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When the hell did I actually say he cheated. And why should I say that either when I have no proof.

I said it was supicous. I fully acknowledge the possibility that he had extremely good dice rolling over the course of the Tournament. But when you are consistantly rolling 5's and 6's over the course of 5 games, that is suspicious.

And really, get over yourself. You where not there so why should anybody think your opinion even matters. What, because you know the guy?

You are the sleezeball here, not me.

Have you noticed Me_Person's coments throughout this thread, very calm, rational and taking the high road in all this. My only comments where reactions to what I have heard, and sure I may be talking out my rear, but you are just as guilty at that.

Really, why even comment in this thread at all Mauleed. Out of some misguided attempt at defending a friend's honor? You have to admit that you have even less idea what happened there than I do.

The following is a series of facts, opinions, and paraphrases of statements that I believe constitute the body of evidence against him.

Facts:
1. He played against a dark eldar army with 7 raiders, a tau army with 9 skimmers, a necron army with 3 monoliths and a nightbringer, and an eldar army with 7 skimmers.
2. He beat all 4 of said opponents
3. Statistically it is improbable that his army would be able to beat all said armies
4. His dice rolls were way beyond what is statistically probable
5. He had several different colors of dice that were kept apparently sepperate, at least in my game.
6. Right after my friend wispered to me his suspicions, the guy speedily walked up to me and asked how my game went.

Opinions:
1. At least 3 out of 4 of the said opponents were competent players
2. Some of his actions were suspicous (see statements)
3. When the guy asked me how my game went (see fact#6), he had a nervous tone to his voice.
4. my friend believes the dice in question were disposed of following round 5

Paraphrases of statements:
For all intents and purposed, my friend who played him in the fifth round shall be called 5th opp, and the bystander shall be called bystander.
1. 5th opp "some of his dice were wobling"
2. 5th opp "A guy watching said we should all just use this guy's dice, they roll really good. Then my opponent grabbed a handful of his dice and held on to them for the rest of the game except to roll."
3. 5th opp "I asked him if I could use his dice, he then grabbed some dice he hadn't been using and put them forward."
4. Bystander "I've never seen dice roll so good, it was kinda strange."
5. 5th opp "I really suspect loaded dice"


Those are the reasons why I myself also hold suspicion.

 

Feel free to dispute or completely refute any items on my list.

Posted By Me_Person on 07/20/2006 11:07 AM

3. Statistically it is improbable that his army would be able to beat all said armies
4. His dice rolls were way beyond what is statistically probable

Statistic and odds are only useful in Theoryhammer. Once the dice hit the table, statistic and odds mean nothing.

If you feel so strongly that something was wrong, then you should've brought it up at the tournament.

Let me be unequivocal about this:

If you say outright, or insinuate someone is cheating with absolutely no proof, you're a dirtbag.

I'm commenting because whenever I see dirtbags bringing our hobby into disrepute, I comment.

So let me be crystal clear. If you think he may have cheated, and your reasoning is any of the things listed above (and me_person, I love how you present things as fact that you can't possibly prove. Did you record all of his die rolls? Can we please see your records?), you sir are a dirtbag. And no more comment need be made after that.

You three knucklheads have besmirched all Orlando 40k gaming for the entire East Coast by baselessly accusing a well respected member of one of the biggest and most successful gaming clubs in the country of cheating. Bravo. Thank goodness the Orlando fantasy guys have a little more sense than you do or there'd be no Necro.

You weren't there so you know nothing of what happened.

Me_Person listed all the reasons why he supected foul play. If you can't handle that, that is your problem.

Has there been any mention by Me_Person that he was such a sore loser and that he should have won? No, he was gratious with second, and he only mentioned the loss he got and how he got it in passing.

Call people names all you like, that doesn't change what happened. If you are so close to this guy, have him defend himself.

Like I said I am sure he is a great guy and a fun person to play against (as others have stated repeatedly). But if there is any suspition of foul play, that should be explored, for the sake of our hobby. What are we saying when we let anybody with wobbly dice win a tournament? That cheating is o.k.? All cheaters do is degrade the accomplishment of winning tournaments which brings are hoddy into greater disrpute than any allegation.

And like I said, he can defend himself. If Me_person called him on it at the Necro. And if is proven that Me_person (and others) where wrong, than fine but that didn't happen so what we are left with is a lingering question as to what happened. And as the tournament is beyound settled and the standings final, it really doesn't matter anymore.

So go on all you like Mauleed. Defend him as much as you like, but whatever you say won't change what happened.

Ed's stating it rather forcefully, but he's right. If you were suspicious that something was going down, you should have addressed it during the tournament, or forever held your peace. Going on public message boards after the fact and insinuating cheating by an opponent (when everyone knows or can find out who he is) without any evidence is really bad behavior. You're entitled to your opinion, but those are opinions that should be private. What you're doing just comes off as a bitter attempt to pi$$ on the guy's victory, and ultimately just makes YOU look like the lousy sport.

I was going to give you guys the benefit of the doubt and chalk it up to poor judgment in publicly airing what should have been a private conversation. But you just keep posting and making it worse. You guys really oughta just let it drop.

You guys are rapidly talking yourselves into a case of paramnesia here.

I belong to the same club as the person in question here and I see him roll his silver dice with red pips regularly on club night for many years, and they do not roll funny or turn up an unusual number of 5's and 6's.  The guy is just a really good player with 15+ years of experience who makes very few mistakes, specializes in unconventional army lists (that usually look weak but actually work) and like all really high-level players he's good at turning a bad situation to his favor.

Hey mauled, they aren't accusing you of cheating, they are saying someone at a tournament is suspicious. They aren't besmirching the reputation of an entire geographical region. Hell they are only letting know who it was to the people that attended the tournament since he isn't named, just his army. Some people in his region might take note and regognize him to, but if he was so well respected then they won't give it any more thought than you did.

The simple thing is his non-antitank army consistently beat armored opponents on 5 games, and reportedly had odd behavior. I can't knock a guy for not letting others toss his gaming dice, I'm not paranoid but I know people that are, but based only on personal reported observations it is possible for people to have an opinion of those comments without accusations being thrown around.

I too would take area gaming friend's opinions with a grain of salt but I would be watchful. As you are obviously biased in the guys favor you are also making judgement calls without being present based on your personal interactions.

Someone with loaded dice doesn't always have to use loaded dice. It is possible that if he did cheat in the tournament then he may not cheat regularly in friendly games. It is possible and no matter what you say in his favor or say it is impossible it isn't. I've had friends cheat in online games that I would never have suspected but found out to be true later on. It sucks that my personal opinion restricted me from seeing it when it was happening until I had proof. Simply put, no matter how well you know someone it is possible that they did something unfair.

But noone here is saying "yeah that guy cheated" they are saying "it is suspicious".

You are right Gorgon. I think we (and particularly myself) reacted more to Mauleed than the sour grapes anybody had.

The player in question won, ther is nothing that will change that, and I congradulate him. I know that there was some tough opposition, and to be able to pull off that many victories (especially with the match-ups he got) is an accomplishment, and nothing will take that away from him.

As far as any suspitions go, I am going to drop it. There isn't anything that directly affected myself anyway, so to continue to argue the point is a waste of my valuable time.

Mauleed, if you approuched things with even half the tact that Gorgon just did, people may have a little more respect for you. So please stop the kiddie games and lets all be friends.

No one is saying the guy cheated?

Here's a quote from Mahu:

"I would have made some excuse to leave the table for the moment and talked to the judges about it. Something along the lines of "I don't want to cause a fuss, but I am starting to get suspicous of my opponents dice...". You should have won, honestly, and I think you where cheated."

Then Me_Person:

"So 5 games of such rolling makes it way too much to believe every thing was legit"

So obviously they are saying the guy is a cheat.

Which is why they're dirtbags. And I have no interest in having any tact when dealing with dirtbags. You're scum and beneath my contempt.

 

Posted By jfrazell on 07/20/2006 12:49 PM
Maybe I am misreading the posted list. Did the gent have an undvidied commander?

I'm guessing the Nurgle lord was the commander so the two Nurgle troops would be troops.

Posted By jfrazell on 07/20/2006 12:49 PM
Maybe I am misreading the posted list. Did the gent have an undvidied commander?

What difference would that make? This isn't fantasy.

I thought the commander of an undivided list had to be undivided as well. I don't have the codex here so can't confirm whether that is the correct rule. Hence my query.

I was originally thinking that we have two demon lords/princes, and infiltration unit that could summon demons in turn 1, + a bike unit that could do same and may have been cherried with special weapons. Not optimized for anti skimmer but quite capable of taking them down.

Mauleed, are you now using a misquote as your signature?

How the mighty have fallen.

Hey Ed, Where the hell do you get off accusing me of saying this guy cheated? I made no such claim, nor did I even know this happened until after the fact. Furthermore, I personally wouldn't take issue with it because like you said, without irrefutable evidence, it can't be proven. So don't even go there.I didn't accuse anybody of anything, so sit on it. I met the guy and talked with him at length at times, he seems like a stand up person and I wouldn't have any qualms about playing him. But when you hear people speak of suspicious activity...especially from people you know that would never raise an issue ever, you know damn well you would lean forward and listen. However, it can't be proven nor should there be some sort of inquisition against him either. I was one of the first guys to shake his hand and congratulate him. His army was a cool one and proved to be the best in the tournament. End of story.
As an aside, next time think before you write. You accusing a pool of players of being dirtbags, etc. when you don't even know us is stupid. I, and many others have upstanding reputations within the community of gaming and for you to sit there and berate us on our "class" is most humorous. If I was the dirtbag/ shaddy f*cker that you claim I am, then why is it that then that I am defending this guy and not attacking him? Don't lump me in with a group opinion, because I don't have one on the matter. I'm not out to get this guy like you claim I am. So next time Ed think what to write before you do it.
Capt K

Good Job Ed on your fabricated signature qoute. You really are a moral compass to follow.
Capt K

To follow up, I would like to personally apologize for anything I said that was possibly offensive to the player in question. If I offended you, I am sorry.

However, I will never apologize for my reaction to Mauleed.

Posted By snooggums on 07/20/2006 12:43 PM

I too would take area gaming friend's opinions with a grain of salt but I would be watchful. As you are obviously biased in the guys favor you are also making judgement calls without being present based on your personal interactions.

Oh, well that's logical, Snoog.  Anybody who doesn't know the guy can't say anything because they don't know the guy.  Anybody who does know the guy, their opinions are automatically discounted because they know the guy.

I think this argument is loaded.

I met the guy and talked with him at length at times, he seems like a stand up person and I wouldn't have any qualms about playing him. But when you hear people speak of suspicious activity...especially from people you know that would never raise an issue ever, you know damn well you would lean forward and listen.

The hilarious thing is that you guys can't recognize that you keep saying "he seems like a nice guy, BUT..." over and over again in every post. Please let it drop.

@jfrazell. If the Chaos player was playing Black Legion then he could have any mark on his general. "They are always free to use any options in the list." CSM codex pg 44.

Darrian
(Black Legion)

Darrian13 thanks. I haven't thought about that issue in a long time and was uncertain. With the two badboy IC's, infiltrating instachosen et al this could be a reaosnable list against skimmers.


Back to topic.
Congrats Tau boy sounds like you had fun.

How did the chaos guy take down the skimmers. I had problems with a demon heavy list last year. Did the big IC's cause the damage or from shooting?

Gorgon: The point i was trying to make was that from where I sat, interacted, talked, etc with the guy there was no hint of weirdness/ foul play that I PERSONALLY witnessed. He was a friendly player and had a great looking army. But hearing people that are you know are true blue honest gamers that would NEVER raise an issue over anything, you know that you would listen to what they would have to say. Either way, I give the guy the benefit of the doubt and honor his win...which I did. I was one of the first to shake his hand and congratulate him.
Capt K

Hahahahahaha...

Well put, Ed (all of it). Here here.

Posted By Flavius Infernus on 07/20/2006 1:09 PM

Posted By snooggums on 07/20/2006 12:43 PM

I too would take area gaming friend's opinions with a grain of salt but I would be watchful. As you are obviously biased in the guys favor you are also making judgement calls without being present based on your personal interactions.

Oh, well that's logical, Snoog.  Anybody who doesn't know the guy can't say anything because they don't know the guy.  Anybody who does know the guy, their opinions are automatically discounted because they know the guy.

I think this argument is loaded.

Your reading comprehension has failed. Anyone who wasn't there only has the information provided in this thread to form an opinion. As they do not have first hand knowledge their opinion can be automatically discounted as hearsay. Mauleed's opinion can be discounted because he clearly stated that he knows the guys and knows for certain that he would never cheat. That is mauleed's opinion, not fact, and while he may be good at judgements it is possible that he was fooled or the guy changed from previous behavior out of some unknown influence. The person in question is a gamer, not a Supreme Court member who is beyond reproach.The only person in this thread who has testimony of the situation posted vague desctiptions of the events of some games and personal opinion of the person's behavior.

Simplified the only person identified as present was the thread starter who gave his opinion of the situation and only insinuated suspicion of that particular situation. Everything else is 3rd hand opinion.

@Snoogums: Agreed and that is why I chose to give the dude the benefit of the doubt and move on. Capt K

AHAHAHAHAH!!!

Did you just say Flavius's "Reading comprehension" failed!?!?!?!

As someone who knows him, let me be the first to say that that's f***ing PRICELESS!

My name is Peter de Florio, I'm a warmonger and I won the Necro. I also won best general in Baltimore and 2nd best general in Boston. I'd like to set the record straight. Not because I have too but because I want set a good example, as winners and vetean palyers should win gracefully.

I did not use loaded dice. After game five I was immediately apporached by the judges and and they asked me if I used loaded dice and I said no. They believed me because of the surprized look I had on my face. That said, I didn't want anybody to have any doubt in their mind so I asked them if they would check my dice just to set the record straight. They did and they concluded that there was no doubt in their mind that they were legitamate dice.

Now for the games, I'll keep it short.

Game 1: I played Sterling, one of my favorite opponents of all time. We was running the 3 monlithes and a C'tan. It was escalation and the monolithes never made it inot the table in time to be of any use. The game was over in 2 and a falf turns. He phased out. He basically had no monliths and no lord iwth a reserection orb. I had a Blood thirster iwth 6 S8 attacks on the charge, a deamon prince with 5+D6 S6 attacks on the charge, 8 blood letters with 24 S5 power weapon attacks on the charge and 2 aspiring champions with 11 power fist attacks between thed. Turn one my blood letters scattered 11 inches and that pretty much spelt the end of the necrons. 30 necrons is not hard to kill when they don;t get back up. REally fun game regardless, and it was all because of Sterling.

Game 2: Against Mike playing world eaters. I out deployed him and out charged him. I deployed in a long line and he followed suit. I was twice as fast as he was so I charge my entire army at half of his and kille done half and then the other. He never summoned on his deamons.
Game 3: Aainst Brian Fines, a general that I have infinate respect for. You could right a book about this 8 turn game, but the short version is that we both bet the farm on who ever rolled first turn. He rolled a 3 I rolled a 2. His first turn wiped out my chosen, which trapped the furies to never come out, kille d the blood thirster so he was unsatble and 7 or my 8 bikers. I managed to stay alive until turn two through some good saves on my part and some horrible rolling on his. He had deplyed all his foot troops to kill the core of my army, and my deamons cuaght them all on the ground. I basically kille dall his foot troopers and on 2 of his tanks. Both of which to shooting. We drew. He rolled bad, and I rolled well, and T5 in hth with any S3 army is always bad news in HTH. Brian till we meet again!!!

Game 4: Against Michael, who started this thread. Micahel has the unfourtune luck to drwa me on a mission were his deployment zone was 12" by 36". I had a very target rich enviroment. My plan was to try and force his fir warriors to deploy early so that everything would stay packe dtogether. the Plan worked. I pinned in both the flanks with my big deamons and sent everything else down the middle. Miachael playe dit very well using skimmers and drones to hinder my progress. I dropped almost all the skimmers with shooting. In one very bad turn of mine I sent in my big deamons againt skimmers with 6 attacks each. They both hit once and I rolled snake eye on both pentrating attacks with monsterous creatures!!! In the same turn I rolled a 1 and a 2 trying to charge my blood letters and came up an inch short in terrain. Teh following turn a sumunition round caused 6 wounds and I failed 5 3+ saves on my blood letters. Try doing that with loaded dice

Anyway, Michael I don't begrudge you, and I look forward to Tau winning a GT. My list had a lot more speed than your and it ended up dictating the pace of the match.

Game5 : Against Biel tann Eldar, the entire game was way to intense than it needed to be.. I mean this in the most sporting way possible, but you beat yourself.... The beil tann army was deployed in a long line across the deployement zone. Turn one I sent thefuries down the middle and they dropped 2 vypers in hth. 30 S5 attacks has a fairly good chance of doing that. The you took the bait. You unloaded everyone out of their transports and attacke the furies, clustering the entire army with assault range of all my deamons, powerfists, aspiring campions and big guys. Only a couple tanks fell at first. But you gave me a second chance and a third to do it over and over again. Yes, I did roll a little better than average. You should ahve scattered with the tanks, softerned up my army then attacked. Instead you left your troops out there to get slaughtered.

A word of advice, score person fairly in the last game. Then go tell a judge to check their dice. You chipmunked me in the championship game. The judges would have done that if they found that I was cheating. It was very bad form on your part. Especially, since you didn't just zero me on sports but also comp and painting, even after you said to your friend during the game it wasn't the list, it was the rolling.

I really had a great time in all the games, but the last, which was a little too intense and not fun enough. I get it though, if you though tyou were being cheated you thought you were being cheated.

All in all, I don't look back on this tournament and see that I was increadably lucky. I see that I had luck at important moments, and sometimes that's what really makes the difference. In all my games, I made a large bait gamble against evryone of my opponents and you all took it hook line and sinker. I'm telling you this not to be a dick but to impart some wisdom. Know the strengths of your army before you play them. Come up with a game plan and stick to the game plan.

Case and Point:

I'm not sure what anyone of you were thinking playing fragile skimmer lists and charging head first into Khorne heavy, hth based chaos army.
Sometimes it's not the arrows, it's the indians.

Pete Happens

Oh and Ed thanks for sticking for me buddy. Respect.

Thanks for setting the record straight and I congradulate you on your accomplishment. I apologize for any misunderstanding on any of our parts.

deFlo what did you use to take the skimmers? You note shooting but I only have a summary of your list. Are your Chosen units and bikes beefed out with short range SW's?