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 PenitentJake wrote:
Here's what the Goons had to say about her:

"Your generic Wych Leader option is the Succubus, who is being subjected to a prolonged experiment to determine whether it’s possible to make a worthwhile melee Character with D1. Maybe, finally? She’s still dirt cheap, and has 7A with ANTI-INFANTRY 3+ and AP-2 (plus PRECISION). This is augmented by SUSTAINED HITS 1 when leading a unit, and a built-in ability for full Hit and Wound re-rolls (for herself only) against Character units, plus a 1CP reward if her unit kills a Character. That is decent – if you throw her at a 4W Character with a 4+ Invulnerable save, she does now have a shot at killing them, and adds a decent weight of output into any Character unit. There are also a couple of Enhancements that make her legitimately scary on top of this slightly improved profile. Finally, her Pain effect is slightly unremarkable, but nice to have – it gives re-rolls to either Advances or Charges. Since you’ll already be Empowering Wyches in the Charge Phase to get their Advance/Charge, that’s effectively a free re-roll for a spend you were already making, so why not."

I don't know if any of that helps you feel any better about her, but it makes me at least curious.

I think its more that the design is all wrong. She's been put in the wrong space of the food chain.
By which I mean they seem to be trying to make "an okay 50 point character". Well why can't she be 100 points, and blend accordingly?

If she is leading a unit of Wyches, and hit a MEQ with attached character, she expects to kill 2.5~ Marines, which is better than the 1, or 1.5 with a pain token, she did before. If you take... Morghanna's curse from the Cult Detachment, which makes her AP-3 and D2, she starts to seriously blend characters and character units.

Tbh I prefer her to the Haemi. She is an obvious boost for a unit of Wyches, who are boosted in this Codex.
The Haemi - weirdly - does about as much damage "on average" as the Succubus. But his variance is much higher due to AP-1 but especially the D3 damage. I hate the idea that you get 2 attacks through hit/wounding/saving - and then you could pop 2 Terminators, or not even kill one.

Not really convinced the Archon has "choices". I mean he does, but I'm struggling to look past the Huskblade and Soul Trap. Mathematically the other two choices are better into 1 wound and 2 wound guys, but I think having the Archon able to maybe get lucky into tougher stuff is going to be more worthwhile.

 PenitentJake wrote:

As for the Succubus: the one damage weapon IS pretty brutal, but there's a lot of other stuff going on with the sheet... Like having Precision is nice... though again, not a great weapon. Here's what the Goons had to say about her:

"Your generic Wych Leader option is the Succubus, who is being subjected to a prolonged experiment to determine whether it’s possible to make a worthwhile melee Character with D1. Maybe, finally? She’s still dirt cheap, and has 7A with ANTI-INFANTRY 3+ and AP-2 (plus PRECISION). This is augmented by SUSTAINED HITS 1 when leading a unit, and a built-in ability for full Hit and Wound re-rolls (for herself only) against Character units, plus a 1CP reward if her unit kills a Character. That is decent – if you throw her at a 4W Character with a 4+ Invulnerable save, she does now have a shot at killing them, and adds a decent weight of output into any Character unit. There are also a couple of Enhancements that make her legitimately scary on top of this slightly improved profile. Finally, her Pain effect is slightly unremarkable, but nice to have – it gives re-rolls to either Advances or Charges. Since you’ll already be Empowering Wyches in the Charge Phase to get their Advance/Charge, that’s effectively a free re-roll for a spend you were already making, so why not."

I don't know if any of that helps you feel any better about her, but it makes me at least curious.

Tyel wrote:
If she is leading a unit of Wyches, and hit a MEQ with attached character, she expects to kill 2.5~ Marines, which is better than the 1, or 1.5 with a pain token, she did before. If you take... Morghanna's curse from the Cult Detachment, which makes her AP-3 and D2, she starts to seriously blend characters and character units.

I think for me it's the same issue I had in 9th - it feels like she's a melee character who is almost entirely reliant on having a particular artefact/enhancement in order to actually be decent in melee. Except it's worse in 10th because there are no generic enhancements. So if I take her in Kabalite Cartel then I have 0 Enhancements to offer her.

It also feels like an issue that could be solved with points - giving her the option of a much better melee weapon (maybe even other wargear as well) that markedly increases her combat potential but also increases her cost by 50-100%. That way you'd have the option of a cheap Succubus as a throwaway HQ or an expensive one who could serve as an Cult-army leader and/or duellist.

As it stands, I guess it's maybe okay as a secondary HQ, but if you want a Succubus to actually lead your army then her stats are pretty depressing.

Tyel wrote:
Tbh I prefer her to the Haemi. She is an obvious boost for a unit of Wyches, who are boosted in this Codex.
The Haemi - weirdly - does about as much damage "on average" as the Succubus. But his variance is much higher due to AP-1 but especially the D3 damage. I hate the idea that you get 2 attacks through hit/wounding/saving - and then you could pop 2 Terminators, or not even kill one.

In terms of melee weapons, I can see where you're coming from. Though I do think the Haemonculus has some useful traits - generating a pain token on a 4+ each turn seems pretty good (though sadly this doesn't stack, so you get diminishing returns if you have the temerity to take multiples of the only Coven HQ in a Coven list ). Not usually a fan of leadership abilities but it might be more useful given that this is one of the ways we can generate Pain Tokens. Also, with Wracks now being 2-wounds apiece, reviving D3+1 seems potentially quite good.

Tyel wrote:
Not really convinced the Archon has "choices". I mean he does, but I'm struggling to look past the Huskblade and Soul Trap. Mathematically the other two choices are better into 1 wound and 2 wound guys, but I think having the Archon able to maybe get lucky into tougher stuff is going to be more worthwhile.

I mean, I was trying to be as generous as possible on that front.

I certainly think the Soul Trap is basically an auto-take, given how laughably bad the pistols are.

However, I do think the melee weapons provide a slightly better spread of options - especially when you account for PfP abilities.

For example, if the Archon is attached to an Incubi unit, then he will gain Devastating Wounds against Infantry whenever the unit is Empowered. This means that the Power Sword will have the same ability as the Huskblade, on top of a higher strength and attacks (albeit still less damage), while the Agoniser will be causing Mortal Wounds on a 3+ against Infantry.

That said, I'll confess I haven't done the math, so it could be that one weapon is just better regardless of PfP abilities.

 vipoid wrote:
However, I do think the melee weapons provide a slightly better spread of options - especially when you account for PfP abilities.

For example, if the Archon is attached to an Incubi unit, then he will gain Devastating Wounds against Infantry whenever the unit is Empowered. This means that the Power Sword will have the same ability as the Huskblade, on top of a higher strength and attacks (albeit still less damage), while the Agoniser will be causing Mortal Wounds on a 3+ against Infantry.

That said, I'll confess I haven't done the math, so it could be that one weapon is just better regardless of PfP abilities.

That's a good point. I'd not thought about how the Incubi effect could spread to the Archon. That would make the Archon with Agonizer blend say Aspect Warriors.
I still think 1 damage is a liability but still.

Anyone got numbers on the Archon?
I can run the math if you’d like.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Anyone got numbers on the Archon?
I can run the math if you’d like.

Its meant to be 80 points?

Its a bit complicated because....

Base profile:

Agonzier: Anti Infantry 3+, 6 Attacks, WS 2+ S3 AP-2 1 Damage.
Husk Blade: Devastating Wounds, 4 Attacks, WS 2+, S3 AP-2 3 Damage
Masted Crafted Power Weapon, 5 Attacks, WS 2+, S4 AP-2 2 Damage.

Soul Trap. Gain +1 Attack and +1 S. The First time you kill an enemy model, after that set of attacks is resolved, gain an additional +1 Attack and +1 S.

For a Pain Point you can activate hatred eternal, which lets you reroll hits in the shooting or assault phase for the Archon and his unit.
Hand of the Archon's pain ability gives lethal hits and precision.
Incubi give their unit Devastating Wounds vs infantry with a pain token, which would spread to the Archon.
Basic Kabalites let you reroll 1s to wound, or all wounds if on an objective, in the shooting or fighting phase.

Tyel wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Anyone got numbers on the Archon?
I can run the math if you’d like.

Its meant to be 80 points?

Its a bit complicated because....

Base profile:

Agonzier: Anti Infantry 3+, 6 Attacks, WS 2+ S3 AP-2 1 Damage.
Husk Blade: Devastating Wounds, 4 Attacks, WS 2+, S3 AP-2 3 Damage
Masted Crafted Power Weapon, 5 Attacks, WS 2+, S4 AP-2 2 Damage.

Soul Trap. Gain +1 Attack and +1 S. The First time you kill an enemy model, after that set of attacks is resolved, gain an additional +1 Attack and +1 S.

For a Pain Point you can activate hatred eternal, which lets you reroll hits in the shooting or assault phase for the Archon and his unit.
Hand of the Archon's pain ability gives lethal hits and precision.
Incubi give their unit Devastating Wounds vs infantry with a pain token, which would spread to the Archon.
Basic Kabalites let you reroll 1s to wound, or all wounds if on an objective, in the shooting or fighting phase.

Okay, math.

Against MEQ, assuming Soul Trap is equipped.

Agoniser
35/6 hits, 35/9 wounds, 70/27 failed saves, 1 dead MEQ and maybe wound another
Soul Trap twice ups that to 20/3 hits, 40/9 wounds, 80/27 failed saves, 1.5 dead MEQ

Husk Blade
25/6 hits, 25/18 wounds and 25/36 DevWounds, 25/27 failed saves, for 175/108 instances of damage, 1.62 dead MEQ.
Soul Trap twice ups that to 5 hits, 5/2 wounds and 5/6 DevWounds, 5/3 failed saves, for 5/2 instances of damage, 2.5 dead MEQ.

Power Weapon
5 hits, 10/3 wounds, 20/9 failed saves, 2.22 dead MEQ.
Soul Trap twice ups that to 35/6 hits, 35/9 wounds, 70/27 failed saves, 2.59 dead MEQs

Against TEQ...

Agoniser
Same numbers until saves. So 35/9 or 40/9 wounds, for 35/18 or 40/18 failed saves. Will not kill a TEQ without a lotta luck.

Husk Blade
25/6 hits, 25/36 wounds and DevWounds, 25/72 failed saves, 25/24 instances of damage and 1 dead TEQ
Soul Trap twice ups that to 5 hits, 5/3 wounds and 5/6 DevWounds, 5/6 failed saves, 5/3 instances of damage, likely to kill 2 TEQ but might not

Power Weapon
5 hits, 5/2 wounds, 5/4 failed saves, unlikely to kill a TEQ
Soul Trap twice ups that to 35/6 hits, 35/9 wounds, 35/18 failed saves, 1 dead TEQ

For the various boosts...

Reroll hits is x7/6 damage, since it all hits on a 2+.
Lethal Hits helps the worse you wound, so Agoniser is right out as good. Precision is situational, but very good in that situation.
RR1s to-wound is x7/6 no matter what. RRAll to-wound helps more the worse your initial wound roll, favoring the Husk Blade above all else.
DevWounds is the only thing that can potentially sway the math...

It's worth a LOT on an Agoniser, increasing damage by a factor of 1.5 against MEQ and 2 against TEQ. However, that still leaves it at, at best, 4 wounds to a TEQ squad.

What about the Power Weapon?
Against MEQ, increases damage to 2.5 dead (Soul Trap) and 2.92 dead (Soul Trap twice).
Against TEQ, 5/3 instances of damage, so probably kill a TEQ (Soul Trap) and kills one, wounds a second down to one wound left (Soul Trap twice).

Verdict?
Yeah, Husk Blade is the best.

 JNAProductions wrote:

I can run the math if you’d like.

When our numbers get too fat, I always worry they'll end up with heart disease or diabetes. I'm glad we've got good people like you who can take them for a run when they need it.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Verdict?
Yeah, Husk Blade is the best.

So what you're telling me is that my classic metal Archon who is modeled with a huskblade and soul trap is perfectly fine as-is?

I think this is sort of the issue of characters, but there's also the additional cost.

I mean I'm trying to work up to the idea of the Archon with Agonizer+5 Incubi into certain targets.
But... you could just take 10 Incubi. Sure there's the issues of a bigger footprint. But equally you gain 15 WS3+ S5 AP-2 2 damage attacks, devastating wounds, and the chance for +1 to hit if they fail a battleshock test which they have to take at the start of the fight phase.

Then there's 10 Incubi plus an Archon, but that feels like overkill - and at 260 points or something, getting a bit meaty for my MSU preferences. Not much point massively overkilling an 80-100 point unit then being shot to bits next turn.

In my experience, (in pre-codex games), the nice thing about the 10 + archon squad is that the extra bodies mean you can get overwatched or take some retalitory shooting and have a decent chance of still having enough survivors on the following turn to do decent damage again. Plus, your opening charge can be against a particularly beefy enemy unit; you don't have to spend multiple turns trying to whittle that target down before sending something in. But I do get the concern about too many eggs in one basket.

What are people thinking about the new hellions? A reactive move on them seems kind of pointless for the way I want to use them, especially when it's just d6". The reactive move is great on my termagants or rangers because those units are dirt cheap, can disappear through walls to hide from shooting, and are generally being used to let them speed bump more effectively. Hellions (still) being mounted instead of infantry means that you can neither disappear through a wall defensively nor easily move hellions up the field to act as a screening/speed bump unit in the first place. And I'm guessing they're probably expensive enough that that wouldn't be your preferred use for them anyway.

It almost feels like they'd have been better off getting the infantry keyword and no special rule at all. Or am I missing something?

Aside, has anyone noticed how slow our infantry units have become?

We used to be a fast army, yet now our Archon, Incubi, Kabalites etc. are a piddling 1" faster than a Space Marine. And of course Fleet of Foot is long gone.

Tyel wrote:
I think this is sort of the issue of characters, but there's also the additional cost.

I mean I'm trying to work up to the idea of the Archon with Agonizer+5 Incubi into certain targets.
But... you could just take 10 Incubi. Sure there's the issues of a bigger footprint. But equally you gain 15 WS3+ S5 AP-2 2 damage attacks, devastating wounds, and the chance for +1 to hit if they fail a battleshock test which they have to take at the start of the fight phase.

With the Archon, you do get a 2-for-1 with the Pain abilities, so both Archon and the Incubi will be rerolling all hit rolls, and the entire unit will have Devastating Wounds.

Not sure it changes the balance much, but it's something.

Regardless, I'd be inclined to agree. Personally, I'd prefer 2 units of 5 Incubi. Granted, you can't Empower the entire unit that way, but it means you can split them up and you get 2 Klaivexes (so an extra wound and more attacks).

Also, if I was going to include a character with them, it's hard to ignore that Drazhar is only 10pts more than an Archon but is both more durable and much better in combat.

 Wyldhunt wrote:

What are people thinking about the new hellions? A reactive move on them seems kind of pointless for the way I want to use them, especially when it's just d6". The reactive move is great on my termagants or rangers because those units are dirt cheap, can disappear through walls to hide from shooting, and are generally being used to let them speed bump more effectively. Hellions (still) being mounted instead of infantry means that you can neither disappear through a wall defensively nor easily move hellions up the field to act as a screening/speed bump unit in the first place. And I'm guessing they're probably expensive enough that that wouldn't be your preferred use for them anyway.

It almost feels like they'd have been better off getting the infantry keyword and no special rule at all. Or am I missing something?

At a glance, Hellions seem decent. When Empowered, a unit of 10 is putting out 40 S5 AP-1 D2 attacks with +1 to wound, which is enough to wipe out an entire 10-man Marine unit (assuming no invulnerable saves or FNP).

That said, they are quite pricey and probably won't survive long with just a 4+/6++ save, even with 2 wounds.

And yeah, their d6" move ability seems rather out of place. I think it would make more sense on Assault Scourges.

So just looking through the faction pack and checking out the legends cards; I'm happy to see they've been updated with pain abilities so they will be compatible with the dex when it drops. I had a downloaded copy of the original Index, but my computer fied this week and I haven't checked my backups, so I xan't compare the new cards to the originals, but the new cards look good.

 PenitentJake wrote:
So just looking through the faction pack and checking out the legends cards; I'm happy to see they've been updated with pain abilities so they will be compatible with the dex when it drops. I had a downloaded copy of the original Index, but my computer fied this week and I haven't checked my backups, so I xan't compare the new cards to the originals, but the new cards look good.

Now I want to field an Archon leading a Court of the Archon, attached to a Hand of the Archon, all riding around in a Tantalus.

 BorderCountess wrote:

 PenitentJake wrote:
So just looking through the faction pack and checking out the legends cards; I'm happy to see they've been updated with pain abilities so they will be compatible with the dex when it drops. I had a downloaded copy of the original Index, but my computer fied this week and I haven't checked my backups, so I xan't compare the new cards to the originals, but the new cards look good.

Now I want to field an Archon leading a Court of the Archon, attached to a Hand of the Archon, all riding around in a Tantalus.

DO IT!
Remind people that Legends are still a thing.
And post pics because I've never seen a Tantalus on the board.

I will definitely field my Court and Beasts, but I never bought a Tantalus; I hesitated because expensive forgworld resin... But then it just disappeared and I kinda regret not getting one while I had the chance.

For what you got, it was a bit more reasonably priced than some of the other FW stuff.

In terms of the Kabal Cartel, any thoughts about what to do with the Warlord Archon?

They have to be on the field in order to select a new bounty (so can't be in deep strike or even in a Transport).

Do you think it's better to keep them at the back of the field, or just sod it and put them with Incubi?

 PenitentJake wrote:
I never bought a Tantalus; I hesitated because expensive forgworld resin... But then it just disappeared and I kinda regret not getting one while I had the chance.

Same.

But, I'm sure I can find a good proxy somewhere, even if I have to print it myself.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 vipoid wrote:
In terms of the Kabal Cartel, any thoughts about what to do with the Warlord Archon?

They have to be on the field in order to select a new bounty (so can't be in deep strike or even in a Transport).

Do you think it's better to keep them at the back of the field, or just sod it and put them with Incubi?

Either works, I guess. You could stick them with a Hand of the Archon and park them all in the backfield with a 5++ and damage negation, or let them go murder-happy with the Incubi.

The real key is - unless you really need/want to kill a character - pick some unimportant, hidden, or nigh-unkillable unit as your contract and then ignore it for as long as possible.

 PenitentJake wrote:
I will definitely field my Court and Beasts, but I never bought a Tantalus; I hesitated because expensive forgworld resin... But then it just disappeared and I kinda regret not getting one while I had the chance.

For what you got, it was a bit more reasonably priced than some of the other FW stuff.

Sadly I missed the used one that passed through my local shop a few months ago.
They took it in in trade, & one of the guys sent me a Pic before putting it in the case.
But by the time I got there that afternoon to take an in-person look at it? Someone else had snapped it up. :(

 BorderCountess wrote:

Either works, I guess. You could stick them with a Hand of the Archon and park them all in the backfield with a 5++ and damage negation, or let them go murder-happy with the Incubi.

The real key is - unless you really need/want to kill a character - pick some unimportant, hidden, or nigh-unkillable unit as your contract and then ignore it for as long as possible.

Why ignore your target, though?

Unless your Warlord is dead/off the table, then it's surely better to kill your target (netting you 3 Pain Tokens) and then pick another target to reset the bonus?

 vipoid wrote:

 BorderCountess wrote:

Either works, I guess. You could stick them with a Hand of the Archon and park them all in the backfield with a 5++ and damage negation, or let them go murder-happy with the Incubi.

The real key is - unless you really need/want to kill a character - pick some unimportant, hidden, or nigh-unkillable unit as your contract and then ignore it for as long as possible.

Why ignore your target, though?

Unless your Warlord is dead/off the table, then it's surely better to kill your target (netting you 3 Pain Tokens) and then pick another target to reset the bonus?

I think I'll just have my warlord archon join a unit of kabilites and have him hang out with 5 kabs with anti-infantry weaponry on my home objective (hopefully in sight of another objective in no mans land. The other five jump in a venom and go do their thing. Between his pain token reroll and the kabs pain token rerolls I think this unit will be a great back field deterrent, and hopefully make my opponent make hard choice for advancing up the middle.

Fluff wise it doesn't seem all that awesome that our leader is hanging in the back... but what else you going to do?

Kind of depends on the leader. Archons hanging in the back to watch the minions do the hard work is pretty on-brand for them unless they're the sort that likes to show off their melee prowess. Doubly true for haemis who might be treating this raid as more of a shopping excursion or a chance to watch their creations in the field rather than trying to jab the enemy themselves.

The "Take Credit" Agenda is gone, but it was always funny- I used it in the last game I played, sending in the other characters and units first. The Wyches demonstrated superiority, and the Archon claimed credit.

Glad I got to play that Agenda before it disappeared with the new dex. I haven't done any post-game crusade rolls yet- I'll do that using the new dex.

 Wyldhunt wrote:
Kind of depends on the leader. Archons hanging in the back to watch the minions do the hard work is pretty on-brand for them unless they're the sort that likes to show off their melee prowess. Doubly true for haemis who might be treating this raid as more of a shopping excursion or a chance to watch their creations in the field rather than trying to jab the enemy themselves.

Yeah, I don't think this is especially out of character for an Archon.

Though I would say that the limited options for which units he can join feels clunky. As does the fact he can't use the ability while in a Transport (seriously, how is this still an issue for GW's rule writers? ).

Still, nice that there's actually a functional reason for him to sit back and watch, rather than just because he's rubbish in combat.

Got the dex today, so there's a fair amount to do for the campaign: I have to write up a summary of battle two and carry the XP totals and kill tallies, then I need to do the same for battle three... But then I need to do the post-battle sequence- I waited for the new book to do it.

Then I have to create my antagonists- it's weird, because before Rival Lord rules existed, I had forces of Slaanesh skulking in the splinter realm. I can't undo that, so those forces are there, but I steal want to generate the full three antagonists, because I might be able to force them to join me if I can defeat them.

And all of that on top of a painting challenge that's due Friday!

I just realized, at least for the Wych Cult detachment...

You literally CANNOT take all four Enhancements. They only go on Succubi, and you're limited to 3 of those.

 JNAProductions wrote:
I just realized, at least for the Wych Cult detachment...

You literally CANNOT take all four Enhancements. They only go on Succubi, and you're limited to 3 of those.

Pretty sure we've always been limited to three total Enhancements in army building...

 BorderCountess wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
I just realized, at least for the Wych Cult detachment...

You literally CANNOT take all four Enhancements. They only go on Succubi, and you're limited to 3 of those.

Pretty sure we've always been limited to three total Enhancements in army building...

If the only requirement was Drukhari Character on any one enhancement, it would be possible to take all four- if three were for Archons, you can take three and the give the Drukhari Character one to either a Haemonculus or Succubus.

I'm away from my dex right now, so I can't check the other detachments, but as long as each of them includes at least one that can be taken by any Drukhari Character, you should be able to shoehorn all four of them in. The Realspace Raider may have one for an Archon, one for a Succubus and one for a Haemonculus since that's sort of the theme.

It gets really fun if you're a Crusader, because there's an requisition that allows you to make an Enhancement permanent... So you can actually get away with more than 4 if you think its worth it... And usually it isn't: more units is almost always the better value for your points.

 PenitentJake wrote:

If the only requirement was Drukhari Character on any one enhancement, it would be possible to take all four- if three were for Archons, you can take three and the give the Drukhari Character one to either a Haemonculus or Succubus.

I'm away from my dex right now, so I can't check the other detachments, but as long as each of them includes at least one that can be taken by any Drukhari Character, you should be able to shoehorn all four of them in. The Realspace Raider may have one for an Archon, one for a Succubus and one for a Haemonculus since that's sort of the theme.

The point is that the core rules only allow you to take 3 enhancements. Unless this is superseded somewhere.

Nope, it's not.
It's just a rule I never learned. My bad!

 PenitentJake wrote:
It gets really fun if you're a Crusader, because there's an requisition that allows you to make an Enhancement permanent... So you can actually get away with more than 4 if you think its worth it... And usually it isn't: more units is almost always the better value for your points.

That's not quite how it works with Crusade. In Crusade, a character can ONLY have an Enhancement through use of the requisition. And aside from using it on a single character at the creation of your Order of Battle, the only time you can use it is when a character earns a Battle Honor (and it's done in place of said Battle Honor).