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A unit of assault marines is happily chewing through a large squad of firewarriors, when all of a sudden their devilfish comes over the ridge, scares the assault marines away, while the firewarriors embark into safety and the Tau gunline blows the surviving marines off the board.

I think a more likely scenario is that the Assault Marines pass their leadership test and on their following turn wipe out the Fire Warriors and punch great gaping holes in the Devilfish...

A unit of assault marines is happily chewing through a large squad of firewarriors, when all of a sudden their devilfish comes over the ridge, scares the assault marines away, while the firewarriors embark into safety and the Tau gunline blows the surviving marines off the board.

I think a more likely scenario is that the Assault Marines pass their leadership test and on their following turn wipe out the Fire Warriors and punch great gaping holes in the Devilfish...

Thing is Insaniak, that only if the assault marines stop the 'fish via DoG will they have a chance to kill the fish & firewarriors, even if they pass leadership they still have to give way and good positioning on the part of the tank shocker will move the marines out of HtH with the firewarriors.

That would require more than just good positioning of the tank... it also requires the marines to be in a position where such a thing is possible.

Frankly, I don't see it actually happening too often.

I don't know about that Insaniak, nothing about tank shock says you have to move forward, and although you would be exposing your side armor, doing a sideways tank shock would probably do the trick, especially because you can quite easily argue that you CAN move a skimmer over friendly models (although I acknowledge that you don't agree on that one, I think friendly models=obstructions is not a leap)

nothing about tank shock says you have to move forward

I am quite sure that you must move in a straight line in the direction you are facing. If someone with easier access to a BBoR could double check that? If not I will when I get home from work.

Straight Line and you can't turn but doesn't say it has to be forward. Seeing as you can move sideways, backwards or whatever in 40k world, you can tankshock any way you like.

Straight Line and you can't turn but doesn't say it has to be forward. Seeing as you can move sideways, backwards or whatever in 40k world, you can tankshock any way you like.

That is a horrendous view on it. Absolutely one of the grossest interpretations of a rule I have seen. Good on ya mate! hehhehehe

Actually I could see a skimmer being justified as rolling sideways but not a treaded ground tank. I believe that's why I thought that all tanks have to move forward in a straight line since not all tanks are skimmers.

 

Edit: Finished my thought

Fluff != Rules

What a horrible loop hole. The new tank shock FOF tactic. Tank shock to break units out of cc then rapid fire with fire warriors and the rest of your army. Makes a Ethereal worth taking for leadership purposes to prolong cc.
I could really see this being abusive with a mech tau FOF army.

What a horrible loop hole. The new tank shock FOF tactic. Tank shock to break units out of cc then rapid fire with fire warriors and the rest of your army. Makes a Ethereal worth taking for leadership purposes to prolong cc.
I could really see this being abusive with a mech tau FOF army.

So this would be a Tau army list WANTING to be in close combat?

Ok, I'll play it!!!

LOL, you do have to take in to consideration that you will most likely have to go through 3x combat to do this because you will most likely have to position your tank one turn of movement, and then do the tank shock the next seeing as tank shock very specifically prohibits moving over your own troops (which even if you can do in a skimmer, tank shock is more specific than that.

Then again, I usually have 3 or 4 tanks hanging around in the same area so there is a good chance a HH could do the tank shock, fish goes over and picks the doods up and then go from there.

I just went over the rules

  If you read any kind of rules for units in combat you will find that you can't affect them by outside influence. ie Fear of the Darkness power. Shooting rules. As they are usually too preoccupied with the swirling melee.  I can bet that the judges will lean toward the shooting into HTH as a guide. Your sportmanship would hit all time lows with this.

I dont think you will be able to tank shock guys out of combat. The rules for tank shock says that if they pass their leadership test then they simply move arround the tank. They can still stay engaged in the combat if they want to and there will be room to stay engagued because you cant cover all sides of the unit unless you have many tanks.

Failing the leadership test is a different story as they would simply run away. Prety usefull but not to reliable as most units dont fail to many tests.

I see what you are saying cypher, but you left out the part about "via the shortest distance possible" Meaning they can't run around to the back, and the side of a 'fish or HH covers a lot of ground.

thehod> I just went over the rules...   If you read any kind of rules for units in combat you will find that you can't affect them by outside influence. ie Fear of the Darkness power. Shooting rules. As they are usually too preoccupied with the swirling melee.  I can bet that the judges will lean toward

So, if you just went over the rules, did you find any that are relevant, want to make a case on that? Or is it just based on conjecture, and "feels like" units in CC can't be affected based on other rules?

theHod> Your sportmanship would hit all time lows with this.

I suppose it would, no one likes finding out they don't play by the rules, (read: marine players don't like finding out they don't have the advantage) usually they see it as your problem, not theirs if they are in that absolutist frame of mind.  Ironic that it could make playing by the rules unsporting? Funny that.

I am with the hod on this one. Consider if some designed an EC army with a good number of transports sporting warp amps. To me this argument sounds like a way to bend the rules. The rules do not specifically mention tank shocking units in close combat. I was under the impression that here you follow along the lines that just because the rules do not state you cannot do something does not necessarily mean that you can do it. This tactic comes across as sneaky.

@bloater, the thing is that the tank shock rules are pretty specific as what you can do and how you have to do it. Not being able to assault a unit in HTH is as specific as not being able to move over your own models so I don't see how the "doesn't say you can't so you can" argument applies here.

this is a funny topic considering i just found it AND was going to tank shock an assault marine squad with a rhino just some 3 hours ago

Nowhere in the rules I have I seen it stated you an tank shot enemy units. I am just saying...

Nowhere in the rules will you see it stated that you can shoot at nurglings, either.

It's simply allowed by the general rules of the game.

@insaniak

You have broken three rules of the road. I quote them here for your reference:

A-4. Offering Up Something That is Not a Rule as a Rule<?

What is a rule? This is an area where people commonly get confused. Rules are limited to:

? The Grey Tome (40K Main Rulebook/<?xml:namespace prefix = st1 /><st1:City><st1:place>Battle</st1:place></st1:City> of Macragge Rulebook)

? Army Codexes

? 40k V4 FAQs published on the website

? Anything with a Chapter Approved Stamp not marked Trial, Experimental, etc.

? Other Official Rulebooks

 

What isn?t a rule? Lots of things seem like rules, but really are not. Here?s some of them:

? Rulezboyz do not create rules. GW doesn't pay someone to be a "Rulezboy," they pay someone to stock shelves, or take phone orders. In their spare time they answer the Rulesboyz e-mail account. They're not experts on the rules. They're often wrong. And if you ask them the same question three or four times, it?s not unheard of to get three or four different answers. If your argument includes any reference to a Rulezboy, you?ve just refuted yourself. Redshirts (i.e. staff at GW stores) fall into this same category.

? Posts from the Eye of Terror (or any other forum on the Internet, for that matter) are not official. They?re interesting and there?s nothing wrong with following them in common practice, but they are not rules, regardless of the alleged source.

 

A-7. ?The rules don?t say I can?t!?
This is the most annoying argument ever made. If you?ve been forced to resort to it, your argument is immediately false. The rules don?t say I can?t place my models back on the board after you?ve killed them and use them next turn, but that doesn?t mean I can do it. The rules system is permissive: this means you may only do things you are expressly allowed to do or that the rules imply you can do. You are not allowed to do anything else.

 

A-9. Committing a Logical Fallacy
A logical fallacy is an error in reasoning. Basically, if an argument includes a logical fallacy, the premises do not support the conclusion reached. Some logical fallacies are specified above, but using any logical fallacy will weaken and facilitate the refutation of your argument. For more information on logical fallacies, here are some websites that examine them in greater detail.

Read them and commit them to memory.

And in regards to your statement about shooting at nurglings... why be such an arse? There is a whole section of the rules under Shooting that explains how to do so. It is all in black and white.

And in regards to your statement about shooting at nurglings... why be such an arse? There is a whole section of the rules under Shooting that explains how to do so. It is all in black and white.

Have you read the rest of this thread? Seriously?

Read my first post. And yeah I have read the whole thread.

Read my first post. And yeah I have read the whole thread.

See I don't think you have because you made a very BIG error on what Insaniak was saying.

Edit: I removed the part that was me being a jerk.

Let's stay on topic and keep our focus.

This low blow tactic along with shooting an Ordinance template on a squad that is next to a close combat (I wonder who's team did that?) is not fun any way what so ever and that basically violates the #1 rule in 40K: Have Fun.

Now you might say that you are not having fun getting in HtH and getting your face smashed in but that is more on the fact of luck, poor deployment, bad tactics, and mission. Some of which you can do but others that are out of your reach.

Posted By Augustus on 08/16/2006 2:47 PM

I suppose it would, no one likes finding out they don't play by the rules, (read: marine players don't like finding out they don't have the advantage) usually they see it as your problem, not theirs if they are in that absolutist frame of mind.  Ironic that it could make playing by the rules unsporting? Funny that.

It's not that players don't like finding out that they are not playing by the rules, but instead that there opponent is "playing by the rules" or those percieved through obvious errors. I am not saying that you can not tank shock into combat, nor am I saying you can, but the fact that an opponent would use very ambiguous interpretations to win a game is what causes low soft scores. I know you Damian for a fact can appreciate soft scores. 40k is a game of politcs. You have your battle scores, and your soft scores. Loop holes like these help battle scores, but also have a detrimental effect on soft scores.

And in regards to your statement about shooting at nurglings... why be such an arse? There is a whole section of the rules under Shooting that explains how to do so.

Yes there is. And oh, look! There's a whole section of the rules under Tank Shock that explains how to do that...

Since you don't appear to have actually read the thread, here's a summary:

The general rules for Tank Shock make it possible to Tank Shock a unit in close combat, so long as your tank doesn't move over your own troops. Nothing in either the Tank Shock or Close Combat rules specifically prohibits this, which means that the rules that say how you can perform a Tank Shock apply as normal.

This low blow tactic along with shooting an Ordinance template on a squad that is next to a close combat (I wonder who's team did that?) is not fun any way what so ever and that basically violates the #1 rule in 40K: Have Fun.

And therein lies the problem with that rule. YOU don't think it's fun. That doesn't mean that everyone else feels the same...

A lot of people seem to assume that anything they don't personally consider 'fun' should automatically be ignored, based on the page 5 rule that says that the 'fun' is the most important thing... which is a misreading of that rule.

All that page 5 is saying is that both players should be playing for the same reason. That means finding an opponent who feels similarly about the way the game should be played... NOT that you should just be able to disregard anything you personally don't like, since that is not necessarily 'fun' for your opponent if they happen to like that particular rule.

Implying the rules for shooting justifies tank shocking enemy units in close combat just does not cut it. That is just my opinion though.