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See title.

Theoretically, a Space Marine is an inhuman and transhuman killing machine, a weapon of war with no other purpose.
In practice, they’re presented in a pretty human fashion.

So what do you like? Do you feel the current outlook is good? Less human? More human?

I prefer a sliding scale, where newly inducted marines are inhuman, detached killing machines for the first few decades of their lives but the psychological conditioning begins to break down around the half-century mark and they become less rigid and more human. They should never be entirely normal, they are transhuman after all, but I feel like there's space for both interpretations.

Entirely headcanon though

It depends on how different they 'really' are. I'm not a fan of the 'statements = facts' approach some of the BL authors use to describe some of this stuff. Like 'transhuman dread'. Just stating it doesn't really convince me it happens. it sounds cool, but the explanation relies more on the term sounding cool than anything else.

Marines have human brains. They have added organs that change how they sleep see and hear, but their personalities and thought capability is still human. Their brains aren't altered. Their neurons fire at the same speed, the same mental limitations human biology places on brain tissue also applies to marine brains (sans those aforementioned augmentations).

So the 'inhumaness' comes from nurture - being an indoctrinated child soldier, which is possible for any human and therefore in no way super special unique snowflake awesome space marineness.

So them being transhuman I don't see as fundamentally making their minds different, any more than getting a donor heart changes a person.

If anything I expect their egos to be the biggest issue - you're taking a child that hasn't formed a good mental image of themselves, often with moral values built around violence=good, and then giving them super powers and encouraging them to be even more violent.

I imagine there are quite a lot of marines with personalities more akin to Homelander than the noble knights GW likes to sell.


It's one of the reasons why I think Ian Watson's space marine was a better representation than all the modern bolter porn, especially the gross feast. At least he explored CONSEQUENCES in a more meaningful way. The current GW fiction is pulp action, Watson's stuff at least tried to be a little deeper and more classical scifi in the exploration of what it means to be a human in such circumstances. Not saying his stuff is sublime, but HH is Days of our Lives bolter edition by comparison.

So I like my marines to actually reflect the rules that went into their creation, rather than GW's tendency to decide what is cool and then just keep repeating that coolness back at you in the hope that repetition will mean you accept that it's just true.

I like Charax's idea of the older they get the less zealous they become - it's akin to the older inquisitors being more likely to be radicals than the younger ones.

Combine that with my comments above and I can see lots of little homelanders encountering challenges and failures that make them grow and develop proper personalities if they live long enough.

It depends on when the novel is set.

In 30k, they were more carefully crafted and often much more human. Their recruitment took longer, and their culture, depending on Legion, allowed for more indulging in things like art (the Blood Angels are especially famous for this).

But then the Heresy happened with the Inductii, which Ashes of the Imperium iterated on. A Magos explains to an Imperial Fists commander that, to try to avoid the Heresy ever happening again, new recruits are being put through extremely intensive psycho-conditioning, dampening all emotions except rage, and a feeling of hate and revulsion when witnessing the symbols and appearance of the enemy.

So 40k-era Marines are and should be monsters. There can still be some variety, but these are mentally mutilated child-soldiers, they should not be -too- human.

Psychologically I like Marines as developmentally arrested 12-15 year old boys, but with any sexual urge eradicated. They're a young boy's idea of a big tough guy, a sort of satire on masculinity, but young boys are often scared or confused by girls so that's been completely cut out of them (girls are icky!).

They would be incredibly dangerous due to this, with black and white thinking aided and abetted by hypno indoctrination and a simplistic and harsh worldview that is common in young teens.

I think any marines that are "nicer" should still be nicer in a sort of thoughtless semi-childlike way - not really understanding normal people at all and taking things for granted, perhaps doing what they think is the right thing but in a horrific way.

I'm alright with the older interpretation of them being mind wiped and hypno indoctrinated criminals as well, with all that developmentally arrested stuff not really present, but I think that works better with Rogue Trader style marines than the modern version.

Physically, I like my Marines "a step above" but not at ludicrous superhero levels as most seem to prefer. Stronger, faster, tougher, a bit bigger, but not so massive, indestructible and super strong as portrayed in your average Dan Abnett novel.

Edit to add: I'm also not opposed to older marines becoming less zealous, but I think their brains have been so re-wired toward violence that it'd be hard for them to ever become normal or "chill out", they're going to be bloodthirsty lunatics who solve problems with violence no matter what, they might just become more cynical or in rare cases a little bit more considered.

I think Marines have to remain monsters for the setting to work properly - they're terrible things, and they should not be made.

It depends.

They are still derived from humans, and so surely some core of base humanity must remain.

But? They tend to specifically originate as Child Warriors. Could be from a relatively primitive world where every day is a fight for survival. They could be a pre-teen from a Hive World where they have to fight for survival in somewhat but not completely different ways.

From there? They’re taken on as Aspirants and put through an unimaginably brutal training regime, even before the implants begin.

I don’t want them to be entirely inhuman and unrelatable to the reader. But they should come across as odd. Like a cross between a Jock utterly obsessed with sports to the exclusion of all else, and nerd well on the spectrum when it comes to social interactions.

Because they were only human for a short period, and then most of that experience is stripped away to turn them into post-human warrior monks.

Yeah, let them sort of ape social niceties. But there should always be the feeling they know the words, but not the why. Make them feel kind of alien.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, what Da Boss said. I think we’re on the same Chapter if not the same page.

I wish they would be able to convey more of the feel of the old Ian Watson Marines. Imagine being raised in an all male brotherhood where for decades and centuries it is endless going on about honor and hyper-masculinity, all with heavy indoctrination with a mental framework of holy violence ("To slay is to pray"). The life of normal humans becomes strange and alien even if they receive hypno-training. The short lifespan of normal humans without rejuvenation treatments also mean it is hard for them to form bonds with any normal humans. Go fight in a campaign for a few decades and that person you knew is now old and frail or dead of old age.

Which is why I actually want Guilliman's attempt at putting Space Marines in charge as sub-rulers and administrators to fail, because they don't understand how to navigate the needs of normal humans and social niceties. They might provoke rebellions because they don't understand why nobles and the more well off might want luxuries or consumer goods, or push worker classes to the point of starvation or death through overwork and trigger them to revolt. They don't really understand social subtlety or why they can't just threaten to crush everyone's skulls in their fists if all else fails. I don't want Space Marines to be good at everything because one of the key themes of the Heresy like its inspiration of the War in Heaven was about the Space Marines (i.e. angels) revolting over normal humans getting to rule the Imperium (angels refusing to submit to humans). The CSM have created the kind of society they wanted where they are the warlords over an oppressed underclass of normal humanity.

It’s kinda rare we see Marines in a situation outside of a campaign.

There? They absolutely should be hyper focussed. It’s literally what they’re made for.

But post-Heresy, where they’ve limited contact with regular smelly Hoomans? They should be portrayed as out of sorts in any social interaction.

For instance. Victory is achieved. Planetary Governor puts on a victory feast. At least some of the Astartes involved attend as a matter of protocol and diplomacy. There? I feel their interactions should come across as weird, and emotionally stunted. Broadly. A Space Wolf absolutely should be making a complete spectacle of himself because that’s their culture, even for regular smelly Fenrisian hoomans.

For those that’ve seen Father Ted? Think “Yes” and “That would be an ecumenical matter” sort of limited chat skills.

I'd like them to be barely human. Which is to say, they are vaguely human in appearance but leagues apart in terms of their social norms and graces. Ideally they should be as close to humans as normal humans are to Eldar or Orks. There's certainly a few similarities but really nothing similar. Marine should be the epitome of the Imperium in war - brutal, uncompromising and uncaring. They are a tool to prevent a descent into darkness.

The child soldier turned into brutal killing machine is a good trope and vehicle for storytelling in the dark twisted future. Any human touches they produce should seem almost obscene in the context of their nature. Those moments of childlike humanity in an otherwise gigantic monstrous form is the bread and butter.

And I think most BL authors do create a suitable sense of that.

I'd like them outside any social norm of an unaugmented human society, rigid and formal, but they should have something individual. Not just blank soulless marine#3847485 who brave and all and don't understand humans(really it's always awful when author just say a marine don't understand the man, but never explain what exactly he doesn't understand.)
I like marines in the Rise of the Beast series.
But most recent novels' characters Are awful. They just like the hero movie guys from 90x.

The whole "inhumanity" of the space marines falls flat in 40k because half of the humans shown are kookier than the space marines.

They're fanatical but not like sisters.
They're brainwashed but not like commissars.
They're metaphorical killing machines but not literal ones like skitarii.
They're genetically altered but they weren't cloned from scratch like Kreigers.
They're bloodthirsty but not like hive gangers.
They're oppressive but not like nobles.
They're big but not like ogryns.
They're masculine but not like Catachans.

It's just very meh. Space marines don't look or act much more "inhuman" than the actual humans of the Imperium, much less all of the aliens or cultists who are far weirder. If the space marine isn't interacting with Joe Bureaucrat or a Cadian infantryman you can consistently expect the space marine to be the most normal person in the conversation. Oh no, he's really serious and only cares about saving the planet from aliens. Meanwhile the inquisitor is secretly trying to stitch genestealer claws on orphans or something. The guy who fixes your laptop cut out his own tongue so he can only speak binary. Your boss makes you work in the acid factory for 16 hours a day and pays you in the ground-up corpses of your coworkers.

To be honest, I belive that the Marines Malevolent are probably the closest to how I believe that Marines would probably act.

You have hypno indoctrination that says win at all costs and there is no fallout if you decide to shoot through the Orphanage to kill the Tau on the other side.

Jobs done, civilian casualties don't matter. We have that mentality for combat in modern day armies, it is simply turned up to 11 for the genre.

GW has definitively moved away from the grimdark take on marines - its telling that when explained to him Ian Watson is one of the few authors to run with it.

Its a big missed opportunity to have the CSM guys be more human but twisted, as opposed to marines taking their system to its logical extent and being far more distant to people. But GW can't have the most popular faction come across like that, with now as you say marines being put in charge of worlds. As you say that should go horribly wrong, these aren't the originals who anyway weren't entirely right in the head, these are children selected in extremely odd ways who can't relate to people.

The_Real_Chris wrote:
GW has definitively moved away from the grimdark take on marines - its telling that when explained to him Ian Watson is one of the few authors to run with it.

Its a big missed opportunity to have the CSM guys be more human but twisted, as opposed to marines taking their system to its logical extent and being far more distant to people. But GW can't have the most popular faction come across like that, with now as you say marines being put in charge of worlds. As you say that should go horribly wrong, these are the originals who anyway weren't entirely right in the head, these are children selected in extremely odd ways who can't relate to people.

It is also in the lore that this did go terribly when it was tried before, during the Horus Heresy. Marine commanders routinely misunderstood their human troops and frequently had poor outcomes where they'd overestimate their physical capabilities and exhaust them, for example.

 Haighus wrote:

The_Real_Chris wrote:
GW has definitively moved away from the grimdark take on marines - its telling that when explained to him Ian Watson is one of the few authors to run with it.

Its a big missed opportunity to have the CSM guys be more human but twisted, as opposed to marines taking their system to its logical extent and being far more distant to people. But GW can't have the most popular faction come across like that, with now as you say marines being put in charge of worlds. As you say that should go horribly wrong, these are the originals who anyway weren't entirely right in the head, these are children selected in extremely odd ways who can't relate to people.

It is also in the lore that this did go terribly when it was tried before, during the Horus Heresy. Marine commanders routinely misunderstood their human troops and frequently had poor outcomes where they'd overestimate their physical capabilities and exhaust them, for example.

This is more or less the plot of one of the recent Iron Hands books too. Where a pretty reasonable imperial commander serving in a joint operation lead by the Iron Hands kind of goes rogue because of the Iron Hands' horrific communication skills. Basically, the Iron Hands keep sending the humans under their command into meat grinders and refuse to explain why it was necessary to do so when the human commander asks about it. I'm not entirely sure if the author was trying to convey that the Iron Hands are just so socially inept that they inspire rebellion among their allies or if the implication was that the Iron Hands were genuinely just treating the humans as cheap fodder and refusing to communicate why because they knew the explanation wouldn't go over well. Either way, it makes the 'Hands come off like dicks.

Theoretically, a Space Marine is an inhuman and transhuman killing machine, a weapon of war with no other purpose.
In practice, they’re presented in a pretty human fashion.

So what do you like? Do you feel the current outlook is good? Less human? More human?

So this is slightly tricky to answer because there's the way I think marines would act given canon, and then separately there's the question of whether I like that.

Given that they're brainwashed child soldiers indoctrinated into very rigid modes of thinking and generally discouraged from having much individuality or variety of interests... I think they would be antisocial dickbags without much interesting going on. And this is more or less how they're usually depicted. They tend to be cranky, arrogant, man-children. Quick to anger. Quick to do something dickish rather than empathize with the humans around them. It makes them edgy but painfully boring. They can't have much variety of character backgrounds or driving motivations because those were largely brainwashed out of them or otherwise removed from the list of things they care about. They can't have interesting philosophies or be too curious about the system they find themselves in because that leads to a stern lecture from the chaplain.

Decades ago, the concept of a transhuman child soldier was interesting for the sheer tragedy of it and the exploration of inhumanity. Black Library has told that story about a million times by now, and it's no longer interesting. And due to their nature and the process that created them, they don't lend themselves very well to new/additional plot hooks.

My favorite depictions of marines tend to be the more human ones. I really enjoy Solom Akurra from the Mike Brooks Alpha Legion books because he comes across as reasonable more often than not. He has his astartes pride (and is also cognizant enough of that pride to struggle with it internally), and he acknowledges that he can't fully relate to humans (despite having a little human psyker buddy and being able to empathize well enough to utilize psychology in his schemes), but he has those traits without feeling like a roided up toddler who missed nap time.

I think there’s room for multiple takes.

I’ve not read the book, but Iron Hands tale mentioned by Wyldhunt? There are Guard Commanders who wouldn’t be at all bothered by their guys being thrown into meat grinder after meat grinder. Some of those may simply not care at all. Some might be irked at not being told why the Iron Hands are doing it.

A Hero of The Imperium might have the dubious privilege of fighting alongside different Chapters at different times. Their opinion of Ultramarines (super efficient), Space Wolves (mental, but in a fun way) and Flesh Tearers (just plain old mental) are likely to vary, because the three Chapters there are all pretty different in approach, outlook and behaviour.

I’d imagine any Astartes of command level is going to have better social skills than a regular Brother, because they’re more likely to have to attend command meetings, whether in person or remotely, and so have greater experience of the same.

But a lot is still going to come down to the personality of the Chapter.

In terms of command integration? No Chapter has to consult with its allies. It’s advisable to do so of course. But it’s not an obligation. And that consultation can vary from “We’re going over here to smash up this specific objective, and we don’t care what you think” notification to having some physical presence in the command bunker or what have you at all times for greater strategic oversight.

So again, I don’t think the inhumanity of Marines is going to be a single thing. It’s going to vary between Chapters and even individuals.

A Marine on a planetside garrison is more likely to regularly interact with the wider populace than one in a fleet bound Chapter and so on.

I like that Homelander analogy. That's pretty much how I see most Astartes. Throw in some repressed homosexual urges and we're getting pretty close.

IDGAF how modern GW portrays Astartes. All they care about is their bottom line, and that means stuff still needs to be family friendly enough. Wouldnt be cool for Little Timmy to idolize roided out psychopaths with repressed homosexual issues now would it? So now they're like any cheesy action movie hero, with zero edges.

The only Imperial factions which arent leaning into homosexuality are Astra Militarum, Inquisition & AdMech.

Why repressed homosexuality?

I mean, repressed sexuality in general, perhaps. But homosexual specifically?

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Why repressed homosexuality?

I mean, repressed sexuality in general, perhaps. But homosexual specifically?

Marines spend most their times around other marines. Just like Sisters Of Battle spend most of their time around other SoB's. Seems only logical thats where the romantic feels will end up. Who else could ever understand their life?

I’m not sure that’s how sexuality works? Or that Marines have sexual urges at all, what with all the additional hormones and hypnoindoctrination and that?

 tauist wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Why repressed homosexuality?

I mean, repressed sexuality in general, perhaps. But homosexual specifically?

Marines spend most their times around other marines. Just like Sisters Of Battle spend most of their time around other SoB's. Seems only logical thats where the romantic feels will end up. Who else could ever understand their life?

Being around men turns you gay?
That’s news to me.

Even in terms of their social skills and personal development I'm skeptical of the claim that a space marine should be worse off than the average human in the Imperium. Let's do a side-by-side comparison of Brother Marinus and Jimmy the Janitor:

Marinus was from a medieval clan but was turned into a child-solider at age 12. Jimmy began working at his underhive factory at age 8 because his great-grandfather worked there.
Marinus has traveled to many different planets, though they've usually been active warzones. Jimmy has never left his hab-district, nor has he ever seen a tree or the sky.
Marinus spends 16 hours a day training to perform a wide range of combat operations. Jimmy spends 16 hours a day mopping acid off the floor of the factory.
Marinus has a basic education in Imperial history mainly to give context to historical battles. Jimmy is barely literate and doesn't even know that "Horus" was a space marine.
Marinus has occasionally interacted with various generals, tech-priests, nobles, and so on but strictly in the line of business. Jimmy has never met anyone of another social class.
Marinus is often injured but receives good medical care afterwards. Jimmy is perpetually sick from being exposed to toxic waste his whole life.
Marinus mostly eats boring field rations, but sometimes attends ceremonial feasts. Jimmy eats ground-up corpse paste, often with shortages.

I'm thinking that Brother Marinus is going to be a better-adjusted and more well-rounded person than Jimmy. Still not great, but he's had more variety in his life experiences, he's much healthier physically, he has probably talked to a larger number of people, he's been to different places. Space marines have a hard life but it can't really compare with the over-the-top misery of the toiling masses, because at the end of the day Marinus needs to be an omni-competent super-solider and Jimmy just needs to push a mop around.

 JNAProductions wrote:

 tauist wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Why repressed homosexuality?

I mean, repressed sexuality in general, perhaps. But homosexual specifically?

Marines spend most their times around other marines. Just like Sisters Of Battle spend most of their time around other SoB's. Seems only logical thats where the romantic feels will end up. Who else could ever understand their life?

Being around men turns you gay?
That’s news to me.

Yeah I don't think this is how it works.

In a Doylist sense, there are definitely homoerotic undertones here and there. "Only men shall receive my seed" being the Emperor's stance and all that, sure it's a bit funny. I don't think it's meant to seriously be their theme though. If anything they're appealing to the sort of ultramasculine machismo toxicity that often makes itself at home in fascism, and their distended bodies and ultra-violent mindsets are part of that.

 Ashiraya wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

 tauist wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Why repressed homosexuality?

I mean, repressed sexuality in general, perhaps. But homosexual specifically?

Marines spend most their times around other marines. Just like Sisters Of Battle spend most of their time around other SoB's. Seems only logical thats where the romantic feels will end up. Who else could ever understand their life?

Being around men turns you gay?
That’s news to me.

Yeah I don't think this is how it works.

In a Doylist sense, there are definitely homoerotic undertones here and there. "Only men shall receive my seed" being the Emperor's stance and all that, sure it's a bit funny. I don't think it's meant to seriously be their theme though. If anything they're appealing to the sort of ultramasculine machismo toxicity that often makes itself at home in fascism, and their distended bodies and ultra-violent mindsets are part of that.

This. I'd also be hesitant to suggest that homosexuality and violence are closely related, even though I know tauist didn't mean to imply it in that way.

But yeah, I think space marines are mostly going for the "uber man" thing that fascists tend to idolize, but in a twisted, grimdark kind of way. Sure, here's your faction of super athletic tough guys who are good at violence. They're hideously scarred and surgically altered under that armor, and mentally they're emotionally stunted children who have been force fed state propaganda. The ghost of ye olde satire is there.

Spinning off of that point, if I can't have marines acting reasonable, I like when they're still framed as bad guys. Or at least, framed as not good guys. There's that low-key sinister thing that happens when you tell a story about marines heroically saving the day and being friends of humanity and sweep the whole boot-licking genocidal murder-bot angle under the rug. To the point that a story that depicts an ultramarine as a "good guy" feels kinda gross. There's an old HH short story about space wolves defending a planet from drukhari only to turn on the humans they were just fighting side-by-side with when the humans aren't gung-ho about joining the imperium. I feel like that's a decent balance. It lets you show your marines (space puppies in this case) being "heroic" and stomping the extra bad bad guys, but instead of leaving you viewing them as unambiguous protagonists, it reminds you last minute that these, too, are horrible people who will do horrible things to innocent people.

Part of the horror of The Imperium is how unaware the general populace is of the horror.

Whichever world your from? Your culture has, essentially, been stagnant for 10,000 years or so. If you’re born in a Hive? You’re most likely to live and die in that Hive, with the exception of the lucky few that make it into the Imperial Guard.

That your rations are slop and short is just how life is, and has been for as long as anyone can remember. And throughout that time you’ve been told to be thankful for that, Because The Emperor Cares.

I know it’s difficult, but if you apply modern living standards and morality? You’ve a leg up on most Imperial Citizens. There’s no love or care for the individual. Just humanity as a whole. And the great lie of The Imperium is that it has any will or really ability to improve things.

At least during the Great Crusade there was some firm goal in sight. A horrific goal, yes. But one which after however many centuries and millennia of Xenocides and general evil acts, Humanity would be left in peace to flourish at its own pace.

In the modern Imperium? It’s just the remorseless, never ending grind. The only goal is to preserve The Imperium, and its power structures.

Marines are a reflection of that. And when the Guard or civilians are lucky enough to see them in action, in theory obliterating the foe at a great rate of knots? They are heroic.

The horror is for us, the onlooker. Not the participants.

I don't think there is any good indication that Imperial worlds don't change their culture over time.

Whilst the supra-planetary Imperial culture itself remains relatively consistent thanks to institutions like the Arbites, Ecclesiarchy, and Navy, even the seat of this culture on Terra itself has shifted over the millennia. For example, the Ecclesiarchy took thousands of years to become entrenched as one of the pillars of power.

The planet we know most about, Necromunda, has had entire houses come and go with their own distinct cultures. Necromundan houses are closer to nation states today than mere economic organisations, and the way they have risen and fallen bears great similarities to the rise and fall of nations in our actual history.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Charax wrote:
I prefer a sliding scale, where newly inducted marines are inhuman, detached killing machines for the first few decades of their lives but the psychological conditioning begins to break down around the half-century mark and they become less rigid and more human. They should never be entirely normal, they are transhuman after all, but I feel like there's space for both interpretations.

Entirely headcanon though

I think this is a solid interpretation.

It probably wouldn't just be the break down of the conditioning, but increased interaction with ordinary humans. Marines might typically be psychopaths by design, but they are capable of learning and social cues and niceties can be learned. Whilst no guarantee, many Marine officers will pick these up to smooth the process of fighting joint operations just to make their job easier and more effective. Emphasis on many, certainly not all.

I wouldn't be surprised if some Chapters specifically train officers in human-astartes relations, like the Ultramarines. Equally, there are a rare few like the Salamanders, and to a lesser extent the Space Wolves, who never leave their origin human culture behind in the first place.

Others, like Carcharodons and the aformentioned Marines Malevolent are callous arseholes with no pretenses of niceties.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Being around men turns you gay?
That’s news to me.

Rum, sodomy and the lash.

More seriously look to history and the martial cultures idolising love of boys and the like. A lot of human sexual behaviour is socially conditioned.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Orkeosaurus wrote:

I'm thinking that Brother Marinus is going to be a better-adjusted and more well-rounded person than Jimmy. Still not great, but he's had more variety in his life experiences, he's much healthier physically, he has probably talked to a larger number of people, he's been to different places. Space marines have a hard life but it can't really compare with the over-the-top misery of the toiling masses, because at the end of the day Marinus needs to be an omni-competent super-solider and Jimmy just needs to push a mop around.

What he hasn't got is human empathy. So he can meet a variety of people, he won't feel much or be able to understand them. hell he isn't going to fall in love and have children. All those urges are redirected towards the chapter, geneseed, mythical father figures, etc.

The_Real_Chris wrote:

 Orkeosaurus wrote:

I'm thinking that Brother Marinus is going to be a better-adjusted and more well-rounded person than Jimmy. Still not great, but he's had more variety in his life experiences, he's much healthier physically, he has probably talked to a larger number of people, he's been to different places. Space marines have a hard life but it can't really compare with the over-the-top misery of the toiling masses, because at the end of the day Marinus needs to be an omni-competent super-solider and Jimmy just needs to push a mop around.

What he hasn't got is human empathy. So he can meet a variety of people, he won't feel much or be able to understand them. hell he isn't going to fall in love and have children. All those urges are redirected towards the chapter, geneseed, mythical father figures, etc.

But my point is there's no reason why the underhiver's sense of empathy would be any more developed. The marine is treated like more of a "human being" than he is. If the marine is a slave the underhiver is livestock.

It's true that the space marine is indoctrinated to kill when ordered, and the janitor isn't, but a reluctance to kill people doesn't prove empathy. Jimmy might not hesitate to drag the corpse of his coworker off the factory floor to throw in the corpse hole, so he can mop up the blood and avoid punishment by his boss. We know space marines don't lack empathy to such a high degree because they still treat their dead with reverence (when feasible). In fact many of their traditions are outlets for directing their empathy in ways useful to the chapter, which would be pointless if they had none to begin with.

In short while Marinus is an emotionally-stunted killing machine Jimmy is an even more emotionally-stunted mopping machine. Jimmy can be broken to a greater degree because his job is simple and less important. Space marines are given substantial leeway in practicing their chapter traditions specifically because their mental development is important to being able to perform their role.

Love this point Orkeosaurus! When we talk about them having humanity, we're comparing them to ourselves. But yeah the imperium on the whole is a machine that strips away and destroys humanity from everyone in it, in supposed defense of that humanity.

 Orkeosaurus wrote:

But my point is there's no reason why the underhiver's sense of empathy would be any more developed. The marine is treated like more of a "human being" than he is. If the marine is a slave the underhiver is livestock.

It's true that the space marine is indoctrinated to kill when ordered, and the janitor isn't, but a reluctance to kill people doesn't prove empathy. Jimmy might not hesitate to drag the corpse of his coworker off the factory floor to throw in the corpse hole, so he can mop up the blood and avoid punishment by his boss. We know space marines don't lack empathy to such a high degree because they still treat their dead with reverence (when feasible). In fact many of their traditions are outlets for directing their empathy in ways useful to the chapter, which would be pointless if they had none to begin with.

In short while Marinus is an emotionally-stunted killing machine Jimmy is an even more emotionally-stunted mopping machine. Jimmy can be broken to a greater degree because his job is simple and less important. Space marines are given substantial leeway in practicing their chapter traditions specifically because their mental development is important to being able to perform their role.

I think you are discounting the whole messing with brains, feel no fear, engineered hatred etc we have in the background for marines. Empathy isn't required to revere the dead, plenty of martial cultures have that to encourage the whole death cult thing. I have run refugee camps where the inhabitants are in dire straights, putting their daughters into prostitution for the locals at 10 cents per trick, murder rates are high, domestic violence is high, but people still love, care, and despair. Marines don't do any of that like a human does. They can travel the galaxy meeting strange and interesting humans, but they aren't one of them. Contempt due to human weakness is human and doesn't seem to have been conditioned out of them. Plus if I toured simian populations all over the world I wouldn't relate to them much beyond what I projected onto the individual apes. If marines are all that conditioned and changed wouldn't it be the same?