Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

Could the Ad Mech locals be receiving bribes?

I honestly don’t know. Would such bribery be pretty common place across the Imperium? Sure. I mean, the Cog Boys are a truly essential and indispensable part of any Imperial World, and only gain importance as you go up the developmental tree.

But bribed specifically about the STC? That I sincerely doubt, because of what a prize it is.

Sure, at the time of discovery you might be a journeyman or freshly qualified lowly Enginseer. But as we‘ve seen, The Imperium as a whole richly rewards those who uncover even a fragment.

For a Priest? Surely they are blessed in the eyes of the Omnissiah, and so will have to be part of the study of such a wonder. Not necessarily “nobody to Fabricator General in one easy step”. But your further advancement would surely be all but assured*

*Not allowing for jealous brethren trying to bump you off to claim it for their own.

I just don’t think there’s any bribe which would keep their metal mitts off.

No, not bribes specifically to ignore an STC. I doubt any of the noble houses, or potentially even Van Saar themselves, know there is a functioning STC system on Necromunda.

But it is very plausible that bribes are given to keep the Ad Mech from looking too closely at the world in general. Don't need the cogboys poking around too much and uncovering any tech heresy like, hypothetically I said hypothetically! xenos tech in widespread use by the nobility. This would just have the happy coincidence of obscuring any other juicy tech tidbits like the STC.

Ahh. Yeah, that definitely makes sense, and files under “The General, uncooperative mess that is inter-adepta relations” that is The Imperium.

It would also explain the weirdly "mechadendrites off" approach of the Mechanicus on Necromunda. Is really is weird for most of them to stay in orbit on an advanced Imperial world.

Could also be “we conducted a thorough search in M34, nothing to see then, so nothing to see now”

Please note the M34 isn’t a background thing, just a random example.

So, I'm not up on the most current iteration of the lore, especially not for the current Necromunda.

But as a generalized 40K lore thing, as I understood it, a functioning STC unit while very rare, isn't actually the goal for the AdMech. The holy grail of the Mechanicum is to assemble a full, complete STC database of everything recorded to templates prior to the Dark Age of Technology.

Unless it's explicitly stated that the Van Saar found an STC that the AdMech does not, and has not, ever, in over 10K years, found or heard of...

...it's entirely possible the AdMech found it during or shortly after the Crusade/Heresy, downloaded its database, and added that to their compilation. Maybe they don't look too hard for it, because every time they look up some tech in a Forge World STC, half the entries are flagged as "Source: Full Necromunda/Primus Hive STC download; M31.538".

Again, maybe the book specifically contradicts this - I haven't read it - but maybe the AdMech isn't too concerned, because they saw it was integrated into an important hive, the AI hid itself, and they downloaded everything the care about from it so long ago, no one on Necromunda remembers it happening? Maybe the Van Saar are desperate to keep a secret that the AdMech are like, "Oh, that old thing? Yeah, that's where a lot of the fundamentals came from. We left it there so the hive can continue to produce."

Ad Mech aren't the sort to leave what's basically a holy artifact in the hands of anyone but themselves. Let alone the filth in the underhive of a hive spire.

Theoretically, a complete STC will have a complete STC Database.

They’re kind of weird machines. Rather than being programmed with all known blueprints and designs and that, they were programmed with the sum total of all mankind’s collective knowledge.

Once planetside, the colonists need only let the STC known what they needed, and what resources were on hand, and it would work out the rest - including the capacity to innovate in design.

Some churned out blueprints only. Others would manufacture the parts for manual assembly. Others still don’t sound far off Star Trek’s industrial replicators, and would do the whole shebang. But all did so by applying everything mankind ever knew about physics, chemistry, biology etc, and not from pre-loaded schematics. Well, not entirely.

What this can potentially mean is a complete, intact, working STC can be given any existing fragment, and asked to improve on it, or where a fragment is truly fragmentary, to extrapolate the rest of the design.

And it’s those designs The Mechanicum craves. Because we can look to the wider Imperium’s industrial capacity and see its far from incompetent. Just unimaginative and uninnovating.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Could also be “we conducted a thorough search in M34, nothing to see then, so nothing to see now”

Please note the M34 isn’t a background thing, just a random example.

I don't mean in terms of searches. It is normal for techpriests to be embedded in the fabric of an advanced world, because that is part of how they maintain their monopoly on technology. A factory will have a techpriest overseeing the maintenance artisans, a powerplant will have a techpriest, the water treatment and recycling plant will have a techpriest, the defence lasers and void shield arrays will have a techpriest, the air scrubbers will have a techpriest. When a say a, I mean at least one. Necromunda is weird in that they entrust so much of this to local artisans, which is part of why I feel there must be some... arrangement in place to facilitate this. Quite probably a corrupt one.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Overread wrote:
Ad Mech aren't the sort to leave what's basically a holy artifact in the hands of anyone but themselves. Let alone the filth in the underhive of a hive spire.

Again, the STC isn't hidden in the underhive and controlled by a gang, it is hidden in the hive proper and controlled by the leaders of one of the 6 most powerful clan households on Necromunda, who likely rule over a population of billions.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Could also be “we conducted a thorough search in M34, nothing to see then, so nothing to see now”

It's also possible they're actively avoiding Necromunda, given the whole Hermiatus thing...

I wanted to go over the reasons that the Van Saar keep their secrets, as detailed by the book of Artifice itself. I searched through the book for a while so my apologies for any stuff already discussed in length.

First of all let’s look inward:
- The Van Saar protect the location of the STC through layers of security, including technology made by the device itself. It is their most well-defended territory on the planet.

- Its hiding place - The Chamber of Light - is located beneath the Underdomes of Hive Primus, right underneath the Spaceport. While it pulses with a strange energy signature, the irradiated runoff from those docks hide that signature pretty well. I also still think that they imply that the Chamber of Light lies within Hive City, even though the Spaceport is located above the Wall within the Spire.

- Your status within House Van Saar depends on your knowledge of their secrets, with the highest Archeoteks knowing about the device, while those at the bottom of the hierarchy have no clue how they get their tech, or even why they are dying of radiation. Still, of the highest ranks, most of them will never even see the device in person.

- As stated many times, the Van Saar have only been a prevalent gang since m35, with their STC not even located within the Hive yet. The device would travel constantly on a maglev train during the 37th millenium, before settling into its current location in m38. (Side note: probably some might believe that the STC is still mobile and always changing location)

- Rogue elements of the House are hunted down if they threaten the secret nature of the STC. This also extends to outsiders trying to pry into Van Saar business. While the Van Saar are privy to the secrets of the STC and try to convince themselves they are better than the Mechanicus, they are just as rigid in reverence, and protective of their own secrets as tech-priests are. Instead of adherence to the teachings of the Cult mechanicus, it is adherence to the instructions of the STC (kind of Votann-ey if you think about it).

- Most of the weapons and gear they produce is well within the standards of the rules laid out by the Adeptus Mechanicus, even if they are of much higher quality to the usual arms and armor of Necromunda. They don’t play all the cards they have at their disposal, and it keeps the origin of their creation much more obscure.

Next, how they actually tie together with the rest of Necromunda…

- To almost everyone in Necromunda, they have no idea that something like an STC is present on the planet, or even that the Van Saar have access to such a thing. The common belief by other hivers is that the Van Saar found a motherload of archeotech, which is in a broad sense true. This myth of some ancient vault that keeps the Van Saar stockpiled with archeotech, keeps the actual truth hidden.

- The Van Saar have worked their way into becoming almost indispensible to Necromunda. They have overtaken control over most industries that keep the hive in working order. Van Saar controls the production of Melta-weaponry and is in competition to do the same with las-tech. Another vital part they play is when it comes to maintenance. While the guilds control vital components of Hive-life, it is Van Saar that keeps their operations in working order. The Mercator Lux need the Van Saar to maintain the power grid so it keeps the city lit.

- It isn’t just general stuff. Van Saar has deep ties to the other clan houses, from the Gene-vats of Goliath, to the chem-tech of Escher. These other houses need those machines to survive, with house cawdor being potentially the only house that doesn’t benefit from them directly.

- The Van Saar are known most famously for their Artifice Houses, which produce upmarket goods for the highest bidder. Most Noble Houses will pay great sums of money for these goods and take pride within the fact that even premium goods from off-world don’t share the quality of Van Saar quality products. To the noble houses, the Van Saar are artisans with a good track record, not holders of ancient secrets.

- Speaking of noble houses; Van Saar has contracts to produce for House Helmawr, and the Imperial House has a vested interest to keep this valuable source protected and functioning. In fact, the Van Saar’s technical expertise has aided the Imperial House in securing the tithe. It was Van Saar who helped in the construction of the Eye of Selene, and it was their cooperation with house escher that birthed the Goliaths. They are a huge benefactor in keeping the planet running, and the other houses will try to aid them if anyone would try to harm that symbiotic relationship.

- This aid has been given multiple times to stop the enemies of the Van Saar, which includes against prying imperial authorities. It has already been mentioned that the Mechanicus at one point did send an investigatory team to inspect the Van Saar, and that this resulted in their dissapearance. House Helmawr covered this up and then bribed/deceived/appeased the Mechanicus with Archeotech gifts. Almost no Tech Adepts of the Mechanicus venture further than the spire, and I think that might be because House Helmawr has kept them deliberately on a short leash.

- There might be some within the other houses who have an idea of what the Van Saar might be hiding, but every single House, both Noble and Clan, has their own skeletons hiding in their closets, and they fear that bringing Van Saar’s secrets to light might set off a chain reaction that exposes them as well. Even House Helmawr has been tied to activities that would bring the Big Boot down on the planet if it was ever found out.

- Speculation: I also think that other houses would rather take the secrets of Van Saar for themselves than rat them out and get meager rewards in return. I think the selfish potential of much grander power keeps other houses from snitching.

So in summary:

The Van Saar keep the secret of their STC safe thanks to a strict hierarchal structure, active deceptive strategies and tight protection measures that keeps the device hidden from view and stooped in mythological and paradoxical rumour, while the fruits of the STC and their learned expertise have been integrated into a vital element of the Hiveworld. Most houses, including House Helmawr are so reliant on their craft and knowledge, that they can’t afford to lose such an asset to other factions or even imperial institutions. The Van Saar use the fruits of their STC as a bargaining chip to protect them from less pliable factions like the Adeptus Mechanicus.

Now I’m going to finally add another little tidbit that is very important.

Just because the Van Saar have evaded Imperial scrutiny doesn’t mean it can’t or won’t ever happen. They have stepped close to that threshold many times. The STC has almost been discovered or destroyed multiple times, and now that its tendrils have dug deep into the Hive, Van Saar can’t attempt to relocate it anymore. Remnants of the Iron Lords have tried to destroy the House, and with the rise of House Aranthus post-great-rift, I think the Van Saar have lost their most useful ally (I need to reread the aranthian succession again to see if they actually mentioned this plot hook). Van Saar lives on a world that would be destroyed 10 times over, but the glacial pace of imperial bureaucracy and the criminal master-plays of House Helmawr (and now House Aranthus) have kept it from Imperial wrath.

I think that about covers it.

Iracundus wrote:

mithril2098 wrote:

it's possible that they don;t realize it is an STC.. they might just think of it as an advanced computer. we don't even know how much they realize that it has an active AI of its own. remember they're not DAOT people themselves, they're the descendants of a bunch of scavengers that found the colony ship in M35, which used the colony ship's resources to build an industrial empire. they may not be technoreligious cultists like the mechanicus, but that doesn't mean they actually knew enough about what they found to identify everything correctly.

The Van Saar actually seem to have a techno-religious cult around the STC. Any sufficiently advanced tech in 40K becomes like magic to the ignorant masses and eventually becomes worshipped. The latest Necromunda release about this former Van Saar member that tried to merge with the STC is also an example of this.

which sounds like an evolution the general techno-spiritualism of the imperium post heresy. still, they're not mechanicus and thus might not be aware of exactly what an STC is beyond "ancient blueprints".

Overread wrote:It's a good point about if the Van Saar know the STC as an STC. Much like how we are quick to spot demons whilst many in the setting might not know a demon from a xenos or a xenos from a demon. Let alone tell demons of different kinds from each other.

There's every chance most lower ranking Van Saar know there is a machine that does amazing things but not that its an STC by name.

you mean like "friendly wolf spirits of fenris"? heh.

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:Could also be “we conducted a thorough search in M34, nothing to see then, so nothing to see now”

Please note the M34 isn’t a background thing, just a random example.

very possible. especially if the mechanicus's record keeping set up has anything in common with the Administratum.

Psychopomp wrote:So, I'm not up on the most current iteration of the lore, especially not for the current Necromunda.

But as a generalized 40K lore thing, as I understood it, a functioning STC unit while very rare, isn't actually the goal for the AdMech. The holy grail of the Mechanicum is to assemble a full, complete STC database of everything recorded to templates prior to the Dark Age of Technology.

Unless it's explicitly stated that the Van Saar found an STC that the AdMech does not, and has not, ever, in over 10K years, found or heard of...

...it's entirely possible the AdMech found it during or shortly after the Crusade/Heresy, downloaded its database, and added that to their compilation. Maybe they don't look too hard for it, because every time they look up some tech in a Forge World STC, half the entries are flagged as "Source: Full Necromunda/Primus Hive STC download; M31.538".

Again, maybe the book specifically contradicts this - I haven't read it - but maybe the AdMech isn't too concerned, because they saw it was integrated into an important hive, the AI hid itself, and they downloaded everything the care about from it so long ago, no one on Necromunda remembers it happening? Maybe the Van Saar are desperate to keep a secret that the AdMech are like, "Oh, that old thing? Yeah, that's where a lot of the fundamentals came from. We left it there so the hive can continue to produce."

the STC wasn't even on Necromunda until M35, when the colony ship Van Saar crashed and the salvagers swarmed over it, eventually becoming the start of the house. but i agree that they could easily have just provided the mechanicus with a bunch of data from the wreck and said that it was all they'd found. and if they'd pulled the STC out and hid it by then, the mechanicus might have just left it at that. especially if the tech data they handed over included most of the stuff they would go on to use as a house.

It's a fun background ploy that plays up how insular, parochial, secretive, dysfunctional and ill-connected the Imperium is. The mental gymnastics of imagining multiple chains of events thwarting any knowledge of the Van Saar's functioning STC leaking out to the Adeptus Mechanicus on a major hiveworld in the Segmentum Solar for fivethousand years is part of the fun.

Much more interesting than old Van Saar background, which on the one hand was good that they were an ordinary tech-clan with nifty overalls, but on the other hand lacked that bit extra. They did not even have cool sci-fi weapons all of their own, for crying out loud, which was always a letdown. Old Van Saar had nice aesthetics, but lacklustre background. The new take is a lot more fun, and allows to play up Dark Age of Technology concepts alongside such things as Leagues of Votann and Men of Iron, which is a huge plus in my book. Power and glory to GW for going this route.

Dare to be bold.

Also, it does raise the hypothetical question: Are there any other tech-clans out there on other Imperial worlds with more or less functioning STCs that have slipped under the Mechanicus' radar for thousands of years? This might not be a unique exception.

One thing worth considering from our point of view rather than just in-world:

There are so many planets in the 40k universe and few have been given as much lore as Necromunda. In the lore, lots of planets are wildly different and have whole swathes of different cultures and technologies. We see a very thin segment of that which is what GW produces as a mini line. If you think of the different tech the Van Saar have, yes it's different to what we see (it has to be to make it clear they are the super tech-gang) but within 40k it's not. The Van Saar know enough to produce some wonder tech but not enough to draw too much attention.

 Segersgia wrote:
-lots of text-

Now I’m going to finally add another little tidbit that is very important.

Just because the Van Saar have evaded Imperial scrutiny doesn’t mean it can’t or won’t ever happen. They have stepped close to that threshold many times. The STC has almost been discovered or destroyed multiple times, and now that its tendrils have dug deep into the Hive, Van Saar can’t attempt to relocate it anymore. Remnants of the Iron Lords have tried to destroy the House, and with the rise of House Aranthus post-great-rift, I think the Van Saar have lost their most useful ally (I need to reread the aranthian succession again to see if they actually mentioned this plot hook). Van Saar lives on a world that would be destroyed 10 times over, but the glacial pace of imperial bureaucracy and the criminal master-plays of House Helmawr (and now House Aranthus) have kept it from Imperial wrath.

I think that about covers it.

Awesome read, learned a LOT about necromunda because of this post!

So I'll ask you considering you know so much; in the case of a full blown admech invasion do you think that van saar would feign loyalty to admech and don their colors, hoping to survive it all?

On STC on other worlds?

That’s entirely possible. As Olthannon said, Necromunda benefits from very special attention to detail as a setting. And we can by no means take it as read other planets won’t have similar oddities.

We’ve known since the very earliest days that with the onset of Old Night, the STC’s, which every colony world had, were lost or destroyed.

But there is a third option. The Stargate option. Some, were quite possibly simply buried. Disconnected from power, and buried.

Which means there are very likely more out there. And because few outside of the upper echelons of Imperial Society will have even heard of an STC, let alone know what they’re supposed to look like? How many more have been recovered and just….shoved in a shed.

 Leopold Helveine wrote:

 Segersgia wrote:
-lots of text-

Now I’m going to finally add another little tidbit that is very important.

Just because the Van Saar have evaded Imperial scrutiny doesn’t mean it can’t or won’t ever happen. They have stepped close to that threshold many times. The STC has almost been discovered or destroyed multiple times, and now that its tendrils have dug deep into the Hive, Van Saar can’t attempt to relocate it anymore. Remnants of the Iron Lords have tried to destroy the House, and with the rise of House Aranthus post-great-rift, I think the Van Saar have lost their most useful ally (I need to reread the aranthian succession again to see if they actually mentioned this plot hook). Van Saar lives on a world that would be destroyed 10 times over, but the glacial pace of imperial bureaucracy and the criminal master-plays of House Helmawr (and now House Aranthus) have kept it from Imperial wrath.

I think that about covers it.

Awesome read, learned a LOT about necromunda because of this post!

So I'll ask you considering you know so much; in the case of a full blown admech invasion do you think that van saar would feign loyalty to admech and don their colors, hoping to survive it all?

I could definitely see some groups within the House changing colours once the Mechanicus figures stuff out, but I don’t see the Van Saar themselves surviving in any way. In fact, I believe that this could lead to a massive war between Mechanicus forces and the entire world of Necromunda.

Of course, how it would be resolved comes down to the writers. I could see a swift campaign with the Mechanicus coming out victorious because the other houses decided to disassociate from the House of Artifice, or I could even see a war that could rival Vraks in its rate of attrition. Or it could be something else entirely.

Side note: I looked back into the Aranthian succession books again. The new Planetary Governor has kept Imperial authorities at arms length, keeping them even further away from the secrets of Necromunda. It also helps that he has Psychic abilities that help him influence his subjects more directly. This includes the Astropathic Choir of Necromunda; manipulating their messaging to essentially have them send an “all-is-well” signal to the rest of the Imperium. With the Indomitus Crusade and Great Rift to be a major focus for the Imperium, they probably won’t look into a planet considered “secure”.

Before van saar come, necromunda is already famous for it’s technology ten thousand years
so in other people‘s eyes，van saar is only another tech house in necromunda，like it’s enemy house hera.

 Segersgia wrote:


I could definitely see some groups within the House changing colours once the Mechanicus figures stuff out, but I don’t see the Van Saar themselves surviving in any way. In fact, I believe that this could lead to a massive war between Mechanicus forces and the entire world of Necromunda.

Of course, how it would be resolved comes down to the writers. I could see a swift campaign with the Mechanicus coming out victorious because the other houses decided to disassociate from the House of Artifice, or I could even see a war that could rival Vraks in its rate of attrition. Or it could be something else entirely.

Side note: I looked back into the Aranthian succession books again. The new Planetary Governor has kept Imperial authorities at arms length, keeping them even further away from the secrets of Necromunda. It also helps that he has Psychic abilities that help him influence his subjects more directly. This includes the Astropathic Choir of Necromunda; manipulating their messaging to essentially have them send an “all-is-well” signal to the rest of the Imperium. With the Indomitus Crusade and Great Rift to be a major focus for the Imperium, they probably won’t look into a planet considered “secure”.

While also waiting for WD mailing me back (ever) about the same question worded slightly more elaborate (with some hypotheticals) your answer suggests it would be a very hard no' on the Van saar ever worming their way out of being the main target no matter what. I wondered wether by feigning loyalty and "assistance" in handing the STC over to the admech they could perhaps stall their stay enough to let the hereteks move in on admech's preoccupation (not that it would doom necromunda any less but still, it would make it a tomb for admech and the STC the same, like a mutually ensured destruction)

Perhaps this theorycraft was a tad too optimistic on Van saar's ..allowances', but it came from the concept that the admech would rather obtain that STC than bombard necromunda and therefor could be ransomed with (in terms of making it easier)..

thoughts?

Otherwise I'm gonna have to think of a new color scheme.. (still held off starting to paint them because of this , maybe something ice-green would look good too, one of the very few colors I haven't used yet in any of my (too many) armies -_- )

By complete STC, if you mean as per the original creation and in full working order as per when humanity first set out to the starts during the golden age then I highly doubt it. I think there has always been a suggestion in the lore that STCs degraded over time and it wasn’t just the men of iron that broke them. If they had a mint condition STC then they would have access to technology of incredible power and function, they would be able to make new void weapons for example, power armour and tactical dreadnought armour. Power fists, storm bolters, grav tech. They would be better equipped than the Dark Angels

So they are either

1. very smart and don’t ouch their luck to much
2. Not smart enough to realise what they have and make the most of it
3. Have a degraded but unique STC machine/DB that doesn’t make anything so fancy that it draws unwanted attention provided they are careful. I think this is most likely.

I think in the new Vottann lore suggest that the ancestor machines maybe an indication that the leagues have maintained golden age tech but even that is deteriorating or going insane