Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Once played a doubles tournament playing Khorne Daemonkin with my friend running Imperial Guard Tank Corps + a single Tyranid Prime because that was legal in those days (Unbound armies away with ye).

Was at the local GW where one of the staffers was unreasonably annoyed that not only were we having fun playing very dumb armies with very dumb strategies, but that we were doing quite well.

 Tyran wrote:
Kinda hard to reinforce that region when the industrial hearth of that region, Forge World Gryphonne IV, was lost in the process. Nor I would call losing a Major Forge World plus who knows how many other worlds, countless warships and trillions of lives "sufficiently one sided losses". It wasn't a free action, IoM did suffer crippling loses in the process.

And while Leviathan was diverted, now it has almost won Octarius and is even stronger than it used to be and thus the forces needed to reinforce the region are even greater. Kryptman successfully bought time but at the cost of weakening the IoM in the region and eventually an even stronger Leviathan and the rest of the Inquisition is really wondering if it was worth it.

It's not like the Imperium had any other choice. Nobody seemed to have any other viable alternative plans to stop Leviathan, which analysis showed to be making a path for Terra. Imperial fleets were battered and needed time to repair, rearm, and recover losses. The Imperium couldn't brute force it as analysis showed they would lose.

Precious time was what the Imperium gained. Though the Imperium did not seem to use it wisely, luck would have it that Guilliman would return in that time. If Kryptman had not done his gambit, it is possible that Terra would have been attacked already and maybe even fallen (Of course IRL I know GW would never allow that, but within the 40k universe it is possible).

Depends how truly flexible their genetics is.

We know that you can use warp energy to heal, or augment your physiology so at some level warp energy to realspace energy conversion is possible. Biomancy allows you to do a lot of permanent things to biology.

If the Tyranids were able to evolve a bio mantic bio form that could consume warp energy and convert it. They could potentially eat daemons.

As for their obsession with the thin scum of carbon on planets it seems clear that they're only finishing for unique genes. There are more hydro carbons on gas giants then the thin eco sphere of earth. Raw materials are not scarce.

Unique genetic combinations though, are. You could say that the hive Mind is like a modern generative AI, it can only recombine what it's been fed, it can't invent anything.

So it goes looking for new training libraries to assimilate in order to produce new novel products.

The biomass of a planet is far too energy intensive to consume for the amount you actually get, for it not to provide a value beyond pure chemical resources.

I’m afraid I’m going to present the undisprovable.

See those Hive Fleets attacking Daemon Worlds? I present to you the notion that they may very well be the playground of as yet otherwise unseen Bioconstructs. One so highly specialised for that task they’re simply not seen on battlefields where mortal eyes likely to compile a report might record them.

Consider a beasty that might look like a hybrid between the Toxicrene (lots of chitin tipped wriggly tentacles) and a Maleceptor. The tentacles impale Daemons, the linked Massively Psychic Massive Brain drains the psychic whatever it is that creates the form, before literally vomiting that power back out at more distant foes.

I’d name that the Ectovore.

Pretty much every faction has hundreds to thousands of units that we will never ever see in the tabletop and which we won't hear about in lore or artwork (esp these days) because they will never get a model.

There are scores of Tyranid evolutions we never see or which only get created on a single world; there are masses of Imperial tank variations and adaptions. Whole Eldar Aspect Warrior casts; heck chaos demons don't even have fixed forms in the first place.



There are loads of things we just never see. GW has the lore approach of "we never talk about x until we make a model of x then we talk about it as if its always been"

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
I’m afraid I’m going to present the undisprovable.

See those Hive Fleets attacking Daemon Worlds? I present to you the notion that they may very well be the playground of as yet otherwise unseen Bioconstructs. One so highly specialised for that task they’re simply not seen on battlefields where mortal eyes likely to compile a report might record them.

Consider a beasty that might look like a hybrid between the Toxicrene (lots of chitin tipped wriggly tentacles) and a Maleceptor. The tentacles impale Daemons, the linked Massively Psychic Massive Brain drains the psychic whatever it is that creates the form, before literally vomiting that power back out at more distant foes.

I’d name that the Ectovore.

Sounds a lot like the Psychophage, which I suspect was just such a construct meant to deal with highly psychic races like Eldar and psychic constructs like daemons.

Another radical thought?

The Hive Mind, whilst comprised of every Tyranid organism is also separate from them. And we know it must have a seriously powerful presence in the Warp.

What if it’s trying to figure out whether it can manifest Daemons of its own? Imagine if the billions of lesser combat organisms like Gaunts could just be conjured into being. In their often role of simply being cannon fodder to exhaust the enemy, they’d arguably be more resource efficient.

Leave the Leader Bugs as flesh and blood (or, Y’know, chitin and ichor or what have you), and give them their regular, able to independently problem solve minds. Just commanding wave after wave of conjured ickle bugs.

From what I can work out Tyranids can't manifest demons of their own. The way the Hive Mind interacts with the Warp is as alien to the Warp as the Tyranids are to the physical galaxy.

They clearly can use it to manifest psychic powers and some element of the Hive Mind clearly exists within the Warp.

But we are never given a clear enough impression of how it all works. We only see how other races can see the Shadow in the Warp and how Hive Fleets and Genestealer Cults can be both fully separate and fully united with the Hive Mind at the same time. Indeed its strange that Tyranids can be fully separated from it at one moment and then fully united at another without any apparent conflict of interest. Even if those Tyranids have been isolated for generations (Cults it should be noted, only get uprisings in their lower-ranks. The top totally infested/purestrain don't resist the invasion nor diving into the Digestion pools after its all over)

Going back to Rogue Trader and the Realms of Chaos again? Daemons are described as the merest sliver of the God’s consciousness split off, given form and purpose.

Only the most powerful can defy the God’s will - and even then only to the extent of semi-independent action. And the God can subsume any of its Daemons back into itself at any time.

Of course, we’ve a good few decades of background development since then, so I’m not presenting it as the ultimate authority.

But, it does seem to match how the Hive Mind operates in fleshy form. Each of its creatures is given some instinct, so it doesn’t need to be under the immediate direction of the synaptic web to be trouble for the enemy. And once in the synaptic web, the Hive Mind has no trouble making them act entirely in conflict with that instinct.

To use a deliberate silly example? If the Hive Mind wanted to host a tea party? Every single organism would be a willing participant with impeccable manners.

Each creature, like each Daemon, is a part of the whole. Its experiences feedback to the parent. So, from a certain viewpoint, the only real difference is what they’re made out of. Warp Stuff, or Biomass.

That then brings up my favourite unanswerable question about the Hive Mind - just how intelligent is it really? Oh it can problem solve, no doubt about that. But can it perform abstract thought? Such as making Things Of Its Own, out of Warp Stuff in the first place?

Warp Gods are creatures born of the Warp that feed upon the souls and emotions of the living that travel to the Warp upon death (or corruption).


My impression is that the Hive Mind is a creature born of the unity of Tyranids within reality, which then transposes into the Warp. So unlike a Warp God which is a separate thinking entity born of real world emotions; the Hive Mind is perhaps a perfect unity. The "Warp God" born from the physical reality of united Tyranids, creates a Warp presence that is perfectly united. Both within itself and to the reality of Tyranids. Thus allowing the Hive Mind to essentially operate as a united front in the Warp and Reality at once. Indeed its likely so interwoven that the two sides have no real separation either and its akin to a single living entity that is as much in reality as in the warp at the same time.

So its akin to a Warp God; but its not the same. It doesn't need to manifest into lesser creatures because there's no division within itself; no alternative thought and no need (not understanding) to divide itself to make war in the Warp. It simply uses its real Tyranids to devour all in reality. If there is nothing else in reality but Tyranids then there's no food to go to the other Warp Gods and they die off. Simply to be smothered by the Shadow in the Warp

I dunno. It’s a powerful consciousness in the warp which is, ultimately, All A God Is.

The Hive Mind already kinda does what it takes to create Daemons - tiny slivers of self given limited autonomy to help achieve the goals of the whole self. At once separate, but still entirely and irrevocably linked.

It could be its potential to create Daemons is just too abstract for it. It may not make the link between Mr Shouty, Mr Smelly, Mr Thinky and Mr Kinky, the other powerful consciousness in the Warp, and these strange, bland morsels that keep turning up.

It could also be that such an entity requires too much fine motor control. The fleshy bugs? Their instinctual drives make them plenty dangerous. They only really need more direct guidance when a Prey That Fights is presenting a particularly complex problem.

The underpinning consciousness might be near infinite - but I’m not sure that expands to its attention necessarily. And so, despite requiring biomass (which you’re gathering anyway), they are in fact the more cost effective approach?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Though as a side thought? I do wonder if Gork and Mork have at least tried to give the Hive Mind a good kicking in the warp?

I mean, they’re not ones to give the Boyz a direct intervention. That would rob them of a good fight after all.

But when the Boyz are getting stuck in? I can see Gork & Mork seizing the chance to get a scrap of their own in too.

Are we sure Gork and Mork are real... or are they just a collective delusion of the Ork subconscious?

Gork and Mork want a good fight for fun - thing is we don't really know how the Tyranid manifestation in the Warp really is beyond it casting a shadow that makes other demons flee like mad.

It might be that there's no "entity" for Gork and Mork to fight against. Just an all smothering shadow

Oh they’re 100% real.

There’s an old short story, documenting the rise of a new Waaagh! in they’re described ignoring and shrugging off the other Gods.

And whilst (oh no, hard life) I’d need to re-read my RT Ork books? I’m pretty sure one of them has smacked all of Khorne’s teeth out his gob. For a laugh.

The Hive Mind is for all purposes a god, but it isn't really a Warp God.

It is similar to how the C'tan are gods, but clearly not Warp Gods.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
I dunno. It’s a powerful consciousness in the warp which is, ultimately, All A God Is.

The Hive Mind already kinda does what it takes to create Daemons - tiny slivers of self given limited autonomy to help achieve the goals of the whole self. At once separate, but still entirely and irrevocably linked.

The main difference is that the Shadow in the Warp is the collective buzz of a billion Tyranid organisms, not the conscious effort of the Hive Mind to infiltrate the umbral plane deliberately. All it does is block access between the dimensions for those drawing power from it, i.e., Psykers or Daemons.
The Hive Mind itself doesn't exist in the Warp; it's not some big evil bug that Khorne or Gork can go beat up.

Additionally, the Hive Mind generating command and control biomorphs to control the wider Tyranid swarms more tactically is not the same as a God creating a Daemon. Hive Tyrants and the like are reactionary measures taken by a Hive Fleet when resistance requires a more adaptive and creative command and control node compared to Prime-type biomorphs. A Daemon has no reason to exist other than a God wanting to make it or being birthed from a particularly powerful, cruel, emotional, or destructive act in the materium, like Samus.

 Gert wrote:

The main difference is that the Shadow in the Warp is the collective buzz of a billion Tyranid organisms, not the conscious effort of the Hive Mind to infiltrate the umbral plane deliberately.

The Shadow in the Warp is at least partly a deliberate effort, Kronos having a considerable stronger Shadow In the Warp to weaken and banish Daemons and other Warp phenomena is a core aspect of the Hive Fleet.

Whether it originally was the collective buzz of trillions upon trillions of Tyranids that has been further refined and weaponized given its noted effectiveness against 40k's other factions or something even more deliberate is up to debate.

Could just be the difference between a large crowd of people having quiet conversations, and everyone yelling.

Maybe, but "everyone yelling" implies the will to yell. Specially as there is no true plural "everyone" here, just one singular will that is being "louder".

It’s still feasible.

What it does overall suggest is that the Warp’s energies are not infinite. That they may be something akin to a bandwith, and that with sufficient psychic traffic the individual can be drowned out or lost among the general to-ing and fro-ing?

Mind you the Shadow in the Warp isn't just interfering with other metaphysical phenomena.

It is noted that psychic specialized organisms like Maleceptors and Neurotyrants can further weaponize the Shadow in the Warp to cause mass hallucinations and histeria or even plant very specific ideas in the mind of enemy leaders to win the information war. Or just to outright kill them with a psychic overload.

Nor it is limited to psychically sensitive species, as it has been also noted that even Necrons and their technologies are affected (although at a much lesser degree than everyone else).

Again though, the Shadow is an effect of Hive Fleets, one that has been weaponised now that the Hive Mind has had a couple of hundred years to understand what it does but it does not the Hive Mind a God make.

If we didn't have like full-on actual Warp Gods it could be argued from a philosophical point of view, but in terms of theology or whatever, it's just a lot of screeching bugs.

Which, so far as anyone in-universe can figure? Form a single mind.

I mean, the background categorically states otherwise in every iteration because that's what a gestalt consciousness is. It's not one mind feeding down; it's a billion billion minds feeding up, down, across, around, inside, and outside.

The various races of the galaxy that care about trying to understand the Hive Mind very explicitly never get it right because they literally cannot comprehend how the Hive Mind actually works.

I mean, massive entity beyond the scale and comprehension of mortal minds does sound like a God, even if it doesn't fit the definition of a Warp God.

 Gert wrote:
I mean, the background categorically states otherwise in every iteration because that's what a gestalt consciousness is. It's not one mind feeding down; it's a billion billion minds feeding up, down, across, around, inside, and outside.

The various races of the galaxy that care about trying to understand the Hive Mind very explicitly never get it right because they literally cannot comprehend how the Hive Mind actually works.

Yet when we’ve sources of persons (idiots) trying to touch the Hive Mind? It’s An Entity. Not billions of entities. Singular. A single mind piloting all those beasties, the way our body maintains and regulates all the cells that comprise it.

I don't see it as any different to a warp god.

They are built from the souls of mortals swarming together that generates an emergent consciousness.

The hive Mind is exactly the same, it's just the souls that form it are still alive and completely in sync in a way no life normally is. The Eldar are all psychic and empathic and yet their species was highly individualistic. Being able to mind meld doesn't remove individuality.

The Tyranids are connected at such a basal layer that their souls are in lock step.

And yes they have to have souls that's the metaphysical rule of life in 40k. They have a corresponding warp presence even if it's small. A Tyranids soul might only be a flicker, like a humans to an Eldar in comparison. But quadrillions of them all in sync generates a warp god of unusual order.

Warp entities are natural evolutions of the existence of souls. The hive Mind is an unnatural evolution or an intelligent design. The irony of something that uses evolution to make intelligent design...