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Dudeface wrote:

A man can dream they'll hold onto that last sensibility. If the sanguinor is a psychic manifestation or something, I can reluctantly live with that. But if they mcguffin birb boi out of a coffin I'll be annoyed.

Once they opened the bag with Roboute, it was inevitable that everyone else would follow sooner or later. It's just a matter of when.

But yeah, I would imagine some sort of greater deamon-esque manifestation appearing to save the Blood Angels from certain doom at the hands of [insert latest threat here]. Introducing him that way would at least allow for some speculation as to his true nature - whether it's actually Sanguinius in there, and whether or not he's still entirely pure.

With the Lion already out, though, Russ coming first would be the seemingly obvious choice.

 insaniak wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

A man can dream they'll hold onto that last sensibility. If the sanguinor is a psychic manifestation or something, I can reluctantly live with that. But if they mcguffin birb boi out of a coffin I'll be annoyed.

Once they opened the bag with Roboute, it was inevitable that everyone else would follow sooner or later. It's just a matter of when.

.

I actually think the long countdown to the official Emperor of Mankind model began that day.

I think Sanguinius, unfortunately, is inevitable.

GW won't be able to help themselves.

tneva82 wrote:
It's imaginary story which is written by company that makes model.

And? So? But? Therefore?

There's an Emperor's Children Codex coming. To assume that the next Primarch to return is Horus and not Fulgrim is really naive.

Maybe Vulkan can be the final primarch to return, with all the others helping to gather his triforce and make him give a damn.

Please leave Sanguinius dead...

As well as Horus. Black Legion has no Horus. Black Legion needs no Horus. (They have Abby who's Primarch-level already )

Fulgrim and Russ are the obvious next Ones', actually I wonder what's taking them so long
Russ' return will not make a lot of sense because, well, he missed the moment when he was supposed to return (oh, so you're telling me Thousand Sons attacking Fenris for real this time(TM) is the actual wolftime? And not when Abby won his 13th crusade or Magnus poisoned Fenris already? Sure...).
But GW will do it. 'Cause Wolves.

Sgt. Cortez wrote:
Russ' return will not make a lot of sense because, well, he missed the moment when he was supposed to return (oh, so you're telling me Thousand Sons attacking Fenris for real this time(TM) is the actual wolftime? And not when Abby won his 13th crusade or Magnus poisoned Fenris already? Sure...).

I mean, Russ declaring that he would return when needed doesn't actually mean he was in a position to do so. Particularly if he was stuck in the Warp where time is screwy.

For my money it's far more dramatic, if he's going to come back, to have him show up at a completely different time from when he intended and have the resultant fall out from that, rather than have him miraculously appearing just when he's most needed.

Sgt. Cortez wrote:
Please leave Sanguinius dead...

As well as Horus. Black Legion has no Horus. Black Legion needs no Horus. (They have Abby who's Primarch-level already )

Fulgrim and Russ are the obvious next Ones', actually I wonder what's taking them so long
Russ' return will not make a lot of sense because, well, he missed the moment when he was supposed to return (oh, so you're telling me Thousand Sons attacking Fenris for real this time(TM) is the actual wolftime? And not when Abby won his 13th crusade or Magnus poisoned Fenris already? Sure...).
But GW will do it. 'Cause Wolves.

Leman Russ wrote:
Listen closely Brothers, for my life's breath is all but spent. There shall come a time far from now when our chapter itself is dying, even as I am now dying. Then my children, I shall list'n for your call from whatever realms of death hold me, and come I shall no-matter what laws of life and death forbid. At the end I will be there. For the final battle. For the Wolftime.

This quote is from the 2nd ed codex and its context is important. The 2nd ed background explicitly says the primarchs aren't immortal and thus this carries more prophetic weight than it would now with their comic bookian super saiyan juvenility.

And your references don't meet his criteria in that quote - he's only coming back when the chapter is dying, not threatened. GW can decided what dying means at any time, but as per current 40k, the space wolves as a chapter aren't described as dying and they even have successor chapters, which means there are more active sons of russ now than there have been since the heresy. That's the opposite of dying.


As much as I don't like the return of the primarchs (because I preferred the mortal primarchs of 2nd ed over the literally giant manbabies we have now), I can at least follow their logic with the living ones.

But Sanguinius, Curze, Horus and Manus all dying are integral and meaningful to the pathos and mythos of the heresy. Any resurrection of them in modern 40k cheapens and entirely undermines that for the sake of a few bucks.

GW is falling into the classic corporatist trap that once they find something that sells, they ride it to death rather than invent anything else. Rather than creating new story for the imperium, they're trying to milk the old story, which will simultaneously destroy the value of the old story and cheapen the new one. it never ends well.

Not only does the Black Legion not need Horus; I feel like their story thus far would be severely diminished if he returned (and was accepted by them). Abaddon already stabbed his cloned ghost dad as a symbolic act of rejecting him. The Black Legion's "thing" is that they're not just another warband that remains fond of their primarch; they're the rallying point for every flavor of traitor that wants to take a piece out of the imperium regardless of who their dads are or even regardless of whether they're astartes (though upper management certainly seems to favor astartes).

A major part of Abadon's character is that he refuses to give into chaos and become Horus 2.0. Which, coming from the guy who famously resembles his dad, is like, symbolic and junk.

Plus, Horus returning, presumably with gnarlier stats than Abadon's, would just serve to diminish Abadon in comparison. Similarly to how Calgar is sort of redundant now that Guilliman is back.

I think the sanguinar is the psychic imprint of sanguinius's essence projected onto another mortal / space marine, or a manifestation of his essence projected into the warp. The black rage is the result of blood angles being subjected to this psychic echo and become imperfect copies of sanguinius as he was during his annihilation. It is my opinion that the sanguinar is a more perfect copy that does not just contain sanguinius's pain, but also some of his attributes and possibly memories. However the sanguinar is not sanguinius himself, merely an imperfect copy of him projected through the warp during his death.

If they want to reintroduce the sanguinar as a quasi sanguinius they need to keep him enigmatic and reserved with fragmented memories that are not really his own.

Slipspace wrote:

Breton wrote:

Dorn V Perturabo is the classic 30K Matchup, but they appear to be mixing up the Classic Rivalry matrix in 40K. Russ would have been the classic choice vs Magnus for example, and less obvious would be a Perpetual Vulkan vs the Lord of Death and Decay Mortarion. I think part of the switch up is so they don't have to bring back a secondary primarch to rival a "Big Four" (And yes, Fulgrim is one of the "four horsemen" but he's the "least" of them in terms of support, so supplanted by Horus - though one could also argue expanding it to a Big Five instead of Four, including a secondary Loyalist Primarch to the Primary.). I think another reason for the switchups showed up in the Seige of Baal. They're trying to spread out the "iconic" matchups for Summer Campaigns etc ergo giving the BA vs Nids story some oomph, you also see it in DA (instead of BA) vs World Eaters. I wouldn't be surprised to see a Wolves vs Necrons soon.

It's pretty clear GW are not basing their Primarch releases on any sort of rivalry. We got 2 Chaos ones before we got the first loyalist one, for example. It's equally clear the one thing you need in order to release a Primarch is an army for them to lead, which narrows the possibilities right now down to Space Wolves and Blood Angels for the loyalists and Fulgrim for Chaos. It seems extremely likely there'll be an EC Codex at some point in 10th, but the next one up is going to be SW, which opens the door for Russ to return and reset the balance of Primarchs. I hope we never see Sanguinius come back, given how central his death is to the character of the Chapter, and that then leaves Fulgrim as the next one we'll likely see.

I'd have preferred GW never brought them back at all, but if we have to see any I'd prefer they stop there as it seems like a logical point to stop - all current "main" SM/CSM armies (plus the one we know is coming) would have their Primarch at that point. The last thing we need is more SM/CSM bloat in 40k, especially when some armies are still struggling with ancient models for a lot fo their characters and units.

I doubt they drop Russ as part of a Codex release. Primarchs have been dropped primarily as part of an event. We may see either or both over the summer campaign. This first one of 10th is also unlikely, I'd expect to see one or both in Summer of 25.

I realized that there's another thing about Russ's return: he was going to the warp to find "The Tree of life" to save Dad.. So.. either he succeeds and there are major repercussions- but more likely, he'll have to hang his head and say "Nope, no golden apples."
I had also forgotten Fulgrim didn't have a plastic model- I think the recent FW release confused me. But, If I can help it I'll NEVER by a model kit from Forge World. (Conversion bits, maaaybe).

 TheChrispyOne wrote:
I realized that there's another thing about Russ's return: he was going to the warp to find "The Tree of life" to save Dad.. So.. either he succeeds and there are major repercussions- but more likely, he'll have to hang his head and say "Nope, no golden apples."

Only if his return is his decision. IF they remember, and IF they care, its pretty easy to have the Warp just vomit him back into realspace somewhere.

Fulgrim should point blank be next. Get the four chosen of the Chaos powers out there. I am a big believer 40k would have been better off if none of them had been playable. But now that they are, all of the living ones should be available. After Fulgrim should be Sigm.... I mean Vulkan. Then the Khan. Russ should be last when the SW and the Imperium really are about to die. Give me 10 actual years of 40k where things go from bleak to bleaker for the imperium. When Russ arrives he brings the 'fruit of the tree of life'. He brings a tiny spark of hope. Because Emps sent him to get it. Hope that with 10,000 more years of warfare perhaps mankind may survive. The so called 'fruit' doesn't revive Emps, but it allows him to take the first step on the path to the Starchild or whatever.



If anyone was going to lose it over the Imperium's condition it would have been Lionel.

Russ appeared to have aged immediately post siege of Terra. The Lion is not old now because he aged for 10,000 years. He appears old because he believes he is wiser and older. Russ knew about the Primarchs being made partially of warp stuff. That didn't affect him pre-disappearance. It should not affect him post return. I think making him a werewolf would be hideous in two ways. One the SW have been flanderized since 5th edition (admittedly many of the Codexs of the same time period were huge flanderizations) and that would just make it worse. Secondly it doesn't fit his story. He more than most of the other Primarchs actually grew as a person during the Heresy. To then toss that away with lols-werewolf would be stupid.



GW picks and chooses what of the old fluff they keep. Certainly enough has been tossed by the wayside that they might also throw this out. Personally I'd like to see it kept. Although the 'Seed of the Tree of Life' need not be as literal as a golden apple that helps the Emps.

I Truely hope they keep the dead Primarchs dead. Note this is 40k and dead does not mean they cannot participate. Make the Sanguinor more powerful. Make him slowly gain power across editions as he regains various fragments of Sanguinius' soul. Make Ferrus Manus a literal Daemon of the Emperor, have him (once again) lead the other daemons of the Emps out of the warp from time to time. Cruze could be similar. Horus should stay dead as a doornail.

I think making him a werewolf would be hideous in two ways. One the SW have been flanderized since 5th edition (admittedly many of the Codexs of the same time period were huge flanderizations) and that would just make it worse. Secondly it doesn't fit his story. He more than most of the other Primarchs actually grew as a person during the Heresy. To then toss that away with lols-werewolf would be stupid.

Did he grow as a person? I've mostly only seen him as a kameo in other characters' HH books. The impression I got wasn't that he'd grown so much as that he remained static but revealed more and more of his static character to the reader over time. In the novel where he tries to gank Horus with his spear (I forget the title), he gives the impression that he's basically really good at double-think and thus doesn't have to really update his worldview as long as he's confident he's serving the right cause.

To me, werewolfing him wouldn't necessarily be a reflection of a loss of humanity. In Corvus's case, the implication from the story where he beats up Lorgar seems to be that being in a warp-drenched location let his "true nature" manifest physically. That is, he didn't necessarily lose his humanity so much as he just happened to be a partially-supernatural being operating in a location with one foot in the warp. To my mind, Corvus's arc left him as human as ever (however human that may be), and his crow mode doesn't detract from that. So similarly, you could come up with an excuse for why all the Wolf King's wolf imagery manifested physically after spending millenia drenched in warp juice. It doesn't have to be a metaphor for losing his humanity.

And while I agree with you that the wolfy McWolf Wolf thing is kind of groan-worthy, so is releasing yet another Guilliman-sized primarch who's just another flavor of super captain. Making him essentially a wolfy daemon prince would at least break up the silhouettes of the loyalist primarchs a bit and help give them space to do something unique with his rules.

 Wyldhunt wrote:
Making him essentially a wolfy daemon prince would at least break up the silhouettes of the loyalist primarchs a bit and help give them space to do something unique with his rules.

It would also add some additional tension to the setting. Imperium's all - 'Yay! Another Primarch's back! But... is he... a daemon...?'

There would be issues of trust, and it would likely put the Space Wolves even more firmly on the wrong side of the Inquisition.

 insaniak wrote:

 Wyldhunt wrote:
Making him essentially a wolfy daemon prince would at least break up the silhouettes of the loyalist primarchs a bit and help give them space to do something unique with his rules.

It would also add some additional tension to the setting. Imperium's all - 'Yay! Another Primarch's back! But... is he... a daemon...?'

There would be issues of trust, and it would likely put the Space Wolves even more firmly on the wrong side of the Inquisition.

Which is frankly a pretty cool place for the wolves to be. Plus, it would give Russ his own reason for not going to Terra and pretty much repeating what Roboute did. I suspect they're going to try to have each of the returned primarchs after Guilliman busy themselves with their own little projects/crusades. So Russ can go questing and enjoy being a viking and/or wolf monster. The Lion can zig zag around the map burying the hatchet with the Fallen. You can give each one their own styles/goals/vibes that help differentiate/define the regions they're hanging out. If you head near Fenris? You're in for some viking metal heroics. Stick near Roboute? You've got beauracracy and crumbling empires. The Lion? Enjoy your Arthurian quests and redemption arcs or whatever.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

Breton wrote:
... and some form of Horus...

Horus? It'll be Fulgrim.

Agreed. Last of the main Cult Marines to be redone in plastic, along with the last of the Epic Primarchs to arrive in 40K. Has to be.

Vulkan won't come back until his 9 artefacts have been recovered. They have found 5. With the current Vulkan-He'stan having found the last couple. There is a recent clue to the Unbound Flame artefact.

Primaris SW gene seed is okey, because the stock is based on SW gene seed the way it was, before Wolves of Space started recruitting from Fenris. The problem with the SW gene seed in the pre primaris setting was that it mutated, because of an unwanted and unexpected reaction between the canis gene helix and the fact that the population of Fenris moded their DNA to have a higher chance to survive the post comet hit Fenris enviroment. They used DNA sequances from animals. And when two things of the same kind meet up in one place, then 1+1 isn't always 2. Sometimes it is 3 and sometimes it is 9000 wulfen. The strong reaction, as in almost instant, some crusade era fenrisian recruits was the result. On top of that just like the gene seed changes the young lad it is put in to, the lad , or rather 10k years of lads, also impacts the gene seed. So much time in gene moded people and the SW gene seed became, not as much unstable, as unable to function in a "regular" human. That is why the attempts to create SW successor chapters failed. While there technicaly being nothing wrong with the gene seed or the organ implanted in to new aspirants. Oddly enough the mutations somehow made it so, that implantation of some of the SW organs are beneficial to chaos space marine. The NL for example, when implanted with Catalepsean Node, taken from wolf scouts, greatly reduce episodes of mania and similar disorders.