StudentOfEtherium wrote:i don't see why this has to be an either/or situation. each kill team box (except the first each season) comes with a new sculpt and an existing kit with an upgrade sprue. so there's space for both fire warriors with an upgrade sprue, and at a different time, vespids. it's not a zero sum game and voicing a staunch opinion that one should not exist (without ever explaining that opinion) is just coming across as bullheaded
Exactly. At the end of the day, we have no say in whatever releases
GW choose to do, but it's simply a false premise to say that "IF ONLY
GW DIDN'T RELEASE THOSE VESPID, AND THEN
WE'D DEFINITELY HAVE THIS TAU UNIT".
I'd never say "no" to more units - it's better than nothing at all.
Kanluwen wrote:
Sgt_Smudge wrote:You started this thread. You made the first statement. Back it up, and then I'll answer mine.
The onus is on you.
Nah. I've already answered yours. You disliked the answer and chose to keep trying to go for the throat.
Your answer was "because they're Better". As if it were some kind of objective statement. Why on earth should any of us settle for that?
HOW is it better?
WHY is it better?
Convince me, using, as you so put it so patronisingly to someone else, with "actual words".
That doesn't answer it though. Vespid are part of the Tau Empire. It wouldn't be hard to imagine that Vespid could be a part of those pockets of resistance.
Sure it would. Because it's explicitly called out as
Fire Caste forces left behind in the initial Chalnath book. The whole premise of that first book had the Tau Empire identifying the same "weak" worlds as the Sororitas to be targeted for bringing into line.
So, not Drones? Because they're not Fire Caste, they're Drones, right?
If you're going to be a pedant and say that, when
GW say "Fire Caste", they outright exclude in all senses any chance that the T'au auxiliary units that fight alongside them might be fighting alongside them, then you surely also much agree that the Drones the Tau fight with also can't be present?
What a myopic view.
The most recent Codex: Tau Empire further added to it that Kroot posing as mercenaries have been smuggling Gue'vesa units, Pathfinder Teams, and Water Caste gue'la "enlightenment" cells to those worlds.
What's to stop them "adding to it" that Vespid have been acting as recon for the Tau forces?
Oh, and hang on - you just said that apparently it's just "Fire Caste" there, but now there's Kroot, Gue'vesa (not Fire Caste!) and Water Caste? Which one is it?
At the moment, it just feels like you have this irrational hatred of Vespid - which you've said you don't have, but there is a massive disconnect between what you're saying here.
Maybe it feels that way to you because you've spent a lot of effort over the past few years to paint anything and everything as me having an "irrational hatred" of it?
Nah. I actually do agree with you on a lot of points you mention - but this one reads as very disconnected. I'm not *accusing* you of it, but letting you know that it reads like that.
You can change your language accordingly, if you don't feel that way.
Vespid are boring(since apparently I have to say this: TO ME) as a concept at this juncture. They're bugs that were brought in to serve as an infantry-sized jump troop with a Plasma Gun equivalent.
And that's okay if you find that boring. But then, does them being boring to you presently mean that they shouldn't then be expanded with some extra information and perhaps wargear/model archetypes that might make them *less* boring?
At present, it sounds a bit like this:
"Vespid are neglected, and as a result, feel boring. How about we use Kill Team to add a bit of depth to them?"
"No."
"Why not?"
"Because they feel boring."
"Yes, they do. How about we make them less boring, using this gamemode that is really good at adding these touches of flavour?"
"No."
"Why not?"
"Because they're boring."
"Yes, agreed - so let's change that!"
"No."
"Why not?
"Because they're boring."
You see why this is a problem?
And have I defended that? No.
Never said you defended it.
Good. Don't put words in my mouth.
I'd rather have had upgrade frames for units that aren't just the old "here's a medic, here's a melee expert, here's a marksman, here's a demolitions expert etc".
And what exactly do you think a Vespid Kill Team would bring in that wouldn't just be those same general archetypes?
Kill Team has archetypes.
Not every faction has those archetypes, and in the more alien and unconventional units, there's greater room for unconventional roles.
An example I gave might be something like a Vespid model that can emit some kind of disruptive debuff using amplified resonance from its wings. Another might be a Vespid unit which airdrops airbursting grenades. Ultimately, it's that these are being given to a unit *which has a very different playstyle to other factions*. If we're to keep this purely between Tau units, and to compare your proposed Fire Warrior
KT to my hypothetical Vespid
KT, the Vespid have (at their core), a very different playstyle. They have high mobility (flying), a weapon that is unlike the existing Tau weaponry, and could add a range of new unseen archetypes into, not just the game, but also into the theming of the unit. Whereas Fire Warriors differ from Pathfinders... how? They have better (but similar) rifles, the same movement options, likely similar special weapons if any were added (you explicitly mention Rail Rifles, which are in the Pathfinder roster as well), and... well, you didn't go into much detail on what specialists they might have.
Ultimately, Vespid *feel* like a massive departure from existing Kill Team archetypes.
Entirely new (well, renewed) faction that welcomed a bit more fleshing out. Hardly the same.
Oh so now we're splitting hairs! It's okay when it's an "entirely new(well, renewed) faction" but not for anyone else?
In case you missed the memo, Votaan literally *did not exist as a playable faction* prior to a few years ago, after they were famously Squatted.
That is why.
Sorry, but there's room for a lore and concept setup for a Vespid team (play around with their harmonic/resonant nature, their nature as rapid heavy hitters for the Pathfinders, and expand their unique alien nature), which is, IMO FAR more interesting
And literally only mentioned once ever in a third-party
RPG product as a suggested pairing rather than an actual, lore-based thing.
Lore based? Which lore is that again? Current codex? 9th? 7th? 3rd?
And, yet again, we come back to that point I raised earlier:
"Hey, how about we make these folks less boring!"
"No."
"Why not?"
"Because they're boring."
"How about we make them less boring?"
"No."
"Why not?"
"I don't want to waste time on boring units."
"Okay, so let's make them less boring."
"No."
etc etc
than "Fire Warriors with an upgrade sprue which just apes all the same archetypes that every other upgrade sprue Kill Team does, and is basically just Pathfinders with more armour".
Again: Kill Team has archetypes. I'm sorry that this idea apparently offends you to such an extent but that's the way the system works.
Yes, it has archetypes - but it *also* has some units which play with those archetypes in meaningful and new ways.
The same archetypes would play very differently in a faction which flies around and uses a unique base rifle, compared to... another footslogging faction which differs from Pathfinders... how? And that's an open and genuine question, in what ways would a Fire Warrior Kill Team differ from Pathfinders? Interchanging pulse blasters and rifles is one thing, but what else?
Again - I wouldn't care so much if you emphasised that this is just an opinion and entirely subjective, but then you keep coming out with these patronising comments ("use actual words") and absolutely statements ("more interesting") which paint this idea of objectivity.
Someone shouldn't be forced to constantly state that their statement is their opinion.
Someone shouldn't go around blasting their opinion without accepting that their opinion is no better than someone else's, and actually use salient points to defend their opinions, instead of falling back on "they're more Interesting" or "they're just Better in every other sense".
That's not you "stating an opinion". That's you passing it off as fact, without consideration for other opinions.
Again - it entirely comes down to your tone and language, which is what I'm pointing out. You're making these patronising comments and absolute statements, and then not backing them up with anything yourself.
If YOU think that Kill Team should be used to reskin existing units with a tacticool specialist skin for a basic infantry squad in a faction that already has a similar archetype, then that's fine!
Pathfinders are built around synergy, Markerlights, and can include off-board assets.
You'll note that nothing I suggested for a Fire Caste Kill Team included a "marksman"
outside of the Firesight Marksman and their sniper drone themselves.
So please, genuinely asking, *in what way would Fire Warriors differ from Pathfinders*? What should they have, what unique attributes should they have that distinguishes them from other infantry units with a team of archetypes? What would make them stand out?
But don't try claiming that it's "more interesting" to anyone other than you, or that your hangup on "Kill Team should never be used to update older models" is anything other that your own personal gripe.
The latter bit seems to be a fairly well shared sentiment, if you'd bothered to read other posts.
And yet, I've seen it also very well shared that folks just want cool models. But sure, maybe it's a personal gripe that multiple people hold. That doesn't make it any more "objective" or externally valid.
I personally think it's completely fine, and that's just as valid an opinion as yours.
You'll notice though that I've never actually said "it should never be used to update older models". It's that it shouldn't become an avenue that does nothing
but do that.
I agree that it shouldn't "only" do that. Very firmly, in fact. But I don't see why Vespid getting a Kill Team is this straw that breaks the camel's back here, or that we're any closer to Kill Team "only" doing that.
That's not what I'm talking about either. Also, interesting that earlier, you shut down the idea of some Vespid lore as being outdated, but then bring up Vespid lore that isn't mentioned in the current Codex.
Seems a little inconsistent.
The Communion Helm lore is actual lore from
GW themselves. It not being in the current codex is certainly a knock against it, but the lore being stripped out of codices is unfortunately a common thing.
Actual lore, except it's not been mentioned for a while. And, Kan, I've seen you shoot down
GW's lore treatment of certain factions several times - are you really going to argue on the infallibility of
GW's lore?
Vespids with Pathfinders is from Deathwatch: Mark of the Xenos, and came from a suggestion for unit pairings for GMs.
That it is, and the canonicity of that is just as disputed - but ultimately, that's the kind of lore that
GW could *add* with a resurgent Vespid kit. Actually developing them, and making them less boring, as you so put (which I agree with! They are, at present boring!)
Sgt. Smudge wrote:Kanluwen wrote:No? It's perfectly possible to create a kit for Vespid that doesn't change their Codex version, but provides a Kill Team analogue. Or, they do it like Corsairs, and then introduce a "veteran Vespid" unit which has all the Kill Team goodies. One single FAQ addition. Slap it in the MFM, like how points change constantly.
LOL, and if I suggested it would be neat to do something similar for Kasrkin you'd be decrying it as bloat. Nah.
Kasrkin already have that?? Literally, Kasrkin *are* already that - and I've not said it's bloat.
You're just making up statements against you now.
Cool, so I'm not editing my statement out of this. Just so you can't try to pretend that I've edited something out of it.
Kasrkin are
not that. Kasrkin are a single unit, with all of their options on their actual frames. There's no "Veteran Kasrkin unit" with all the Kill Team goodies, there's no "Veteran Guardsman unit", no "Brood Brothers unit".
CORSAIRS ARE THE ONLY UNIT TO HAVE RECEIVED THAT TREATMENT.
So, as someone who doesn't have the Kasrkin kit, and is now genuinely curious - are you saying that you *cannot build the Kasrkin kit without including the bits that make certain minis specialists*?
As in, you cannot build the squad for
40k useage without building the Recon Trooper, Medic, and Demo-Trooper?
I want to just check I'm getting my facts right here. I'm not talking about "you can buy a version of the kit which doesn't have the upgrade sprue", I'm talking that, there is a version you can build which doesn't feature certain specialists? Because that's what I'm talking about here. I'm very aware that the Brood Brothers and Veteran Guardsmen come with "upgrade sprues" that turn a "normal unit" into a
KT unit. I'm just checking in that Kasrkin have *no way* of being built without certain specialists?
Again, I'm just trying to clarify this position here, because you say this: "Can't outfit the Sergeant with a Hellgun(despite it literally being an option for
KT and an option in the instruction sheet for the generic unit)" - what do you mean by "generic unit"?
Warzone in question" - there's nothing saying that Vespid AREN'T present. There's also nothing saying that Firesight Marksmen are.
Fire Caste being present suggests that Farsight Marksmen are present.
Suggests. I would also personally argue that Vespid could also be present with Fire Caste forces, given that they're part of the T'au military, in the same way I'd also not be surprised by Kroot or Gue'vesa being there - which, you later mention *are*.
"Better for the lore of the army in question" - In what way? In what way is having a marginally more greeblied Fire Warrior squad "better", but fleshing out Vespid isn't? You're making statements, not arguments.
And in what way is fleshing out Vespid with Kill Team archetypes "better for the lore of the army in question"?
Because it adds to it? Why would it be worse?
