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chaos0xomega wrote:
Surw, but the shooty one of those units has plas/melta access anyway, replacing it w blastmaster/sonic blaster/doom siren would have been thematically appropriate and stayed true to how the army plays.

I think the bolded part is where the contention is. GW have moved away from EC being defined by Noise Marines, which is different to how DG are "defined" by Plague Marines, TS by Rubrics and WE by Berzerkers. I think it fits thematically since Slaanesh is all about the full range of experiences, not pigeon-holing yourself into one specific type of experience. So making Noise Marines just one facet of that seems fine to me.

Noise Marines are the ONLY facet of that...
The rest of the Pink Marine units are just re-skins of genric units.

 Lord Damocles wrote:
Noise Marines are the ONLY facet of that...
The rest of the Pink Marine units are just re-skins of genric units.

I'm not up on Chaos armies... so please bare with me.

It seems to me that the new Codex gave the EC a certain playstyle that varied from how they used to be played, am I correct in this assumption?

Besides the removal of armored vehicles and long range anti-tank, what exactly is different in the play style of the new EC and their older playstlye?

 Lathe Biosas wrote:

 Lord Damocles wrote:
Noise Marines are the ONLY facet of that...
The rest of the Pink Marine units are just re-skins of genric units.

I'm not up on Chaos armies... so please bare with me.

It seems to me that the new Codex gave the EC a certain playstyle that varied from how they used to be played, am I correct in this assumption?

Besides the removal of armored vehicles and long range anti-tank, what exactly is different in the play style of the new EC and their older playstlye?

This is the first time EC have had a dedicated codex. Prior to that, they were just part of the CSM codex so could field anything from that that wasn't marked as one of the other chaos gods - khorne berserkers, rubric marines, and so on. So it's considerably more limited - but on par with what happened with every other god-aligned faction.

In 10e playstyle is dictated more by your detachment than it is by your unit and weapons profiles. I think arguments that EC units needed to be a certain way because of "playstyle changes" are grasping at straws.

It also doesn't help that the new EC units translate back into existing CSM units for the most part. Tormentors and Infractors are very easily substituted for Legionaries, and Flawless Blades can easily be Possessed. Noise Marines can be taken as Cult units.
So the major benefit to having their own Codex is the army/detachment rules, and special characters. The major loss is the brutal culling of units outside a very narrow theme. Even Daemons are easier to ally into CSM as they don't limit your detachment choices.

I think a CSM-based army using EC models is going to be extremely popular and painted as a Slaaneshii warband rather than EC-proper.

Crispy78 wrote:

 Lathe Biosas wrote:

 Lord Damocles wrote:
Noise Marines are the ONLY facet of that...
The rest of the Pink Marine units are just re-skins of genric units.

I'm not up on Chaos armies... so please bare with me.

It seems to me that the new Codex gave the EC a certain playstyle that varied from how they used to be played, am I correct in this assumption?

Besides the removal of armored vehicles and long range anti-tank, what exactly is different in the play style of the new EC and their older playstlye?

This is the first time EC have had a dedicated codex. Prior to that, they were just part of the CSM codex so could field anything from that that wasn't marked as one of the other chaos gods - khorne berserkers, rubric marines, and so on. So it's considerably more limited - but on par with what happened with every other god-aligned faction.

OK, so they've gone from generic "pink CSM" to a focused themed army... that's a lot cooler than what I was lead to believe.

Specialization always stings, because you lose some models in the process.

When the Deathwatch RPG had come out I converted a bunch of squads for use in the RPG, including Scout Armor.

I was disappointed when I couldn't use Scouts in a regular game of 40k, but I was happy that the Deathwatch were a thing and not just generic Space Marines with a cool shoulderpad.

I wish they would do this with the Word Bearers and Alpha Legion.

"I think a CSM-based army using EC models is going to be extremely popular and painted as a Slaaneshii warband rather than EC-proper."

I agree, that may be where I am headed with my figures… We shall see.

Hopefully some changes will come out with addenda

chaos0xomega wrote:In 10e playstyle is dictated more by your detachment than it is by your unit and weapons profiles. I think arguments that EC units needed to be a certain way because of "playstyle changes" are grasping at straws.

I don't think that's true when the army has so few datasheets. The unit stats and abilities have much more impact on playstyle in a smaller army like EC than they do in something like SM.

Mozzamanx wrote:It also doesn't help that the new EC units translate back into existing CSM units for the most part. Tormentors and Infractors are very easily substituted for Legionaries, and Flawless Blades can easily be Possessed. Noise Marines can be taken as Cult units.
So the major benefit to having their own Codex is the army/detachment rules, and special characters. The major loss is the brutal culling of units outside a very narrow theme. Even Daemons are easier to ally into CSM as they don't limit your detachment choices.

I think a CSM-based army using EC models is going to be extremely popular and painted as a Slaaneshii warband rather than EC-proper.

That's a very superficial view of the army. Yes, Tormentors and Infractors can sort of stand in for Legionaries, but they do lack some of the things that Legionaries have, like extra melee weapons or heavy weapons in general. In terms of gameplay specifics they operate very differently to Legionaries. Along with the army rule it makes them a very different style of army.

Slipspace wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:In 10e playstyle is dictated more by your detachment than it is by your unit and weapons profiles. I think arguments that EC units needed to be a certain way because of "playstyle changes" are grasping at straws.

I don't think that's true when the army has so few datasheets. The unit stats and abilities have much more impact on playstyle in a smaller army like EC than they do in something like SM.

Agreed. Look at Thousand Sons, who only have two different datasheets for Astartes units. You get shooting, and shooting in Terminator armor.

 BorderCountess wrote:

Slipspace wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:In 10e playstyle is dictated more by your detachment than it is by your unit and weapons profiles. I think arguments that EC units needed to be a certain way because of "playstyle changes" are grasping at straws.

I don't think that's true when the army has so few datasheets. The unit stats and abilities have much more impact on playstyle in a smaller army like EC than they do in something like SM.

Agreed. Look at Thousand Sons, who only have two different datasheets for Astartes units. You get shooting, and shooting in Terminator armor.

Huh. I was under the impression that the Chaos factions were just supplements to the Chaos Space Marine Codex.

Nope, separate codex. What's in that is all you get.

Nope, and that is the issue. They are completely separate Codexes from which the Chaos Codex Space Marines can pull 1 unit from each (Noise Marines, Khorne Berserkers, Rubric Marines, and Plague Marines).

The problem is outside of limited units, each of the Cult Codexes is left drawing from common C:CSM units and the number of such units is shrinking as time goes by. That leave each Codex trying to get by on a small unit of unique units.

As noted, Codex Thousand Sons is highly lacking in unique units. Outside of characters, you have Rubric Marines, Scarab Occult Terminators, Tzanngor units ported from AOS, and motor pool from C:CSM.

Codex World Eaters suffers from a high degree of sameness. Outside of characters and the motor pool , you have Khorne Berserkers, Eightbound (Aka Berserkers+), Exalted Eightbound (Aka Berserkers++), Jackels (Khornish Cultist), WE Terminators, and Chaos Spawn.

Then we have Codex Emperor's Children. Despite being a new Codex, it has more variety that the two above until you hit the stunted motor pool options (Rhino, Land Raider, Heldrake, and Maulerfiend). Non-Character units are Flawless Blades (elite fighty), Tormentors (shooty Battleline), Infractors (fighty Battleline), Noise Marines (elite shooty), Terminators, and Chaos Spawn.

Finally, there is the Death Guard. While the Thousand Sons are the oldest in plastic, the Death Guard have the most kits. Non-Characters are Plague Marines, Poxwalkers, Blightlord Terminators, Deathshroud Terminators, Chaos Spawn, Foetid Bloat-drone, Myphitic Blight-haulers, Plagueburst Crawlers, and most of the CSM motor pool.

So while EC are not the best fleshed out Cult Army, they aren't the worst either.

OK.that makes the pain a little more understandable.

Thank you for explaining it to me.

I'm baffled as to why the Flawless Blades don't have the precision rule. They're are the one unit that I would think would be most likely to have it.

 ArcaneHorror wrote:
I'm baffled as to why the Flawless Blades don't have the precision rule. They're are the one unit that I would think would be most likely to have it.

I haven't had the chance to deep-dive their lore, but I know they're possessed-lite. It may be that they're not picky about who/what they're slicing into little pieces.

 BorderCountess wrote:

Slipspace wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:In 10e playstyle is dictated more by your detachment than it is by your unit and weapons profiles. I think arguments that EC units needed to be a certain way because of "playstyle changes" are grasping at straws.

I don't think that's true when the army has so few datasheets. The unit stats and abilities have much more impact on playstyle in a smaller army like EC than they do in something like SM.

Agreed. Look at Thousand Sons, who only have two different datasheets for Astartes units. You get shooting, and shooting in Terminator armor.

Fluff wise, what else do they have?

 Lathe Biosas wrote:

 BorderCountess wrote:

Slipspace wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:In 10e playstyle is dictated more by your detachment than it is by your unit and weapons profiles. I think arguments that EC units needed to be a certain way because of "playstyle changes" are grasping at straws.

I don't think that's true when the army has so few datasheets. The unit stats and abilities have much more impact on playstyle in a smaller army like EC than they do in something like SM.

Agreed. Look at Thousand Sons, who only have two different datasheets for Astartes units. You get shooting, and shooting in Terminator armor.

Fluff wise, what else do they have?

Well, they used to have Possessed, Chosen, and Obliterators...

It would just be nice to have some more unique units, like a sorcerer dreadnought, the battle automata, or a Rubric variant of the Khenetai Occult.

 BorderCountess wrote:
It would just be nice to have some more unique units, like a sorcerer dreadnought, the battle automata, or a Rubric variant of the Khenetai Occult.

Wasn't there a rumor of Battle-Automata, or was it for 30k?

Theres rumors of 40k battle automata coming w the new TS book

It will be there as surely as the sonic dreadnaught is in the EC codex. Oh, wait...

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
It will be there as surely as the sonic dreadnaught is in the EC codex. Oh, wait...

I mean nobody expected a sonic dreadnought, there's strong rumours of TSons automata. So bit of a poor point to make.

 BorderCountess wrote:

 ArcaneHorror wrote:
I'm baffled as to why the Flawless Blades don't have the precision rule. They're are the one unit that I would think would be most likely to have it.

I haven't had the chance to deep-dive their lore, but I know they're possessed-lite. It may be that they're not picky about who/what they're slicing into little pieces.

From what I remember from the reveal posts on WHC, aren't they almost the opposite of possessed - they'll take the gifts of Chaos, but are too proud to share their body with a Daemon?

 Dysartes wrote:

 BorderCountess wrote:

 ArcaneHorror wrote:
I'm baffled as to why the Flawless Blades don't have the precision rule. They're are the one unit that I would think would be most likely to have it.

I haven't had the chance to deep-dive their lore, but I know they're possessed-lite. It may be that they're not picky about who/what they're slicing into little pieces.

From what I remember from the reveal posts on WHC, aren't they almost the opposite of possessed - they'll take the gifts of Chaos, but are too proud to share their body with a Daemon?

My understanding is that they're willing to share their body, but they refuse to give up control.

Sad to say that the more I hear about the EC book, the less excited I am for it. I just wanted some cool mechanics for like, drugs and overlapping sonic weapon frequencies the ability to bring my modest Slaaneshi daemon collection along for the ride.

But it sounds like they just kind of ripped out all the anti-tank gun platforms, made my old noise marine loadouts illegal (no doom sirens on champions), and using my daemons will mean I don't get to use any of the other detachments in the book...?

That one detachment allows for 50% demons, but from a limited pool.

The core demon rules allow for any Chaos army to take 25% demons from the whole index - and, hilariously, at the moment Emperor's Children can take ANY demons (unless Lucius is your warlord, then you're restricted to Slaanesh only).

 BorderCountess wrote:

 Dysartes wrote:

 BorderCountess wrote:

 ArcaneHorror wrote:
I'm baffled as to why the Flawless Blades don't have the precision rule. They're are the one unit that I would think would be most likely to have it.

I haven't had the chance to deep-dive their lore, but I know they're possessed-lite. It may be that they're not picky about who/what they're slicing into little pieces.

From what I remember from the reveal posts on WHC, aren't they almost the opposite of possessed - they'll take the gifts of Chaos, but are too proud to share their body with a Daemon?

My understanding is that they're willing to share their body, but they refuse to give up control.

So, I went back to the LVO article, despite hearing the voice of xkcd in the back of my head, and this is what it says there:
"Their hideous appearance echoes the daemons of the Dark Prince whose gifts they readily accept, though they aren’t possessed like lesser Heretic Astartes – rather, they are far too selfish to share their flesh with anyone save their own perfect form."

I fully accept this may end up being presented differently in the 'dex, but that's what was said at the time.

It's a very broad statement that could be interpreted many ways and one where the reality of the setting might not be a hard defined situation but one of variable situations based on the individual


eg they could be accepting gifts and not allowing the demon in at all with the demon constantly tempting them to go further and showering them with more gifts;

Or perhaps they found a way to let demons fight over them; each one offering boons to upstage the other in the hope that their gift is the one that lets them into the human body

Or the demon is part of them, but held in control or otherwise coming to a different agreement. So instead of the demon taking over, the human is still in control of their body (or at least thinks they are)

 BorderCountess wrote:

 ArcaneHorror wrote:
I'm baffled as to why the Flawless Blades don't have the precision rule. They're are the one unit that I would think would be most likely to have it.

I haven't had the chance to deep-dive their lore, but I know they're possessed-lite. It may be that they're not picky about who/what they're slicing into little pieces.

That's a possibility, though given their name, I would guess that they would have the ability to target anyone they want to in combat.