one is that they'll be split into their own codices. I don't buy that one, but I do believe the Primaris was done to get long time Marine players into buying models again. So how many kits did Loyalist Marines get that weren't Primaris?

Votann is basically an entirely new army in 9th Edition. Last time they had a release (excepting Grombbrindal, for some White Dwarf milestones) was in the 90s. And they got... Less kits than Marines did in 9th.

The ONLY faction to get more releases than Marines was Necrons... And that's only if you ignore releases that are still locked to a box set AND subfaction releases. Including either, and Marines got more. Including both, and Marines got twice as many or more releases as any other faction, expect Necrons.

 JNAProductions wrote:

Breton wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

No other faction does. That's the difference.

No the faction getting a major refresh or roll out does. Sisters had a pretty hefty role in the model release schedule when they were reintroduced. But they were not Marines so the bias didn't kick in. Necrons and CWE also had some significant roll outs recently. How many of these new "Loyalist Marines" are firstborn? Even the "new" rumors about Space Marines put a demarcation line between Firstborn and Primaris on the theory that Primaris were supposed to completely replace Firstborn. The latest one is that they'll be split into their own codices. I don't buy that one, but I do believe the Primaris was done to get long time Marine players into buying models again. So how many kits did Loyalist Marines get that weren't Primaris?

Votann is basically an entirely new army in 9th Edition. Last time they had a release (excepting Grombbrindal, for some White Dwarf milestones) was in the 90s. And they got... Less kits than Marines did in 9th.

The ONLY faction to get more releases than Marines was Necrons... And that's only if you ignore releases that are still locked to a box set AND subfaction releases. Including either, and Marines got more. Including both, and Marines got twice as many or more releases as any other faction, expect Necrons.

Votann is in their first wave probably about due for their second. Sisters is on their what - fourth, fifth? IG is also on their first. Necrons started at about the same time as Primaris and had more releases? There were still no Firstborn releases. My point keeps getting made.

Breton wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

Breton wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

No other faction does. That's the difference.

No the faction getting a major refresh or roll out does. Sisters had a pretty hefty role in the model release schedule when they were reintroduced. But they were not Marines so the bias didn't kick in. Necrons and CWE also had some significant roll outs recently. How many of these new "Loyalist Marines" are firstborn? Even the "new" rumors about Space Marines put a demarcation line between Firstborn and Primaris on the theory that Primaris were supposed to completely replace Firstborn. The latest one is that they'll be split into their own codices. I don't buy that one, but I do believe the Primaris was done to get long time Marine players into buying models again. So how many kits did Loyalist Marines get that weren't Primaris?

Votann is basically an entirely new army in 9th Edition. Last time they had a release (excepting Grombbrindal, for some White Dwarf milestones) was in the 90s. And they got... Less kits than Marines did in 9th.

The ONLY faction to get more releases than Marines was Necrons... And that's only if you ignore releases that are still locked to a box set AND subfaction releases. Including either, and Marines got more. Including both, and Marines got twice as many or more releases as any other faction, expect Necrons.

Votann is in their first wave probably about due for their second. Sisters is on their what - fourth, fifth? IG is also on their first. Necrons started at about the same time as Primaris and had more releases? There were still no Firstborn releases. My point keeps getting made.

Firstborn Marines have, without touching any supplements, unique characters, or Legends...
Nine (ten with Forgeworld) HQs.
One Troop.
Four (six) Dedicated Transports.
Seventeen (twenty) Elites.
Ten (thirteen) Fast Attacks.
Three (six) Flyers.
Twelve (twenty three) Heavy Supports.
Zero (eight) Lords of War.
Zero (one) Fortifications.
56 (plus 31 from Forgeworld) Total

My faction has, under the same conditions...
Five HQs.
Two Troops.
One Elite.
One Fast Attack.
One Heavy Support.
Zero Lords of War.
One Fortification.
11 Total

You see the slight discrepancy?

 JNAProductions wrote:

Breton wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

Breton wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

No other faction does. That's the difference.

No the faction getting a major refresh or roll out does. Sisters had a pretty hefty role in the model release schedule when they were reintroduced. But they were not Marines so the bias didn't kick in. Necrons and CWE also had some significant roll outs recently. How many of these new "Loyalist Marines" are firstborn? Even the "new" rumors about Space Marines put a demarcation line between Firstborn and Primaris on the theory that Primaris were supposed to completely replace Firstborn. The latest one is that they'll be split into their own codices. I don't buy that one, but I do believe the Primaris was done to get long time Marine players into buying models again. So how many kits did Loyalist Marines get that weren't Primaris?

Votann is basically an entirely new army in 9th Edition. Last time they had a release (excepting Grombbrindal, for some White Dwarf milestones) was in the 90s. And they got... Less kits than Marines did in 9th.

The ONLY faction to get more releases than Marines was Necrons... And that's only if you ignore releases that are still locked to a box set AND subfaction releases. Including either, and Marines got more. Including both, and Marines got twice as many or more releases as any other faction, expect Necrons.

Votann is in their first wave probably about due for their second. Sisters is on their what - fourth, fifth? IG is also on their first. Necrons started at about the same time as Primaris and had more releases? There were still no Firstborn releases. My point keeps getting made.

Firstborn Marines have, without touching any supplements, unique characters, or Legends...
Nine (ten with Forgeworld) HQs.
One Troop.
Four (six) Dedicated Transports.
Seventeen (twenty) Elites.
Ten (thirteen) Fast Attacks.
Three (six) Flyers.
Twelve (twenty three) Heavy Supports.
Zero (eight) Lords of War.
Zero (one) Fortifications.
56 (plus 31 from Forgeworld) Total

My faction has, under the same conditions...
Five HQs.
Two Troops.
One Elite.
One Fast Attack.
One Heavy Support.
Zero Lords of War.
One Fortification.
11 Total

You see the slight discrepancy?

Firstborn had nine HQ releases during 9th? They don't seem to show up on your list. Could you show me where they are? Or did we just move the goalposts again? From SM get more than all the other factions to More doesn't matter, but SM get a lot but not really, to not about releases at all, just data sheet counts? Which faction is it that has one Elites choice and no presence on Forgeworld? I'm looking on the GW Website, and using the filters I can't find a faction with only 1 Elites,1 Fast Attack, and 1 Heavy Support. Which faction exactly are we talking about?

That's the totals-not in 9th, just in the Codex.
If you don't understand why a faction that's not far off from 100 datasheets using a limited subset of it gets some flakk for still seeing releases, when compared to other factions that have far less... I don't think I can make you understand.

 JNAProductions wrote:
That's the totals-not in 9th, just in the Codex.
If you don't understand why a faction that's not far off from 100 datasheets using a limited subset of it gets some flakk for still seeing releases, when compared to other factions that have far less... I don't think I can make you understand.

The totals of what? Datasheets? Releases? From when to when? You haven't even made clear where you've moved the goalposts TO here. You haven't even mentioned which faction you're talking about. But I'll also concede you did bring up what is potentially and technically a potential first born release in the Bunker.

I mean I started this thread with an evaluation of the releases, the advertising for the releases, and what history suggests these releases mean.

It then evolved into some jokes about the supersizing of the Primarchs not branching out to the Primarchs relics.

Some folks who hate Marines enough to trasfer that hate to Marine players sailed right past the point that this release was mostly wasted in order to vent a little envy/hate.

You've gone from Marines get about as many releases as everybody else combined, to a fact check changing to Marines still get too many and if I change the rules even further in my favor they still get more than Necrons who started their refresh at the same time Space Marines did their Running Swap Out to I don't know what. Some sort of Data Sheet totals count that doesn't match the website.

 JNAProductions wrote:
That's the totals-not in 9th, just in the Codex.
If you don't understand why a faction that's not far off from 100 datasheets using a limited subset of it gets some flakk for still seeing releases, when compared to other factions that have far less... I don't think I can make you understand.

Unfortunately I don't think its going to change.

Pretty sure from when this was discussed near the end of 8th edition, if you take the long view (back to at least say 5th edition, possibly 4th or 3rd) GW tend to see the factions as Space Marines, "Other Imperial", Chaos and Xenos, and they average towards 25% of releases in each bucket (with some variance if you look at more closely).

So there will probably (rumours, logic etc) be a big Tyranid release in 10th. Probably 10-20 kits. But this has to be sort of in the context of getting 1 model in 9th, and nothing at all in 8th (unless there was something I'm forgetting.)

Marines will however almost inevitably get their own 20 new kits, just as they did in 9th, and 8th, and... etc.

@Breton- you do realize that first born are Space Marines just like Primaris are Space Marines. They co-exist in the same Codex. Just because your pet subfaction didn't get anything new doesn't mean your faction as a whole didn't get something new.

Just to be crystal clear First Born Marines = Space Marines.

Tyel wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
That's the totals-not in 9th, just in the Codex.
If you don't understand why a faction that's not far off from 100 datasheets using a limited subset of it gets some flakk for still seeing releases, when compared to other factions that have far less... I don't think I can make you understand.

Unfortunately I don't think its going to change.

Pretty sure from when this was discussed near the end of 8th edition, if you take the long view (back to at least say 5th edition, possibly 4th or 3rd) GW tend to see the factions as Space Marines, "Other Imperial", Chaos and Xenos, and they average towards 25% of releases in each bucket (with some variance if you look at more closely).

So there will probably (rumours, logic etc) be a big Tyranid release in 10th. Probably 10-20 kits. But this has to be sort of in the context of getting 1 model in 9th, and nothing at all in 8th (unless there was something I'm forgetting.)

Marines will however almost inevitably get their own 20 new kits, just as they did in 9th, and 8th, and... etc.

I'm less sure. If they do keep firstborn around and do split them, maybe they get a refresh for old kits. There are still some Primaris kits we need but I suspect less than 20. Of course, given their history I also fully expect a left-hand dominant Lieutenant kit.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
@Breton- you do realize that first born are Space Marines just like Primaris are Space Marines. They co-exist in the same Codex. Just because your pet subfaction didn't get anything new doesn't mean your faction as a whole didn't get something new.

Just to be crystal clear First Born Marines = Space Marines.

First, my subfaction did. As UM, most of them end up in my subfaction.

Second, there's a rumor they're going to be split. I don't buy it, and I'm not sure how that would work because Primaris <CHAPTER> and firstborn <CHAPTER> share a keyword which would allow soup even if they do get split into seperate codices. At least not without more artificial and transparent intrusions.

Third, what does that have to do with the theory that the release schedule was about moving from First Born to Primaris without cancelling the First Born line until the replacement line was up and running - especially given similar release tempo for other factions in similar stages of refresh.

Chaos as a faction split into CSM, Daemons, Death Guard, Thousand Sons, and now World Eaters. Firstborn can split off from junky-transport-marines.

Space marines get way to many kits it getting embarrassing. Look at those rediculas new missile trooper coming soon. Probably the worst model kit I have ever seen.

 Insectum7 wrote:
Chaos as a faction split into CSM, Daemons, Death Guard, Thousand Sons, and now World Eaters. Firstborn can split off from junky-transport-marines.

They can, but it won't be smooth, and it won't be immersive.

Nor are Firstborn to Primaris as Chaos Marines are to Death Guard et al. That's the DA, BA, SW.

Why are they still making reinforcement First Born when they could be making Primaris?

Will the currently mixed Chapters split? Which version of UM gets to keep Macragge? Which gets to keep the Ultramarines name? Which gets to keep Guilliman? How will the <CHAPTER> keyword first born Ultramarines and the <CHAPTER> keyword Primaris Ultramarines not be the same <CHAPTER> Keyword thus preventing "souping" first born and Primaris? Not that people do a whole lot of that anyway. What happens if Cassius doesn't cross the Rubicon? Will Marneus cross back to stay with his old friend and mentor? What if Cassius does cross and then goes back to Deathwatch full time (Which I expect) And before they DO do that, they've got to finish the Primaris Line with at least one choice of each iconic unit type. We still don't have Primaris Assault Marines. One of the things I didn't like about these two kits is that they still didn't do that while giving us another Lieutenant. The Thematic HQ's are also sorely missing. You can make a pretty easy corollary from Terminator to Gravis with both the rules and the models. But there's no Gravis Lieutenant. There's no Terminator Lieutenant either, but that's a different issue. There's no Jump Pack Captain, Stealthing Lieutenant, Gravis Libby or Chap, Gravis don't teleport, there's no Primaris Aircraft, and on and on.

That other issue I'm talking about is how things didn't happen for First Born. They didn't get a generic Terminator LT as I mentioned - DA got a chapter specific one. They didn't get their bike characters refreshed, in fact many went to Legends. You think Marine haters are whining now, wait until they have to do a release schedule to finish the basic needs of Primaris, AND reload the First Born for all the stuff that was skipped or dropped during the nudge towards Primaris.

The lack of new Oblits/separate Venomcrawler is very stupid.

I'll see if I can nab Vashtorr via a bits site as I'm not buying that box.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
The lack of new Oblits/separate Venomcrawler is very stupid.

I'll see if I can nab Vashtorr via a bits site as I'm not buying that box.

That whole box is pretty stupid. Its dumb enough putting one named in a Value Box. They put two.

Yeah, the box I'm sure will sell plenty well for people that haven't started those two armies, but for anyone that has already, it's frustrating to see.

Oh well, easy enough to wait.

Those Desolator guns are probably the worst thing I’ve ever seen.

They legitimately look like ork weapons; just two nebulous heavy weapons bolted together and pointed in the general direction of the enemy.