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 Gert wrote:

 ProfSrlojohn wrote:
Ah, but that's in 9th. I guarantee you that in 10th they will lock them to these loadouts like they have so much else. Just look at the how specific the Veteran Krieger's 40k loadout is. Part of why acolytes had their options for so long is that they *didn't* have a model.

I really do like these models, but if they're the catalyst for breaking down the customization of the Inquisiton list it'll gut what I liked about them.

It is entirely likely that the older profile will be removed in favour of one designed with this kit in mind yes. But at the same time, it seems that Agents are getting data cards if not a full Codex so the chances are running an "Inquisition" army means taking things like Arbites or Breachers, which sort of makes up for it in terms of weapon and unit variety.

I mean, I guess, but it will never sit right with me. None of those forces fight with the Inquisition on a regular basis. Strictly speaking the Assassins aren't even supposed to be able to be under an Inquisitor's command! (obviously, backroom politics abound) It's like if they added the PDF to sisters and then the PDF replaced them in their own army list. There's no storm troopers, as far as we know, no special rules for integrating them into the Chamber Militants, (all we've seen is the generic agents system, link in spoiler below) all we know is that they're getting index rules, not a codex. They could even release a mini-dex similar to something like 7th-8th Harlies, and you could slot it into Chambers militant and each Chamber. There are so many ways to do it, but they instead try to use them as a justification for welding a bunch of one-off imperial units with very little in common.

 ProfSrlojohn wrote:


I mean, I guess, but it will never sit right with me.

This right here is your main point, and I can get behind it. My thoughts on the Acolyte unit that we have now have always been- Make them troops, increase maximum unit size to ten, and split the character option you get by taking only one out of the profile and create a character Acolyte profile. Even with all the new stuff we have, I don't want to see the Acolyte unit go anyway.

 ProfSrlojohn wrote:

None of those forces fight with the Inquisition on a regular basis. Strictly speaking the Assassins aren't even supposed to be able to be under an Inquisitor's command!

And this is what I don't like about Black Library. If you can find me a quote about Assassins not being under the command of an Inquisitor from a game source book, please share the source, because many consider the Hunter days to be the golden age of the Inquisition, and guess who appears in those dexes?

The Witch Hunter dex also explicitly references Arbites. And the WD Article that served as the first SoS dex referenced the Inquisition, as does the current Custodes dex.

So if Black Library says the Inquisition doesn't work with those forces, then BL is wrong... Just like they're wrong about a marine soloing a thousand guardsmen and so many of the other bolter-porn bs they're famous for.

 ProfSrlojohn wrote:

There's no storm troopers, as far as we know

Both Scions and Kasrkin are Storm Trooper wannabes, and both have been suggested many times as Storm Trooper substitutes. I know they aren't identical though, so I guess your point still stands.

 ProfSrlojohn wrote:

no special rules for integrating them into the Chamber Militants, (all we've seen is the generic agents system, link in spoiler below) all we know is that they're getting index rules, not a codex. They could even release a mini-dex similar to something like 7th-8th Harlies, and you could slot it into Chambers militant and each Chamber. There are so many ways to do it, but they instead try to use them as a justification for welding a bunch of one-off imperial units with very little in common.

Well here's the thing: Because an Inquisitor can be dropped into any Imperial army, adding one to their appropriate Chamber does create an army where an Inquisitor is leading their Chamber. Now obviously having Chamber detachments in a 10th dex would be cooler than this oversimplified band-aid solution.

And as for the "we don't know that Agents are getting a dex," I suppose technically that's true. But if we don't, will be the only faction focus article that doesn't. Add to that the transition to Imperial Agents as a faction that just happened a few months ago, the KT box, the Inquisition campaign that the box represents... I think it's a very, very safe bet.

New rules for cultists in the box:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2023/05/11/mutate-lowly-cultists-into-terrifying-monsters-in-kill-team-ashes-of-faith/

PenitentJake wrote:

 ProfSrlojohn wrote:

None of those forces fight with the Inquisition on a regular basis. Strictly speaking the Assassins aren't even supposed to be able to be under an Inquisitor's command!

And this is what I don't like about Black Library. If you can find me a quote about Assassins not being under the command of an Inquisitor from a game source book, please share the source, because many consider the Hunter days to be the golden age of the Inquisition, and guess who appears in those dexes?
The Witch Hunter dex also explicitly references Arbites. And the WD Article that served as the first SoS dex referenced the Inquisition, as does the current Custodes dex.

So if Black Library says the Inquisition doesn't work with those forces, then BL is wrong... Just like they're wrong about a marine soloing a thousand guardsmen and so many of the other bolter-porn bs they're famous for.

If I recall correctly, assassins *aren't* under the Inquisition's authority, they're only ever supposed to be deployed with the approval of the Grand Master of the Assassinorum, and a 2/3rds vote of the Senatorum. This is because during the Wars of Vindication, Goge Vandire loyalist assassins tried to decapitate the imperium, and to prevent that from ever happening again, they needed approval from the Senatorum going forward. Which is why the Ordo Sicarus exists, Inquistors trained as assassins who's job is to watch over the assinorum, and as to be assassins lite when the Inquisition needs them. (Most of this is from Codex Assassins in 3rd ed) As for Arbites, yes they do work with the inquisition, but that's because everyone is supposed to work with the inquisition (even space marines, though they can get away with saying no), however, they are not part of the Inquisition's regular forces like the Chamber Militants and the storm Troopers. The Arbites are frankly the least egregious of the forces welded into Agents. Less so than a Rogue Trader and Co. The Inquistion works with nearly everyone, but that doesn't mean they're part of their regular forces, that honor goes to the Chamber Militants, Storm Troopers, and to a lesser extent the guard.

PenitentJake wrote:

 ProfSrlojohn wrote:

no special rules for integrating them into the Chamber Militants, (all we've seen is the generic agents system, link in spoiler below) all we know is that they're getting index rules, not a codex. They could even release a mini-dex similar to something like 7th-8th Harlies, and you could slot it into Chambers militant and each Chamber. There are so many ways to do it, but they instead try to use them as a justification for welding a bunch of one-off imperial units with very little in common.

Well here's the thing: Because an Inquisitor can be dropped into any Imperial army, adding one to their appropriate Chamber does create an army where an Inquisitor is leading their Chamber. Now obviously having Chamber detachments in a 10th dex would be cooler than this oversimplified band-aid solution.

And as for the "we don't know that Agents are getting a dex," I suppose technically that's true. But if we don't, will be the only faction focus article that doesn't. Add to that the transition to Imperial Agents as a faction that just happened a few months ago, the KT box, the Inquisition campaign that the box represents... I think it's a very, very safe bet.

Strictly speaking, yes, but that doesn't integrate them any better than adding any other agent's model into them. A Freeblade Knight is just as integrated as the Inquisitor. Which tends to lead to the Inquisitor only being taken (in 9th anyway) if you need a cheap psyker and that's it. Which is obviously moot in Grey Knights, generally useless in Deathwatch, and okay in sisters. There's no integration in those armies that would make them a worthwhile inclusion over anything else. Imagine if a Ordo Hereticus inquisitor could boost acts of faith? A Ordo Malleous brought command buffs to the Grey Knights? Ordo Xenos brought an Inquisitor with a wide array of xenos tech to use. That's what I'm getting at, there's no integration with those armies, so there is barely a reason to take them.

Arbites and Inquisitors go hand in hand, and have for ages.

 ProfSrlojohn wrote:
None of those forces fight with the Inquisition on a regular basis.

I think it's a mistake to refer to the Inquisition in such a manner, because the Inquisition isn't a centralised, codified or regimented part of the Imperium. It is entirely freeform - even more so than the Rogue Traders - and one Inquisitor might have a close relationship with the Adeptus Arbites and frequently goes into battle surrounded by squads of them, whereas others may work almost alone the entire time.

I think the reason they were in those books was not to show that they led or were part of those forces, but that if you wanted to represent an Inquisitor putting together an army, those were the forces they were likely to get ahold of, depending on what Ordo they were from: be it Arbites, or Storm Troopers, or Sisters or even Grey Knights.

Inquisitors, essentially, do what they want. They get to be in the book with all the rando-Imperial stuff that's been invented/brought back into the game over the last few years not because it's common for them to lead armies of those types of troops, but more that they're where those types of troops are most likely to appear.

Thanks Prof- that's some good fluff from a game source.

I think I misunderstood the degree of prohibition that you were talking about in your OP: it isn't that Inquisitors are forbidden, as much as it is that it requires politics and permissions. I can get behind that.

As for the other Agents factions, there's a bit of a misunderstanding of your OP there too. I'll be the first to agree that none of those factions are regular troops in the same way as Chambers. But that isn't the same as working together regularly. You can work with an army regularly, even if they aren't YOUR regular army.

I think that Inquisitorial alliances with some of these forces may be more common than you might think, even if they aren't well represented in fluff. I could totally see order Xenos working with Rogue Traders fairly often, looking for new Aliens at the fringes of the galaxy.

I could see any Inquisitor working with the Navy- they have to travel across the galaxy to do their work, and that's usually going to mean working with the Navy... And when they get to their destination, a valkyrie or two full of breachers as an escort. I've got a story arc lined up for the campaign where an Inquisitor arrives planetside to contain a cult with aspirations of spreading to other planets in the system. He's going to hitch a ride with a battlecruiser, and he's bringing a Master of the Fleet advisor down to the planet with him to coordinate orbital support. They'll both be escorted by cohorts of breachers in valkyries, which will then be seconded to the Imperial forces for the duration of the engagement.

Transports for Agents is one of the reasons I think we need a dex BTW. Authority of the Inquisition is great when you field an agent with another army, but if you field an Agents detachment, it does you no good, because we don't have Agents transports. To be clear, I don't want them to create new Agent vehicles; I want them to add a selection of Imperial vehicles to the Agents list.

Although... I do have a premonition that this would be a good time for the Repressor to make its return in plastic... There's not much the Sisters range needs, but that would make a lot of players happy, and firing points are already back in the game. Release the Repressor and an HQ Arbites unit, maybe a psychic detective and a bikes unit and you've got a decent little Arbites list. I'd like them to release a Navy HQ as well, and the Valkyrie is definitely one of the transports that should be in the dex.

Chamber militant detachments would already have transports because the Chambers have them, so no need to add Corvus Blackstars, Immolators or Land Raiders, but there should be Agent Keyworded Chimeras and Rhinos.

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
I really hope the book has close combat stats, something like:

S2, AP-, Damage -, causes target to be stunned for 1 turn

"Did you just smack me with your book?"

Even if it has "offhand/shield" like rules - The Shakespearean English is slowing me down more than a Judiciar's Tempormortis.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Wonder if we might see Imperial Agents introduced to 40K with something similar to Daemons?

I wouldn't be surprised. How much of the tail-end updates of 9th look like test balloons for 10th? The points update that got rid of costs for all the side-grades? AOS dets that didn't make you take troops?

 ProfSrlojohn wrote:


Strictly speaking, yes, but that doesn't integrate them any better than adding any other agent's model into them. A Freeblade Knight is just as integrated as the Inquisitor. Which tends to lead to the Inquisitor only being taken (in 9th anyway) if you need a cheap psyker and that's it. Which is obviously moot in Grey Knights, generally useless in Deathwatch, and okay in sisters. There's no integration in those armies that would make them a worthwhile inclusion over anything else. Imagine if a Ordo Hereticus inquisitor could boost acts of faith? A Ordo Malleous brought command buffs to the Grey Knights? Ordo Xenos brought an Inquisitor with a wide array of xenos tech to use. That's what I'm getting at, there's no integration with those armies, so there is barely a reason to take them.

To me the niche for the Inquisition (besides being cool) is a pitch hitter for Imperial Armies. For Marines an Inquisitor and some gun servitors add cheaper fire power. For the Guard an Inquisitor with Crusaders or Death Cultists gives them a halfway decent assault unit. Plus an Inquisitor should be able to be kitted up for Daemon/psyker/xenos killing.

You get the idea. A sole Inquisition army would be halfway between sisters and Guard, heavy on vets and storm troopers (or other 4+ save units like Arbites), with some funky specialist units.

Conversion and customization should be the watchword which have become increasingly dirty words in GW design.

My ideal =I= army would be something like

HQ
Inquisitors (varying ordos, level of puritanism and level of power from cheap Interrogators with a chainsword to expensive Inquisition Lords in terminator armor)
Retinue (various IG equivalent models that offer rerolls and other minor buffs or carry any number of special weapons)

Elites
Techpriests, assassins, rogue traders, etc


Troops
Warriors (IG vets free to take whatever power weapons or special weapons they want)
Storm Troopers (more regimented)
IG conscripts (people's crusade!)

Various units locked into ordos or radical/puritan but all worth taking
Heredicus-Sisters of Battle and/or Silence (puritans only), psykers (radical only)
Mallus-Grey Knights (puritan only), Daemon Hosts (radical only)
Xenos-Death Watch (puritan), Xenos Allies (radical)

Fast Attack & Heavy
Various IG and Marine vehicles

Yes I know these army divisions are going away with 10th but I see this as the basic shape.

PenitentJake wrote:Thanks Prof- that's some good fluff from a game source.

I think I misunderstood the degree of prohibition that you were talking about in your OP: it isn't that Inquisitors are forbidden, as much as it is that it requires politics and permissions. I can get behind that.

As for the other Agents factions, there's a bit of a misunderstanding of your OP there too. I'll be the first to agree that none of those factions are regular troops in the same way as Chambers. But that isn't the same as working together regularly. You can work with an army regularly, even if they aren't YOUR regular army.

I think that Inquisitorial alliances with some of these forces may be more common than you might think, even if they aren't well represented in fluff. I could totally see order Xenos working with Rogue Traders fairly often, looking for new Aliens at the fringes of the galaxy.

I could see any Inquisitor working with the Navy- they have to travel across the galaxy to do their work, and that's usually going to mean working with the Navy... And when they get to their destination, a valkyrie or two full of breachers as an escort. I've got a story arc lined up for the campaign where an Inquisitor arrives planetside to contain a cult with aspirations of spreading to other planets in the system. He's going to hitch a ride with a battlecruiser, and he's bringing a Master of the Fleet advisor down to the planet with him to coordinate orbital support. They'll both be escorted by cohorts of breachers in valkyries, which will then be seconded to the Imperial forces for the duration of the engagement.

Transports for Agents is one of the reasons I think we need a dex BTW. Authority of the Inquisition is great when you field an agent with another army, but if you field an Agents detachment, it does you no good, because we don't have Agents transports. To be clear, I don't want them to create new Agent vehicles; I want them to add a selection of Imperial vehicles to the Agents list.

Although... I do have a premonition that this would be a good time for the Repressor to make its return in plastic... There's not much the Sisters range needs, but that would make a lot of players happy, and firing points are already back in the game. Release the Repressor and an HQ Arbites unit, maybe a psychic detective and a bikes unit and you've got a decent little Arbites list. I'd like them to release a Navy HQ as well, and the Valkyrie is definitely one of the transports that should be in the dex.

Chamber militant detachments would already have transports because the Chambers have them, so no need to add Corvus Blackstars, Immolators or Land Raiders, but there should be Agent Keyworded Chimeras and Rhinos.

The issue isn't necessarily that they're in the codex, they can do split factions like with Deldar. The Issue is that they focus on making thise disparate forces work together, rather than making them work with the forces they should have far more access to and fight with as a standard part of their forces. Especially since Inquisitors don't generally go to war unless the time for investigation is over and it's time to take major action. There should be rules for the Chamber Militants, and Storm Troopers should exist, *before* they start trying to add forces like Arbites or Rogue Trader units.

H.B.M.C. wrote:Arbites and Inquisitors go hand in hand, and have for ages.

 ProfSrlojohn wrote:
None of those forces fight with the Inquisition on a regular basis.

I think it's a mistake to refer to the Inquisition in such a manner, because the Inquisition isn't a centralised, codified or regimented part of the Imperium. It is entirely freeform - even more so than the Rogue Traders - and one Inquisitor might have a close relationship with the Adeptus Arbites and frequently goes into battle surrounded by squads of them, whereas others may work almost alone the entire time.

I think the reason they were in those books was not to show that they led or were part of those forces, but that if you wanted to represent an Inquisitor putting together an army, those were the forces they were likely to get ahold of, depending on what Ordo they were from: be it Arbites, or Storm Troopers, or Sisters or even Grey Knights.

Inquisitors, essentially, do what they want. They get to be in the book with all the rando-Imperial stuff that's been invented/brought back into the game over the last few years not because it's common for them to lead armies of those types of troops, but more that they're where those types of troops are most likely to appear.

Which I'm not wholely against as an idea, but they're just using Inquisition as a way to barely weld them together as a different force (and not even that well I might add. You still can't make a functional Navis Nobilitiae detachment), rather than making Inquisition a proper army and using the other forces as supplements to the wider Inquisition force. Which is closer to what you would have them portray. That is what I'm trying (and seemingly failing) to get at. Since 7th they've just been used as a host for other forces, rather than their own force or a functional piece of those they most naturally go with. (Sisters, GK, DW)

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:

Spoiler:

To me the niche for the Inquisition (besides being cool) is a pitch hitter for Imperial Armies. For Marines an Inquisitor and some gun servitors add cheaper fire power. For the Guard an Inquisitor with Crusaders or Death Cultists gives them a halfway decent assault unit. Plus an Inquisitor should be able to be kitted up for Daemon/psyker/xenos killing.

You get the idea. A sole Inquisition army would be halfway between sisters and Guard, heavy on vets and storm troopers (or other 4+ save units like Arbites), with some funky specialist units.

Conversion and customization should be the watchword which have become increasingly dirty words in GW design.

My ideal =I= army would be something like

HQ
Inquisitors (varying ordos, level of puritanism and level of power from cheap Interrogators with a chainsword to expensive Inquisition Lords in terminator armor)
Retinue (various IG equivalent models that offer rerolls and other minor buffs or carry any number of special weapons)

Elites
Techpriests, assassins, rogue traders, etc


Troops
Warriors (IG vets free to take whatever power weapons or special weapons they want)
Storm Troopers (more regimented)
IG conscripts (people's crusade!)

Various units locked into ordos or radical/puritan but all worth taking
Heredicus-Sisters of Battle and/or Silence (puritans only), psykers (radical only)
Mallus-Grey Knights (puritan only), Daemon Hosts (radical only)
Xenos-Death Watch (puritan), Xenos Allies (radical)

Fast Attack & Heavy
Various IG and Marine vehicles

Yes I know these army divisions are going away with 10th but I see this as the basic shape.

I would honestly be okay with that. They don't necessarily need to make a wide array of new kits or anything, just make them a useful army/tool. I'd love to have a reason to put a Inquistor into my deathwatch but there really isn't one besides fluff.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Wonder if we might see Imperial Agents introduced to 40K with something similar to Daemons?

Since you were theorizing, we've already seen the rules for agents.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2023/04/13/bring-justice-to-warhammer-40000-with-free-rules-for-the-adeptus-arbites/

I’m more interested in the mutating cultists. Would be great to see this in 40K aswell

 ProfSrlojohn wrote:
Which I'm not wholely against as an idea, but they're just using Inquisition as a way to barely weld them together as a different force (and not even that well I might add. You still can't make a functional Navis Nobilitiae detachment), rather than making Inquisition a proper army and using the other forces as supplements to the wider Inquisition force. Which is closer to what you would have them portray.

Which I would respond to with: Should there be entire Navis Nobilitiae detachments? Or Adeptus Arbites detachments? I mean, my heart says "YES!" to the idea of an Arbites army, but that's personal biases more putting any real practical thought behind it.

As far as welding together an army, an Inquisitor is perhaps the most suited to that, alongside Rogue Traders, something that are also included in this jumble of units. Yes, it does feel "blitsy" in the sense that it inherently lacks any cohesion of real identity, but perhaps that's just what we're left with when there are so many Imperial institutions with their own small forces and only enough time to cover a handful of them.

On the other hand, as bad as it might be, you can do an detachment of Sisters of Silence... and they have like one and a half kits! So maybe one day there'll hope for Navy Breaching Teams or Arbites!

 ProfSrlojohn wrote:
That is what I'm trying (and seemingly failing) to get at. Since 7th they've just been used as a host for other forces, rather than their own force or a functional piece of those they most naturally go with. (Sisters, GK, DW)

This, unfortunately, is the monkey's paw of design paradigms and the way the studio sees the Inquisition at the moment. We got something back, but lost something in return. Let me explain what I mean.

You see, for many years, Alan Merritt was the head of IP, and he was vehemently against Genestealer Cults coming back into the game. Whilst he was around, the best you could manage was the most oblique and obfuscated references to 'alien cults' (and trust me, it was very annoying if you were writing something for an official published work that involved Genestealers, as I have done). As soon as he was gone though, look what suddenly made a massive resurgence?

But, with him gone, the people now in charge had their own views on 40k, and that does not involve the Inquisition as a fully fledged force. This is why we've been languishing with random special character models until now, and even now it's just a box with 5 scarcely customisable models (and two that aren't even that!), part of a narrative event that specifically excludes the Inquisitor. The studio isn't actually a friendly place for those that love the Inquisition as much as you or I might. They are not the types to see a resurgence in the old Daemonhunter/Witch Hunter style books, and we're unlikely to see that again until there's another shift in the studio (my hope is whoever's in charge next really hates the Tau, and ret-cons them out of the setting! ).

There's a thread in this forum about Korn/Khorne and a player's problems dealing with Angron the Angry.

The answer SHOULD be field a Daemon Hunting Inquisitor!

But unfortunately the big =I= is in such a sorry state right now the people whose whole job is to hunt daemons aren't very good at it.

The Angron issue isn't about dealing with the unit in general but in a specific scenario. Adding an Inquisitor isn't going to fix the issue when the issue isn't that Angron is a Daemon Primarch, it's that a player is bringing a 500pt model to 1000pt games.

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
But unfortunately the big =I= is in such a sorry state right now the people whose whole job is to hunt daemons aren't very good at it.

Ironically, even in their golden days, Daemonhunters/Grey Knights were better when fighting Eldar than Daemons.

36" ranged S6 weapons that fire multiple shots and ignore invuls? Eldar nightmare!

Regarding the little Imperial forces issue, and without quoting to respond to specific takes on it, my POV is that the potential for 25PL Crusade was the thing that made it all work. You get your 25PL inquisition detachment going around and investigating via investigation themed missions. As the Inquisition detachment acquires knowledge of the threat lurking beneath the surface, that detachment needs to reach out to the other factions in the campaign to assist with following up on a lead.

An example might be might be fighting alongside the Navis Imperialis after a GSC cult steals a Valkyrie that had been stationed at the IG Garrison's Airfield. Now whether or not the Valkyrie is recovered, the Inquisition now have a relationship with the NI, and once the magnitude of the threat has been revealed, there is already an in-game pretext for working with the NI. It is very much is the scaling of the game and the escalation mechanics, along with the RPG structure of detachments that make this work... You know, the stuff that all the "Must use points, must fight 2k+, must win, balance or bust" types HATE.

The new Agent rules are a huge improvement over the previous "Only one Agent per Detachment" crap that we dealt with all through 8th/9th. But 10th threw the baby out with the bathwater by ditching their support for 25PL game in core 10th. I say "core 10th" because technically Arks of Omen games are still viable in 10th, and if it's all I can get, I'll take it. I just don't like it, because it has its own restriction and special rules, which are fluffy for combat on a Hulk, but not as appropriate to a map-based campaign that takes place on the surface of a planet across diverse battlefields.

Now others will argue that at this scale, I should just use KT rules, and sometimes I do. But sometimes you want 40k only units like transports for their cinematic and narrative value, and that doesn't fly in KT.

One of my fave 25PL Crusades that I've put together is a DW Watchmaster leading a five strong proteus KT and Kyria Draxus leading a five strong Fortis team. My dream had been growing that Crusade's supply limit high enough to include a Corvus Blackstar... Though at the time, there were rules prohibiting Primaris from hitching a ride. We now know that the transport segregation of Firstborn/Primaris is ending for SOME vehicles, but we don't have an explicit guarantee that it's ending for ALL vehicles, so we'll have to wait to see what happens to the Blackstar.

And I can see viable 25pl armies for ALL of these factions that are absolutely fluff AF, which is why I want all of them to have they need to form a viable detachment. I don't think there are fluffy viable 2k builds for these factions... unless they come together under an Inquisitor. But not solo faction at 2k. This is why I want HQ's for the Arbites and the breachers. All of those "shipborn" rules are stupid, and if they aren't correct on the 10th datacards, an Agent dex isn't going to do much good.