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Come on, Deamonhunters need every advantage they can get. Stop trying to say your wraith gets a save against a psycannon- it doesn't.

Just a query: The psycannon rules say only armour saves apply, not invunerable saves. Can you still get a cover save from a hit with a psycannon? Can you still take a feel no pain save?

Posted By burnthexenos on 08/26/2006 8:54 PM
Come on, Deamonhunters need every advantage they can get. Stop trying to say your wraith gets a save against a psycannon- it doesn't.

Just a query: The psycannon rules say only armour saves apply, not invunerable saves. Can you still get a cover save from a hit with a psycannon? Can you still take a feel no pain save?

Yeah, we've been through this one.  Psycannons do ignore cover saves too, stupid as it is.  But them's the RAW, oversight or not.  And FNP isn't a saving throw, so you can take it (assuming you're T4 or greater).

uhm forgive my ignorance but what leads you to believe a psycannon ignores cover saves?

its 1 not a template weapon (template weapons are the only ones that ignore cover saves not blast weapons and its not even a blast weapon either) and 2 it says it only ignores invo saves it never states it ignores cover saves so im going to say i dont think you are correct now if you can show where it does say it then ill be happy to say im wrong

"Only armor saves are allowed against a Psycannon."

That bit of superfluous language is what does it. They could have said that it ignores invulnerable saves and left it at that. But they had to go the extra mile, and in doing so, they decided, accidentally or not, that only armor saves are permitted against a psycannon.

Posted By Ghaz on 08/26/2006 6:13 PM

Posted By TheGreatAvatar on 08/26/2006 6:00 PM
And where is these stated? The statline for the Wraith states the Wraiths have a 3+ save.

And the Phase Shift rule clarifies that this is an Invulnerable save.  Where does it state that it must be an Armor save if it's listed in the profile?  It does not.  So far you've yet to prove that a Wraith does have an Armor save.

No it doesn't.  It states the Wraiths get a 3+ inv.  It doesn't state the save in the state line is invulnerable. From the Codex: Necron page 19:

Phase Shift:  Because they can phase in and out as the move, Wraiths have a 3+ invulnerable save....

The text doesn't say the inv save replaces the normal save or the save in the statline is for an inv save.  It says they have an inv save.  The statline show a normal save and the Special Rules section says they also have an inv save.

You're reaching. the Necron Wraith's Save is an invulnerable save.
And where is these stated? The statline for the Wraith states the Wraiths have a 3+ save.

Ghaz already says it. Phase shifter says it's invulnerable and then the codex sums it up in the "Summary" that it is indeed invulnerable, just in case you missed the Phase Shifter rule. And the 3+ Inv on bike is a really good example.

Posted By TheGreatAvatar on 08/26/2006 10:21 PM

The statline show a normal save and the Special Rules section says they also have an inv save.

Incorrect.  The statline shows a 3+ save and the special rules says that they have an invulnerable save, not that they also have an invulnerable save.  That save might refer to the aforementioned save or it might not.  But it's certainly not specified as "in addition to," although it could mean it.  Regardless, you can't add "also" to the definition.  It's just dishonest.

there is a problem with this

"Only armor saves are allowed against a Psycannon."

you cannot assume that the psycannon negates cover saves it does not say it does thus it doesnt.. you cannot assume it does based on that

only weapons that are template based can do that and the psycannon is neither of those
you will get cover saves from them the rule book is very clear on that and as the rule book is a newer printing im afarid your theory wont fly

and unless you can produce official documentation stating otherwise im afraid that cover saves work

there is a problem with this

"Only armor saves are allowed against a Psycannon."

you cannot assume that the psycannon negates cover saves it does not say it does thus it doesnt.. you cannot assume it does based on that

only weapons that are template based can do that and the psycannon is neither of those
you will get cover saves from them the rule book is very clear on that and as the rule book is a newer printing im afarid your theory wont fly

and unless you can produce official documentation stating otherwise im afraid that cover saves work

there is a problem with this

"Only armor saves are allowed against a Psycannon."

you cannot assume that the psycannon negates cover saves it does not say it does thus it doesnt.. you cannot assume it does based on that

only weapons that are template based can do that and the psycannon is neither of those
you will get cover saves from them  the rule book is very clear on that and as the rule book is a newer printing im afaid your theory wont fly

and unless you can produce official documentation stating otherwise im afraid that cover saves work

Posted By The Drop Zone on 08/26/2006 11:18 PM

and unless you can produce official documentation stating otherwise im afraid that cover saves work

And you claim that you own a wargaming store?

yes i do

and right now all your spewing is your opinion unproven by fact

and i can also read the rule book and understand what it says in the language i speak which is a bit more than i can say for you right now

 

and your response is typical for someone who cant back up his post and resorts to insults

Posted By bigchris1313 on 08/26/2006 10:29 PM

Incorrect.  The statline shows a 3+ save and the special rules says that they have an invulnerable save, not that they also have an invulnerable save.  That save might refer to the aforementioned save or it might not.  But it's certainly not specified as "in addition to," although it could mean it. 

That makes no sense.  What's the save for a Necron Warrior?  3+. Why, becase the state line page 18 for the Warriors states as such.  The same hold true for the Wraiths.  If the state line for the Wraith was "-" then, I agree, there is no armour save.  However, there IS a valuel  And that value is 3+.

The Phase Shift  special rule states the Wraith has an invulnerable save and that's all it says.  It certainly doesn't clarify nor imply  the the inv save replaces or supersedes the normal save confered by the state line.  And, yes, the summary does indicate an invulnerabe save just as it indicates a normal save.

Posted By TheGreatAvatar on 08/27/2006 8:33 AM

Posted By bigchris1313 on 08/26/2006 10:29 PM

Incorrect.  The statline shows a 3+ save and the special rules says that they have an invulnerable save, not that they also have an invulnerable save.  That save might refer to the aforementioned save or it might not.  But it's certainly not specified as "in addition to," although it could mean it. 

That makes no sense.  What's the save for a Necron Warrior?  3+. Why, becase the state line page 18 for the Warriors states as such.  The same hold true for the Wraiths.  If the state line for the Wraith was "-" then, I agree, there is no armour save.  However, there IS a valuel  And that value is 3+.

The Phase Shift  special rule states the Wraith has an invulnerable save and that's all it says.  It certainly doesn't clarify nor imply  the the inv save replaces or supersedes the normal save confered by the state line.  And, yes, the summary does indicate an invulnerabe save just as it indicates a normal save.

ok what sense does it make that they have a 3+ and a 3+ invo save seems pretty stupid dont you think ?

have you bothered to email gw and ask for a ruling?

i have and i know what they will tell you

wraiths are toast with a psycannon.. just like your toast if you go 18 inches on a bike.. i dont have to like it but those are their official rules

Posted By The Drop Zone on 08/26/2006 11:18 PM

there is a problem with this

"Only armor saves are allowed against a Psycannon."

you cannot assume that the psycannon negates cover saves it does not say it does thus it doesnt.. you cannot assume it does based on that

only weapons that are template based can do that and the psycannon is neither of those
you will get cover saves from them  the rule book is very clear on that and as the rule book is a newer printing im afaid your theory wont fly

and unless you can produce official documentation stating otherwise im afraid that cover saves work

You must have a strange definition of the word 'only' then.

"i have and i know what they will tell you"

which time? try asking them several times. then you can put all of their

answers in a hat and pick one.


"and unless you can produce official documentation stating otherwise im afraid that cover saves work"

and who died and made you the "Decider"?

"Only armor saves are allowed against a Psycannon."

seeing how it says armor save, not cover and armor save, i'm going with the bigchris on this one.

who made me the decider?

the rulebook did

the rulebook says template weapons and template weapons are the only things that ignore cover saves

where does it say a psycannon ignores cover saves? provide me with page number and text or forget it!

ill even  back up my claim i challenge you to do so

page 31 Template weapons

.....they are indicated by the word template in their description....where does it say psycannons are template weapons.... anywhere.... anyone?... it also goes on to say and i quote again....Because template weapons bathe the area with burning fuel, baneull energies, or something equally as dangerous, COVER SAVES are ignored when resolving hits...  now as this rule only applies to template weapons and the psycannon is not a template weapon you do not get the rule that ignores cover saves.. if it doesnt say it you dont get it

 

now as the rule book is a 2004 printing and the demonhunter codex is 2003 printing the rule book is the newer printing and by gw own policey, the newer printing supercedes all previous issues

thats not my rule thats theirs

 

you dont like it too bad.. learn to live with it

the judge finds you have insuffient grounds for your case... case closed......NEXT!!!!!!

If anything, DakkaDakka proves that we will never break new, innovative ground with 40k rules disputes. The same stuff keeps showing up over and over and over again.

Posted By The Drop Zone on 08/27/2006 10:56 AM

where does it say a psycannon ignores cover saves? provide me with page number and text or forget it!

ill even  back up my claim i challenge you to do so

We already have.  You just choose to ignore it.

 

Just because a template weapon ignores cover saves does not mean that other weapons can't as well.

Posted By skyth on 08/27/2006 11:04 AM

Posted By The Drop Zone on 08/27/2006 10:56 AM

where does it say a psycannon ignores cover saves? provide me with page number and text or forget it!

ill even  back up my claim i challenge you to do so

We already have.  You just choose to ignore it.

 

Just because a template weapon ignores cover saves does not mean that other weapons can't as well.

We already have.  You just choose to ignore it.... where? what page number? where does it say it ignores cover saves? if it doesnt say those exact words you dont get that ability it doesnt say it and you know it

 

Just because a template weapon ignores cover saves does not mean that other weapons can't as well..

thats very true but if they do ignore cover saves they state they do the psycannon doesnt say it does...thus you dont get it period.. you cannot assume you get anything in this game if it doesnt say it.. i hate it that it is that way as i happen to agree with you it SHOULD but until they states it does i have to go with what is written

nice try.. but no

So what is your definition of the word 'only' then?

i dont have to have a dfinition of the word only

the rulebook supercedes that codex

the rulebook says what is allowed and what isnt the rb says only template weapons ignore cover saves

sorry but no

Posted By TheGreatAvatar on 08/26/2006 10:21 PM
No it doesn't.  It states the Wraiths get a 3+ inv.  It doesn't state the save in the state line is invulnerable. From the Codex: Necron page 19:

Phase Shift:  Because they can phase in and out as the move, Wraiths have a 3+ invulnerable save....

The text doesn't say the inv save replaces the normal save or the save in the statline is for an inv save.  It says they have an inv save.  The statline show a normal save and the Special Rules section says they also have an inv save.

And once again, you've failed to prove that the 3+ in the profile is referring to anything other than the Phase Shift rule.

The Drop Zone: the rule book does NOT say that template weapons are the only weapons that ignore cover. It says that all template weapons ignore cover.

 

See the difference?

 

If I were to say that all cats have furr that is true (well, except those really ugly ones). Does that mean that since dogs are not cats that they do not have furr?

there are three types of save: Armor, invulnerable, cover. The psycannon says the only one of the three that is allowed is armor. The new rule book does NOT over-rule this. It is never noted. However, you would be correct if, and only if, the rulebook stated that ONLY template weapons ignore cover, which it does not.

ok i see your point

however,since cover saves are not affected by a weapons str or ap value they are not considered in wether or not a weapon negates the cover save

the only reference to any weapon overriding the cover save is a template weapon.. see the difference? if a weapon has the ability to negate a cover save it specifically spells out it does in every occasion there are other weapns that do i jus cant recall them off the top of my head

 

i give you specifically....now i am trying to remember here off the top of my head.. the vindicare assassin.. his sniper rifle or just his ability by itself says it negates cover saves.... thats the whole point of this you can not in any circumstance assume your weapons or abilities get anything extra if it doesnt say it does

and in this case the psycannon does not in any way say it ignores cover saves, and ill repeat this again cover saves are not dependant on the weapon cover saves are given always always always unless specifically stated they are not allowed by the weapon or wargear .

 

those arent my rules thats what has been posted by gw for along time.. ill have to go back and check the chapter approved rulings but thats where they come from.. not only that but that was the ruling at the Atlanta games day  this year

 

and that combined with what gw has printed and has emailed consistently is the proof i have to follow this stance

Posted By whitedragon on 08/27/2006 10:56 AM
If anything, DakkaDakka proves that we will never break new, innovative ground with 40k rules disputes. The same stuff keeps showing up over and over and over again.

QFT.

I'd have to say I agree with The Drop Zone to a point on this.  If the psycannon rule really does just state that "only armor saves are allowed against a psycannon", then I think it really only applies to armor saves versus invulnerable saves, and that cover saves would be allowed as normal as they are a special kind of rule that is introduced when a unit is in cover.

By claiming that psycannons ignore cover saves as well, then you are taking the diehard meaning of "only armor saves are allowed against a psycannon".  If you do that, then you also don't get bionics rolls against psycannons, you can't take morale tests against psycannons, you can't get feel no pain rolls against psycannons, etc.  This would contradict with those rules, because you can take a bionics roll if it doesn't cause instant death, same with feel no pain rolls. 

Edit:  Checked up the rules for psycannon in the wargear book, "Only Armour Saves may be taken against a psycannon, Invulnerable Saves may not be taken."  I think this strengthens the argument that you get cover saves, bionics rolls, feel no pain rolls, etc. against psycannons. 

And to get back on topic, in the same wargear book it does indeed say wraiths have an armor save of '-', I'd say it's pretty obvious they go down to psycannons like butta.

- Oaka

The reason I ask is because the incinerator has the same wording, but goes on to say it also ignores cover saves. The psycannon doesn't. But "only armour saves" is pretty definite, and the incinerator could just mention that to remind us its a template weapon, I suppose.

This actually makes psycannons alright against non MEQ.

Posted By Ghaz on 08/27/2006 1:37 PM

And once again, you've failed to prove that the 3+ in the profile is referring to anything other than the Phase Shift rule.

You're kidding me, right.  Every single model in the codex is listed with an armor save.  The fact the codex DOES NOT specifictly identify the invulnerable save replaces is the proof.  The Wraiths have an armor save due to the stat listed in the profile.  The Special Rule Phase Shift grants the Wraiths an inv save.

1.  The profile details the Wriath as having an armor save 3+.
2.  The Phase Shift special rule detail the Wraith as having an inv save 3+.
3.  There is nothing in the codex that substitues, replaces, or supersedes the Wraiths armor save with the invulnerable save.
4.  The summary page just lists the Wraith has having an invulnerable save..


Now, where's the prove the invulnerable save replaces the armor save?