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Contempt for human frailty could be seen as an advantage of sorts.

For the most part? Marines train against and alongside their Battle Brothers. I can’t imagine it takes terribly long for them to sort of lose sight just how superior they are to regular smelly Hoomans.

So, you factor that into their training, to give them a realistic expectation when they inevitably fight alongside the Guard, PDF, Sisters etc.

I mean, if your battle plan depends on a Guard regiment keeping up with you on foot for 15 hours? That’s a very stupid plan. And even for less deliberately silly examples? There’s less point in you creating a breach if the Guard or whoever you’re supporting can’t take advantage of it for a few hours. You’re ill suited to hanging around to maintain the breach. So again, you need an appreciation of human frailty for proper planning.

My headcanon would have their humanity be dependent on what they were like as children. Some of them would have the mental fortitude to retain more humanity after the regiment and doctrines and training is pushed into them, and others would have in squashed out.

You can see this in the military nowadays - some people in the military make it their whole lives, and become somewhat less relatable to outsiders in doing so. Others retain a sense of humour and wit, and have hobbies which aren't military drills. Both are effective in the army, so there's no reason to assume there isn't a similar spectrum of personality-strength in the ranks of Space Marines. Whilst their duties may prevent them from collecting warhammer or painting, some will still give their minds a little leniancy to wander, within the limits of their training. Some marines probably have nothing but war. Others may have some poetry, or jokes, or song, or just appreciation for the beauty of colour.

I also like the idea that marines probably gain more of these human traits as they grow older. I imagine these traits aid in progression, as the marines are bred for one purpose: to defend humanity. It makes sense that those they look to for inspiration and motivation would be the ones who most remind them of that humanity.

 some bloke wrote:
My headcanon would have their humanity be dependent on what they were like as children. Some of them would have the mental fortitude to retain more humanity after the regiment and doctrines and training is pushed into them, and others would have in squashed out.

You can see this in the military nowadays - some people in the military make it their whole lives, and become somewhat less relatable to outsiders in doing so. Others retain a sense of humour and wit, and have hobbies which aren't military drills. Both are effective in the army, so there's no reason to assume there isn't a similar spectrum of personality-strength in the ranks of Space Marines. Whilst their duties may prevent them from collecting warhammer or painting, some will still give their minds a little leniancy to wander, within the limits of their training. Some marines probably have nothing but war. Others may have some poetry, or jokes, or song, or just appreciation for the beauty of colour.

I also like the idea that marines probably gain more of these human traits as they grow older. I imagine these traits aid in progression, as the marines are bred for one purpose: to defend humanity. It makes sense that those they look to for inspiration and motivation would be the ones who most remind them of that humanity.

This will vary wildly on the Chapter, given Marine aspirants spend years in hypno-indoctrination. That is a level of propaganda far above modern militaries.

Even within the setting, very, very few other Imperial organisations routinely manage to suppress basic human urges to such a degree as not feeling fear. Marines essentially never break and run, they are never routed and flee disorganised. They will do tactical withdrawals in good order, but that is very different. In contrast, even the likes of the DKoK or the Schola Progenium don't manage to achieve that level of indoctrination- the soldiers they produce still feel fear, still break on occasion. Even Commissars. Presumably the hypno-indoctrination gear is rare and valuable and few outside the Astartes can maintain its use, or perhaps it is physiologically deleterious and requires an enhanced physique to tolerate.

So what a Chapter chooses to include in their indoctrination probably varies, and some will probably include more human elements than others. The Blood Angels and many of their successors, for example, value art and craftsmanship, so probably foster this. Whereas I doubt the Marinnes Malevolent foster anything tangentially related to empathy.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Orkeosaurus wrote:

The_Real_Chris wrote:

 Orkeosaurus wrote:

I'm thinking that Brother Marinus is going to be a better-adjusted and more well-rounded person than Jimmy. Still not great, but he's had more variety in his life experiences, he's much healthier physically, he has probably talked to a larger number of people, he's been to different places. Space marines have a hard life but it can't really compare with the over-the-top misery of the toiling masses, because at the end of the day Marinus needs to be an omni-competent super-solider and Jimmy just needs to push a mop around.

What he hasn't got is human empathy. So he can meet a variety of people, he won't feel much or be able to understand them. hell he isn't going to fall in love and have children. All those urges are redirected towards the chapter, geneseed, mythical father figures, etc.

But my point is there's no reason why the underhiver's sense of empathy would be any more developed. The marine is treated like more of a "human being" than he is. If the marine is a slave the underhiver is livestock.

It's true that the space marine is indoctrinated to kill when ordered, and the janitor isn't, but a reluctance to kill people doesn't prove empathy. Jimmy might not hesitate to drag the corpse of his coworker off the factory floor to throw in the corpse hole, so he can mop up the blood and avoid punishment by his boss. We know space marines don't lack empathy to such a high degree because they still treat their dead with reverence (when feasible). In fact many of their traditions are outlets for directing their empathy in ways useful to the chapter, which would be pointless if they had none to begin with.

In short while Marinus is an emotionally-stunted killing machine Jimmy is an even more emotionally-stunted mopping machine. Jimmy can be broken to a greater degree because his job is simple and less important. Space marines are given substantial leeway in practicing their chapter traditions specifically because their mental development is important to being able to perform their role.

I think there are some fair points here, although you confuse the Underhive with the Hive proper. The latter is the region typically full of brutal drudgery and endless toil in the service of the Imperium. The amount of leisure time seems to vary by world but I suspect many hive worlds in particular minimise it to minimise the time to foment rebellions. Necromunda certainly does, although we should be careful to generalise it to others.

By contrast, the Underhive is a much freer place only partially under Imperial control. It is a brutal, dangerous place, but one where communities form and largely manage themselves free from the wider Imperium. People flee to the Underhive to escape the ordered servitude of higher levels. You will probably find much more community and empathy within the Underhive than within a typical Hive district.

That said, most Imperial worlds do have leisure time and bars and community. Although, given the massive disparity in population size between hive worlds and forge worlds compared to most others, and the fact some other types of world commonly have similar worker routines like agri and mining worlds, I would not be surprised a solid majority of the overall population of the Imperium does essentially live in constant, back-breaking servitude with minimal community and opportunity for social development. These will form a significant proportion of Imperial military recruitment, perhaps even a majority, but from what we know of hive world recruitment probably a disproportionately small proportion relative to their overall share of the Imperium's population.

Side note for this discussion: empathy isn't required to communicate well and even bond with other humans. Paying attention to the needs and expectations of others does not require empathy, it is just much easier to do if you can also put yourself in their shoes. Absence of empathy does not automatically translate into being a gakhead or evil.

I don't necessarily think of marines as being fully *without* empathy or certain human emotions. I think it's more tragic and painful than that. They still have most of those emotions in there somewhere; the marine has just been crushed into a shape that only allows them to process and redirect those emotions in very specific ways.

We definitely see marines feeling real, deep grief over the loss of their battle brothers or over the horrors inflicted on their fellow humans. They just don't seem to be very good at processing it in any form other than anger/hate/aggression/duty.

To me, it reads less like they're robots stripped of emotion and more like they're traumatized people whose emotional reactions and ways of processing those emotions are extremely warped.

 Wyldhunt wrote:
I don't necessarily think of marines as being fully *without* empathy or certain human emotions. I think it's more tragic and painful than that. They still have most of those emotions in there somewhere; the marine has just been crushed into a shape that only allows them to process and redirect those emotions in very specific ways.

We definitely see marines feeling real, deep grief over the loss of their battle brothers or over the horrors inflicted on their fellow humans. They just don't seem to be very good at processing it in any form other than anger/hate/aggression/duty.

To me, it reads less like they're robots stripped of emotion and more like they're traumatized people whose emotional reactions and ways of processing those emotions are extremely warped.

I agree with you, but I do think it is worth pointing out that empathy and emotions are very different. Near enough every human has emotions unless they are not capable of higher cognitive functions, whereas some have no empathy and a lot have limited empathy.

Given that I think it needs to be said clearly for the thread (not at all saying you said this was the case Wyldhunt!), no empathy also does not mean someone has to be an arsehole or even evil, it just makes it easier to be those things. Clinical psychopaths can be perfectly functional, pleasant members of society, they just need to have different motivations for learning those social cues and so on other than empathy (usually a recognition that fitting into society and being nice to people is in their self-interest).

Hence why even if Marines are fully stripped of their ability to empathise with common humanity, this does not automatically make them unable to interact with humans effectively, recognise their role as protectors of humanity instead of protectors of the Imperium, or even have friendships with ordinary humans. A lack of empathy would definitely make it harder and less likely to happen or be successful though.

Perhaps this isn't germane to the discussion, but MY space marine chapter is made up of pure-strain humans. Their secret is that they do not have the standard augmentations of other marines, and mimic those capabilities with a more sophisicated version of power armor. They have all the technological advantages to give them greater size and strength, as well as a program of rejuvenats, but no foreign organs are within their flesh. They consider other marines as useful, but as something to be culled when the time comes much like the Thunder warriors.

So they are highly trained but dedicated zealots devoted to the purity of the human race (space nazis?), and are ruthless in upholding that ideal. They view ogryns, ratlings and other mutants as abhorent, but even servo-skulls are considered an abomination and a mockery to Mankind.

They never give quarter to any xenos faction, and are much like a death cult, their symbol being an inverted ankh. Definitely 'the baddies' except in this setting many would find them tolerable.

 amanita wrote:
Perhaps this isn't germane to the discussion, but MY space marine chapter is made up of pure-strain humans. Their secret is that they do not have the standard augmentations of other marines, and mimic those capabilities with a more sophisicated version of power armor.

Ohhh, that's a clever hack. I like that!